214: npm Worms & RubyGems Coups: Trust Issues in Open Source

[00:00:00] Intro: Welcome to Syntax. Welcome to a brand new episode of the Front End Happy Hour podcast. Welcome to this week’s JS Party. Live from Ship Shape Studios, this is Whiskey Web and Whatnot. With your hosts, Robbie the Wagner, and me, Charles William Carpenter III. That’s right Charles. We drink whiskey and talk about web development.

[00:00:27] Intro: I mean, it’s all in the name. It’s not that deep. This is Whiskey Web and Whatnot. Do not adjust your set.

[00:00:36] Robbie Wagner: What’s up everybody? Welcome to Whiskey Web and whatnot with your hosts, RobbieTheWagner, Charles William Carpenter III and Adam Thomas Argyle, The Nerd.

[00:00:46] Chuck Carpenter: Damnit. I, I thought I’d get to be the guest today. Oh, well, maybe another time.

[00:00:51] Robbie Wagner: All the hosts are here, man.

[00:00:53] Chuck Carpenter: all

[00:00:53] Chuck Carpenter: the, all the, hosts be hosting.

[00:00:56] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, we do be hosting.

[00:00:57] Chuck Carpenter: Hmm. Might as well call [00:01:00] us GoDaddy.

[00:01:02] Adam Argyle: Ooh,

[00:01:04] Chuck Carpenter: We’re all daddies. I don’t know. Just gonna

[00:01:07] Robbie Wagner: Oh yeah. What a name for a domain or hosting, whatever they

[00:01:12] Chuck Carpenter: and, yeah, they’re a domain

[00:01:14] Robbie Wagner: call themselves that?

[00:01:16] Chuck Carpenter: I don’t know. And I used to work there. , Great question. Bob

[00:01:19] Robbie Wagner: Did they have blackjack there?

[00:01:21] Chuck Carpenter: Yes, they did. Bob Parsons was the founder and he was, he founded, uh, or he was like a co-founder of Intuit. And then once he sold that, he started GoDaddy.

[00:01:33] Adam Argyle: Sounds like a phrase people yelled at him that he just loved. He was like, yeah, I love it when you

[00:01:37] Adam Argyle: tell me

[00:01:37] Adam Argyle: to

[00:01:37] Chuck Carpenter: GoDaddy. Yeah. ‘cause he’s, you know, older gentleman and maybe that was part of it. I mean, we, we saw many of the commercials that kind of play onto that. They actually started as an ISP though too. And then kind of pivoted to a registrar later. I don’t know. No, no idea.

[00:01:54] Adam Argyle: The only worst name is Log Rocket.

[00:01:57] Adam Argyle: You’re like, oh, just a, just a turd shooting out an [00:02:00] ass, huh? That’s your company

[00:02:01] Adam Argyle: name.

[00:02:01] Adam Argyle: Log Rocket.

[00:02:02] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. I’ve had a lot of fiber log, rocket had a bunch, bunch of apples today, some broccoli, anyway. Wow. So this is the, this show’s really gone downhill since I last listened.

[00:02:13] Robbie Wagner: yep.

[00:02:14] Robbie Wagner: , You know what else has gone downhill? Our whiskey budget.

[00:02:21] Chuck Carpenter: Well, today, Bob, I’ll be having, uh, stuff I made in my bathtub. or

[00:02:28] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. No, this is Evan Williams, Kentucky, straight bourbon whiskey. It is 86 proof, not age stated, but probably around five years old from what I’m told. And it is 78% corn, 10% rye, and 12% malted barley.

[00:02:42] Chuck Carpenter: Look at you. Yeah, so this is a real, it’s a bottom shelfer, but it’s got a plastic cap, but a glass bottle. you could do worse. That’s what I think. Oh

[00:02:53] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah.

[00:02:53] Robbie Wagner: There is definitely worse than this. Ooh, I poured a lot of

[00:02:55] Robbie Wagner: that.

[00:02:56] Chuck Carpenter: I got a light. Slight cola, cola flavor or [00:03:00] smell to this flavor. I don’t know. I haven’t even had

[00:03:02] Chuck Carpenter: any yet. I had a one glass of wine with dinner, which was three hours, four hours ago.

[00:03:09] Robbie Wagner: Smells like dried apricots.

[00:03:11] Adam Argyle: It smells like, , rubbing alcohol, which must be the cheapness of it. It’s like you’re not disguising, that

[00:03:17] Adam Argyle: very

[00:03:17] Chuck Carpenter: It smells like rich mahogany, kind of like my apartment.

[00:03:22] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, I can’t smell very much. I’ve been a little bit sick, so,

[00:03:25] Chuck Carpenter: Hmm. It’s all the cocaine,

[00:03:27] Adam Argyle: It’s going around sickness going around. My kids are sick. My wife was sick. I dodged the bullets all the

[00:03:32] Adam Argyle: time.

[00:03:32] Adam Argyle: I’m

[00:03:32] Chuck Carpenter: so you’re not down

[00:03:33] Adam Argyle: with

[00:03:33] Adam Argyle: like germs that I’m just like, ha Oh yeah. Down with the sickness. Oh

[00:03:37] Adam Argyle: yeah.

[00:03:37] Chuck Carpenter: Hmm. yeah.

[00:03:38] Chuck Carpenter: See, you

[00:03:38] Robbie Wagner: yeah. Or you’re just bringing sicknesses home and are asymptomatic and you’re like, I don’t know,

[00:03:45] Chuck Carpenter: okay. I’ve got one, I’ve got something here. It kind of smells like, , you know, those like old gum packs? Like you, uh, I don’t know. You had the, like a mint one

[00:03:56] Chuck Carpenter: and

[00:03:56] Adam Argyle: on it? Oh

[00:03:57] Adam Argyle: yeah.

[00:03:57] Chuck Carpenter: all the zebra ones. Yeah, but doesn’t smell, there’s like [00:04:00] Wrigley, not Wrigley Chew. Yeah, maybe like Wrigley Chew or something like that, which is almost like they put sugar on like an old baseball glove and then had you chew that a little bit for a minute and it smelled like gummy.

[00:04:12] Chuck Carpenter: I don’t know. It was like, it smells like that.

[00:04:15] Robbie Wagner: I think that might have been before my time. I dunno what you’re talking about. Uh, I know like a bazooka gum, like I’m guessing not similar to

[00:04:23] Chuck Carpenter: Not that, not pink, it was like a tan colored gum, but it was like in the five pack flat, like things

[00:04:31] Adam Argyle: Oh, was it yellow?

[00:04:32] Chuck Carpenter: yeah.

[00:04:33] Adam Argyle: There was a really cheap yellow pack that had kind of beige gum. Oh, I, I ate a lot of it. It was really cheap. It was pennies

[00:04:41] Adam Argyle: at

[00:04:42] Chuck Carpenter: cheap. It was like nothing you, you’d like big red, which would be like the cinnamon gum. And then you had like this, and like a green one too. I can’t remember, uh, what they were all called. But see, I’m not craz and it’s not just for really old people, which I, I did get older the other [00:05:00] day and I have yet to receive my card from either of you, which is like ridiculous. Um,

[00:05:06] Chuck Carpenter: I was looking out, every day I’m running out and I’m like, maybe today, maybe one day later. No, never came. So here we are. I only showed up just to make you all feel bad anyway. Yeah, that’s

[00:05:19] Adam Argyle: love it. You can’t get away. It’s just too good. Um, was it double? Double Mint. Wrigley’s. Double

[00:05:24] Adam Argyle: mint.

[00:05:25] Chuck Carpenter: Okay, so the double mint I thought was the

[00:05:27] Chuck Carpenter: green

[00:05:27] Chuck Carpenter: pack. Yeah, that’s the

[00:05:29] Robbie Wagner: Double min.

[00:05:30] Adam Argyle: Yellow

[00:05:30] Adam Argyle: Pack. Ju

[00:05:31] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah.

[00:05:32] Adam Argyle: Juicy Fruit, bro. Juicy

[00:05:34] Chuck Carpenter: Fruit. Was it

[00:05:35] Adam Argyle: Wrigley’s Juicy Fruit. It’s the yellow one. And yeah, dude, it would lose its flavor in five seconds. It was

[00:05:39] Adam Argyle: like

[00:05:40] Adam Argyle: the

[00:05:41] Chuck Carpenter: how they got so

[00:05:41] Chuck Carpenter: rich,

[00:05:42] Robbie Wagner: so I know what juicy fruit is. I was unaware of That’s what you were trying to describe.

[00:05:47] Chuck Carpenter: But what it, it smelled like not fruity, it smelled kind of gummy and I don’t

[00:05:52] Robbie Wagner: Oh, it’s pretty not great. All of those gums were like, Hey, this is awesome for like the first chew, and then it’s like, [00:06:00] you know what? I’ve wanted to spit this out for the last 30 minutes, but I haven’t been near a trash can. So.

[00:06:06] Chuck Carpenter: And you’re like, you didn’t just swallow it. You’re like, I don’t want this going through my,

[00:06:10] Robbie Wagner: It stays there for seven years, man, you can’t do it.

[00:06:13] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, that’s

[00:06:13] Chuck Carpenter: what they

[00:06:13] Adam Argyle: days. Yeah.

[00:06:15] Chuck Carpenter: That’s how those Wrigleys got so rich though. You know, they set up the, the, the, the field. Actually

[00:06:20] Chuck Carpenter: there’s a rig.

[00:06:21] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, there’s a Wrigley mansion in, in, Phoenix. , Looked at it as a wedding venue at some point, but did not opt for it, but have been to dinner there would recommend.

[00:06:32] Adam Argyle: Sounds

[00:06:33] Adam Argyle: like it’d

[00:06:33] Adam Argyle: be sticky, sticky

[00:06:34] Adam Argyle: place

[00:06:34] Adam Argyle: to

[00:06:34] Robbie Wagner: I’ve, I’ve

[00:06:35] Robbie Wagner: been tasting this.

[00:06:36] Adam Argyle: It’s like a, you open up a a box of cinnamon toast Crunch, and then you lick the inside of the cardboard, and then that’s what you got here.

[00:06:45] Chuck Carpenter: I don’t think I can do better than that description. I’m gonna

[00:06:48] Chuck Carpenter: be

[00:06:48] Robbie Wagner: is pretty accurate. If you added a little more bitterness than what I would imagine the cardboard would taste like, that is a very spot on flavor.

[00:06:57] Chuck Carpenter: yeah, yeah. Like [00:07:00] this is not a sipper necessarily, so, but we’ll see. I don’t like wasting, so we’ll, we’ll see how that goes, but. It’s not horrible, but it is like strange to call this whiskey. it is better

[00:07:13] Adam Argyle: not better with water.

[00:07:14] Chuck Carpenter: No. Okay. Yeah. Like maybe with ice or something.

[00:07:18] Adam Argyle: No, I’ve got it on ice. I have one of each. I have a, I have a neat, and I have one with a, it was a bucket of ice and I poured some in and Wow.

[00:07:24] Adam Argyle: I, no, I prefer the neat.

[00:07:26] Robbie Wagner: oh, maybe if you dilute it with a different whiskey,

[00:07:29] Robbie Wagner: it’ll

[00:07:30] Chuck Carpenter: Hmm. Yeah. Maybe if you dump it out and pour in better whiskey, it will be like much better, I think. yeah. Okay. Well, I mean, I don’t know who’s, uh, we’re all really loving this first. , I haven’t heard this yet, I don’t think. Not for a while. I mean, not ever, but, but not for a while.

[00:07:50] Chuck Carpenter: Adam, could you explain to me, remind me what the rating system is? ‘cause I, I just, I’m trying to place this and I can’t remember what to do.

[00:07:58] Adam Argyle: Thank you, Chuck. I have been dying [00:08:00] for you to ask me this question my whole life.

[00:08:03] Adam Argyle: It’s zero to eight tentacles. Zero being I wouldn’t even clean my toilet with. I wouldn’t even pour that on my enemy’s face. four being middle of the road, huh? You know, it was whiskey. They did it great. Unexciting. , Maybe I’ll give it away.

[00:08:16] Adam Argyle: Eight being clear the shelves. This is all I want for the rest of my entire life of whiskey. This is it. So zero to eight.

[00:08:23] Chuck Carpenter: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. That gives me better context.

[00:08:27] Chuck Carpenter: Does that, I guess I should start. Sure. I’ll go, I, I did ask for the system. Okay. I don’t think I would pour this on my enemy’s face or in the toilet. , That’s pretty extreme. I’m probably gonna keep drinking it throughout this hour. but beyond that, who knows?

[00:08:42] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. It is a. Very cinnamon taste. It, uh, feels very lightly aged. It’s got way too much burn for an 86 proofer.

[00:08:53] Chuck Carpenter: And, uh, I find it difficult to say like, well, maybe this would be okay in this [00:09:00] cocktail. don’t know what you guys paid, but, , it was like 20, I don’t know, let’s say 22 euros. , Conversion is impossible for me.

[00:09:08] Chuck Carpenter: but in that price point, give or take, there’s, I mean even just like a Jack Daniels or something of that like nature, like pretty basic, much better than this. So I’m gonna go two, I’m giving it a two. It’s not great. Would not pick up again. I feel like in the lower shelf. Evan could have done a better job.

[00:09:31] Chuck Carpenter: This is the black label to be clearer. So in these lower ones, there’s actually a green label in a white label, and I am certain that those are better. So look for those if, you see those instead. Yeah. Two, I’m going to,

[00:09:47] Robbie Wagner: All right. Yeah. I am similarly not impressed. , I don’t think I’m gonna give it a two though. Two is a little harsh, although the flavor of this is also harsh. So let’s say three

[00:09:58] Adam Argyle: Nice. I liked your [00:10:00] comment about it not being aged long enough. Is that why it’s still so rubbing alcohol and not, it doesn’t

[00:10:07] Robbie Wagner: that

[00:10:08] Adam Argyle: by the barrel. It doesn’t

[00:10:09] Adam Argyle: taste,

[00:10:10] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, it contributes. I think it’s cheaper ingredients. I think like everything about it is like a skimp and that’s why it’s cheap. But you can do better for cheap, so.

[00:10:21] Adam Argyle: Nice. Yeah, I’m, uh, I’m happy to have tasted something. Not good. ‘cause I have been quite fond of many of the things I’ve had on here. I especially liked the, the crown black. I’m like, that was yummy. And then I thought I really loved the, uh, the blue, Japanese whiskey blend. yeah, the ow or ao uh, and it, it was better than the, than this one.

[00:10:43] Adam Argyle: But once I went between the two, I was like, whoa. I like really like the, anyway, I’m rambling because I want to give this one quite a low number. it’s nice to have something that’s, that’s low. So yeah, two or three. This is gonna be something I, I mix into, , you know, peach fresca and I’m gonna make sure there’s a lot more peach fresca than a [00:11:00] whiskey in there.

[00:11:00] Adam Argyle: , So this’ll, this’ll be my bottom mixer.

[00:11:04] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, definitely. That’s the, that’s the best way to deal with the rest of this, which is cover it up with other things. I would say that I would consider it to try to do a, uh, last ward, but, , I don’t even think I’d waste it on that. I did pick up some chartreuse as well and try to tease you guys with, , maybe pick up some chartreuse and we’ll, we’ll taste that and da, da da.

[00:11:26] Chuck Carpenter: But anyway, uh, worst case

[00:11:27] Robbie Wagner: I thought about it, but then I was like, eh.

[00:11:30] Chuck Carpenter: yeah, well, you, one of my favorite cocktails is called The Last Word, and it includes chartreuse, , gin cherry, cordial lime juice, I think, give or take. That’s it. But it is like delicious and you can do it with, I think, typically rye, and it’s called like the last word or word, sorry.

[00:11:54] Chuck Carpenter: , With that. So it’s a nice, like, variation there, but, uh. Maybe I’d try it with this, but I’m [00:12:00] like, no, maybe I won’t. I don’t wanna ruin it with that. Probably just get some damn coke and get it over with.

[00:12:05] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, so before I forget, anyone that is not doing anything, October 12th to 14th, come hang out and rally with me at all Things Open. If you want some free tickets, let me know and we’ll get you a link to get a free ticket. And by let me know, I mean, anywhere on social media or go to whiskey fm slash contact.

[00:12:25] Robbie Wagner: I’ll be there. I’ll have wine. You can have some, I have shirts too. And stickers.

[00:12:30] Chuck Carpenter: mm, or,

[00:12:32] Chuck Carpenter: or message in this chat right now or,

[00:12:35] Chuck Carpenter: yeah, many

[00:12:35] Robbie Wagner: yeah, you can message in the chat if you’re watching right now. I guess any, any way you want to contact me, you wanna call my landline that I don’t have, do it.

[00:12:43] Chuck Carpenter: yeah, or, or his cell phone or go to his house, which is at Just kidding

[00:12:49] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. What’s Ken Wheeler’s number? Can we have him be the, uh, receptionist

[00:12:53] Robbie Wagner: and

[00:12:53] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. Yeah. Can you just sort through the riffraff for me? Thanks, Ken.

[00:12:57] Chuck Carpenter: All right. All [00:13:00] Laura?

[00:13:00] Robbie Wagner: Lot of, security issues over the past, , couple weeks here.

[00:13:05] Adam Argyle: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:06] Robbie Wagner: It’s been a, a bad time. Yeah, a bad time to be a, a JavaScript or Ruby or probably other things developer. I haven’t kept up with all of it, yeah, I mean, starting with the NP M1, like this is the second or third like NPM vulnerability thing in like the past couple months.

[00:13:26] Robbie Wagner: I feel like it’s been like nonstop, like people just attacking everything on NPM and it’s like they fix it. Sure. But like, not before. There’s a lot of repercussions.

[00:13:37] Chuck Carpenter: But most of the time, isn’t it just searching for like crypto wallet stuff so that they can just drain crypto wallets? I, I don’t know. So it’s

[00:13:46] Robbie Wagner: Uh, I don’t know the intent,

[00:13:48] Robbie Wagner: but it’s, yeah, it’s like getting keys usually, like looking for secrets and things and just publishing them so that they can, like access. I don’t know, there’s probably [00:14:00] stuff that is, , you know, good, like gives you money if you access it and hack it. I don’t know, but like, like the crypto thing , makes sense.

[00:14:08] Robbie Wagner: But like, I don’t know how much of that would be in NPM packages, maybe private NPM packages or like private GitHub repos might have like,

[00:14:16] Robbie Wagner: oh, I’ll just store

[00:14:17] Chuck Carpenter: if you were, yeah, if you were. I I think it’s more around like, if you are working on a blockchain app and you install this package as a dependency, which makes it part of your app, and then you have keys there, it would be,

[00:14:35] Robbie Wagner: Oh.

[00:14:35] Chuck Carpenter: way have some kind of access. I don’t know, very high level,

[00:14:39] Chuck Carpenter: , reading over things, but it is interesting.

[00:14:41] Chuck Carpenter: Okay, I’m gonna play devil’s advocate around that, which is,, does this mean you should be a bit more, especially in like a production application or something that you should be a bit more careful about how you deal with dependencies and upgrades and stuff, like you’re pinning things instead of like [00:15:00] allowing minor patches even, and.

[00:15:05] Chuck Carpenter: Or you could be doing, , security scans somehow in your CICD, right? Like if you’re gonna yolo it up, fine, but like, as it goes through CICD before it ever like, hits the internet, per se, there’s like a fossa scan or something of that nature. I don’t know.

[00:15:23] Robbie Wagner: I mean, a lot of people were using automated scans of some sort. I’m sure. I don’t know if they just weren’t finding it, or like, maybe it was subtle enough that it, it wasn’t finding it, but, there is a new thing in PNPM, I forget what it’s called, but there’s a flag where you can say like, if this was released in like the last day or two, just don’t install it.

[00:15:40] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, I like that. Like, wait, , a week or something you like, you can set a delay

[00:15:46] Robbie Wagner: Mm-hmm.

[00:15:48] Chuck Carpenter: which is kind of nice. ‘cause then you let it kind of settle out into the wild.

[00:15:54] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. You should always pick like one extra day. Like if everyone’s doing a week, do eight days [00:16:00] because like, I think it was, uh, Nova or somebody was talking about that and we’re like, yeah, if everyone just picks like a couple days. Then everyone that’s trying to attack something will just like wait a couple days.

[00:16:13] Robbie Wagner: Like you need it to be a random amount of time or something.

[00:16:17] Adam Argyle: and these were all social hacks too, right? So this is, , gaining keys through phishing generally. So it’s kind of just plain. So it’s not MP’s vulnerability. It also wasn’t Ruby’s vulnerability. This was humans, , being suckered by a, a list. And then, you know, they click the link and then it’s almost like, um, you’ve seen the movie Ransom or oh, these other ones where they’re like, steal your child.

[00:16:40] Adam Argyle: And then they’re like, you need to give us a million dollars. And you can’t tell the authorities at all. Uh, it’s almost like that’s happening, uh, here. And so we need a new tech movie. It’s kind what I’m going getting at. We need a tech movie where some. Developer gets an email, dun dun, it looks so normal.

[00:16:55] Adam Argyle: They click it and then all hell breaks loose and the movie voice comes in [00:17:00] and it tells us all about like he wanted his babies back, his keys had been taken and then, you

[00:17:04] Adam Argyle: know,

[00:17:05] Chuck Carpenter: In a world. Yeah. Like that kind of thing. In a world where you thought you were safe on the internet.

[00:17:12] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah.

[00:17:14] Adam Argyle: so yeah,

[00:17:15] Adam Argyle: but there’s like no ransom. It’s almost like they just go on and just like say they have it. I don’t know. Or I guess this one tried to steal things, but I dunno. Rubies was interesting. It’s like someone touted it on Reddit. They’re like, look at me, I’ve got control of what y’all gonna do.

[00:17:26] Adam Argyle: Um,

[00:17:27] Chuck Carpenter: And they’re like, we’re gonna do a hostile takeover that now makes us appear to be like the WordPress organization or something. It was like

[00:17:35] Robbie Wagner: yeah.

[00:17:36] Chuck Carpenter: after effects were strange, it seemed.

[00:17:38] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. I think it, it seemed way more legit. I didn’t read a ton about it, but like it seemed like it was actual people who were like Ruby Jim’s maintainers, or owners that were like, I’m just going to revoke everyone else’s access and then give a bunch of other people access and change the name. do you know the backstory, Adam, on, on what happened there [00:18:00] or,

[00:18:00] Adam Argyle: I

[00:18:02] Robbie Wagner: okay.

[00:18:02] Chuck Carpenter: I, I read things kind of similar to what you’re saying is that so bad thing happens around, Ruby Gems. And then, so the main company that has been like the steward of the registry, like just one day it shows up, like this guy comes in, he’s actually the owner and has booted everyone out and then is like, oh wait, sorry, that was too much.

[00:18:30] Chuck Carpenter: Let people back in. And then like a few days later, did it again for whatever reason. So,

[00:18:35] Robbie Wagner: Hmm. Yeah. I don’t know what you stand to gain other than like, I, people disliking you. cause all the packages are free, right? Like, I don’t use Ruby. I don’t know how it works, but

[00:18:46] Robbie Wagner: like.

[00:18:46] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah.

[00:18:47] Adam Argyle: It sounds like it’s worth a lot of money. It’s how many gems are in there? Butum ching.

[00:18:51] Chuck Carpenter: Wow.

[00:18:52] Chuck Carpenter: Wow.

[00:18:52] Adam Argyle: I had to butum ching ‘cause

[00:18:54] Chuck Carpenter: If you could have gotten diamonds or sapphires, come

[00:18:56] Chuck Carpenter: on.

[00:18:57] Robbie Wagner: I should have called it Treasure Chest. That would’ve been a better name.[00:19:00]

[00:19:00] Robbie Wagner: Keep all the rubies in.

[00:19:02] Chuck Carpenter: that’s a great question. I mean, there’s a company behind it and you gotta feel like there’s some level of financial gain there. but it’s hard to say. The business of open source is interesting.

[00:19:13] Chuck Carpenter: So what you’re saying is, I think this was like David Kramer or somebody said at some point, like back in the day when he was writing song and he, he was a jengo guy and so he would bring in a package like, oh, here’s my dependency.

[00:19:27] Chuck Carpenter: And then he would just copy it and use it locally, and then just do that for his upgrades instead of like having this build time operation of like great gathering dependencies and pulling them in so that he could actually be aware of like everything that was happening within his application. And I’m like, that’s really interesting.

[00:19:46] Chuck Carpenter: It sounds like a giant pain in the ass, to be honest, which is like why nobody really does that. But if you are like. Serious about security. If you’re just serious about bugs or whatever else, you’re just like being like, this is my [00:20:00] space and everything in here belongs to me. I mean, it’s, it’s all the same, I suppose.

[00:20:05] Chuck Carpenter: Right? If you just copy the code over, you’re not like copying the code over and then being like, created by David Kramer. You know? I mean, I don’t think he did that, but, uh, just using a local version until he needs something else.

[00:20:19] Robbie Wagner: I think that’s like, I don’t know, maybe this is a bad analogy, but I wanna say that’s like being like, Hey, okay, I’ve got Netflix, but what if the Internet’s down, so I’m gonna buy every single movie. That exists on Netflix, on DVD. , Just in case. ‘cause like I might want to like giving up that convenience for that much like, it feels so cumbersome and like, I feel like if things get owned enough, like if, if all of NPM is like demolished tomorrow or like things that the entire web is built on, either there will be a very quick remediation and we’ll all be fine or we basically [00:21:00] are just gonna not have jobs ‘cause you can’t run the internet anymore.

[00:21:03] Robbie Wagner: And in neither case, I don’t need to have downloaded all of my packages.

[00:21:06] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, I think an analogy is this, possibly I can check out Move or you, you still can, but whatever. Like back in the day, I could go to the library and get DVDs and I’d be like, okay, cool. Yeah, I’m gonna go see this DVD, I’m gonna copy it real quick to my computer in case my DVD player breaks. And that way I could still watch it, right?

[00:21:28] Chuck Carpenter: Like technically I’m just borrowing it, you know, I’ll delete it when I’m done or whatever. Maybe it’s like that. I don’t know.

[00:21:35] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, that’s a fair point.

[00:21:37] Adam Argyle: What about for some, like, uh, I think there might be a hot take in here, ‘cause there’s a huge advantage to, again, maybe it’s even like a riskier safe play where you’re, loading things from CDN. You can put a version number in there or you can grab latest. You grab latest when they deploy fixes, you get the fixes right?

[00:21:54] Adam Argyle: And let’s say it’s 99% of the stuff that you acquire over six months using latest are gains [00:22:00] and awesome things. But then that one time something malicious sneaks in and and you did, you deployed it for a little while because you were using the latest thing there. Versus someone who pins it always has to micromanage.

[00:22:11] Adam Argyle: It is wasting energy on depend bot alerts that are constantly incrementing its version. They accept them. They pretty much blindly accept them. It’s highly likely they would blindly accept it. Depend bot alert that, try to update it to a nefarious version. So what is the right way to do this? Is it to pull latest and be risky or pin it and add a chore for your future self forever until this thing stops

[00:22:37] Adam Argyle: updating.

[00:22:38] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah.

[00:22:39] Robbie Wagner: I think it depends on what your business is. if it breaking would cause your entire business to crumble and everyone would be fired, then you’re probably doing the safer one. But if you’re like building a personal website that’s cool to look at and like read some blog posts on or something, you’re probably like, I don’t care.

[00:22:54] Robbie Wagner: Like just throw out the latest.

[00:22:56] Chuck Carpenter: yeah, yeah. That’s, and then there’s many [00:23:00] layers in between, I think

[00:23:01] Chuck Carpenter: more

[00:23:02] Adam Argyle: Yeah, let’s talk about the in-between layers

[00:23:03] Adam Argyle: two.

[00:23:04] Chuck Carpenter: Okay. I mean, ‘cause I think more often than not, I’m at least accepting patches and sometimes even up to minor versions. The

[00:23:13] Robbie Wagner: That’s the problem is yeah, those could be vulnerable too. Like just ‘cause they published it as a patch doesn’t mean it actually was

[00:23:20] Robbie Wagner: a

[00:23:21] Chuck Carpenter: I, I, yeah, because it’s subjective. Like we have SemVer and it’s

[00:23:25] Chuck Carpenter: kind of supposed to be the right, it’s supposed to be. The rules, but like, just like open source. It’s sort of like we all agree as a nice community that this is how it works, but as soon as you have a bad actor there, they can be like, oh yeah, fuck you and your patches.

[00:23:40] Chuck Carpenter: I’m putting, putting all this malware in there.

[00:23:43] Adam Argyle: Yeah.

[00:23:44] Adam Argyle: you could do what Google did, which is they clone everything from NPM into their mono repo, so that if you want to use something, you don’t go get it from NPM. You get it officially cloned into the mono repo, and then you reference the mono repo. So they, if MPM did [00:24:00] go down, Google doesn’t go down.

[00:24:02] Adam Argyle: So they have that interesting advantage. , And then there’s also snowpack in here where snowpack, kind of reduced the amount of nefarious things could happen because you only pulled down the bundled module. didn’t pull down the entire repo and all the source files and all the read mes and the images and the marketing and the junk like that.

[00:24:19] Adam Argyle: You just pulled down the file you were gonna reference it seemed. Way more optimized and is harder to get a bug into there, but maybe not. Maybe it’s just as easy. I don’t know. Anyway, I feel like those are in between stages that are kind of like who’s doing it right?

[00:24:33] Adam Argyle: I

[00:24:33] Adam Argyle: don’t know.

[00:24:33] Chuck Carpenter: It also seems that like a lot of the targets have been like, not your primary packages, but like nested dependencies too, so it’s like it’s buried a little bit. You don’t really realize, oh, this bumped this version, and which bumped to that version, and that version and that version, and all of a sudden like five dependencies down.

[00:24:55] Chuck Carpenter: That was your thing.

[00:24:56] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, it’s all hard. You basically just have to trust that. [00:25:00] Everything is fine.

[00:25:01] Chuck Carpenter: Trust no one.

[00:25:02] Robbie Wagner: even determining what a breaking change is, I feel like, is like up to interpretation. Like one that always pissed me off. If you’re technically wanting to be right about like what’s a breaking change, right? You would say if I increase, like if I drop node version support, like this needs node 20 now, or node 22 or whatever, , but none of the API of the library changed, I would consider that not a breaking change ‘cause nothing changed, just like I’m not supporting a node version.

[00:25:33] Robbie Wagner: But like a lot of people would disagree, like, oh, I can’t run it now, so that’s a breaking change. Like, but I didn’t change anything like,

[00:25:41] Chuck Carpenter: Right, Right, You just, it just gets annoying because that little package thing says, oh, it has to be between here and here. And that’s really just more of a personal opinion. And it’s not like you were leveraging a particular API and node. That is no longer supported or has changed, so technically [00:26:00] it’s fine.

[00:26:01] Chuck Carpenter: That was just your choice to be like, not supported, and I’m gonna make it official.

[00:26:05] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. Yeah. But tools now usually warn you about that. Like even if I said it’s a patch and you installed it, it’ll be like the engines is not compatible with like, like your node version or whatever.

[00:26:17] Chuck Carpenter: but it, it’s nothing. But you think it’s not compatible or you’ve said it’s not compatible, even though technically it probably is,

[00:26:25] Robbie Wagner: that’s true. So you can do ignore engines and it still usually works.

[00:26:29] Chuck Carpenter: yeah. There you go.

[00:26:30] CTA: This just in! Whiskey.fund is now open for all your merch needs. That’s right, Robbie. We’re hearing reports of hats, sweaters, and T-shirts, as well as a link to join our Discord server. What’s a Discord server? Just read the prompter, man. Hit subscribe. Leave us a review on your favorite podcast app and tell your friends about our broadcast. It really does help us reach more people and keeps the show growing. All right, back to your regularly scheduled [00:27:00] programming.

[00:27:03] Chuck Carpenter: So you

[00:27:04] Adam Argyle: This episode brought to you by Socket io. Protect your MPM packages by leveraging our service, which deeply inspects and monitor. I’m, I can’t remember what the whole pitch is, but that’s what they do, right? Socket io is a. They are constantly scrubbing dependencies. No.

[00:27:20] Robbie Wagner: I

[00:27:21] Adam Argyle: Oh socket io is the socket tool.

[00:27:22] Adam Argyle: Hold on.

[00:27:22] Adam Argyle: What

[00:27:23] Adam Argyle: is it? Socket

[00:27:24] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, it’s like web socket thing,

[00:27:25] Chuck Carpenter: right?

[00:27:25] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah.

[00:27:26] Adam Argyle: I, hold on. It’s socket

[00:27:27] Chuck Carpenter: Guillermo Rausch? Wasn’t that

[00:27:29] Adam Argyle: Okay. So, and it was a Guillermo, so socket io is the really early node implementation of web sockets. So realtime stuff was, but then there’s sot dev, I’m gonna share that on the channel now, which is run by f. Name starts with F and he’s cool.

[00:27:42] Adam Argyle: I like him. What is his

[00:27:43] Adam Argyle: name?

[00:27:44] Chuck Carpenter: Fuck that guy. F no, I don’t know.

[00:27:47] Adam Argyle: oh,

[00:27:48] Chuck Carpenter: Fernando, uh, Freddy, uh,

[00:27:51] Adam Argyle: damnit. No, it’s a little more different than that. It is for us. Yes. For Ross. Yeah. Frost started this, he sort of recognized that [00:28:00] we were vulnerable and started a company and got investment and then now is trying to protect people’s dependencies through ai, other scrubbing and monitoring. And so it’s like when, when things go sour, uh, they were there first.

[00:28:13] Adam Argyle: Anyway, so this episode not brought to you by sot io, but so dev and that’s how we don’t get sponsors. ‘cause I misread

[00:28:19] Adam Argyle: the

[00:28:19] Chuck Carpenter: Hmm. Still getting a bill.

[00:28:21] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, we’ll send you a

[00:28:22] Robbie Wagner: bill.

[00:28:22] Chuck Carpenter: Still sending you a bill. Hopefully you pay it. because we we’re drinking sw. Come on, hook us up, bro.

[00:28:28] Adam Argyle: you got rhymes, bro. You’re gonna flow.

[00:28:30] Chuck Carpenter: hmm. Mm-hmm. I’m working on it. My beatboxing and, and, and all of that. It’s just sort of my pivot, my career pivot.

[00:28:39] Robbie Wagner: So I want to talk about this tailwind being a bad state management library because I don’t think I understand the joke. I, uh, at first thought it was just like, it’s obviously not a state management library, so it’s like, haha.

[00:28:51] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. It’s not a good state management library because it’s not one. But I think there’s some nuance to it that I don’t get. What’s your take? Adam, what do you said you thought you [00:29:00] understood what they were saying.

[00:29:01] Adam Argyle: let’s say you have many visual things that need to change based on state. Okay? So it’s not just one you want to toggle one class, yo, that’s pretty much traditional style with CSS, right? You toggle one class, then you, that one toggle, you go change a bunch of stuff. , And I know David k piano likes to, .

[00:29:19] Adam Argyle: Put state into attributes because then they can only be one at a time. Right. Your data state is true, , or false as opposed to, you could have data, you could have multiple classes, or you’d have two classes, one class that says true, one class that says false, but if you have data, state equals true. It can only be true or false.

[00:29:35] Adam Argyle: So he likes to sort of put you in a scenario where you don’t have multiple types of state trying to fight each other in the class name string, which I think is fair. But as soon as you’ve got like, something that changes state and changes the width and the height and the border and the color and all this stuff, well that’s a, that’s a pain in your butt.

[00:29:52] Adam Argyle: So now you’re swapping many classes, using the micro syntax knot in line on the element where you might traditionally be doing it. Either [00:30:00] that or you are, and you’re using use state and then you’re toggling between a whole bunch of strings of classes and it’s sort of a switch, or maybe you’re now making a function out of it.

[00:30:08] Adam Argyle: So your function takes the state and returns a set of class that, I think that’s what he’s trying to say here

[00:30:13] Adam Argyle: is

[00:30:13] Adam Argyle: like. your cool solution is really shitty when I have a lot of things to change or I have a lot of state to manage because now I’m juggling classes and juggling classes. Don’t just make my component portable anymore.

[00:30:26] Adam Argyle: Now my component is, has a bunch of strings attached and these functions have to come with it, that balance and juggle these strings. Ah, that’s what I think what he meant. I don’t

[00:30:34] Adam Argyle: know.

[00:30:34] Robbie Wagner: was that a dad joke? Strings attached.

[00:30:36] Adam Argyle: no. For me it’s the, uh, have I told you all the other thing that’s, uh, , object oriented programming? You asked for a banana, but you got a gorilla holding a banana.

[00:30:45] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, I’ve heard that.

[00:30:46] Adam Argyle: Okay. I, yeah, so that’s

[00:30:47] Adam Argyle: like all the strings

[00:30:49] Adam Argyle: attacked,

[00:30:49] Chuck Carpenter: listen. Classes are fine. I

[00:30:51] Chuck Carpenter: don’t

[00:30:51] Chuck Carpenter: want

[00:30:51] Adam Argyle: but yeah, you tried to grab a banana and had a bunch of strings attached to it, one of which was connected to a

[00:30:55] Adam Argyle: gorilla, but yeah.

[00:30:56] Chuck Carpenter: whiskey.

[00:30:57] Chuck Carpenter: Um.

[00:30:57] Robbie Wagner: the thing that I would always say about Tailwind though [00:31:00] is, it’s just CSS. So like if you want to have 15 tailwind classes, you can be like, fu as my new class and add, apply the 15 things and then you can just toggle that thing off and on I don’t know. I, I feel like you can do all the same sort of things.

[00:31:18] Robbie Wagner: It just requires more setup.

[00:31:20] Chuck Carpenter: see, I, I don’t know, I saw some argument about like a child modifier or something in the cascade or something. I don’t know. It’s like instead of adding your classes to these like 15 things, just put this on the parent and it’s a child modifier. And then other people were like, that ridiculous, da da da da.

[00:31:39] Chuck Carpenter: And then someone else is like, it’s just the cascade, which is just CSS. It’s, you know, it’s nice and I don’t know,

[00:31:46] Robbie Wagner: Nice.

[00:31:47] Robbie Wagner: Nice. Is a stretch. The cascade is hard,

[00:31:50] Robbie Wagner: man. Trying to get

[00:31:51] Robbie Wagner: everything right.

[00:31:52] Chuck Carpenter: Of course. Yeah. And then you always have like teammates who would add something in the middle instead of the bottom, and not [00:32:00] realizing that the cascade just means red from top to bottom.

[00:32:02] Chuck Carpenter: You dumb fuck. Right. Anyway, that was the thing I saw. So I didn’t see this other like state thing, but I do

[00:32:09] Adam Argyle: I saw that one too. Who did say that? I saw that also. It was a good one. There’s, yeah, there’s a lot of, a lot of good hate this

[00:32:15] Adam Argyle: week.

[00:32:15] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. Yeah. Well, we’re gonna get into the real hot take,

[00:32:19] Chuck Carpenter: which

[00:32:20] Adam Argyle: have been David that said that one too. Oh

[00:32:21] Adam Argyle: yeah.

[00:32:21] Adam Argyle: What is it?

[00:32:21] Adam Argyle: Let’s hear

[00:32:22] Adam Argyle: him.

[00:32:22] Chuck Carpenter: David. piano Or piano. Which is it? Well, piano. Piano is

[00:32:28] Robbie Wagner: that’s not

[00:32:28] Chuck Carpenter: for

[00:32:28] Chuck Carpenter: slow. Oh, okay.

[00:32:30] Adam Argyle: Yeah, he’s David Korshe, but for some reason he’s David K piano.

[00:32:34] Chuck Carpenter: maybe he used to

[00:32:35] Robbie Wagner: Doesn’t he play piano?

[00:32:36] Chuck Carpenter: or

[00:32:37] Adam Argyle: I would really

[00:32:37] Adam Argyle: hope

[00:32:37] Adam Argyle: so.

[00:32:38] Adam Argyle: ‘cause

[00:32:38] Adam Argyle: otherwise that’s a,

[00:32:39] Chuck Carpenter: It’s real weird.

[00:32:40] Chuck Carpenter: Otherwise.

[00:32:41] Adam Argyle: Yeah.

[00:32:43] Chuck Carpenter: David K like, what’s up with your name, bro?

[00:32:45] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, so let’s talk about immigration. I mean, I’m fighting reverse immigration, but, uh, lots of talk, lots of opinions all over the place. About the change in the H one [00:33:00] B Visa, I feel like this is, uh, very controversial on a lot of levels.

[00:33:05] Chuck Carpenter: People

[00:33:06] Chuck Carpenter: affected,

[00:33:07] Robbie Wagner: Can we take a step back and I don’t know a lot about the different types of like visas you can get to come in and work, or like what a H one B even means, like I know that it means you get to come in and work, right? But

[00:33:20] Chuck Carpenter: mm-hmm.

[00:33:21] Robbie Wagner: like why would you get that versus like another kind or why would you, like how long would you have that, or would you try to just be a full fledged citizen?

[00:33:29] Robbie Wagner: Or like, what, I don’t know. Gimme, gimme some facts on like. Why you would get this versus something else,

[00:33:35] Chuck Carpenter: I am an I, yeah, I am far from expert. So I mean, previous to the fee attachment, I believe that it was not, you know, there was no monetary aspect to it. And I think it was one of those where it was like highly skilled worker. and, , it’s attached per company, so you get this visa, but it’s only for that company.

[00:33:57] Chuck Carpenter: So if that company.

[00:33:58] Chuck Carpenter: Fires you. [00:34:00] Yeah. That, yeah. So it’s like you’re really kind of trapped in that specific bucket. So you know, you can’t quit or be fired or any of those things, or you go back home. And then there’s the O one, but I thought the oh one was, was like it did cost and it was kind of a bit more, but now maybe it’s switched and it’s cheaper.

[00:34:21] Chuck Carpenter: But I, the, the discussions are this basically, and obviously like real people are affected by this. So there’s like a high level thing of people speaking about like, I am hiring for such specialized skills. I need to be able to choose from anywhere in the world. And then there’s the other side of it, which is, and I think this is a side effect of capitalism.

[00:34:43] Chuck Carpenter: So that’s kind of one thing, which is just. I don’t have to pay these people shit, and they still very much appreciate what I’m paying them. And they are trapped to work for me at my company. Right? Like, you come here and Robbie’s gonna cost me [00:35:00] 200,000 and this person is gonna cost me 80,000. This is where I’m going with it.

[00:35:05] Chuck Carpenter: I think I can get like a workforce that won’t complain about overtime and won’t want special benefits and

[00:35:12] Robbie Wagner: So is the, is the benefit then you’re still paying nothing, but you’ve got them like basically handcuffed to, they can’t go anywhere because you could hire them remotely from wherever they happen to be living, but I guess they’re not then stuck. Like you want to be completely in control of

[00:35:31] Robbie Wagner: them.

[00:35:31] Chuck Carpenter: you want my Yeah, you want complete control. They, they come. So I’ve seen circumstances in positions that I’ve been at, or companies that I’ve worked with or for where there are folks in this position they

[00:35:47] Chuck Carpenter: could come over and, you know, rent a house with three others that are in the similar position, really like save their cash and do well and like help their families.

[00:35:55] Chuck Carpenter: Sometimes they move over with families, all that kind of stuff. But yeah, like you’re [00:36:00] really kind of trapped in that company and positioned for time, , over time. And they don’t, they don’t have to give you raises. They don’t, you know, there’s a lot of financial advantages from a capitalist standpoint.

[00:36:12] Chuck Carpenter: Not to say that they couldn’t, they weren’t doing a good job or any of those things.

[00:36:16] Chuck Carpenter: And then there’s like what they call the body shops, which are like. services companies bringing in a bunch of H one Bs and then using them at a low salary to apply to all kinds of Fortune 500 companies. And then there’s the other side of it where, bigger companies like Tesla, Tesla uses it a lot.

[00:36:34] Chuck Carpenter: A lot of San Francisco based companies are, have used it for special skills. So it’s interesting. Yeah. The Gold Card program, I barely even, understand other than it looks like a joke, but I think it’s real.

[00:36:50] Chuck Carpenter: You can pay a million dollars

[00:36:51] Robbie Wagner: next js.

[00:36:53] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. And that which apparently was like memory bleeding or something, I don’t know.

[00:36:57] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah.

[00:36:58] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, it’s.

[00:36:59] Adam Argyle: It’s just [00:37:00] wild.

[00:37:01] Robbie Wagner: The gold card thing, it’s like it’s a million dollars for a person, or if a company sponsors it, it’s 2 million. Yeah, I guess like if, if you’re one of these AI companies that’s paying somebody like a billion dollar salary, you’re probably like, why? Yes. I would like for them to instantly be a citizen.

[00:37:16] Robbie Wagner: I will pay $2 million.

[00:37:17] Chuck Carpenter: any Visa is not like an easy process. They don’t let you just like say, oh, I could pick this guy up off the street. We’re gonna do the H one B. Like, it’s an arduous process regardless. And I think the gold guard thing is kind of like, you pay, come on in, we don’t

[00:37:32] Robbie Wagner: yeah, they say there’s still a background check, but I feel like if you’re paying $2 million, it’s like, hmm. So I think it’s like a, a back door for like Russian oligarchs to just be like, Hey, what’s up? I’m not in trouble, in trouble for like war crimes anymore. I live here like.

[00:37:46] Chuck Carpenter: yeah,

[00:37:47] Chuck Carpenter: yeah. I don’t, yeah, it’s hard to say why. Let me just say this. I’m enjoying the food here and I am enjoying the view from afar. Okay.

[00:37:57] Robbie Wagner: Yes. Good time to live in Italy [00:38:00] for

[00:38:00] Chuck Carpenter: you, yeah. I don’t know

[00:38:01] Chuck Carpenter: how. It’s all

[00:38:03] Chuck Carpenter: gonna shake out, but, uh Oh, perfect. Yeah. That was always my goal.

[00:38:07] Robbie Wagner: Yes, you just live to make others, , envy what you’re doing, not, not for your own pleasure, just to make others

[00:38:13] Chuck Carpenter: yeah. It’s really, it’s like, it’s a lot of hard work. It is. Uh, there’s some bureaucracy and frustrations, , but along the way, as long as others are envying me, it seems worth it.

[00:38:25] Adam Argyle: couple thoughts to, yeah. That, that gold card backdoor it, I called it a smelly backdoor. Like it’s, you’re going in the, the butthole entrance, but you had to pay. It’s like you, you really gotta, it’s, anyway, don’t like it at all. I don’t think I’ve hated an idea more than that one.

[00:38:39] Adam Argyle: It just seems really crazy. But I’ve had a couple folks in the past couple weeks, reach out to me and be like, Hey, I’m applying for a Visa. I need a letter of recommendation. We’ve worked together in open source. Would you be willing to write a letter of recommendation for me? In one case was something like an oh one, an alien of, of extraordinary ability, which is just [00:39:00] also a rude thing to tell, call

[00:39:01] Adam Argyle: someone,

[00:39:01] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, it does seem, yeah,

[00:39:04] Chuck Carpenter: I’m not an alien, I’m a human. Yeah.

[00:39:06] Robbie Wagner: yeah, Non-resident, talented person or something

[00:39:09] Robbie Wagner: like

[00:39:10] Adam Argyle: seriously, but you call ‘em alien of extraordinary ability. It’s like, this sounds like a UFO landed and you’re gonna let ‘em in through the oh one Visa. You know, like, what the hell?

[00:39:17] Adam Argyle: But they, I get these requests and I got two in a week. And so it made me immediately think that they all got a memo.

[00:39:25] Adam Argyle: I didn’t get, they all got some sort of email or letter that said, you’re about to be kicked the hell out unless you do something. And then the second thing I felt was, holy shit. I bet there’s a lot of people doing this right now. I bet there’s a lot of people trying to, to stay here to, prove their value.

[00:39:39] Adam Argyle: And that has got to feel so shitty. You’re like, I’ve been here paying taxes for six years. One of these people works at OpenAI. They’re like, I work at one of the biggest companies in your stupid country, and you want to kick me out for what?

[00:39:52] Chuck Carpenter: I think, you know, for what I

[00:39:54] Adam Argyle: well, I

[00:39:54] Adam Argyle: mean,

[00:39:54] Adam Argyle: I

[00:39:55] Robbie Wagner: Mm. Yeah.

[00:39:56] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah.

[00:39:57] Chuck Carpenter: so I think, you’ve been the [00:40:00] victim of mass layoffs and there’s been tons of layoffs and not just in tech, and I think that native residents, you know, true real Americans who also stole this country, but I mean, whatever. Right? Like that’s,

[00:40:16] Adam Argyle: And they still steal from each

[00:40:17] Adam Argyle: other,

[00:40:17] Adam Argyle: and they’re

[00:40:17] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, but

[00:40:18] Robbie Wagner: I,

[00:40:19] Robbie Wagner: I don’t get the point though because like I, okay. If you assume that that’s the plan, it’s like get anyone that isn’t a citizen out so that the citizens can have the jobs. Okay. I could see why you would think that could be a good thing, but what makes you think they would give citizens those jobs in their stead?

[00:40:38] Robbie Wagner: Like wouldn’t they just hire anyone offshore, near shore, some shore that

[00:40:42] Robbie Wagner: shore

[00:40:43] Chuck Carpenter: I think there’ll be a, I think there’ll be some offshore rushes for sure. There’ll be some tolerance around that. There will be massive salary.

[00:40:51] Chuck Carpenter: I think

[00:40:51] Chuck Carpenter: tech is tech is on a rush to push salaries down. I think as like salaries have got just kept rising and [00:41:00] rising in, in web development in particular that there’s been some great equalizers that have happened across the board, and I think to a

[00:41:08] Chuck Carpenter: degree

[00:41:08] Adam Argyle: Well those are natural. Yeah.

[00:41:10] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. That, that, this is another one of like, come on, you’re the modern day factory worker, so what makes you think you should get multiple six figures as a salary that you earn that like,

[00:41:21] Robbie Wagner: I.

[00:41:22] Chuck Carpenter: it’s a question.

[00:41:23] Chuck Carpenter: everything is, is a question in that sense. , We don’t have any certainty around that, but I think a lot of moves have been made to equalize the market and reduce the average salary of, of a web developer for sure. , And this is another move around that. So like, I don’t know, at the end of the day, you can go through hoops and, deal with visas, or if you could pay Adam Argyle, who lives in the neighborhood of my office, 80 grand instead, because guess what?

[00:41:53] Chuck Carpenter: That’s what your market rate is now. Would you do that? I mean, I think you would, and I think it would look good because [00:42:00] you’re keeping your community employed,

[00:42:03] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, and it saves you a ton. Like there was a tweet about all the big companies, and I forget all the numbers, but I know Amazon, it was like. They’re gonna have to pay $940 million a year to keep all the people they have. And it’s like, they’re not gonna do that. Ain’t no way I’ve been there, I’ve met them.

[00:42:19] Robbie Wagner: They’re not doing that. They don’t give a shit about any people.

[00:42:22] Chuck Carpenter: They’re making whatever move maintains shareholder value and or increases

[00:42:26] Chuck Carpenter: it

[00:42:27] Chuck Carpenter: all the time. So it’s politically advantageous to keep Americans employed. You appear to be doing something about, this problem let’s be honest, like. don’t want anyone to be unemployed.

[00:42:40] Chuck Carpenter: I don’t want people not able to feed their family. I don’t want them to have to go to another place that is left safe. I’m not asking for that. But I also can see that like, we are not building rockets, we are not feeding children. we have a good job. There are some great challenges there.

[00:42:57] Chuck Carpenter: Like code is fun and [00:43:00] all of these things. I don’t push that aside, but like, maybe this is some like great reckoning of like, well, you’re not as important as you thought you were, so get back to it and let’s keep all of us employed and just chill, settle down a little bit.

[00:43:16] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, I think that has been happening a lot. Jason Langsdorf I think mentioned that on one of the times we recorded with him, he was like, yeah, for some reason we’ve decided this is a job that makes a lot of money. And I’m not sure why. Like, I, I kind of agree

[00:43:29] Chuck Carpenter: I’m, I’m not mad, but.

[00:43:30] Robbie Wagner: yeah, like I, I enjoy reaping the benefits, but like, yeah, I think there is some level of software engineer that like is really complex and like should pay a lot of money and I don’t know what that is and like that’s maybe, you know, a sliding scale, whatever.

[00:43:46] Robbie Wagner: But I think like. A lot of the things people making like a hundred grand plus at like web developer jobs, they’re like doing, here’s a div, it has like 12 pixels padding, ship it

[00:43:59] Robbie Wagner: [00:44:00] and making a lot of money. And I think that has gotten very inflated.

[00:44:03] Chuck Carpenter: yeah, I think when people were coming out of like boot camps in 12 weeks and making six figures, I think that was a tipping point.

[00:44:10] Chuck Carpenter: it

[00:44:10] Chuck Carpenter: took me a decade to hit that,

[00:44:11] Adam Argyle: but you can’t fight demand. It’s not like

[00:44:13] Adam Argyle: these, these didn’t pop out the gate like that. Nothing that’s really wildly expensive. Like the monks making that whiskey. They didn’t, they come out

[00:44:20] Adam Argyle: The gate trying to make is, is that it? Oh shit,

[00:44:24] Chuck Carpenter: The chartreuse that I tried to get you guys to, to

[00:44:26] Robbie Wagner: Oh, that’s

[00:44:26] Chuck Carpenter: That, that’s made by French

[00:44:28] Chuck Carpenter: monks

[00:44:29] Chuck Carpenter: for like hundreds of years.

[00:44:32] Adam Argyle: yeah. And it’s limited and they don’t do it to be limited to, to

[00:44:35] Adam Argyle: make

[00:44:35] Adam Argyle: more

[00:44:35] Adam Argyle: money. They do limited ‘cause it’s.

[00:44:36] Chuck Carpenter: it because of high

[00:44:38] Adam Argyle: and that’s ‘cause of the high demand. So I mean, demand drives cost up. That’s not something that we anybody can control of. And the demand for tech was wild.

[00:44:47] Chuck Carpenter: The demand for tech is going to keep growing and I think they see that and they need a, a much larger pool than we’re able to fulfill in any other way. And so the costs are gonna have to go down. I think [00:45:00] that’s a big part of it. And we were trying to fulfill it with education on various levels and it turns out like learning react just isn’t enough, not gonna cut it or whatever.

[00:45:10] Chuck Carpenter: and again, I’m not shooting on bootcamp people. I think if you have a passion, I’m a self-taught developer, so like whatever. If you have passion and you, put your mind to it and you put your heart in it. It’s like you’re gonna get good. That’s not a problem. But I do think it was just the rate of all of a sudden there was this five year period where like salaries shot

[00:45:30] Chuck Carpenter: up

[00:45:31] Adam Argyle: Yeah. Things burst when they shoot like that. Yeah. That’s an unsustainable growth factor. It can’t

[00:45:35] Adam Argyle: continue,

[00:45:36] Adam Argyle: but it just seems weird to me that they’re forcing it down. Like, if a plant is growing so fast, why would you cut it down? I wouldn’t

[00:45:42] Chuck Carpenter: Hmm.

[00:45:43] Adam Argyle: peak out as,

[00:45:45] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, because they want to have more bigger yachts. if

[00:45:48] Robbie Wagner: you, if

[00:45:48] Adam Argyle: kinda what I’m saying.

[00:45:49] Adam Argyle: The richer, getting richer in this scenario right now, they’re not trying to pass the wealth down to the workers to get them to make, because they could look at the circle of money saying if we give more money to the workers and we let them and they’re [00:46:00] being faster, bigger,

[00:46:00] Adam Argyle: stronger,

[00:46:01] Adam Argyle: that makes our business better. but that’s not

[00:46:03] Adam Argyle: what’s

[00:46:04] Chuck Carpenter: Communal values do not. Yeah. Yeah. Communal values do not drive capitalism. And capitalism has been like, so A CEO has a legal binding to do what’s best for shareholders and that is like one of the fallacies in capitalism that has happened and that like, they can’t do anything that is like good for their workers if it would take money away from shareholders.

[00:46:31] Chuck Carpenter: When you go public, you’re like stuck in this whole like, dichotomy of shareholder value, like constantly.

[00:46:38] Robbie Wagner: I was gonna say, but what about like all your employees that own stock? usually at companies, you’re either part of a stock purchase program or getting RSUs or like doing something where you’re getting company stock. So you should also be

[00:46:53] Chuck Carpenter: that’s a small segment though. Like the, there’s like tech that is like that. But like, what we tend to [00:47:00] forget is there’s a ton of non-sexy tech. You work for a finance company that’s been around for hundreds of years.

[00:47:06] Chuck Carpenter: They do not have like RSUs and stock buybacks and all these like, additional incentives. you work for Macy’s, right? Like worldwide known retail, giant, Nordstrom, whatever else. Like that’s not built into it necessarily. It’s a salary, it’s a job. You’re a worker. So like when you think about all these additional incentives and all the sexy cool stuff that like, that gets talked about, like that is a 10% slice of the job market that is technology.

[00:47:36] Chuck Carpenter: And there’s a ton of non-sexy things. There’s a billion WordPress sites that still need to live. There’s a lot of work to be had. And this is what I say to people like early in their careers is you’ve gotta be willing to accept something less sexy.

[00:47:53] Chuck Carpenter: there’s a ton of tech work that doesn’t encapsulate any of that.

[00:47:58] Chuck Carpenter: And that’s okay because if you [00:48:00] want to be in tech, it’s not going away. There’s a lot of like, shitty old tech that needs maintaining, you know, there’s still pearl out there that needs maintaining. , There’s a lot of this stuff and like,

[00:48:11] Robbie Wagner: Just go to shitty old pearl.ai and we’ll help you maintain that.

[00:48:15] Chuck Carpenter: ai, there’s a business right there probably like, yeah.

[00:48:20] Chuck Carpenter: Converted to roast so it’s 60 or Zig

[00:48:23] Chuck Carpenter: so you can get a

[00:48:23] Robbie Wagner: COBOL dot lool. Check that

[00:48:25] Robbie Wagner: out.

[00:48:26] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. So the other, uh, there was an argument, , with Jared from BUN where he’s like, , I don’t know, like 18 outta 20 of my employees are H one Bs. What the hell? And I can only find people who are not American, who can write Zig.

[00:48:40] Chuck Carpenter: And it’s like, maybe it’s, ‘cause nobody’s heard of that, but, uh.

[00:48:43] Robbie Wagner: somebody had like a, clap back at that. That was like, Facebook can hire anyone they want anywhere. No problem. Microsoft, anywhere. Anywhere. No problem. Like every big company, and it’s like tiny JavaScript library. Can’t do it. Like,

[00:48:57] Chuck Carpenter: He also raised like $26 million or something. [00:49:00] So I’m kind of like, where are you spending all that money if it’s not on salary?

[00:49:03] Robbie Wagner: well, it’s, it’s not on furniture. I know that.

[00:49:08] Chuck Carpenter: Uh, for those that are wondering, go back, uh, about a year and a half and

[00:49:12] Robbie Wagner: listen to episode 95. I don’t know what episode it

[00:49:15] Robbie Wagner: was.

[00:49:15] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah,

[00:49:15] Chuck Carpenter: it was, he’s like

[00:49:17] Robbie Wagner: in a room with no furniture is

[00:49:18] Robbie Wagner: the

[00:49:19] Chuck Carpenter: no furniture Strong echo. Yeah, like air pods and drinking whiskey out of a coffee cup. Like, I mean, you know, no shade. Like there was a lot of respect there. ‘cause he is a smart guy, so there’s no doubt about that.

[00:49:32] Robbie Wagner: He’s doing great stuff. Like anyone that thinks we’re shitting on him we’re not.

[00:49:35] Robbie Wagner: It’s just a

[00:49:35] Chuck Carpenter: No, no, he, he just maybe hadn’t slept for days and was just like, all right, I’m gonna take this, uh, podcast as a meeting real quick and uh, and then move on to my next thing.

[00:49:44] Robbie Wagner: Mm-hmm.

[00:49:45] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah.

[00:49:45] Adam Argyle: I want to swap away from politics just for a bit to get a little bit more into web and ai ‘cause I did something that

[00:49:52] Adam Argyle: I haven’t seen a whole lot of other people do. so first off, this is a Claude trick. I think you can do it with Codex and some of the other CLOs. Right now where I have [00:50:00] defined a bunch of agents, my goal was to write and mark down all of the different roles my brain does in web dev.

[00:50:07] Adam Argyle: So I am a UI designer. I’m a UI developer. I’m a UX developer. I’m a UX engineer. Well, this is the same thing, whatever. Anyway, uh, I’m a CSS developer. I’m a TypeScript noob, but I called myself a TypeScript Pro, obviously,

[00:50:20] Adam Argyle: in the thing. And so I’m giving, I’m kind of authoring. I authored about 10 different personas.

[00:50:25] Adam Argyle: So from accessibility to markup to, containerization to backends. Anyway, whatever. Once you have this list and you’ve sort of like taken as much of your little brain knowledge stuff as you can and put it in a markdown for it to be like, these are the things you’re good at, here’s why you do it. Here’s what to look for.

[00:50:40] Adam Argyle: Always do this, never do that type of stuff, which took me hours, which felt really productive, but maybe it wasn’t. I don’t know. I’ll find out soon. Anyway, so you have this list of agents, and with these agents, most people who use Claude only ask single Claude to do something, and if they want two clouds, they open up a tab.

[00:50:56] Adam Argyle: Did you know, then you can say, [00:51:00] Claude Parallelize, four of my agents that you believe are the correct agents, monitor these four agents in parallel as they work on. I gave it a good example the other day was make a light dark theme switch on my side. Actually, I said a multi theme switch. I don’t want just light and dark.

[00:51:14] Adam Argyle: I want multiple themes that are named and beautiful. So take the UI designer, the UX engineer, the CSS engineer and the TypeScript Pro, take these four and in parallel have them plan, build, and deliver this feature, in my repo. Right now and of all of a sudden, poof, in one terminal window, all four begin, all four starts, slurping tokens.

[00:51:38] Chuck Carpenter: Oh

[00:51:38] Adam Argyle: You could just see, see money is just leaking out your eyeballs as these things are like gobble, gobble, gobble tokens. Now I make new decision gobble

[00:51:46] Robbie Wagner: It’s just like Chuck E. Cheese in 1995.

[00:51:49] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. Seriously.

[00:51:50] Adam Argyle: And so then I take all these and I just, and I like watch them and they run way longer than your other ones because they’ll finish and then submit the work back up to the orchestrator, Claude, that, that [00:52:00] Claude’s like, all right, well we’re waiting all the other agents, the other agents ask a question to the main orchestrator.

[00:52:04] Adam Argyle: He asked it to the other one. You all of a sudden have, I was basically employing, and I got weirdly addicted to this the other night where I was like sitting here watching all of my not employees, and I was calling them thems or whatever. I was like, do, look what they’re doing. And she, my wife’s like, they’re not people.

[00:52:19] Adam Argyle: Dork. Quit being such a nerd with your computer. , But I was like watching, , multiple instances of multiple groups of agents fulfill my tasks and I was getting better results because it wasn’t just a, it wasn’t just a prompt. It was a prompt that then they turned into a plan. A see, I said today and.

[00:52:38] Adam Argyle: then these agents take that work and go the next level. And then they crosscheck each other’s work constantly referring to the agent’s markdown file that I gave them to hold onto tenants and things that they believe

[00:52:47] Adam Argyle: in.

[00:52:47] Adam Argyle: And ultimately one

[00:52:49] Adam Argyle: request costs a bunch of money. Yeah, go

[00:52:51] Adam Argyle: ahead.

[00:52:51] Robbie Wagner: Does each one then, ‘cause you were like, you’re a TypeScript expert, you’re a CSS expert, whatever. , Is there like one agent that’s like, I’m the TypeScript guy and I’m gonna come [00:53:00] through and like, check all your types and make sure everything is cool is

[00:53:03] Robbie Wagner: it just all of the things kind of like spread across whatever agent wants it

[00:53:08] Adam Argyle: no, it picks the one that’s right.

[00:53:09] Adam Argyle: So you can either specifically say, use the CSS agent to create a CSS robust token color system, for example. And it would go employ specific. And at that point, it’s basically just taking the markdown agent’s file, preloading it into context, and then executing the task for the AI agent.

[00:53:26] Adam Argyle: So that’s not that cool, but it gets really cool when you have one AI agent managing other AI agents, and you don’t let it complete until the task is verifiably complete. And you let each of those be domain experts. So when you define these agents, you do say not only just their name, you say this is your description, which also is a strong hint of when to use me.

[00:53:45] Adam Argyle: So if you see things that have to do with styling or customer properties or key frames and animations always

[00:53:51] Adam Argyle: ask me to do

[00:53:51] Robbie Wagner: that one.

[00:53:52] Chuck Carpenter: Hmm.

[00:53:53] Adam Argyle: exactly. So I have this scenario now where I am not just employing one [00:54:00] instance, I’m deploying four. In parallel, they work a lot longer, they produce better work, and they cost about 25 times more money.

[00:54:08] Adam Argyle: Go ahead and ask me

[00:54:08] Adam Argyle: anything

[00:54:09] Robbie Wagner: think, I think everyone though, like that is the problem that everyone is having is like, they’re not producing good work. So I think there is a monetary, you know, limit. You’re not gonna spend $50,000 on AI tokens to like build a stupid little app. So like, whatever. But. Something to make it work better and be more specialized is what everyone needs.

[00:54:31] Robbie Wagner: ‘cause they’re all very like, oh, I can do everything, but I do it all poorly. here’s 10,000 lines of code for a thing that’s actually built into the browser already. You’re welcome. And it’s like, Hmm, okay. I wish you were a little more specialized

[00:54:44] Robbie Wagner: related, the only good AI experience I’ve had thus far is with OpenCode I started using it fucking fire. Like Dax, you can pay us for the ad time later. But, uh, like OpenCode has been so [00:55:00] good and I don’t know why it’s better. I know it like, , I’m forgetting the acronym, but it like, understands TypeScript, like what’s the fucking thing that they hook into? DDSP. D-L-S-P-D-S-L, no.

[00:55:10] Robbie Wagner: It’s like it understands TypeScript. It’s Not

[00:55:13] Adam Argyle: DSLs domain

[00:55:14] Chuck Carpenter: say DSL. That means

[00:55:15] Adam Argyle: DSL. is, well,

[00:55:16] Adam Argyle: no

[00:55:16] Adam Argyle: DSLs domain specific language, but it is

[00:55:19] Robbie Wagner: thing,

[00:55:20] Adam Argyle: LSP is language server protocol.

[00:55:22] Adam Argyle: Yeah.

[00:55:22] Adam Argyle: So

[00:55:22] Adam Argyle: the

[00:55:22] Robbie Wagner: I think

[00:55:22] Robbie Wagner: it’s that. It’s like I understand TypeScript ‘cause I connect to that and it’s like so much fucking better. I’m like, there’s these TypeScript errors and instead of being like as any or like ignore, it’s like, oh, I actually understand like where these types came from, where they should come from, how to like use generics properly and make this work.

[00:55:41] Robbie Wagner: And I’m like, holy shit. Like this is the first time I’ve used AI that it’s like actually coded something that I want to ship. so good.

[00:55:49] Adam Argyle: yeah,

[00:55:50] Adam Argyle: there’s a lot of competition in this space. Oh, go ahead, Chuck.

[00:55:52] Chuck Carpenter: I’ve been using open code a bunch lately too, and I can’t really put my finger on it, but it’s just been, it’s, it’s been sticky.

[00:55:59] Adam Argyle: I think there’s [00:56:00] also. Codex. Codex. Codex

[00:56:04] Adam Argyle: it’s Codex

[00:56:05] Chuck Carpenter: Uh,

[00:56:06] Adam Argyle: Celli, but it’s Codex here. This

[00:56:07] Chuck Carpenter: code Dicks, jeez,

[00:56:08] Chuck Carpenter: Pete, what

[00:56:09] Chuck Carpenter: is

[00:56:09] Adam Argyle: spouse to be here? And she’s like, what are you talking about? Log rockets and

[00:56:12] Adam Argyle: codex

[00:56:13] Chuck Carpenter: Oh my gosh. She’s like, well, are we gonna get sued?

[00:56:18] Adam Argyle: I don’t think so, but so, so, okay, there’s a lot of these now. So what do we have, codex? We have open code, we have

[00:56:26] Robbie Wagner: Well, I’d used Claude

[00:56:27] Robbie Wagner: Code before and it was

[00:56:30] Adam Argyle: Gemini,

[00:56:30] Robbie Wagner: like, it was better than using just like Claude in the browser, but it was still like me, like, it’s fine. But Open Code is the first one that I feel like it builds you a to-do list first, then it, like,

[00:56:43] Robbie Wagner: it will not keep going until it, it knows it’s finished each task in the to-do list and I’m

[00:56:48] Chuck Carpenter: Exactly. I

[00:56:49] Chuck Carpenter: love, I, I, I’m working on plan mode. I hit tab, then I’m like, oh, I’m in build mode. Cool. Go ahead. Yeah, I agree. Or, do the first four steps and on the fifth one, do this. And I like, [00:57:00] I’ve, I’ve been getting way better results.

[00:57:03] Robbie Wagner: Yeah.

[00:57:03] Robbie Wagner: And it’ll stop and be like, can you verify this? Like, Hey, I’ve done this. Can you run the test and see if it, like, whereas other things, I think keep trying to run the tests and like, like I was trying to do a, uh, a drag and drop thing, which is very, like, you’ve gotta look at it in the browser because

[00:57:19] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah.

[00:57:19] Adam Argyle: Is that where you dress up? Like, , the other gender and then you fall on the floor?

[00:57:23] Robbie Wagner: is Yes. And it was, it was having to watch me do that. No,

[00:57:28] Robbie Wagner: it was, uh, no. Like,

[00:57:30] Chuck Carpenter: Robbie and drag is probably the funniest thing I could think of right

[00:57:33] Chuck Carpenter: now.

[00:57:33] Adam Argyle: Oh, let’s ask, uh, AI

[00:57:35] Adam Argyle: to

[00:57:36] Adam Argyle: make

[00:57:36] Chuck Carpenter: Oh, yeah. Yeah. There, go ahead and get this picture. And I’m putting it into nano banana.

[00:57:41] Robbie Wagner: Okay. Anyway, I was trying to say that like anything where you need to like actually click or move things and like, it’s hard to like automate with like a unit test. it should stop and be like, could you verify this is doing? What you thought it should, because like otherwise, it’s just like, yep, yep, I fixed it.

[00:57:59] Robbie Wagner: It’s, [00:58:00] it’s dope. And then

[00:58:00] Robbie Wagner: it’s

[00:58:01] Adam Argyle: Well, that’s where you need the playwright, MCP. So that’s where it spins, open the browser and then tries to use the browser to use and verify its own thing. So it’s,

[00:58:08] Adam Argyle: but I mostly agree that like, Claude, when it spins up local dev, I don’t want it to, to do that. I’m like, no, I’ve got dev server running in another tab like I don’t need.

[00:58:15] Adam Argyle: So a lot of people in their cloud markdowns will tell it to never do that. But I agree that like adding a plan is a great way to continually steer the otherwise dumb word vomit machine.

[00:58:26] Chuck Carpenter: I always want the plan so I could talk about what we’re gonna do. So I always start in plan mode.

[00:58:31] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. But then it’s like, does it understand the plan? That’s my big problem is like, it sounds like, whoa, you really understand this. Could you implement it? And it’s like, ha, no. Like no way, man.

[00:58:42] Chuck Carpenter: No, but you can.

[00:58:44] Robbie Wagner: Yeah.

[00:58:45] Chuck Carpenter: I ran out of, I ran out of tokens for today. You’re

[00:58:48] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, it’s like, let me teach you Neo Vim so you could write it.

[00:58:51] Chuck Carpenter: Hmm?

[00:58:52] Adam Argyle: I learned how, uh, bolt and lovable work have

[00:58:55] Chuck Carpenter: I’ve

[00:58:56] Robbie Wagner: Is there just a team of people implementing it behind the scenes?

[00:58:59] Chuck Carpenter: I have tried [00:59:00] both of those, but it’s been a few months and they were both fucking garbage. But maybe they’re better now.

[00:59:05] Adam Argyle: They’re still marginally better than your own one shot prompts, and I learned why. It’s because they do the multi-agent ization for you in the background.

[00:59:14] Adam Argyle: So it’s like you, you were a naive human. Do this thing that I wrote for five seconds and make sure it’s super beautiful. Fulfill my dreams, you know, and so then it goes and like writes the plan, doesn’t just write the plan, it then distributes the plan amongst its own specialized agents, runs all those in parallel and does all that stuff in the background for you.

[00:59:33] Adam Argyle: So this is why those generally have better results than other people’s work is ‘cause most people don’t know that they can do that stuff themselves,

[00:59:40] Adam Argyle: at the CLI level, depending on, I think most of the CLI tools, uh, can do that now.

[00:59:45] Adam Argyle: But if you like that plan stuff, you gotta check out Spec Kit, this episode brought to you by GitHub Spec Kit,

[00:59:52] Adam Argyle: uh, which is a way for you not to just make a basic plan.

[00:59:54] Adam Argyle: This

[00:59:54] Robbie Wagner: yeah.

[00:59:56] Adam Argyle: This is not just a few. Yeah. And not [01:00:00] just like a few bullets that you say. Tasks one through five. This is steps one through five. Each step has multiple to-dos inside of it, and, uh, it’ll burn through huge , task lists. It feels nice ‘cause I like front loading what my user journeys are, what is the point of my service.

[01:00:17] Adam Argyle: Like, so when you make a little to-do list, , it’s not always grounded in the grander idea. And this is why we don’t, they don’t know what’s going on and they still don’t know what’s going on. Everyone even know you give it this plan, it still doesn’t know why or what the grander plan is, but it does know that when it makes that next word, it’s very likely that you will like it more because of some of the background you gave it.

[01:00:36] Adam Argyle: so anyway, just some like weird information about how Bolton lovable work, how you can run multiple agents in one terminal to have them group a task and work against each other. , And I just thought that was really interesting. I felt like I was powerful over my computer ‘cause I had multiple agents working on one problem.

[01:00:53] Chuck Carpenter: managing robots could be in our future anyway, so I think it’s worthwhile experience. [01:01:00] Something to experiment with. I don’t know why I’m drinking more shitty whiskey, but it, makes the conversation

[01:01:07] Adam Argyle: Is that city whiskey? Like in South Park? Oh, shitty whiskey.

[01:01:12] Robbie Wagner: I.

[01:01:12] Chuck Carpenter: Nah, I thought that sca

[01:01:15] Adam Argyle: Oh,

[01:01:16] Chuck Carpenter: uh, I can stream South Park. Hey wait, no, I can stream South Park because I have proton VPN and

[01:01:23] Chuck Carpenter: I have that set up exactly. I have it, , configured in my router. So I have two routers set up and I have one that is when I wanna watch us stuff. And then I just have the normal router when we just want stuff to go fast and we don’t care.

[01:01:37] Chuck Carpenter: yeah, so if you wanna spoof and pretend like you’re in the US because HBO Max does not work overseas and there’s a couple of similar services, well guess what? Tricking you motherfuckers. You’re still taking my money. So yeah, do that. Does anybody have clever, your wifi network name? Like, is it anything funny and clever?

[01:01:59] Adam Argyle: I call [01:02:00] mine super virus so that it’s deterring to people and they’re like, oh, I’m not gonna connect to Super virus. I’ll

[01:02:05] Adam Argyle: connect to the one

[01:02:05] Adam Argyle: next

[01:02:05] Robbie Wagner: used to do, uh,

[01:02:07] Robbie Wagner: Abraham Lysis.

[01:02:09] Chuck Carpenter: I was just say I had, , thank you Cyrus. , FBI surveillance fan was my old one. , My current us one is called Wu-Tang Land

[01:02:18] Adam Argyle: W

[01:02:18] Adam Argyle: ting land. Nice.

[01:02:24] Adam Argyle: That’s a good mic drop. yeah.

[01:02:26] Chuck Carpenter: Bo Yeah. So there you go. Fun stuff. Proton. VPN works pretty good for that. I used to have a different VPN, but this, it wasn’t working very well. So paid for proton and. It’s worked pretty good. I was gonna set up like a raspberry pie or something in Tucson, but I got busy and then I was like, also my mother-in-law can’t go unplug that thing every once in a while, so fuck it.

[01:02:49] Adam Argyle: I used to have a Cujo, , Cujo Security.

[01:02:52] Adam Argyle: Lemme

[01:02:52] Adam Argyle: see if I

[01:02:52] Adam Argyle: can

[01:02:52] Chuck Carpenter: dog with rabies, right?

[01:02:55] Adam Argyle: Hey, look at this. It’s still here. Uh, is it a dog with

[01:02:58] Adam Argyle: rabies?

[01:02:58] Chuck Carpenter: There’s the, , [01:03:00] that was a, a Stephen King book and movie called Cujo, and it’s a dog with rabies that like terrorizes, the family

[01:03:08] Chuck Carpenter: in

[01:03:08] Chuck Carpenter: town.

[01:03:08] Adam Argyle: Oh, wait, this, this isn’t it. Where’s Cujo? Oh, shit. Oh, here it was. Here’s a video. Cujo, smart Firewall. 2018. So this was like a little device you put in between your, , route or like your modem and your network. And so it would. constantly get updates and downloads, like what’s not good? And all your packets that went through it would just scan ‘em and either prevent them or not.

[01:03:27] Adam Argyle: And it made sure that people couldn’t, it would also randomize the ips of all the connected devices in your home so people couldn’t just walk by and like sniff out your ips and then start hacking the vulnerable ones. It would do a lot of like intelligent security thing for just like a plebe. It’s like, Hey, are you a moron?

[01:03:43] Adam Argyle: Are you just

[01:03:44] Adam Argyle: wildly

[01:03:44] Adam Argyle: making

[01:03:45] Adam Argyle: your network available for

[01:03:46] Chuck Carpenter: Yes, I am.

[01:03:47] Adam Argyle: then you should download Cujo. , And I wanted it to work so good. And it eventually got really slow, which is

[01:03:52] Chuck Carpenter: Oh, I was gonna say it sounded like a pie hole at first, but then started doing other smarter things. So [01:04:00] you’re a pie hole.

[01:04:01] Adam Argyle: I have a big pie hole. It keeps talking. I can’t stop

[01:04:03] Adam Argyle: it.

[01:04:04] Robbie Wagner: We are

[01:04:06] Chuck Carpenter: Over time,

[01:04:07] Robbie Wagner: What would you guys like to plug?

[01:04:08] Chuck Carpenter: your face.

[01:04:10] Robbie Wagner: Okay. Your face.io. All right,

[01:04:14] Adam Argyle: Uh, I’ll plug my website. nerdy.dev. Go check it out. I’m, I’m back in blogging again. There’s some, some goodies in there. And, uh, take my code please, please. I give a lot of free code away. impress your friends with it.

[01:04:25] Robbie Wagner: cool.

[01:04:26] Chuck Carpenter: I’d like to plug Como fc in Syria in my town. , Doing really well this season. I don’t know. I don’t get any money from them.

[01:04:35] Robbie Wagner: Check out Star pod.dev. Want a podcast

[01:04:38] Robbie Wagner: website, you should use it.

[01:04:40] Adam Argyle: We didn’t talk about the sparkles. We added, man,

[01:04:42] Adam Argyle: we

[01:04:42] Adam Argyle: added

[01:04:42] Robbie Wagner: That’s true. And we paired and Adam did some great little, uh, I don’t know what you call it, little, yeah. Sparkles is a good word, I guess. But like, things coming out of the rocket ship to like be like, I’m moving.

[01:04:54] Chuck Carpenter: Hmm. Rainbow farts.

[01:04:57] Adam Argyle: Mm-hmm.

[01:04:58] Robbie Wagner: All

[01:04:58] Robbie Wagner: right.

[01:04:58] Chuck Carpenter: what happens.

[01:04:59] Robbie Wagner: [01:05:00] Yeah. You wanna, you wanna beatbox this out, Chuck?

[01:05:02] Chuck Carpenter: No, I don’t want to, I thought about it, but I just put it on the spot and it just has to come to me and it’s

[01:05:08] Robbie Wagner: All right. All right. Well catch everybody next time.

[01:05:12] Chuck Carpenter: Boo Bo.

[01:05:14] Outro: You’ve been watching Whiskey Web and Whatnot. Recorded in front of a live studio audience. What the fuck are you talking about, Chuck? Enjoyed the show? Subscribe. You know, people don’t pay attention to these, right? Head to whiskey.fund for merchant to join our Discord server. I’m serious, it’s like 2% of people who actually click these links. And don’t forget to leave us a five star review and tell your friends about the show. All right, dude, I’m outta here. Still got it.