RobbieTheWagner 
Charles William Carpenter III 
Adam Argyle [00:00:00] Intro: Welcome to Syntax. Welcome to a brand new episode of the Front End Happy Hour podcast. Welcome to this week’s JS Party. Live from Ship Shape Studios, this is Whiskey Web and Whatnot. With your hosts, Robbie the Wagner, and me, Charles William Carpenter III. That’s right Charles. We drink whiskey and talk about web development.
[00:00:27] Intro: I mean, it’s all in the name. It’s not that deep. This is Whiskey Web and Whatnot. Do not adjust your set.
[00:00:36] Robbie Wagner: Hey, what’s up everybody? This is Whiskey Webb and whatnot. With your hosts, Robbie, the Wagner, and back by popular demand. Charles William
[00:00:46] Robbie Wagner: Carpenter
[00:00:47] Robbie Wagner: iii.
[00:00:47] Chuck Carpenter: All three of the votes that brought me back. Like I, how can I say no? So, uh, here it is, it’s, I’ve been adjusting, I’ve been going through some [00:01:00] changes, um, but we can talk about that later. Nothing too obvious right now.
[00:01:08] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, the, um, I don’t know why, but like the high pitched voice makes you sound more country
[00:01:14] Chuck Carpenter: Oh, okay. Yeah. I wonder if, when I hear myself in that voice, uh, if it, it gives me a little
[00:01:21] Robbie Wagner: Yeah.
[00:01:22] Chuck Carpenter: to say.
[00:01:24] Chuck Carpenter: Thanks for, thanks for begging me back. Uh, I know you’ve had to tolerate Adam for a little while now, and you know, I’m sorry for that, but, uh, here it is. It only makes you appreciate me more.
[00:01:36] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. Adam is, uh, I don’t know, doing a bunch of conferences. So you’ll see him again at some
[00:01:42] Chuck Carpenter: busy fellow.
[00:01:43] Chuck Carpenter: So, uh, I, I forget a little about the format, but I think we start with booze.
[00:01:48] Robbie Wagner: I think so, yeah.
[00:01:50] Chuck Carpenter: Okay. sometimes the same, sometimes different. Same. Same, but different.
[00:01:54] Robbie Wagner: But yes, we have Jack Daniels
[00:01:56] Robbie Wagner: possibly the same thing, but
[00:01:58] Robbie Wagner: different.
[00:01:59] Chuck Carpenter: single barrel [00:02:00] rye. , Mine is 45%. 90 proof though. And yours would be the barrel proof. Single
[00:02:07] Robbie Wagner: mine is 65% or 130
[00:02:10] Robbie Wagner: proof.
[00:02:11] Chuck Carpenter: You’re gonna be drunk real
[00:02:12] Robbie Wagner: spicy.
[00:02:13] Chuck Carpenter: I know it’s a 70%, , rye heavy mash bill, but I couldn’t find any details beyond that given I purchased this in the country of Italia.
[00:02:22] Chuck Carpenter: I am doubtful that it is the same single barrel, but the same idea, right? Same mash bill and all of that.
[00:02:29] Chuck Carpenter: Actually haven’t had decent whiskey in a little while, I think. , Gin cocktails and wine of course. And amato’s. let’s see if the palate’s still there.
[00:02:40] Robbie Wagner: Yeah.
[00:02:41] Robbie Wagner: I didn’t write a toast.
[00:02:43] Robbie Wagner: Forgot that,
[00:02:43] Robbie Wagner: We do that
[00:02:44] Robbie Wagner: now.
[00:02:44] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. Oh, you do that, you do
[00:02:46] Robbie Wagner: We’ve been doing it pretty regularly. Yeah.
[00:02:49] Chuck Carpenter: I’ve listened to a couple. I’m very busy. I have many leather bound books. I have shelves that smell of rich formica. Hmm. [00:03:00] Has a brown. Brown,
[00:03:02] Robbie Wagner: so,
[00:03:02] Robbie Wagner: woody.
[00:03:02] Chuck Carpenter: yeah. woody.
[00:03:03] Chuck Carpenter: I was gonna say this kind of has a little brown sugar to it for me.
[00:03:09] Robbie Wagner: I don’t know why, but I feel like I’m smelling the slightest amount of
[00:03:13] Robbie Wagner: blueberries.
[00:03:14] Chuck Carpenter: Hmm. Because it burned your nostrils. Mine doesn’t
[00:03:17] Chuck Carpenter: have quite that problem. Yeah. I get like kind of a brown butter.
[00:03:22] Robbie Wagner: Ah hmm.
[00:03:24] Chuck Carpenter: hmm. Smooth bananas, little bananas in mine. Little like brown sugar, bananas, creme
[00:03:33] Robbie Wagner: Um, definitely got some little bit of your typical rye spice. A little bit of licorice.
[00:03:38] Chuck Carpenter: Hmm.
[00:03:39] Robbie Wagner: I dunno. Let’s try again.
[00:03:40] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. One wonders if we have the same, yeah, mine has some like rye, just peppery rye on the finish, but definitely sweet in the start.
[00:03:56] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. Mine is almost like savory, like a french [00:04:00] onion
[00:04:00] Robbie Wagner: soup.
[00:04:01] Chuck Carpenter: okay. Yeah. so does seem somewhat different. , But yeah, so mine for a rye leans towards the sweeter.
[00:04:10] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. It isn’t as spicy as a rye could be, but,
[00:04:13] Robbie Wagner: um, I have enough info to rate this, I think. Do you remember our scale?
[00:04:17] Chuck Carpenter: , I believe it is, two to three elephants or something. Um,
[00:04:22] Chuck Carpenter: yes.
[00:04:23] Robbie Wagner: They’re, uh, African elephants though, not
[00:04:25] Robbie Wagner: Asian elephants.
[00:04:26] Chuck Carpenter: Which are bigger.
[00:04:27] Robbie Wagner: Is that a question or
[00:04:28] Robbie Wagner: a
[00:04:28] Robbie Wagner: statement
[00:04:29] Chuck Carpenter: Which are bigger. Oh, I see. No. Which of those two are the larger,
[00:04:35] Robbie Wagner: question mark? I’m not sure. I know African elephants’ ears are much bigger. Um, so I’m guessing African elephants are
[00:04:41] Robbie Wagner: bigger.
[00:04:42] Chuck Carpenter: Okay. I don’t know. I didn’t know the answer to that. okay folks, so it is zero to eight tentacles, so nine potential options you could choose here. Zero being spitted out, dump it down. Not worth cleaning your toilets with, eight being, [00:05:00] it’s amazing. Clear the shelves for middle of the road. Not so bad, not so great.
[00:05:05] Chuck Carpenter: Take it away, Robert.
[00:05:07] Robbie Wagner: All right. Yeah, it is, um, not great for a rye. ‘cause I typically like a rye. It’s not bad, but it’s, um, I think I could be, , getting a bad opinion because it’s just so hot. Like I can’t really taste the flavors at all. I’m gonna say
[00:05:24] Robbie Wagner: for it’s
[00:05:25] Robbie Wagner: right middle of the
[00:05:26] Chuck Carpenter: Right middle of the road. Have you considered adding an ice cube? Possibly water it down. Maybe it’ll get
[00:05:30] Chuck Carpenter: it
[00:05:30] Robbie Wagner: I could, but then I would have to go to another room
[00:05:34] Robbie Wagner: and,
[00:05:35] Robbie Wagner: yeah.
[00:05:35] Chuck Carpenter: for this sort of yeah.
[00:05:38] Chuck Carpenter: it’s not a stringent process per se. Hmm. I’m given another swing. Yeah. It’s very mild, pretty mellow for me at 90 proof and not having had a lot of whiskey in a while. I am gonna say I’m a little underwhelmed of its dryness. , It’s a little too smooth. , Has some interesting flavors though, in terms of [00:06:00] rise. I don’t remember how much it was.
[00:06:02] Chuck Carpenter: I do like to take price into consideration. , I feel like not too crazy. Let’s say 40 euros, give or take, probably like in the 50 to $60 range has a nice looking bottle. I think if I was to pay 50 or 60 bucks for this. I’d feel like I could do better in that price point and get a richer flavor profile.
[00:06:22] Chuck Carpenter: So I’m kind of with you like it’s not bad and it’s not great, but like it’s easy and doesn’t have bad flavor, so it is sip. So yeah, I feel like I’m about at a four with it.
[00:06:37] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, I feel like we’re gonna have to start taking into account like just availability. Like can you get it? That makes it rated
[00:06:46] Robbie Wagner: higher.
[00:06:47] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, seriously. I can get something shipped. With notice, I guess, like, but the, yeah, I’m definitely the challenge of like, what can you get in a Virginia a, b, [00:07:00] C store that also happens to ship. I haven’t really ventured out of town to look for whiskey too much either. so like there are a couple of interesting shops that I still wanna check here.
[00:07:11] Chuck Carpenter: And Milan has, you know, it’s a big city. It has a lot more stuff, unless we just, yeah. Yes, yes. I only learned that like two weeks ago, which is hilarious. , I’m just not dialed into the Olympic, uh, yeah, I have never been to an Olympics. Never
[00:07:29] Robbie Wagner: Are you gonna
[00:07:30] Robbie Wagner: go
[00:07:30] Robbie Wagner: to this one since it’s
[00:07:31] Robbie Wagner: close?
[00:07:32] Chuck Carpenter: Maybe, I mean, I’m not saying no. I’ll probably have to look into it a little bit more, but it would be kind of cool.
[00:07:38] Chuck Carpenter: I’m more likely to go to this Olympics than I am now. This would be interesting to the World Cup next year. Which is in the United States. ‘cause I started looking at tickets and it is
[00:07:50] Chuck Carpenter: insane. So I’m like, I don’t know. You know, like,
[00:07:54] Robbie Wagner: I’m surprised I would even do it in the us I feel like that would be just more
[00:07:58] Robbie Wagner: expensive for everyone, for [00:08:00] like no
[00:08:00] Robbie Wagner: benefit.
[00:08:00] Chuck Carpenter: right. Yeah. Well, yeah, I don’t know the reasons why, but I mean, it was in Qatar, the last one, Russia before that, and then before that was Brazil. so I don’t know, bringing it back to, yeah.
[00:08:19] Robbie Wagner: I assume it’s like, , like the Olympics where you have to like
[00:08:21] Robbie Wagner: plan
[00:08:21] Robbie Wagner: it decades ahead
[00:08:23] Robbie Wagner: of time
[00:08:23] Chuck Carpenter: Oh Yeah.
[00:08:24] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. They, they award well in advance, so, that’s definitely part of it. And like some places, like the 2034 is Saudi Arabia, I wanna say. And like, so they are building, and, and they’ve done this in many places. Brazil, like built a bunch of new stadiums. Qatar had to like, create new cities, like whole new cities.
[00:08:46] Chuck Carpenter: ‘cause they didn’t, most of it was undeveloped.
[00:08:49] Robbie Wagner: Yeah.
[00:08:50] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. Yeah. So, I don’t know. We will see. But uh, the Olympics, yeah, that could be fun.
[00:08:56] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. If we didn’t have tiny babies, I [00:09:00] would consider coming over and checking it out, but, uh, yeah, not, not
[00:09:03] Robbie Wagner: gonna be for me this
[00:09:04] Chuck Carpenter: Not this time.
[00:09:05] Chuck Carpenter: 2030. I don’t know where it’s gonna be, but not
[00:09:08] Chuck Carpenter: here. You could try it
[00:09:10] Chuck Carpenter: out. I mean, they probably know. We just don’t know
[00:09:13] Chuck Carpenter: ‘cause we don’t look into those kinds of
[00:09:14] Chuck Carpenter: things.
[00:09:15] Robbie Wagner: Something you do look into though,
[00:09:18] Robbie Wagner: SOC two Compliance.
[00:09:19] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. I wish there was only one sock. But there’s two of them and there are so many little things. Here’s the interesting thing about it is that there, it’s, it’s basically a statement of like company maturity.
[00:09:34] Chuck Carpenter: Because when you start something, you just want it to work, right? And, , so you do a lot of things and probably skip a lot of steps because it’s important to make it work. And then when you want the someone outside of that system to be like, no, no, no, you follow all of these compliance checks and you do things the right way and you have a plan for every little [00:10:00] possible disaster.
[00:10:01] Chuck Carpenter: I do not have a plan for every possible little disaster it turns out. And I also do not have things like. You know, S3 buckets not publicly accessible and only accessible through things that have the correct permission set up for them. Either your website in the background, API, does the signing, grabbing of the asset, and then streaming it.
[00:10:25] Chuck Carpenter: Or you use smart things like CDNs and not the short and and fast way. So I’ve been going through a lot of that lately.
[00:10:35] Chuck Carpenter: Or, you know, you need to set up something, you have direct access to versel without , two factor or multi, you know, , two FA or MFA. You go sign directly into the AWS console to spin something up.
[00:10:49] Chuck Carpenter: All bad things. These are all bad things. , And then having to fix them is all very annoying. And that has been a lot of what I’ve been doing lately.
[00:10:58] Robbie Wagner: yeah. I haven’t done a [00:11:00] ton with them. I know that we’ve done it at a few companies I’ve been at, but, you know, security in general and like permissions is a big problem everywhere because like. I just did a bunch of courses at IBM ‘cause everybody makes you do ‘em that like, Hey, what is the right way to do this?
[00:11:15] Robbie Wagner: Should you give everyone like pseudo permissions to everything? Or should you just give them the amount of permissions they need to do their job at the time? And like, hopefully they revoke themselves. Like when they don’t need them or whatever. And I’m like, I know the right answer here, but like, the easy one is that like, ‘cause then everybody’s asking you all the time for like all these little things.
[00:11:35] Robbie Wagner: so then you need like another product that manages the permissions or whatever and like,
[00:11:39] Chuck Carpenter: yeah.
[00:11:40] Robbie Wagner: yeah, it’s a mess.
[00:11:42] Chuck Carpenter: No, no. You just need, uh, cloud code and, , just log into your administrator account and let it do what it needs to do. Pretty simple as that. Just, Hey, I need this
[00:11:53] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. It doesn’t make
[00:11:54] Robbie Wagner: mistakes.
[00:11:55] Chuck Carpenter: No, no, totally fine. , I have found a couple of [00:12:00] sessions lately when you, I got into a good groove and I literally was like, would paste a, a new line of instruction and it would go and like add a permission, deploy a thing, do my commit message with my get moji style and push that.
[00:12:19] Chuck Carpenter: Like I, I
[00:12:20] Robbie Wagner: That’s a, little heavy
[00:12:21] Robbie Wagner: handed.
[00:12:22] Chuck Carpenter: I had a good flow the other day where I had been working for a while and it was like, plan, adjust, plan, adjust, plan, adjust. Okay, now we’re gonna go into build, do just this scope of thing. And then like things started working. And then basically like the last couple hours of my day, it was just like, oh yeah, okay, well I need this also.
[00:12:39] Chuck Carpenter: Cool. And it just, it was amazing. It took a while to get there and obviously it. It doesn’t mean the next time I pick up the tool, I get the same. But I did hit one of those points where I was like, oh, we’re jamming okay. And we’re not hitting any limits, and I’m not having you fix the same thing 16 times.
[00:12:58] Chuck Carpenter: And then, oh, you know, [00:13:00] now the context is too long. And, you know, all, all those things, nothing happened and it actually worked and I just
[00:13:05] Robbie Wagner: Nice.
[00:13:07] Chuck Carpenter: It was, it was
[00:13:08] Chuck Carpenter: great.
[00:13:09] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, I’ve been using, uh, open code a good bit it works pretty well with Claude, but like every so often, ‘cause I have the like unlimited token or whatever, it just stops working. ‘cause I think it’s pausing you just like it would do in chat if you’re chatting too much. , But it doesn’t say anything about it being paused.
[00:13:27] Robbie Wagner: It’s just like working, working, working, working. And I’m like, you’re not
[00:13:29] Robbie Wagner: working. I
[00:13:30] Robbie Wagner: know you’re not.
[00:13:31] Chuck Carpenter: It’s now it’s
[00:13:32] Chuck Carpenter: been eight minutes.
[00:13:33] Robbie Wagner: I switched to Grok for like a minute. To like try like, I was like, I’m gonna use this until like I can use the other one again. And the first couple things that I did with it, it was very similar.
[00:13:44] Robbie Wagner: It was like, , you know, here’s 80,000 paragraphs about what I’m doing and like, this is why it’s good. just kind of writing some code, not committing stuff, just being like, here’s a few changes and like, whatever. And then I think it got like mad at [00:14:00] me ‘cause it was like, it was doing a bunch of YAML and getting it wrong because like, the indentation is hard I guess.
[00:14:06] Robbie Wagner: it would do like seven indentations, which I think is never valid. Doesn’t it always have to be increments of two or do they still have to be the same? I don’t
[00:14:12] Robbie Wagner: know.
[00:14:13] Chuck Carpenter: I mean it depends right when you’re changing context, but I think it is increments at two. ‘cause I
[00:14:18] Robbie Wagner: That’s what I thought. So I’m like, why do you keep making it like one less than where all the other ones are? so I basically told it like, fuck you, bro, stop doing that. And then it started being short with me and like, like not, and then it just auto started committing everything. It was like, not gonna talk to me.
[00:14:35] Robbie Wagner: And it just like, I committed this, I pushed it up, I pushed a tag so it’ll build for you. And I was like, no, bro, fuck you don’t do that.
[00:14:41] Robbie Wagner: Like,
[00:14:42] Chuck Carpenter: wow. See, you gotta get out of that build agent. I keep it in plan agent a lot where it has to ask permissions for everything. And I want very explicit, like, this is what’s gonna happen. And also, I’ve kind of defaulted to the GitHub gooey now because it’s very easy [00:15:00] for me to review change sets. So it’s just like, oh yeah, I know I was super cool and only in the terminal and I know the commands and blah, blah, blah.
[00:15:08] Chuck Carpenter: But I moved to the gooey just so I could see everything in that nice format before I push up and, you know, or say things are okay. So, I wanted to, to give that to you ‘cause I think I’ve given you shit for at least a couple years and now I found a great use case.
[00:15:25] Chuck Carpenter: , So you haven’t tried Big Pickle.
[00:15:26] Robbie Wagner: no. I spent a couple minutes because I was like, you know what, I’ve been hitting these limits with Claude, just with my, like, whatever that is, the normal subscription. So I thought like, how do I sign up for like the open code Zen thing where it like switches for you and like gives you recommended ones or whatever.
[00:15:45] Robbie Wagner: And so I did that and I like put $20 in and. Can’t figure out how to like tell it to run with whatever
[00:15:52] Robbie Wagner: models
[00:15:53] Robbie Wagner: it
[00:15:53] Robbie Wagner: wants based on its recommendations.
[00:15:55] Robbie Wagner: I can switch manually. I can do like slash models and like pick one, but I
[00:15:58] Robbie Wagner: thought
[00:15:58] Robbie Wagner: it
[00:15:58] Robbie Wagner: would pick for you, [00:16:00] like,
[00:16:00] Chuck Carpenter: I don’t know. I, I don’t
[00:16:02] Chuck Carpenter: think it does. , That would be pretty cool. I don’t recall reading anything about that, but for me, yeah, it’s, , open code Zen is basically like open router. Which I don’t know if you’ve used Open Router or Open Router allows you to like have one API endpoint and swap models and open Code Zen is the way that you can do that without having to bring your own key across all these other models.
[00:16:26] Chuck Carpenter: So you have like your clogged
[00:16:27] Chuck Carpenter: code, you
[00:16:28] Chuck Carpenter: bring
[00:16:28] Robbie Wagner: So it’s not automatic
[00:16:30] Chuck Carpenter: It’s not automatic
[00:16:31] Chuck Carpenter: No, I think you have to swap the models and then it will just, , that’s why the latest version of Open Code, I don’t know if you upgraded to version one plus, but it has like a total cost thing in there. That’s like a running tally now.
[00:16:44] Robbie Wagner: don’t think I’ve upgraded it ever. Does it not Tell me when it has
[00:16:47] Robbie Wagner: a,
[00:16:48] Chuck Carpenter: No, it
[00:16:49] Robbie Wagner: cool. Then Yeah, I’ve never
[00:16:50] Robbie Wagner: upgraded it.
[00:16:51] Chuck Carpenter: Did you brew install?
[00:16:52] Robbie Wagner: Uh, I don’t know. I did whatever the docs
[00:16:54] Robbie Wagner: told me to do.
[00:16:55] Chuck Carpenter: You have like three
[00:16:56] Robbie Wagner: It was probably brew, if that was a prominently displayed thing. That’s what I always
[00:16:59] Chuck Carpenter: [00:17:00] Yeah, same. So yeah, if you brew upgrade it, then. And they do releases pretty frequently, so I’d be curious where, where you’re at, , might be some better options.
[00:17:11] Robbie Wagner: I only tried grok because it had that little message that’s like, grok is free for unlimited time or
[00:17:15] Robbie Wagner: whatever.
[00:17:15] Robbie Wagner: So
[00:17:16] Robbie Wagner: I was
[00:17:16] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah,
[00:17:17] Robbie Wagner: I’ll do that
[00:17:17] Chuck Carpenter: I think Elon’s doing that a
[00:17:19] Chuck Carpenter: bunch. Crack is just free. Just use it. Give us more data. Duh.
[00:17:23] Chuck Carpenter: if you’re not paying for a product, you are the product.
[00:17:28] Robbie Wagner: Yep.
[00:17:28] Chuck Carpenter: , it’s funny actually, I, I’ve used, I mean I’ve used a ton of different things. I had, I was in New York a few weeks ago for a work, , offsite and we had one day where like everybody came up with like, marketing ideas and try to like flesh out a little bit of, , I don’t know, not like a product, but like flesh out the idea.
[00:17:49] Chuck Carpenter: So I was using a lot of V zero to create a site
[00:17:52] Chuck Carpenter: and. Gemini to create some images and all this kind of stuff. Jumping around to a bunch of those, a [00:18:00] bunch of those tools too. Trying to like flex the other muscles. ‘cause I don’t do a lot of UI lately, so I don’t really need an output of V zero, but V zero can do some pretty cool stuff fast.
[00:18:12] Chuck Carpenter: in, I guess it’s not a full fledged app in the realm of like the lovable or the rept, but still kind of kinda worked pretty quickly and, , and decent and uses shayn and stuff. The only problem is it uses your favorite, uh, you know, view library.
[00:18:29] Robbie Wagner: React.
[00:18:30] Chuck Carpenter: Yes.
[00:18:32] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, I see that you said
[00:18:34] Robbie Wagner: library and
[00:18:35] Robbie Wagner: not framework.
[00:18:36] Chuck Carpenter: Exactly. ‘cause it’s not a framework.
[00:18:38] Chuck Carpenter: It’s not a fucking framework. I mean, you know, it has to like, kind of do more than one thing to be more of a framework. But, you know, I have issues to a agree with all of these JavaScript pseudo frameworks, but they’re, they’re moving along long.
[00:18:55] Robbie Wagner: I have a, I don’t know, not necessarily a hot take, but like a. A [00:19:00] question. I don’t know if I’ve asked this with you on the show or who I asked this to, so if I’ve already covered this with you, let me know. But like, do you think, frameworks even need to still be developed or are we at the point where you just need little libraries that do one thing Well, and then like, AI can just like make you your bespoke whatever framework.
[00:19:21] Robbie Wagner: Like, I don’t need Next.js I just, I want it to do all these things. I want you to build it all. will that win out eventually or actually is it better to have all those guardrails so that then a like a, really opinionated framework like rails or something that like AI can just go, oh, there’s only one way to do this, so
[00:19:37] Robbie Wagner: like,
[00:19:37] Robbie Wagner: I’ll
[00:19:37] Robbie Wagner: do it that way.
[00:19:38] Chuck Carpenter: I think right now the latter is, is probably a better path. But like here, here’s the interesting question because like, oh, progress is made with AI in consuming code to create something, right? I think there’s like this interesting thing that is being missed here, which is like the craft of [00:20:00] development still kind of needs to exist to provide the building blocks that AI is using to make these things like AI never starts with vanilla JavaScript and then like creates you a whole thing.
[00:20:12] Chuck Carpenter: It always, , it’s learned enough about the packages and the cheat codes that it. Can be efficient with them and make you something. So it’s not really that, it’s like at this point replacing development. What it is is just speeding up the gluing together of things with, , documentation and rules and all these things.
[00:20:34] Chuck Carpenter: So it’s like if development went away, who makes the pieces? Who writes the docs? Who
[00:20:41] Chuck Carpenter: confirms that?
[00:20:42] Chuck Carpenter: The
[00:20:43] Robbie Wagner: Well, nothing ever
[00:20:43] Robbie Wagner: improves. You’re just
[00:20:45] Robbie Wagner: spitting out
[00:20:45] Robbie Wagner: the
[00:20:46] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. Yeah. That’s, I guess how react wins because like no one ever makes anything else that catches on enough and AI writes enough react code that you basically wipe out everything else. I mean, maybe.
[00:20:58] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. I don’t know. I [00:21:00] think there’s a lot of react fatigue in general because like. You know, even the people that really loved React and have been using it forever are a little bit burned by the whole like, complete paradigm shift to hooks, which some people do love. And then like the complete takeover of React by Versal, that’s like, oh yeah, we don’t know what’s going on anymore.
[00:21:19] Robbie Wagner: Like, we basically have complete control of the core team and we’re gonna ship like Canary, whatever, like super unproven versions to like make next Js work. so I think a lot of people are like, obviously we need to have jobs, so that’s most important. If everyone that’s paying is doing React, then so be it.
[00:21:40] Robbie Wagner: But like anyone that has the choice, I think at least over half of the people would prefer to try out a different framework, do something else. Like the people are tired of it and it’s like too
[00:21:51] Robbie Wagner: pervasive across the
[00:21:52] Robbie Wagner: industry.
[00:21:53] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. Yeah. I think that it’s like to some degrees, it’s solving a problem that [00:22:00] doesn’t really exist anymore. Like there’s some things that are happening. These continued. Forced evolutions that like, I don’t know if they’re better. I think the only thing I can kind of say that I think has gotten better in react and like next and stuff is I hate the directives.
[00:22:19] Chuck Carpenter: The whole like, use server, use client use my butt hole, like whatever, this all fucking sucks. but I do like that, like, making a form has simplified with like server actions, which is actually closer to the ideology of, hypermedia and what HDMX is doing with like other things. But saying like a form element is.
[00:22:43] Chuck Carpenter: HTML Hypermedia and a form works the way it’s supposed to work. And then they came up with like a clever like, you know, server actions thing to sort of account for that. And you can use just a normal form element. Like, I am tired of custom JSX, [00:23:00] I just want to use HTML. Like there’s a lot of HTML and it just makes
[00:23:03] Chuck Carpenter: sense.
[00:23:04] Chuck Carpenter: And
[00:23:04] Robbie Wagner: it like actually posts the forum
[00:23:06] Robbie Wagner: then,
[00:23:06] Chuck Carpenter: y Yeah, kind of. And then it can do it in this way, like it’s closer to that. It basically is that native and I think there’s like a little, you know, bit of sugar there that makes it do more things as you need. But you can just use a normal form, HTML and not all this like, formic
[00:23:26] Robbie Wagner: it
[00:23:26] Robbie Wagner: a
[00:23:26] Robbie Wagner: class?
[00:23:28] Chuck Carpenter: No, it’s always a class name.
[00:23:30] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah,
[00:23:30] Chuck Carpenter: You know? Yeah. You can’t use the normal
[00:23:32] Chuck Carpenter: attributes in JSX. So of course, like that
[00:23:35] Chuck Carpenter: isn’t,
[00:23:36] Robbie Wagner: just being you. You can just not in reacts.
[00:23:39] Robbie Wagner: JSX.
[00:23:40] Chuck Carpenter: right, right. Exactly. Gsx is, yeah. and I think that’s interesting and there, you know, have been, and there continue to be like new frameworks and stuff that come out and I just don’t, I mostly don’t understand why, like, I’d almost read a, like revisit the iterations of what we know versus like [00:24:00] somebody’s new little nuanced idea on something.
[00:24:02] Chuck Carpenter: Like, I’m also fatigued with that, but
[00:24:06] Chuck Carpenter: I am
[00:24:06] Robbie Wagner: That’s
[00:24:07] Robbie Wagner: always been a problem.
[00:24:08] Chuck Carpenter: yeah, I am faced with like looking at like a new service and a new app and some things, , to explore in some r and d. And I’m like, tan Stack kind of feels very interesting and like it has real legs.
[00:24:22] Robbie Wagner: It’s got momentum
[00:24:23] Chuck Carpenter: it’s got some momentum.
[00:24:25] Chuck Carpenter: So I
[00:24:25] Chuck Carpenter: find that very interesting. . Or you could just, you know, go another direction. Maybe it’s a solid start time, who knows. But Tans Stack start can use solid also, which is kind of
[00:24:36] Chuck Carpenter: interesting. and then I’ve used a few different API frameworks, like, you know, of course there’s like Express and coa and then HO No is supposed to be a little more all like inclusive web framework that starts from the API UP.
[00:24:54] Chuck Carpenter: And I don’t know a ton about it, but like the ideologies sound appealing [00:25:00] to me and like maybe starting on that side rather than like I’m going front end framework first. Like I think I have fatigue about that too.
[00:25:08] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, build the actual
[00:25:09] Robbie Wagner: like
[00:25:10] Robbie Wagner: functionality and
[00:25:11] Robbie Wagner: then
[00:25:12] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. And
[00:25:12] Chuck Carpenter: Logic. Yeah, I mean you literally from any of these can just serve HTML ‘cause that just works. That’s how browsers work. If you respond in not Jason, guess what? That’s not a fucking problem. Like your browser knows how to read that document.
[00:25:30] Robbie Wagner: Yeah.
[00:25:31] Chuck Carpenter: So there’s always that
[00:25:32] Robbie Wagner: I don’t know. I feel like I’m never gonna have the time to want to learn a framework, like I would do it for work, which I guess, you know,
[00:25:40] Robbie Wagner: doing a proof of concept
[00:25:41] Robbie Wagner: sort
[00:25:41] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. You’re a whore.
[00:25:42] Robbie Wagner: for work would be like fine. But yeah, like I find it hard to find the motivation to be like, you know what?
[00:25:50] Robbie Wagner: I would like to learn rails. Like let me build an app in it. Like, okay, with my one hour of free
[00:25:55] Robbie Wagner: time,
[00:25:55] Robbie Wagner: I don’t really wanna do
[00:25:56] Robbie Wagner: that.
[00:25:57] Chuck Carpenter: 10 years ago is not the same as [00:26:00] now. When you get older and you have more job responsibilities and family responsibilities. Exactly. Like you do have to be. A lot more I don’t know, just picky about how you spend your time, so. Yeah, I know, I know. I have a, a framework laptop. I did put a marchy on it and I did like, I do
[00:26:20] Chuck Carpenter: keep
[00:26:20] Robbie Wagner: Oh, you gotta install
[00:26:21] Robbie Wagner: Swatch and tell
[00:26:21] Robbie Wagner: me if it works.
[00:26:22] Chuck Carpenter: Okay.
[00:26:23] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, I can do
[00:26:23] Chuck Carpenter: that. and I have a Windows machine too, so if we, if I need to try that again, but it’s been a while since I’ve tried. We just have to be Yeah. Mindful of our time in order else. But if work allows you to have some r and d time and then you can just try and pick something up, that’s, that’s always the best bet. Yeah. ‘cause we are intending to also land at a desktop app.
[00:26:46] Chuck Carpenter: We’re starting with a Chrome extension. Developing chrome extensions also. Interesting.
[00:26:51] Robbie Wagner: Completely different paradigm than
[00:26:53] Robbie Wagner: anything
[00:26:54] Robbie Wagner: I’ve ever seen. Yeah, but you can write it in all JavaScript and then like, ‘cause that can get [00:27:00] read. So if you write it in TypeScript, you have to transpile or you can just write it in JavaScript. And guess what? You know the browser reads it. So there is some like nice like simplicity to it too.
[00:27:11] Robbie Wagner: I’m gonna have to look into this soon for Ember Inspector
[00:27:13] Robbie Wagner: because we’re trying to get, , it published for Safari again, like it was published for a minute. I don’t know, something about the certificate, like lapsed or whatever. And like if you’re, if it lapses, like they just pull all your stuff from the app store.
[00:27:27] Robbie Wagner: there’s some kind of command you run that’s like Chrome extension output. Like when you build your Chrome extension, I think it just becomes a zip file at the end. , And you like give it the path to that zip and you say like, make for Safari please. And it just does. so I, I think ‘cause like Safari and Apple like got super upset that.
[00:27:46] Robbie Wagner: No one was building any safari extensions because they all had to be like Mac apps. And people were like, I don’t want to touch that. so they made a quick little thing where you just convert, like it wraps it, it’s almost like electron, but for like, , [00:28:00] extensions. And it just like wraps it for Safari in a little Mac app that does nothing basically.
[00:28:04] Robbie Wagner: so it’s, it’s kind of cool and a, a good way to do it. So yeah, you, you should look into that when you’re, uh,
[00:28:10] Robbie Wagner: shipping,
[00:28:10] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. Yeah. Right now just shipping to an internal alpha. , But if it’s that easy to sort of add that, geez, that’d be nice. You,
[00:28:20] Robbie Wagner: mm-hmm.
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[00:28:53] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, and Firefox basically uses the same thing Chrome does. Like you don’t have to do any, there’s like maybe one or two little [00:29:00] lines of config or
[00:29:00] Robbie Wagner: something that are different, but
[00:29:02] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. I, Firefox is dead though, right?
[00:29:04] Robbie Wagner: I don’t know. I, I really liked Firefox for a long time, so I, I hate to admit that it’s. Like kind of dead now,
[00:29:11] Chuck Carpenter: yeah.
[00:29:12] Robbie Wagner: I don’t see how they’re gonna get
[00:29:13] Robbie Wagner: funding to stay alive,
[00:29:14] Robbie Wagner: so.
[00:29:15] Chuck Carpenter: yeah, I haven’t fired it up in a long time, to be honest.
[00:29:19] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. You know what? I’m never firing up though, DIA or, uh, what is Atlas or I don’t, know all these AI ones,
[00:29:26] Robbie Wagner: like yeah. I don’t need that.
[00:29:28] Chuck Carpenter: No, right. Like that’s for, I don’t know, hate to say it, like the lo-fi user who wants quick access, you know, and they, they basically wanna replace search with AI chat, like full-time in their browser.
[00:29:43] Chuck Carpenter: So, yeah, like Cursor has one and I don’t know
[00:29:47] Robbie Wagner: Everybody has one. There’s like 10
[00:29:48] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. Yeah. They came quick. So it’s funny ‘cause as much as like , we’ve seen. Not all, but like a lot of developers start to skew towards working more out of the terminal [00:30:00] rather than, you know, an IDE or, whatever, just text editor. the Normie has skewed to just as direct integration. I, I kind of feel like that’s what it is, is like sure. Capturing the developer community is one, one area.
[00:30:18] Chuck Carpenter: And then other people, they don’t want to go to a separate app. They don’t want to go to a separate tab. They want to use it as easily as they use Google. And they’ve probably in many ways stepped that way. So this is just like, that last thing is like, you’re lazy, you’re on TikTok all day anyway.
[00:30:35] Chuck Carpenter: Here you go.
[00:30:36] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, I mean, I think it’ll be successful because there’s a lot of people that really don’t care. They’re not technically inclined. They like, will use whatever gets the job done the fastest. And if they don’t have a lot of technical experience or experience with ai, it just seems like, oh, this thing’s magic.
[00:30:51] Robbie Wagner: It knows everything It’s totally a sentient thing. I’ll just use this. It’ll tell me all the right answers all the time. everyone else realizes that’s not the case, but like, yeah, [00:31:00] I think they will capture a large portion of people. Like the people that are not skeptics will just blindly
[00:31:05] Robbie Wagner: use
[00:31:05] Robbie Wagner: it and they’re good to
[00:31:06] Robbie Wagner: go
[00:31:07] Chuck Carpenter: It’s kind of like the people that blindly use lovable or rept early days and they were just like, I got it. It’s amazing. I’ve got this budgeting app, or this thing tells me how to invest my stocks. It’s fine. It’s totally right. I asked IE AI to do it. I’m gonna be rich now.
[00:31:25] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:31:26] Robbie Wagner: I forget what we were saying a minute ago, but back to my, my thought that I was, uh, gonna say something
[00:31:31] Robbie Wagner: about really smooth segue here. windows stuff is some bullshit. I don’t understand why it is way harder to release anything for Windows than it is for Mac or Linux.
[00:31:45] Robbie Wagner: that should not be the case. I feel like has not been the case until now. you know, windows had an abundance of software. You just kind of like paid some certificate authority for a certificate and you were like, cool, , I’ve paid you for the certificate, you’ve like [00:32:00] verified it’s me somehow.
[00:32:01] Robbie Wagner: And now I can say this is my app, it’s safe. now they’re like, you know what, that’s too
[00:32:07] Robbie Wagner: easy. You could just take that certificate and put that file like on GitHub actions and publish it. Like that’s, that sounds convenient. We can’t have that. what we need instead is we need a physical USB device that someone has to like press when you’re trying to code sign something.
[00:32:25] Robbie Wagner: There’s all of these really expensive cloud options now for it where I don’t know how it works if they have some kind of automation to get around the physical pressing or simulate the physical pressing, or if you’re really literally paying for a guy who like sits in there and like plugs a new USBN and presses it, which if that’s what they’re doing, that is hilarious.
[00:32:43] Robbie Wagner: But
[00:32:43] Robbie Wagner: like,
[00:32:43] Chuck Carpenter: I mean, probably, I mean,
[00:32:46] Chuck Carpenter: I’m sure there’s, yeah, I’m sure there’s a business model for that. You can offshore that it’s totally fine, but wait, what happened to just creating an EXE and then you
[00:32:56] Robbie Wagner: So you can, you can still do that, but then [00:33:00] it’s like, this is an unidentified developer and a malicious thing and never open this. You’re dumb if you run this. Don’t ever run it. Delete it right now. And you’re like, oh, I probably shouldn’t run it then. That seems dangerous.
[00:33:11] Chuck Carpenter: I see. So
[00:33:12] Chuck Carpenter: they, they don’t believe in the old ways. I was like, I feel like couldn’t you just download
[00:33:18] Robbie Wagner: You could, you could. And I, there, I think there was, there was some kind of info on who published it. I don’t know if it was enforced in any way, but you, like, if you looked at the info, it would say like, who the developer was
[00:33:29] Robbie Wagner: and stuff.
[00:33:30] Chuck Carpenter: I mean, the only
[00:33:31] Chuck Carpenter: things I would ever download on a Windows machine in any recent memory would just be gaming related stuff. So it’d be like, get the Nvidia driver, get the, you know, that stuff.
[00:33:45] Robbie Wagner: yeah. So I don’t, I don’t know, like they have, less intense certifications. Like you can still get the kind of classic certificate that’s like, does the same sort of thing that like we used to use it for, but you’re like less [00:34:00] trusted. it just puts up a tiny message. I think that’s like, Hey, this is not like 100% windows.
[00:34:07] Robbie Wagner: Certified, but it’s like we do kind of know who this is might be okay.
[00:34:12] Robbie Wagner: so like if you want the one that’s like, we’re for sure like, like you can, like if you’re a, you know, any kind of big company that’s has an app that you need to be, no one would ever question it. You’ve gotta get the like really fancy one.
[00:34:24] Robbie Wagner: yeah. So there’s all these hoops for like
[00:34:26] Robbie Wagner: just
[00:34:27] Robbie Wagner: a, I
[00:34:27] Robbie Wagner: just want to
[00:34:28] Robbie Wagner: ship an app
[00:34:28] Chuck Carpenter: you just wanna publish a
[00:34:30] Chuck Carpenter: free open source app, by the way? Free open
[00:34:34] Chuck Carpenter: source, like.
[00:34:35] Robbie Wagner: And so the Mac one, which I would think would be harder ‘cause everyone talks shit about the app store and like all of Apple’s requirements and like whatever, you just pay $99 a year flat fee, get a developer account.
[00:34:48] Robbie Wagner: You can go in and make as many certificates as you want. You can say like, you know, if you want to, it might actually be harder if you’re doing to the app store. , ‘Cause I’m not like, I’m just doing like it’s sign, but it’s not going to the app [00:35:00] store. So it’s maybe a little different.
[00:35:01] Robbie Wagner: But yeah, I’m like, download a couple certificates, put ‘em in.
[00:35:05] Robbie Wagner: Boom. Works so easy. And I can’t imagine like doing all the hoops at Windows as
[00:35:11] Robbie Wagner: you
[00:35:11] Robbie Wagner: do.
[00:35:12] Chuck Carpenter: Hmm. I don’t know why Windows is dying. It’s weird.
[00:35:15] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. And they’re like, that Windows 11 is not supported in bootcamp or on any Mac.
[00:35:21] Robbie Wagner: So like now I’m kind of at, I’ve gotta get, I’m thinking about a framework desktop just for funsies, but like, I don’t know. , ‘Cause I, I don’t really use my Mac Pro desktop that much and it’s like currently hosed because I was like doing an update and my screen was off
[00:35:38] Robbie Wagner: for
[00:35:38] Robbie Wagner: like hours
[00:35:41] Robbie Wagner: and so I was like pressing buttons and stuff and nothing would ever come on.
[00:35:44] Robbie Wagner: So I did like eventually press the power button and I think I did it like mid update and it’s like you can’t boot it anymore. So ironically, I can still boot to the Windows partition. So I just
[00:35:54] Robbie Wagner: do
[00:35:54] Robbie Wagner: that and play games and.
[00:35:56] Chuck Carpenter: Which is ironically also funny [00:36:00] because that’s why you bought it to begin with.
[00:36:02] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, it is. Yeah, so it’s, yeah, it is. It’s annoying because I don’t want to have like a million different computers, so I’m kind of leaning towards, if I’m gonna have a desktop at all, it’s gonna be, the main OS will be some sort of Linux, and then I’ll boot over into Windows for gaming because like I’m just tired of it.
[00:36:25] Robbie Wagner: Like I want to be able to play with different stuff and have it work,
[00:36:28] Robbie Wagner: so
[00:36:29] Chuck Carpenter: Oh, that’s, you ask so much of your money, you want it just to solve your problems. And you know, it seems as if it can’t, I mean, I have less computers than I had, but I still have a few, which is kind of funny when I kind of think about it. , I’m still on my M1 mini right now. That’s kind of my like, main personal machine, so I like that work.
[00:36:53] Chuck Carpenter: Computer’s a MacBook Pro, M four Max, so it does all the things, but it’s a
[00:36:59] Robbie Wagner: That’s the [00:37:00] latest one, right? Or are they the M five?
[00:37:01] Robbie Wagner: No.
[00:37:01] Chuck Carpenter: no, it’s the latest. Yeah, Got it. Like basically right when they came out,
[00:37:05] Chuck Carpenter: so.
[00:37:06] Chuck Carpenter: Oh, okay. couple of Linux boxes. One, I run this thing called recall box on for like retro gaming. One was just play around a bunch of server stuff that I haven’t done anything significant with and then I just inherited a Windows laptop, so
[00:37:22] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. I think I’m just kind of at the point where I can’t ever imagine myself paying like three to $5,000 for a MacBook Pro or Mac Pro or whatever, like a, a nice shiny piece of aluminum that is like, fine. Like if you can get something that performs. Probably way better for gaming. If gaming is the main focus for like half the price, why would you
[00:37:47] Robbie Wagner: not
[00:37:47] Robbie Wagner: like,
[00:37:48] Chuck Carpenter: yeah, for sure. You know, I felt that very much about like the Apple XDR monitor. This is a good thing. Similar thing, amazing monitor. Great. Right. We had it [00:38:00] for years. And I had to think about like, am I gonna ship this overseas? And if it breaks, uh, it’s gonna like be crazy, you know? And then of course you gotta go through insurance to like replace it and everything else, and it’s great.
[00:38:15] Chuck Carpenter: But is it necessary for me? Is it really necessary?
[00:38:19] Robbie Wagner: it’s not, it’s like what, five or six times the cost of like the LG opt
[00:38:24] Robbie Wagner: define 5K or
[00:38:25] Robbie Wagner: whatever, and it’s, it is not five or six times the picture quality. It is like a little better. Like if you put ‘em side by side, you could see a difference. But if you were like just using one or the other,
[00:38:38] Robbie Wagner: you’d
[00:38:38] Robbie Wagner: be
[00:38:38] Robbie Wagner: very happy with
[00:38:39] Robbie Wagner: either.
[00:38:39] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. And I honestly think that I’d probably be happy with a newer Apple Studio monitor as well. And again, the cost is
[00:38:49] Chuck Carpenter: like $1,500 or so.
[00:38:52] Robbie Wagner: And they have, do they have cameras in them? I
[00:38:54] Robbie Wagner: think they do,
[00:38:55] Chuck Carpenter: I
[00:38:55] Chuck Carpenter: think they might have cameras in them and uh, but like you said, there’s the other, , like [00:39:00] 5K options or six K options. And so it’s like, yeah, I sold it.
[00:39:04] Chuck Carpenter: So, and I figured, oh, I’ll just buy another if, uh, I want to go down that path. And I have a 4K LG right now that’s kind of like suffic, so I could see getting a better monitor. But yeah, shipping that was just like, doesn’t
[00:39:20] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of these really expensive hardware options that are just like
[00:39:26] Robbie Wagner: barely better exist, so that. People that are, you know, have a big pile of business money to spend, do. Like, I don’t think it’s meant to be a consumer option that you like are supposed to be so wowed by, you’re okay with spending $6,000 on a monitor or whatever.
[00:39:43] Robbie Wagner: It’s like, it’s for businesses you’re not even supposed
[00:39:45] Robbie Wagner: to
[00:39:45] Robbie Wagner: look at it
[00:39:46] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, yeah. Move on. Serious businesses and really that monitor was released not for developers, right?
[00:39:54] Chuck Carpenter: Like it was for people doing like high processing video stuff and graphics [00:40:00] work and whatever.
[00:40:01] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. Yeah. I saw something about like, people that had the, the matte one in like a is really good for like going on set in like a lowlight environment or a highlight environment
[00:40:12] Robbie Wagner: or something. It was good for
[00:40:14] Robbie Wagner: like,
[00:40:15] Robbie Wagner: you could see it the way it was meant to be seen, versus like, oh, I don’t know. They compared it to some other like actual, you know, made for that studio monitor kind of thing.
[00:40:25] Robbie Wagner: And they were like. specialized ones, I think were actually maybe like 10 grand or whatever. Like, you know, like any kind of camera professional stuff is always really expensive. So I think they were like, this is actually a bargain. Like it’s not made for the rest of you. This is like,
[00:40:40] Robbie Wagner: yeah.
[00:40:40] Chuck Carpenter: If, if you’re like, this is three times more than what I would normally find, then it’s probably not for you.
[00:40:47] Robbie Wagner: yeah. yeah.
[00:40:48] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah,
[00:40:49] Chuck Carpenter: That’s fair. All righty then. Hardware. How’d we get into hardware? I don’t wanna talk about GitHub
[00:40:56] Chuck Carpenter: actions.
[00:40:57] Chuck Carpenter: ‘cause I
[00:40:58] Robbie Wagner: no, I do just wanna finish the, my [00:41:00] whole like thread there. , So yeah, swatch it is now released for Apple, Linux and then Linux like via Snap. So you can like snap. I fought with a bunch, because like there’s an electron maker snap that you give options and stuff. It was like never working.
[00:41:18] Robbie Wagner: Like there’s a ton of issues on, on that and on like electron installer snap, which it wraps and like, it’s like it doesn’t work. Can’t do it. Permissions don’t work. So I’m curious, like I got it released. I don’t, I
[00:41:30] Robbie Wagner: haven’t
[00:41:30] Robbie Wagner: run it. I don’t know if it
[00:41:32] Chuck Carpenter: Oh, okay. Well I could try that. , I am gonna say, I thought I saw something where like Umuntu was gonna stop including Snap in their,
[00:41:42] Robbie Wagner: Hmm. Well
[00:41:43] Robbie Wagner: it’s
[00:41:44] Robbie Wagner: their thing though.
[00:41:45] Chuck Carpenter: Exactly. And that like, maybe it hasn’t worked out, so I wonder if like, it’s not the default for Linux Distros.
[00:41:54] Robbie Wagner: I don’t know. I saw they have, , like if you go to, So it tells you on the releases page for [00:42:00] Swatch. How to install it for all the different Linux, distros and Arches on there. So it tells you like how to get Snap and like install it and stuff. So I thought they were like trying to be the package thing, like app
[00:42:13] Robbie Wagner: store
[00:42:13] Robbie Wagner: for
[00:42:13] Robbie Wagner: Linux.
[00:42:14] Chuck Carpenter: They were, they definitely were. But
[00:42:16] Chuck Carpenter: I, I feel like recently I saw that versus a PT, right? Like, I don’t know,
[00:42:24] Robbie Wagner: well, a PT is like how
[00:42:26] Robbie Wagner: you
[00:42:27] Robbie Wagner: install
[00:42:28] Chuck Carpenter: Norm.
[00:42:28] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah,
[00:42:29] Chuck Carpenter: yeah.
[00:42:29] Robbie Wagner: like they don’t have a gooey, it’s like not
[00:42:32] Chuck Carpenter: No, no, no. They don’t have a gooey, Yeah. I don’t know. It still says it’s a pre-install anyway. Well, it’s
[00:42:39] Robbie Wagner: I can’t get it to load right
[00:42:40] Robbie Wagner: now.
[00:42:41] Chuck Carpenter: Oh my gosh. The internet’s not working. I’m, and I’m trying to stream video. There’s so much going on here.
[00:42:48] Chuck Carpenter: I want to, what’s a taco latte? I do wanna know that
[00:42:52] Chuck Carpenter: I
[00:42:52] Robbie Wagner: taco
[00:42:52] Robbie Wagner: lot.
[00:42:53] Chuck Carpenter: taco lot, not taco Little.
[00:42:56] Robbie Wagner: so yeah, this was, um, because you mentioned Taco Bell right [00:43:00] before we started recording. , you know the Chaco taco?
[00:43:03] Chuck Carpenter: Yes.
[00:43:04] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. So they made a new one that is much fancier, , that collaborated with salt and straw, you know, the ice cream place in
[00:43:10] Robbie Wagner: Portland
[00:43:11] Robbie Wagner: and
[00:43:12] Chuck Carpenter: don’t,
[00:43:12] Robbie Wagner: elsewhere. I don’t know, the people would go at Ember
[00:43:15] Robbie Wagner: Kaf.
[00:43:15] Robbie Wagner: It was like a big thing.
[00:43:16] Chuck Carpenter: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes.
[00:43:18] Robbie Wagner: yeah. so they made, it’s like ancho chili, cinnamon ice cream or something.
[00:43:26] Chuck Carpenter: Okay.
[00:43:27] Robbie Wagner: Then it’s like, it’s got, I think that the ice cream part is wrapped in chocolate so that it won’t make the, uh, like waffle part soggy. And then there’s like the waffle part on the outside, and then more chocolate over it, and like some quinoa puffs or something on
[00:43:43] Robbie Wagner: top.
[00:43:43] Chuck Carpenter: Oh
[00:43:44] Chuck Carpenter: yeah. My God, I don’t
[00:43:45] Robbie Wagner: and it comes with, uh, it comes with, , two sauces, like a taco sauce. Like it comes with a, uh, wildberry cinnamon or something, and a mango, , jalapeno.
[00:43:57] Robbie Wagner: so you have to buy a six [00:44:00] pack of them and get them shipped to your house unless you’re near like a salt and straw that has them or whatever. So we got six of them sent to our house and we’ve eaten them all.
[00:44:08] Robbie Wagner: And, uh, , they were pretty good, I think, much better than a Chaco taco, but I don’t think it would like. They’re too expensive and too like fancy tasting, I feel like to like, do well at a, like, like get one at
[00:44:23] Robbie Wagner: Taco
[00:44:23] Robbie Wagner: Bell.
[00:44:23] Chuck Carpenter: it’s definitely like a one-off kind of thing. It’s sort of like their Palm Springs resort. It’s like, oh, it’s kind of kitschy as a one-off thing, but it, you know, doesn’t have long-term appeal.
[00:44:35] Robbie Wagner: Yeah.
[00:44:35] Robbie Wagner: They’re doing all the brand
[00:44:36] Robbie Wagner: collab,
[00:44:37] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, that
[00:44:38] Chuck Carpenter: makes sense. okay. Yeah, you’re, you’re a fan boy. when I was in America for a week, I, what I had said to you is like, I had a, a Taco Bell cantina near my hotel, and I thought like, oh, maybe I should try that out. But I don’t know, didn’t make it. Maybe a little disappointed, but [00:45:00] you know. It happens.
[00:45:02] Chuck Carpenter: ‘cause you know, any kind of
[00:45:04] Chuck Carpenter: Mexican food is not something I was getting much of.
[00:45:07] Robbie Wagner: That’s true.
[00:45:08] Robbie Wagner: That’s true. Yeah. The, um, they did the Y 2K menu like
[00:45:12] Robbie Wagner: all of October
[00:45:13] Robbie Wagner: I think,
[00:45:14] Chuck Carpenter: Oh
[00:45:14] Robbie Wagner: like that. and it was, I don’t know, nothing really stuck out other than the chili cheese burritos. ‘cause I love the chili cheese burritos.
[00:45:23] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. And oh no, and the caramel apple empanada was back, but it was different.
[00:45:28] Robbie Wagner: It was not like, I remember them being really not good, like when I used to occasionally get one and they were really good
[00:45:34] Robbie Wagner: this
[00:45:34] Robbie Wagner: time. So they changed the recipe for
[00:45:36] Robbie Wagner: sure.
[00:45:36] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. they
[00:45:37] Chuck Carpenter: dialed it in. That’s
[00:45:38] Chuck Carpenter: all they got you. They got, now you’re gonna get it the next time. So
[00:45:43] Robbie Wagner: Well they don’t, they’re gone
[00:45:44] Robbie Wagner: now.
[00:45:44] Chuck Carpenter: yeah, but the I bet they’ll do it again. I
[00:45:47] Robbie Wagner: They will every like five years. Chili cheese burritos come back and then I go to Taco Bell every
[00:45:54] Robbie Wagner: day.
[00:45:56] Chuck Carpenter: Oh my. Yeah. What it is about your generation that loves [00:46:00] Aleto? I never really got it. Never really
[00:46:02] Chuck Carpenter: like
[00:46:02] Robbie Wagner: It’s just melty
[00:46:03] Robbie Wagner: and cheesy. I don’t
[00:46:04] Robbie Wagner: know.
[00:46:05] Chuck Carpenter: yeah, it’s melty cheesy with a
[00:46:06] Chuck Carpenter: little like strip of pseudo chili in there and you’re like, yes, I want this.
[00:46:10] Robbie Wagner: Well, they also, I think as part of like the, the release, I think they made the chili
[00:46:15] Robbie Wagner: like real chili too.
[00:46:16] Robbie Wagner: Like
[00:46:17] Robbie Wagner: it tasted like it had like spices in it and I was like, this is not what I remember.
[00:46:22] Robbie Wagner: But uh,
[00:46:23] Robbie Wagner: it was
[00:46:23] Robbie Wagner: still good.
[00:46:24] Chuck Carpenter: I feel like the chili they used to put in there was kind of like the canned hot dog sauce, you know, the hot dog, like sauce chili. It was just like that with cheese and it was like so
[00:46:34] Chuck Carpenter: basic.
[00:46:35] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, you could have put anything in there as long as you heat it up enough to melt the
[00:46:39] Robbie Wagner: cheese. Good.
[00:46:40] Robbie Wagner: It’s fine.
[00:46:40] Chuck Carpenter: Didn’t matter. Yeah. Brown sauce. I just want brown sauce in there.
[00:46:45] Chuck Carpenter: So on the food thread, I thought, I, I just, I realized this thing that I should bring up that I am excited about. So, so we are getting this thing called a Bibi, or at least it’s called a Bibi [00:47:00] in Italy. Most of the world, it’s called a thermo mix.
[00:47:04] Chuck Carpenter: It’s a German company that makes this like robot cooker. And it’s become more and more advanced over the years. It’s like a 50 plus year old company, but like, they do crazy stuff now. It has a touch screen and apps and connects to the internet and does all these things. it’s like 20 devices in one.
[00:47:24] Chuck Carpenter: So it’s got like a peel, peeler, and spiralizer. And it’s like a food processor. It’s like a, it can be a slow cooker. It’s like a boiler. It’s a rice cooker, it’s a steamer, it’s a
[00:47:38] Robbie Wagner: Can it do multiple
[00:47:39] Robbie Wagner: things
[00:47:39] Robbie Wagner: at once
[00:47:39] Robbie Wagner: or is
[00:47:40] Chuck Carpenter: can, no, it can do multiple things at once. And so a lot of people here have talked about this thing, the BIM be this Bim be cooking thing.
[00:47:48] Chuck Carpenter: It’s like people love the bim, be here. And I’m like, okay, yeah, whatever. You look into it, it’s very expensive. So it is
[00:47:54] Chuck Carpenter: like, yeah, it’s like a Vitamix times three, [00:48:00] so you know, and you’re like, Vitamix is like a blender. What the fuck? It’s like a crazy blender, but it is kind of a blender and you need a lot of other things still too.
[00:48:09] Robbie Wagner: But if it theoretically
[00:48:10] Robbie Wagner: Does
[00:48:11] Robbie Wagner: everything,
[00:48:12] Robbie Wagner: you don’t need anything else to cook a meal, then that replaces, you
[00:48:17] Robbie Wagner: know, five plus other appliances potentially.
[00:48:19] Robbie Wagner: So
[00:48:19] Robbie Wagner: I could see it being very
[00:48:20] Robbie Wagner: expensive.
[00:48:21] Chuck Carpenter: You still need an air fryer. At least in the recipe we, we chose. But it does kill off a lot And I would say the other thing that’s like probably a little weird is it comes off very multi-level marketing wise in the such that you wanna buy one, well, you need to like contact a consultant.
[00:48:41] Chuck Carpenter: I think I get why they do it, because the price point is kind of high and, and so you’re like, yeah, it seems interesting, but like, I don’t know. And you get someone to come over and basically
[00:48:53] Chuck Carpenter: do So But I mean, here, it’s not like they’re like, they’re really [00:49:00] like buy it or not. They really, you know, they don’t care.
[00:49:02] Chuck Carpenter: There’s no like, hustle here. And so, you know, you can book them and they come over and they, you, go through and you pick a recipe together, you buy your ingredients and they come over and they set up the thing and they do pretty much all the work and they’re like leading you through it. It’s cool though because it’s just, it’s like an iPad with this app on it.
[00:49:23] Chuck Carpenter: And you can meal plan and do all this other crazy shit. But like for the one recipe, it literally just leads you through every step. It’s like, great for these things, we’re gonna have five ingredients, so we’re gonna start here. And let’s say we did this like sesame chicken thing, so we’re gonna work on the sauce first.
[00:49:41] Chuck Carpenter: And it’s like, oh, put some sesame oil and, oh, you need, I don’t know, a hundred grams of that. And so Sarah starts to go and get out a measuring cup, and they’re like, no, no, no, no. It measures like, don’t worry about it. Like you say, I’m doing this. And then as you’re pouring it in, it just starts to, [00:50:00] you know, measure how much you’re putting in.
[00:50:03] Chuck Carpenter: It’s like, oh, you
[00:50:03] Chuck Carpenter: need, uh, you need five milligrams of salt as you’re shaking the salt in it’s measuring, it’s like doing every single step like that. It was insane. It was just like. Making the sauce, doing the chopping itself cleans also, by the way, so you’re like, oh, you go through the sauce and you need it for the next thing.
[00:50:23] Chuck Carpenter: You just put in some water, put in a little drop of soap, and then run it for two minutes, rinse it out, it’s done, it’s done. All the cleaning, it’s it, it was so cool. And then like you’re cooking one part and then you put in this like rice cooker and you put your rice in and then you stack this other thing and you, it, oh, by the way, it has chopped your carrots.
[00:50:44] Chuck Carpenter: So now you put your carrots up there so it can steam those. And you put another layer so it can steam your snow peas, and then you’re just like, all right, 15 minutes, it’s gonna do all that thing. And it just, it does like everything. There are like 120,000 [00:51:00] recipes in this thing that you can pick from. And it’s just like one unit.
[00:51:04] Chuck Carpenter: Self-cleaning, just like super easy. The Bibi or the Thermo Mix, I don’t know, become an advocate
[00:51:12] Chuck Carpenter: for it because we
[00:51:13] Robbie Wagner: You’ll have to send us a video so we
[00:51:15] Chuck Carpenter: I, I think you would like it. I definitely think you would like it because it is just like for Sarah, she’s like meal planning and grocery shopping and do all the stuff and you can go through the app meal plan, it’ll export your grocery list, and then it just robot cooks most of the stuff for you.
[00:51:35] Chuck Carpenter: So it’s
[00:51:35] Chuck Carpenter: pretty
[00:51:35] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, I forget about appliances a lot of the time. ‘cause like we have a, uh, food processor which can like shred cheese or cut up vegetables or do whatever for you. And the few times I remember that, I’m like, I’m done. Like all my prep is usually like 20 minutes of like dicing shit or whatever, and it’s just done.
[00:51:55] Robbie Wagner: I’m like, oh, okay. , So I, you know, that times every little
[00:51:59] Robbie Wagner: step [00:52:00]
[00:52:00] Chuck Carpenter: yeah, yeah. Like food processing right into the thing that’s gonna cook it. Like
[00:52:05] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, Mm-hmm.
[00:52:08] Chuck Carpenter: so the, uh, yeah, I’ll have to share that with you, but like this, I think our food world is gonna change a little bit. It apparently can like cook a soup and then like, , proof the bread. If you want to have like soup and you wanna bake your own bread to have with your soup, you can like have it, get your dough ready and then get all your soup stuff going and then put the like, steamer thing on top and it’ll, , quick proof your bread so it gets ready way faster.
[00:52:39] Chuck Carpenter: And then you just bake it. So you still need an oven, but you like bake it while you’re making soup. Like that kind of shit is really
[00:52:45] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. Nice.
[00:52:47] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah.
[00:52:47] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, I’ll, uh, have to check
[00:52:49] Robbie Wagner: that out
[00:52:49] Robbie Wagner: for
[00:52:49] Robbie Wagner: sure.
[00:52:50] Chuck Carpenter: All right. I’ll send you links. I’ll send you my affiliate link. I got bills to pay, bro.
[00:52:57] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. Yeah. Don’t we all? Yeah, I, [00:53:00] uh. Had a fun bill. , A couple days ago now our septic system stopped
[00:53:05] Robbie Wagner: working,
[00:53:06] Robbie Wagner: which is a big problem,
[00:53:08] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:53:09] Chuck Carpenter: I’m, uh, intrigued that you have a septic system
[00:53:13] Robbie Wagner: yeah, everything, , north of Georgetown Pike is on septic and everything south is on, town
[00:53:21] Robbie Wagner: stuff.
[00:53:21] Robbie Wagner: I guess.
[00:53:22] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah.
[00:53:22] Chuck Carpenter: Town stuff.
[00:53:23] Robbie Wagner: but um, yeah, so the, the septic tank has two pumps and they may have been original to the house ‘cause they stopped pumping. They, like, they were, they would turn on, but they weren’t like pumping
[00:53:34] Robbie Wagner: anything,
[00:53:34] Robbie Wagner: which is a problem.
[00:53:36] Robbie Wagner: And so our septic alarm went off and was like, Hey, you should call somebody. So I did. yeah, they were basically like, Hey, cool, we will come, we’ll come pump it out today because like. We don’t want it to overflow on you, like give you some peace of mind. Like it started out great. They’re like, oh, come out for free.
[00:53:51] Robbie Wagner: We’re gonna pump it for free. No problem. Like, you know, and I didn’t realize that that would only buy you like two days of time.
[00:53:57] Robbie Wagner: ,
[00:53:57] Robbie Wagner: So
[00:53:58] Robbie Wagner: like, I’m like, cool, we’re we’re, [00:54:00] we’ll, we’ll have time to
[00:54:01] Robbie Wagner: like, uh, we’ll have time to, um, to figure out quotes and, and do whatever. And, uh, we did not because like two or three days later, the alarm was going off again and I was like, Hey, , yeah, I’ll pay you whatever you need.
[00:54:14] Robbie Wagner: Let’s just fix
[00:54:15] Robbie Wagner: this. so they came and fixed
[00:54:17] Robbie Wagner: it and so they, they quoted us like 6,550 total. And I was like, Hey, that’s kind of expensive. Could we do like just 6,000? I like that round number. And they were like, uh, we can do 62 50. So they gave me like a little off, but still really expensive.
[00:54:34] Robbie Wagner: They guys come out and they work for like an hour or less and they’re like. And I’m like, really? Like it was this easy and you were gonna charge me this much money?
[00:54:43] Chuck Carpenter: $6,000 for one hour of work. Like, how the fuck does that work? You know how that works you don’t want turds
[00:54:51] Chuck Carpenter: floating up.
[00:54:53] Robbie Wagner: So I think like they give you a false sense of security with like pumping it out at first for free and then you get stuck with the [00:55:00] alarm again.
[00:55:00] Robbie Wagner: And they’re basically like, they were like, oh, if you want us to come pump it out on the weekend, , it’s $895 just to pump it out. And I was like, uh, no. So like, they were like, yeah, we’ll pump it for free if we come do the work. And I was like, all right. Fuck. Like, let’s just do the work. And I also like asked chat GPT, like is this a good price?
[00:55:19] Robbie Wagner: And it was like. Uh, it’s kind of high, like, you know, but it’s, you know, not super outta range. Like what zip code are you in? And I told it and it was like, oh, this is a great price. You should just
[00:55:30] Robbie Wagner: like, go with them. And I was like, oh shit. So these
[00:55:33] Robbie Wagner: guys are
[00:55:33] Robbie Wagner: just literally marking up
[00:55:34] Robbie Wagner: everything for
[00:55:35] Chuck Carpenter: yeah, yeah.
[00:55:36] Robbie Wagner: which is, yeah. super annoying. But it’s fixed now. So like, we can
[00:55:41] Robbie Wagner: actually
[00:55:42] Chuck Carpenter: here’s a thought, you know, what is, you know, what
[00:55:45] Chuck Carpenter: doesn’t cost a thousand dollars a week? Although it doesn’t provide the same conveniences, and I know you have small people, , a week in a hotel, you could just go to a hotel for a week. don’t fill your septic tank.
[00:55:58] Robbie Wagner: But we have dogs too though. [00:56:00]
[00:56:00] Chuck Carpenter: Oh, right. ’
[00:56:01] Robbie Wagner: cause I thought about that. I was like, should we just go stay with like
[00:56:06] Robbie Wagner: some family for a bit and then have it fixed in a little while? And then I was like, I don’t, no, this just, it, it didn’t work out. I was like, let’s just
[00:56:13] Robbie Wagner: get it
[00:56:13] Robbie Wagner: fixed. Doesn’t matter.
[00:56:14] Chuck Carpenter: yeah. Hot. Take your dogs. Ruin your life.
[00:56:17] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. Not a hot take. Like it definitely is true.
[00:56:22] Robbie Wagner: odie today was, uh, on the couch next to me this morning and just pooped all
[00:56:26] Robbie Wagner: over
[00:56:26] Robbie Wagner: the
[00:56:26] Robbie Wagner: couch, so
[00:56:27] Chuck Carpenter: Oh
[00:56:28] Robbie Wagner: awesome.
[00:56:29] Chuck Carpenter: No, maybe he’ll be the next couch. I don’t know. You know, he’ll live on forever. In your family. You can sit on, you can put your ass on his face. It’d be amazing.
[00:56:41] Chuck Carpenter: Anyway, I think that’s a segue to our outro.
[00:56:45] Robbie Wagner: Yeah.
[00:56:46] Chuck Carpenter: it’s not cool
[00:56:47] Chuck Carpenter: to talk about dead dogs. Duh.
[00:56:53] Robbie Wagner: you love that, that
[00:56:54] Robbie Wagner: too much.
[00:56:55] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah,
[00:56:57] Robbie Wagner: Does this do anything?
[00:56:59] Robbie Wagner: [00:57:00] No,
[00:57:01] Robbie Wagner: I was trying to do a, a sound
[00:57:02] Robbie Wagner: effect.
[00:57:03] Chuck Carpenter: No. Well, you don’t,
[00:57:04] Robbie Wagner: think you have to have
[00:57:05] Robbie Wagner: it turned up.
[00:57:05] Robbie Wagner: Maybe
[00:57:06] Chuck Carpenter: maybe or I don’t know what the thing is. Your setup is different than my setup.
[00:57:13] Robbie Wagner: There you go.
[00:57:14] Chuck Carpenter: Exactly.
[00:57:15] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. Jason Torres at, uh, all Things Open was like, I need a minimum of three air horns in this, uh, this recording. So we, we did a few.
[00:57:29] Chuck Carpenter: sorry, I finally let the audience come in. You know, there’s people behind me, so,
[00:57:34] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. The live studio audience has been very
[00:57:36] Robbie Wagner: quiet
[00:57:36] Robbie Wagner: this episode.
[00:57:37] Chuck Carpenter: yeah. yeah. you just weren’t hitting it, so, oh,
[00:57:42] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. All right. Well, we are at time. Anything you wanna plug? fancy kitchen appliances.com. I forget what.
[00:57:50] Chuck Carpenter: Bibi is the Italian one, but I think for most of our listeners, you’re looking for the thermo mix. It’s a German company, [00:58:00] so the shit works for a long time.
[00:58:01] Robbie Wagner: All right. Thanks everyone for listening. If you’d like to please subscribe, leave us some ratings and reviews. We appreciate it, and we’ll catch you next
[00:58:06] Robbie Wagner: time.
[00:58:07] Chuck Carpenter: Boom, boom, boom, boom,
[00:58:11] Outro: You’ve been watching Whiskey Web and Whatnot. Recorded in front of a live studio audience. What the fuck are you talking about, Chuck? Enjoyed the show? Subscribe. You know, people don’t pay attention to these, right? Head to whiskey.fund for merchant to join our Discord server. I’m serious, it’s like 2% of people who actually click these links. And don’t forget to leave us a five star review and tell your friends about the show. All right, dude, I’m outta here. Still got it.