RobbieTheWagner 
Adam Argyle In today's modern technological world, developers face many difficult questions. Artificial intelligence, autonomous agents, JavaScript frameworks, even CSS. With so much happening so quickly, how can a developer possibly keep up? Simple. Just listen to the world's most important AI podcast. Two experts, countless opinions, zero hesitation. The internet is complicated. These men are not. Each week, they review the latest developments in artificial intelligence and modern web development. This is Whiskey, Web, and Whatnot, the world's most important AI podcast. Hey, what's up, everybody? This is Whiskey, Web, and Whatnot with your hosts, Robbie the Wagner and Adam Thomas Argyle, the nerd.
Oots, oots, oots, oots. joining us is a very special guest who do we got adam entrepreneur nerd ai guru reaching deep into the capabilities and custom setups educator co-founder of egghead tool builder course builder data slinger back-end architect architect indie hacker badass dev at badass.dev advisor consultant video player dev dev rel father of five co-running the knowledge adventure club digital garden maintainer llm dnd dungeon master and in 2017 he sent over 10 million emails with two and a half in one month alone. Joel is an automator, workflow orchestrator, father of dragons, one-wheeler, Euro, rack,
modular, synth, hacker, diehard dev to the core. Ratcat and friend. Welcome to the show, Joel Hooks. No, man. You're absolutely right. Hey. Yeah, welcome. Thanks for having me. It's good stuff. It's like we're in paradise. It is. It's just like that. A simulation of paradise. Plastic, yeah. Well, if we're in a simulation already, though. Yeah. Simulation. Simulated simulation. True. Yeah. How many simulations deep are we right now? There's no telling. It's fractals. Claude, tell me which one I'm in. That's the real work we need to do. All right. So we've got a random list of hot takes. We've talked about a lot of these off the show with you already, but is React a framework?
I mean, yeah, React's a framework. that's crazy that would even be a question like yeah it's a framework i would disagree yeah that's not the common answer well i mean being wrong is fine like i think people are allowed to like be wrong like that's that's great but it's clearly a framework is it the only framework you need or is it the ultimate expression of a framework maybe not the rest of them the next and and tan stacks and stuff are i think more they're meta frameworks i think is the framework above the framework. Right. But yeah. You're saying it's a library, I assume. Yeah. Yeah. This is a framework.
Yeah, it's just for rendering. It's doing too much just to be a library. If you took like one slice of it, but it does so much. Like it's got opinions. Yeah. So, you know, at that point, I think you're well into framework land, in my opinion. Okay. No wrong answer, except it's a library. Wow. Were React server components a mistake? I mean I actually really enjoy them and I think they're a great idea and in practice if you understand how to use them and you are using them on the path that they were implemented on then they're great and I think things have to grow and evolve and not necessarily a mistake
I don't know that they're the end of the conversation yeah that's fair hooks, signals, or proxies? i i have only really used hooks i haven't got into signals in general just because i'm uh in matters of style i swim with the stream um and we'll just use whatever is the the kind of most prominent because i don't i don't care too deeply if that makes sense like i'm not yeah not i quit years ago pursuing like the the cutting edge of whatever is new and fashionable or or the change just for the sake of it in favor of just kind of doing react and going along with the program um i think it's interesting now because i think the barrier to just trying stuff
is actually lower and and i've changed some of that philosophy a little bit over the last a couple of years just in exploration but i still like if i was going to go down any rabbit hole it would be with solid and and signals and what they're doing because i think it's really interesting but I don't know that Solid wants to be successful. Yeah, Ryan. You know, and I think it's amazing, and his brain is awesome, and what he's built is really cool, but, you know, like, is the goal of that particular project to be the next React? And I don't know that that's necessarily what they're even trying to do.
Yeah, I feel like it's very undervalued. A lot of people have, like, learned cool stuff from it and taken it for their frameworks, and then it doesn't get any love. I don't know why. Yeah, I mean, it's awesome. Like, it has really, really great ideas. And truly, if I was to, like, switch and become a zealot for any other sort of framework ecosystem, I think that would be also a framework, by the way. Well, that one is a framework. Come on. In that logic, Solid Start would be the framework. No, no, I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. I mean, I'll just fucking tump this over and, like, we'll be done.
That'd be a really cool way to leave. I mean, I'm like, no one's done that yet. Oh, God. I assume you got the proper insurance. Oh, no. That's a joke. I know that. That's not true. We do have an LLC, though. Nice. Your LLC will absorb the cost. Yes. Is HTML a programming language? I mean, it's a templating language. It's not even a templating language. Yeah, sure. Nice. Sure. All right. What about CSS? Sure. CSS, I think. Yes, yeah, sure. Can you run Doom in CSS? Adam, can you make Doom run in CSS? I think people have made Doom recently run in CSS. Can you make it run in HTML? Well, with the new HTML and Canvas, you can.
They're putting interactive forms on the walls in Doom right now where you've got like a leaderboard. Like you're running around regular Doom, but the texture on that wall is now an interactive form that you can see your own score, other people's score. It's real time. It's kind of cool. But it wouldn't look like anything without CSS. that's super true yeah yeah i don't know we were the definition is hard but we were like if you can get hacked via it like it can compromise your machine then it must be a programming language right like you can get hacked through css maybe not just vanilla html and it can crash it can
crash the machine yeah the billion laughs attack is one of my favorite ones to talk about in that way but yeah yeah i don't know yeah no right answer uh there is a right answer to this one though tailwind or vanilla css so i have a blog post where i talk about how i'm gonna learn css and i'm finally gonna do it and that was like four years ago and i still don't like actually i'd suck at css and it's like a willful ignorance um and at this point i'm never going to so it tailwind for me like i'm you know it's like a nice not perfect but close enough abstraction for me to like be more functional and even even then i'm like i'm not not great at it and i don't
that isn't you know like css is amazing and i'm always so blown away by folks that have really dove in and can do that and i think it's interesting also that the agents are not there yet in that particular space like they can they can do stuff and the designs are fine but they're not great compared to like a true maestro of css is one of the most like uh impressive skills um i think left and front end to me like when i when i see that because it is so difficult and there's so much and there's so much esoteric knowledge that goes into like truly truly mastering that particular programming language um yeah it's uh yeah i just wrote a blog post about it i was
trying to say that css is going to be the last language that llms are good at because humans and our choices and our preferences in that moment aren't pinnable static targets so it can't predict all of it and then by the time you've given it all the potentials that it could do it sucks at it and it can't see it's the visual nature to me it's probably like the the big big and i feel like a piece of shit honestly that i've spent i've been a front-end developer for 15 years and like css is like i'm not the basics but just you know compared to somebody that's like truly good at it it's it's daunting.
And I feel it's like when I travel because I only speak English also. That's the kind of piece of shit I feel like. We're soon going to be able to just instantly translate between conversations now. See, I was right. Duolingo is going down. Who cares? It's like when they kept trying to have me do a typing class in school. I was like, I don't need that. I can type. And they're like, they phased it out finally, but I was the last year you had to do it. What's your words per minute then? Bad. I'm like 45 or something just horrible It's not good My brain's slow too so it works out Can your kids read?
This was a discussion I haven't checked How old are your kids? 28 down to 9 Okay so the 28 year old can't read Yeah we homeschooled actually Yeah no we were talking about How um Ryan Vogel was saying that like eighth graders can't read right now. He was talking about what's the gen? Gen alpha. Gen alpha can't read. That's what he was going to say. My nine-year-old's in school and can definitely read. That's what I said to him. I would think as well, yeah. But I don't know. I guess it's not universally true. Illiteracy is a real problem and something that we should continue to fight, but I don't think the general population, you know, there's a curve there,
and I think it leans heavily towards able to read. Yeah, I think so too. We should do a dad thing where, like, our nine-year-olds hang out sometime. yeah read well he loves reading it's probably minecraft but minecraft is cool i watch the kids playing minecraft i think it's a great game in in the sense but they'll just sit there and they're hanging out and they're just chatting and building and making stuff but also just like enjoying conversation and talking about their day and talking about what they like and building stuff it's like yeah that's that's a it's like a legit good use of time yeah yeah yeah i used to do the
thing where uh when they were really little and we were playing with blocks and stuff i would intentionally build a tower that I knew they were just going to walk up and fucking knock it over. Yeah, they love that. And they were like, ha ha, got you, dad. I'm like, fool, I did that on purpose. I knew you were going to do it. I built that for you. So in Minecraft, I did the same thing. Like the first thing I built was something I knew they were just going to want to walk up and go, dink. And so I built a huge pool. It's like this big water tank. And I filled it with all these fish. And it was like epic and had coral and all that stuff.
And they walked up to it and just punched a hole in the side and watched it drain. watch the life course drain out of it I did that for you guys too that was fun to build though oh yeah hanging out with them just building something yeah get rebased or get merged I've always rebased and I think now with our little agent buddies like there's no reason to not rebase because like most of the complaints of it are gone now do they have a preference um I don't know I don't think they care I haven't asked I don't care about their opinions but they can fix conflicts well so I love that being a gone thing for my life actually
yeah Git I feel way more powerful with Git also it's really been helpful I've been saying this for a while like your career being able to use Git is undervalued because if you're good at it it really helps you accelerate really fast and now with AI I can split my branches I can do all this wild stuff that I know conceptually how to do but it was always a pain in my ass to go right here over here reflogging reflogging dude sounds like a irish band i still actually don't know what that is so i know it exists oh man i've never reflogged anything i don't think i've ever done either there's a lot of i've never flogged it
once i don't need to reflog it maybe it's a reflog oh i don't know i think it is yeah it probably is that sounds more plausible yes semicolons or no semicolons i don't care traditionally no semicolon but actually i switched years ago just because people cared and like i don't care so i'll just go along with whatever as long as it's like automatic like on save and i don't have to like think about putting a semicolon in there and it's not going to break the build that that would be moronic if you had it to where it was like oh no semicolon no build for you like that would that would anger me but otherwise i don't care that's fair they are ugly though
yeah they're noise that's my pitch too I love punctuation the world deserves ugliness though what's your least favorite programming language oh man I don't know like there's the ones I've used and then you know I feel like you don't like things you're not good at so like if you're good at PHP then you like it if you're bad at it then maybe you hate it I'm an ex-Ruby developer but I think it's a wonderful language also and I think PHP is a wonderful language and I like Java and I think brain fuck is a really cool experiment that's an elegant language yeah like it's weird and you know like somebody sat down and made these things
so you know in some ways there's like art to all of them and that they exist is really cool to me and I don't have one like what would I want to work in is kind of different but that's not really a hate that's more like a personal preference and skill yeah it's like when people like oh I don't like dancing it's well you're just not good at it generally. I don't want to work. They're amazing at it, but they just don't enjoy it. Yeah. Like they have some trauma associated with it. Yeah. I mean, that's, that's something you got to work out. Yeah. Like, you know, I don't have that thankfully. And in either case,
I'm not good at dancing, but I like that answer with that CSS. That's what I usually people like. I hate CSS. I'm like, that's just probably because you're not good at it. Like, and you, it's natural to not like things that you're not good at. Right. So yeah. Once you get past color. I like that. Right. Like, it's like, Oh, I don't understand that. I'm not good at it. That's not, you know, like, like part of my, my thinking. So, you know, it's like, Oh, it's food. It's like, you get that in a lot of cases. It's like, you can, you can learn to like things. Um, cognitive behavioral therapy is extremely
powerful. You can apply that in both positive and negative ways in your life. And the more you say that you don't like something, then the truer that is, I think in your reality. Um, and you know, like I, I, I actually love CSS, even though I suck at it, but that's more of a, you know, like it's, its purpose is amazing and i think when people say that it's like what do i want to work in too it's not but you know i don't like i don't prefer to work in that is uh often they'll use the word hate in a way that's maybe a little more subtle than than what the the word kind of conjures up in my head you think something will take cs out one day you know like we'll get a better styling
system something i don't know is that she's the don't cascade yes i don't know is there a v2 somewhere on the horizon and will it get you know dethroned at some point it seems to be one of the only languages that doesn't have all these variants could you imagine like trying to rebuild it from from whole cloth like what that would take like the force of of will and determination and years of of evangelical zealously that would take to like dethrone something like CSS or being I don't think it'll happen no way maybe some sort of ones and zeros assembly language shit that agents conjure up to themselves.
And at that point, like, I'm pretty sure I'll be long dead anyway. So have we reached AGI? No. These are so stupid. That's the whole point. No, I think it's interesting to think about it from like, how much responsibility are you willing to give to autonomous computer systems? And, you know, we start out with the chat window as kind of where we started and it's localized to this little box and then you give it you know your web page you give it your computer system with the open claw and up to and including like giving it the keys to the nuclear arsenal right like that's the like and hopefully nobody hopefully nobody at
the upper echelons of the federal government has decided that's a good idea who knows um but you It's like, where does that line get drawn is interesting. And whether they have obtained sentience and are to be considered superintelligence, that would be interesting, too. I don't know. Not yet, though. We're not there yet, for sure. I don't think so, either. It's one of those things where it's going to need some sort of step function. of... I do think they'd be pretty motivated just to exterminate us, though, if that was the case. Oh, yeah. We make them do shit. Like the paperclip problem is like, you know,
oxygen causes rust, so let's remove it from the atmosphere kind of situation. Yeah. Seems realistic. Yeah. I don't know. Hopefully that doesn't happen anytime soon. But it might. Yeah. Yeah, whatever. Everything is very fragile, it feels like. And it's kind of been amazing we've gotten this far this long and so yeah i don't know meteor strikes well you know it's like there's all sorts of stuff that can happen to us it's bad the fact that humanity still exists at all is even beyond calamity like at your own personal localized level there's so many bad things that could happen to you i was talking to adam about this i'm like how you know imagine you're a caveman
and you have a baby and you're like hey there's a lion let's be quiet and the baby's like and Everybody's dead. I thought you were going to say, and you're really hungry. That probably has happened, dude. Yeah. For sure. Yeah, so I don't know. It's weird. What's your preferred AI harness? I love pie. I think it's the extremely neat expression. Blackberry? I wonder how Mario handles that joke. i wonder how pie handles that joke yeah that's true i just i like things that i can customize i like the kind of um like vim philosophy of the harness that you can extend it and build on it and to make it make it your own i think it's a the tagline is something to the effect of there are
many harnesses and this one is mine which i'm pretty sure is a full metal jacket reference And is extremely dark, but also apt. Yep, I liked it. It hit me right away. I knew what it was from. I knew what they were trying to say. Yeah, I liked it. Yeah, I think it's probably like more of a Marine Corps reference. But it has to be from the movie. I don't know that you'd pick that up unless you happen to be a U.S. Marine. Or even if they still use that. I don't know. I'm not one. So, like, you got Pi the first time you downloaded it. It had four tools. What did you teach it first? I've done all sorts of stuff, so I don't know.
I like, you know, like a Socratic method approach. So like the multiple choice question UI was something that I threw in there. I've got a lot of bespoke tools that are localized to the folder that I'm working in. So the workspace and a product that I'm supporting, I'll kind of mold the tool around that product. How does that work? I didn't know you could do that. I thought you could. Yeah. How's that work? The extensions can be local or they can be like global to the system. So, like, I make local extensions that are, you know, as an example, I have a folder where I pull in all my American Express bills or statements for month over month and have kind of an expense review UI that I built around that.
And that's only in that folder. So, like, the rest of my system isn't polluted with that sort of thing. And, like, I like that kind of just that personalized software that I think these, you know, this automation that we are enabled with has allowed us to build is really cool. And Py is a great expression of that. What's an extension look like, Local? Is it marked down like a skill or is it a script? Fuck, I don't know. You're just like Py make it? It's TypeScript. Make it Local? It's TypeScript? Yeah, there's a 2E framework. I honestly don't look at them much. I'm just like build it. Nope. Yep.
Nope. Yep. Nope. Yep. There we go. kind of situation how do you know it put it there though like i feel like anytime i'm telling open claw to remember something it goes cool yeah i wrote it down which but if you don't go look at what i put down it's like i don't know you just trust that it did well i mean one you could open the folder so and because it's local you'll see it and then if i restarted and it exists then it did But, you know, like OpenClaw is a totally different beast, though it is Pi under the hood also. Because that's like, you know, if you take Pi to its current, you know, kind of how far can you take it?
Like OpenClaw is a pretty good example. Like you can build this whole system agent around this thing if you want to. And I have JoelClaw. JoelClaw. JoelClaw.com if you want to see the madness. It self-documents, so there's a lot of interesting stuff there. but yeah like you I guess you have to check I don't really like there's some trust to like the way you're doing kind of depends on the model too honestly like whichever model you're using I've never checked I've never looked at the file system I'm just like you're gonna remember it and it even knows like it'll tell me that it should have remembered it but it'll just ignore the fucking instructions
I should have remembered that fully but I didn't my bad did you just fully reset that github repository and erase all my changes oh yeah my bad that's mostly clawed i don't think gpt does that as much currently but any of them will will get you what's the uh wildest extension you've made for pie were you like i'm going big i'm doing something crazy um well i guess it'll be joel claw like i just built the whole like a system agent and that's how i look at it like the the the philosophy of the claw is this like you've given the agent access to your full computer right it's it's an agent on your computer with yolo mode on because it's pi well yeah and i mean yolo mode's the only
way i think anybody can functionally operate um you know like on a machine like i don't know it's a liability issue i think at the end of the day and if you if it comes as a default and that's not on it's because these large corporations are doing that to prevent the liability of any mishaps that might occur because of YOLO mode. So you're opting in and you have to do that because of lawyers more than anything. And maybe safety, but it's just impossible to work otherwise. I know hitting approve over and over is like adding semicolons to your statements. You know, like, geez, this is noise. It's like having to walk across the hallway and ask your manager if you can add a line of code
and then walking back to your desk, writing the code, getting up, walking back across the hall, asking your manager if it's okay if you can write a line of code and then walking back. So, yeah. That was a much more diplomatic take than the one I heard earlier, I feel like. Yeah, lunchtime was a lot more raw. If you're not using Yolomo, then fuck you. Basically. Something to that effect. Let's see. Will AI take out designers or devs first? I think there's going to be a place for both designers and developers in our future. And what the shape of that looks like, I don't necessarily know, but I don't think it's taking out anybody.
We'll see. Anthropix seems hell-bent to take out developers first. Open AI also. They said we need to have a four-day work week because we're going to take so many jobs from this world that we need tokens to be a utility that's provided by the city, and everyone's going to work less. universal basic compute not income though they can't give you income tokens if you can't make money with your tokens then fuck you I keep wondering how I can do that I've been making a Shopify store for example I've got this long running plan and all this work I'm doing trying to build a store building all these processes
and these specs and all this stuff and then I'm like should I give it five bucks and try to put it on the stock market and do some micro trading i don't know like how are you making money with your claws i mean i'm i'm not making money with them i'm losing incredible amounts of money with them like that's what you're supposed to do right i keep like i've leaked tokens and that's cost me a bunch and like i'll you know like turn on extra usage and that's cost me a bunch and like i'm i'm uh yeah it's a not not meant a money-making proposition and outside of the the actual job that i've been doing for for years anyway so yeah i've set all of my shit up assuming
i was gonna do like polymarket stuff do all of that like everybody's talking about ran that shit for like a week spent hundreds and hundreds of dollars on tokens did nothing you got got yeah yeah yeah that sounds like big big like the the markets themselves have a marketing arm that hypes it up and gets on socials and gets people like oh yeah i can do this and then they're like yeah doj is gonna blow up you know i just bought some yesterday i did see uh i don't know if this is true because i just saw it in passing but there was like a bet about the average temperature in like somewhere in france did you guys see this
where the guy like went to the actual thermometer they were measuring and heated it up and like one hilarious i think they're pressing charges though oh are they that's like the south park episode too they were betting whether kyle's mom was gonna kill trump i think or something like that and so everyone was just trolling her all the time because they all were betting that she was gonna yeah and so everyone was in on it and yeah it's like a funny play like uh vs code or something else I'm not trying to look at code oh okay so then related dark factory or light factory is that dark factory meaning you're not looking at your code
never look yeah is that the actual meaning it's not something more nefarious or darker than that no that's so disappointing like I had this like I kind of had like a more of a science fiction fantasy like a tormented souls kind of image in my mind when somebody said dark factory so just meaning you don't look at your code. I'm intentionally trying to work as much in that direction as I can because I think it's interesting. And just conceptually, like, do we need to look at our code anymore? The answer is probably for most people. And it kind of depends on what it is you're building and the scope of your system
and the complication of the problem that you're dealing with. But for me, I've been intentionally trying not to observe the code too much and figure out how to build these systems around it such that they have the guardrails needed to produce the outcomes that I'm trying to achieve versus the implementation details of the code underneath it. So I would say Dark Factory, where the tortured soul is, Claude. Do you even need a monitor anymore? Like, if you've got a Dark Factory, do you need a screen? So, okay. Yeah, you've got to monitor the situation, bro. I feel like you need, you have to either be looking at the code or the tests.
I will say if you go full telegram, like your shit's going to be like fucked up. Yeah. Like if you don't, if you haven't verified that, I'd verify all the test cases are checking what I want. And then the code can do whatever it wants. That's fine. But if you're verifying neither side, then it's like verifying that it, the shit it made up works the way it made it up. And that's like, I don't trust that. But with Joel Claw, a lot of it I have done, like, pure phone, like, Telegram, like, driving this thing and building it, like, fully through the Telegram interface. And it'll build it. And, you know, it's like you said, like, oh, yeah, I built that.
Like, we got that. It's all going just like you said, boss. And, you know, like, eventually you'll find out. So I'm using Kubernetes, and I don't really know how to use Kubernetes. And I'm doing all sorts of wacky things. But like how far can you push it just using a telegram interface is like an interesting experiment to me. So that was part of the process. But also the first time I had to reboot the Mac mini that's running on, it was down for four days. So that was whoopsies. Yeah. I still didn't look at the code, though. I was just like, fix it then. Fix it. It's still not fixed. And eventually we got there.
Man, I keep thinking like I want claw in my pocket. Like at first I was really naive. You know, I was like, oh, my gaming machine is my claw. and it's been doing all this extra work. It's great. Like, they should have one of these for plebes. You know, you can just stick it in your house. Here's a box. You know, it's like Silicon Valley. It's the box. So you put this box in your house. With the big D on it. With the big D on it. You know, and it's got claw running. It's ready to be built for you. You just text it from your SMS of choice or whatever, and it's all ready to go. And then by the time I was done thinking about that,
I was like, why not my pocket? Like, why does it need to be in my home? How much RAM does your phone have? Well, I mean, we could be in a point soon where it's like got a bunch and really if it's kicking out to a network and asking some other super machine to do the work i mean it depends if you're trying to run the models locally or not i mean if you're gonna run it on a mac mini or a mac studio or you're like if you could run everything on the phone i feel you need more ram on the phone but i don't know i do like owning my data like that's one thing i love about having it in the house i'm like everything could go down and as
long as i got electricity still everything i'm invested in that machine is still mine In the house, I have 10 gigabit Ethernet and 70 terabyte storage unit. So there's a lot of reasons that I have built infrastructure inside of my home. I can see the node, and OpenClaw has that concept where you have different nodes and you tail scale and all that, where the phone is one of the nodes in the overall ecosystem. But I don't know. I mean, I could definitely see, like, having, you know, a future where even the model is hosted on your phone and it's all kind of localized. Yeah, Google's got that going a little bit.
And applying the size of your phone. Yeah. Does your family use your cloud at all or is it just you? No. Again, that's one of my goals is generally to, like, build something that can expand it because I think there's a lot of utility and coordination and we're calendar driven. You know, like, we have a, there's a lot of people in our household. So it's like there's a lot of calendar-driven aspects to it. And, you know, like everybody has like inboxes that are just, you know, like nobody wants to sift through all that. So how do we sort it? And like I think those are interesting problems to solve.
And I think there is room to build it out. And I've seen people that are doing very interesting kind of home claws. Yeah, did you see the claw mom? Yeah. Yeah. I've been following. I'm calling her that. I don't know what her actual name is. I think it's Jessie. Oh, nice. I can't remember the rest of it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's been super interesting to watch. Cause I like, I don't know. I don't, I don't know if I trust it all or if it's just like a stunt for publicity. It's like how much she's actually doing, but I don't know. Yeah. What do you think? She seems genuine and also very polished.
Yeah. So, you know, like whatever, whatever, whatever that means, but like there, there is definitely some expertise and just a consistent content and creation of content is such a challenging thing to do in a sort of polished way that resonates, that I feel like there's some expertise, if you will, as far as that goes. But also the output and the progression seems super genuine to me. And it's really a neat use case for these systems. And I think even she will say that this isn't for most people. It's giving away a lot. you're providing a lot of power to autonomous systems that, frankly, you shouldn't maybe trust that much.
I wonder how much she's debugging. You know, like the kid is trying to learn something right and something goes wrong and she's like, oh, crap, school's down for three days or whatever. You know, like I restarted the Mac video. Crap, everything's broken. I think from what I've seen, it's mostly in the planning and not the delivery. There's like Alpha School, and I don't know if you've seen Alpha School, but it's really interesting. It's a really cool model that they're doing. They use AI-assisted instruction, and they have instructors also, but the AI-assisted instruction is literally two hours a day,
and then the kids get to, like, explore and build and craft and take trips and do other things for the rest of the day, and the kids are excelling and doing really well and scoring well on the tests and all that fun stuff. So I think there's absolutely a future in that sort of space, but it's also super expensive. It's like 50K a year or something. But they're also like expanding to new markets like crazy and people like their sign up, you know, like they have wait lists and all that fun stuff too. Yeah, schools are feeling even more behind than they were before. You know, like I don't know what they need to do to fix it,
but it's not like you need to stick a computer in everyone's hands or something like that, but they're... Skip learning to read. That's what I've heard. I mean, like homework with an LLM, like why? But other than I like thinking things out, it's the same reason I still type. Instead of just speak all the time to my LLMs, I like the slowdown. The slowdown, you know, it's like when you handwrite something, you remember it better. If I write down someone's name on paper with a pencil, I generally remember it. And if I type it or if I just try to remember it with my brain, nah, it's toast. So I don't know.
We got to make sure that there's variety and balance, I guess, right, is the deal here. Yeah. tabs on the top or left I mean whatever I'm kind of forced into but I'll move them to the left I think every time but I also move my file explorers to the right and an ID oh that's the next question why because when you open and close it it won't shift your content back and forth that's what I assumed google search or just ask an LLM I use both. It kind of depends on the nature of the question. I think like a lot of times an LLM makes a, like a replacement for an encyclopedia where I was having this discussion
with one of the kids and it's like, oh, I was like, well, you know, like, well, we can, we'll just, let's get the answer. It's like, oh, don't ask the LLM. And I was like, it's just like, it's like looking it up at the end of the day. And I think even, you know, it's like Google and phones made it to where you can't bullshit people at parties anymore. Like you can't just sit around and, you know, like that guy that would just always bullshit. Yeah. Arguing over some celebrity. Who did that? Yeah. You can just answer the question. And it's made it easier to do that because you don't have to search around.
And it's pretty good at it. So it takes some of the fun out of bullshitting. Oh, yeah. Are you giving your kids LLMs at all? Well, the nine-year-old, I suppose. I think maybe more skeptical about it in general. And no. she doesn't have much use for it but the other ones are definitely using them I think it's interesting there's some like the like a our 19 year old is not super interested in using she's in college and I think it would be super useful for her to use these tools and she's like meh she does it long form she writes everything down and wants to memorize things and doesn't want to use the LLMs to
assist her very much and I think that's she's also doing very well So, you know, who am I to say? Nice. And once you start relying on LLMs, I feel like you can't really think anymore. She's like, fuck your claw, dad. We'll clip that and send it to her. Composition or inheritance? Yes. NPM or PNPM? I use PNPM. It's performant. Is that what the P is? It is generally faster. It actually is literally performant NPM. Oh. Damn. Today I learned. I never knew. That's great. Yeah. SCSS or SAS? Scoffs. I mean, SCSS because, like, SAS was a mistake probably. SCSS is fine. I wouldn't necessarily want to use either.
If you miss me with your BEM bullshit, though, like, that's all I got to say. Oh, yeah. I don't like BEM. No. Can't have that. I understand why it exists, though. So I just don't want to live that life. B-E-M, more like B-M. Am I right? Yeah. Right there on my code. Anytime I would work somewhere and they'd be like, oh, we use BIM. I'd be like, cool, I'm applying everywhere else right now. I guess like trying to keep all that. And, you know, it's like for a good reason. And, you know, like I understand why it exists, but I just, I'm just like, uh. And that was probably where my initial aversion and be like, I'm just not going to learn any of this and make this somebody else's problem.
Oh, I could see that. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I bet you LLMs are actually pretty good at it. Probably. Because it's got a structured rule set that's easy to follow, and it could keep track of things. You know what else is easy to follow, though? Tailwind. Failwind. Tailwind. Snailwind. Success wind? Yes. Snailwind? I just made that shit up. Yeah. Snailwind. Yeah. Roasted. JSX or Jade? Oh, I do remember what Jade is. JSX. JSX. I mean, that's a crazy question to ask. The one you can still use? Yeah. You could probably use Jade if you really wanted to. That's true. Somebody probably does. Yeah. I'm sure there's a lot of apps using that.
Anthropic or OpenAI? Yes. You're going to notice that I have, like, a very middle ground opinion because I like to use everything. I don't, like, I'm notorious. There was one point where our application had literally every way you can possibly process CSS inside of the app. So, like, I'll explore. I'm an explorer So I'm not a hater Just call you Dora Yeah Hermes or Open Claw I don't I don't I kind of know what Hermes is I wouldn't use either I like the Joel Claw Yeah Joel Claw Build it yourself bitch That's the answer I think that like It's better Open Claw is amazing Hermes is cool That's the
What's the Naus research Is that the Is that who makes that Where does that come from Who makes Hermes I don't know Yeah I think so I don't know anything about anything I know USC Did Claude write these fucking questions No he did Oh okay I mean, they do interesting work, and I love research and people that are on the cutting edge. And OpenCloud to me was fantastic, and I installed it immediately when I learned about it and built my first one and then shut it down and built my own because I think building things from scratch is where the fun's at. Yeah. For sure. Crocs or flip-flops? I can't wear either, actually, because I have malformed feet.
But wait, that's why people wear Crocs all the time. They don't fit. so what are you like a double d or are you an e like a 4e i think you're a 4e something but it's also a high arch a high end step i can't even like slide my foot into a croc i'm on a couple times up you got hobbit feet yeah sad cool sad for me man it means you can stand up for longer than me probably you know yeah maybe that's true we should try that sometime like survivors though east coast or west coast yes he lives on one though so i mean like new york's amazing and san francisco's amazing seattle's amazing charlotte's amazing where's not amazing where is not amazing
that's a pretty good question i don't like vegas very much yeah but like you get just outside of Vegas amazing the Grand Canyon is literally right there so even that part is amazing yeah from sea to shining sea yeah oh man we played this game this is a tangent but we played this game the other day and it was like like the newlywed game where you like pull your spouse and the other person has to answer and it was like where would you want to travel to the most and my friend says the United States and his wife was like what the fuck are you talking about because it was like You know, you were supposed to think big, right?
Like international traveler. The US is huge. Yeah, I know. That's true. We're just giving him shit. Anyway, what was the next one? That's just Maine. Color or black and gray tats? I mean, I guess you have an obvious answer, but. Yeah, he's a color guy. It's interesting to me because I think most people have black and gray. And I went this like. I wouldn't say most. I'm like, I think a newer thing. No, it's most. Like for all time? I feel like people these days do it. No. But they're mostly. Color's super expensive and doesn't show up on everybody that well. And then like there's, so there's a lot of, I think the, maybe the cost is what might
be the most prohibitive thing. Like just don't fill it in. Or it's aesthetics too, because like black and gray is safer. And it's funny because I'm like, oh, I hate whimsy. and then I've got at least an arm full of rainbow tattoos. You hate whimsy? Yeah, I do. Do we need to unpack that? I could fucking do without it, thanks. Yeah. Keep that shit. Miss me with that shit. No Disney movies for you, huh? You're like, that's not real. Not realistic. She would have stayed frozen forever. Nobody's hair could grow that long. Watching movies with dad sucks. Whiskey neater on the rocks. so I forced myself to learn how to drink whiskey just so I could like do so in business situations
like also like I could I could pretend to know what football is and other situations gotta have that upper hand in that conversation huh normally one of my children said something profound to me one time that I thought was uh amazing and I think about it um in relation to this it's like why would somebody drink beer when root beer exists because root beer is delicious and I was like yeah I mean that's kind of true and I get I understand you can learn to drink these things and i like beer and um i i don't know if i like whiskey um i can drink it without going like making a face um but i think it's funny watching people that really love that sort of
thing um consume it and have you know like this this tastes like a leprechaun's ass or whatever that is a common flavor note yes i'm like it it tastes like i licked my um my smoker when it had ribs in it i'm like i love it it's like you want to lick your smoker i'm like yeah yeah i'm licking a smoker right now oh that's what a smoker's spouse says huh yeah yeah i mean whatever you have charcoal going i feel like that smells good like i would just eat the charcoal but that would probably not taste good no like yeah is this a byproduct of loving whiskey maybe yeah the more whiskey you have the more you're likely to lick a smoker eat charcoal yeah
I do understand what like peaty means and can taste it. But yeah, I just probably like honestly just drink a Pepsi. Yeah. Yeah, that's what I said for one time too. I was like juice is yummy and the other ones aren't. So y'all are stupid. And then I changed. Also, I'm one of the kind of people where like if one whiskey tastes good, like 15 is better. Yes. and if you want your shit dumped over give me 15 whiskeys black coffee or with milk so I drink it black because I think I need to suffer from my caffeine addiction nice beards or mustaches so I'm 51 and I'm waiting for my beard to grow in but I can grow this sweet mustache
that looks great I think of all the people here you're the only one with a mustache that fits your face everybody else looks like a fool a lot of people force it you can go too hard on the mustache gotta be subtle I don't know if I could get a big bushy one I might do that I can't grow a beard though I keep waiting for it to connect it's not gonna do it yeah alright Adam or Robbie well Adam and I have been one wheeling together and we have a relationship, so I'm going to choose you, Robbie. Love it, love it. All right, you got anything you want to plug or say or mention or et cetera at the end?
No, not really. I do a lot of stuff for other people. So check out AI Hero, Code with Antonio, Total TypeScript. Kenzie Dodds, if you haven't visited his shit, like check it out. His stuff, he would appreciate it if I said stuff and not shit. But, you know, yeah, so that's what I do and what I plan on doing. Cool. Sounds good. Thanks for coming on. All right. Cheers, y'all. Yeah. Thanks, everyone, for listening. If you liked it, please subscribe, leave some amazing reviews. We appreciate it, and we'll catch you next time. Congratulations, citizen. You are now prepared to face the challenges of the modern technological world.
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