206: Live from Big Sky Dev Con: Code Debates, Content Insights, and What's Next for Web Development

[00:00:00] Intro: Welcome to Syntax. Welcome to a brand new episode of the Front End Happy Hour podcast. Welcome to this week’s JS Party. Live from Ship Shape Studios, this is Whiskey Web and Whatnot. With your hosts, RobbieTheWagner, and me, Charles William Carpenter III. That’s right Charles. We drink whiskey and talk about web development.

[00:00:27] Intro: I mean, it’s all in the name. It’s not that deep. This is Whiskey Web and Whatnot. Do not adjust your set.

[00:00:36] Robbie Wagner: Hey everybody.

[00:00:38] Ken: Test, test,

[00:00:38] Robbie Wagner: is Whiskey Web and whatnot. Live from Big Sky devcon with lots of feedback. And the name entails, we drink whiskey on this show. So before I say much else, we’re just gonna jump right into that and pour this for everyone.

[00:00:55] Typecraft: what do we got? We’ve got the Undammed Distilling [00:01:00] Company, shields River Single Malt Whiskey.

[00:01:03] Robbie Wagner: Handcrafted in Montana, 119.6 proof. ‘cause one 20 was too much. And I don’t know what the mash bill is, but it says it’s a single malt. So I guess malted barley and don’t know the age, but let’s, let’s give it a, a try.

[00:01:16] Aaron: I still got a job to do after this, so it’s good. A easy

[00:01:21] Ken: It’s okay. I’ll drink his. You

[00:01:22] Aaron: Yeah. You still have a job to do too, by the way.

[00:01:25] Ken: And how do we prepare for that?

[00:01:28] Typecraft: Gotta calm

[00:01:29] Robbie Wagner: All right. Yeah, there you go. There’s a little bit. Everyone is welcome to more as needed, so I will start smaller.

[00:01:36] Typecraft: Smells nice.

[00:01:38] Robbie Wagner: Give it a little sniffy sniff. Let’s

[00:01:40] Ken: A little swirl.

[00:01:42] Aaron: In, in our red solo cups. Mm mm Definitely,

[00:01:46] Robbie Wagner: Well, we had just paper cups and I was like, I’ve done whiskey in a paper cup. It’s not a good idea. It, it melts the cup. All right. Yeah. I, I can’t really smell a lot from

[00:01:55] Aaron: Hey to Carson. Huh? How about that? To Carson?

[00:01:58] Robbie Wagner: Yeah,

[00:01:58] Robbie Wagner: Hey, it’s Carson, Yeah, [00:02:00]

[00:02:00] Aaron: to, here’s to you, bud.

[00:02:02] Ken: Salute.

[00:02:03] Typecraft: I’m getting a bit of apricot.

[00:02:05] Robbie Wagner: Oh, is it dried apricot or wet apricot.

[00:02:07] Typecraft: Are you getting apricot too?

[00:02:08] Robbie Wagner: A lot of apricot?

[00:02:09] Typecraft: lied. I don’t know what I’m tasting. I I just apricot sounded fun. Yeah, I’d like. You know what?

[00:02:14] Robbie Wagner: I thought that was a Chuck reference. Do you know the joke there?

[00:02:16] Typecraft: Oh, he always says

[00:02:17] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, he always does. Yeah.

[00:02:18] Ken: really,

[00:02:20] Robbie Wagner: Oh yeah. I don’t know. Definitely does a little fruity tastes like water.

[00:02:24] Ken: joke.

[00:02:26] Typecraft: tastes like mommy’s kisses.

[00:02:28] Ken: Mm-hmm.

[00:02:30] Robbie Wagner: did.

[00:02:31] Aaron: That’s, yeah. I’m, I’m, I’m already

[00:02:32] Robbie Wagner: back. Oh yeah. Little, little bit.

[00:02:34] Ken: It’s sharp on the

[00:02:35] Robbie Wagner: Oh man. Little

[00:02:36] Aaron: A little, a little smoky. Huh?

[00:02:37] Robbie Wagner: huh? Yeah.

[00:02:38] Ken: It is

[00:02:38] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, it’s a little hot.

[00:02:40] Robbie Wagner: So we have a highly technical rating system on this podcast.

[00:02:43] Robbie Wagner: It is zero to eight tentacles. Let’s just run down the line. You prepared?

[00:02:49] Aaron: I’m saying four. This

[00:02:50] Aaron: is, This

[00:02:51] Aaron: is not my favorite. It’s a little it’s a little too much for me. I’m a delicate young

[00:02:54] Robbie Wagner: Okay. Okay. . Yeah, for a single malt, this is pretty good. ‘cause I don’t typically like a single malt. [00:03:00] This is, uh, I’m gonna give it a five and a half.

[00:03:02] Typecraft: Wow.

[00:03:03] Typecraft: it’s kind of hot for me. so I’m gonna give it a four as well. I think I’m in the four

[00:03:07] Aaron: Yep. My man,

[00:03:08] Ken: I’m gonna give it an eight. An eight,

[00:03:10] Robbie Wagner: An eight.

[00:03:10] Ken: yeah.

[00:03:11] Aaron: it’s alcohol.

[00:03:12] Robbie Wagner: here. Yeah, it’s here. Nice, nice. Cool. Alright.

[00:03:16] Robbie Wagner: So we have, yeah, I totally skipped letting you guys introduce yourselves, but you’ve all been on the show, so like people probably, and we’re at a conference where people all know who you are. So we’ll skip that. It’s fine.

[00:03:29] Aaron: My name’s Ken Wheeler. I’m so excited to be here. Thanks for having me.

[00:03:32] Aaron: Yeah, Perfect.

[00:03:33] Aaron: Everybody knows,

[00:03:35] Typecraft: My name is Chuck Carpenter.

[00:03:38] Typecraft: I’m the

[00:03:38] Robbie Wagner: Are you moving to Italy soon?

[00:03:39] Typecraft: I’m in Italy right

[00:03:40] Robbie Wagner: now. Oh,

[00:03:41] Typecraft: hologram.

[00:03:42] Robbie Wagner: Okay.

[00:03:43] Ken: my name is, uh, Guillermo Rauch.

[00:03:44] Aaron: Oh.

[00:03:45] Aaron: perfect.

[00:03:46] Robbie Wagner: Oh, can we, can we squash the beef today? Can we talk about that? No. Okay, cool.

[00:03:52] Robbie Wagner: Alright. Hard hitting question. Is H-T-M-L-A programming language?

[00:03:56] Typecraft: No, it’s markup.

[00:03:59] Robbie Wagner: [00:04:00] Okay. So I have a specific argument about this. So, is Java a programming language?

[00:04:06] Typecraft: All right. I know this is a trap.

[00:04:08] Aaron: Yeah, don’t answer

[00:04:09] Typecraft: I don’t want to answer, but I will say yes.

[00:04:12] Robbie Wagner: Okay. So Java is compiled

[00:04:16] Robbie Wagner: And turned into something that a computer can understand,

[00:04:19] Robbie Wagner: right? Is HTML not,

[00:04:22] Typecraft: I’m gonna say it must be.

[00:04:23] Aaron: boo.

[00:04:25] Typecraft: But I think that’s a bad comparison,

[00:04:27] Typecraft: Although

[00:04:28] Typecraft: I will say you have a bit of an agenda here. Your talk was all on the new stuff in

[00:04:33] Robbie Wagner: that’s true. replacing JavaScript components and just destroying JS steps.

[00:04:39] Aaron: These big HDML, who’s paying you?

[00:04:43] Robbie Wagner: Listen, HTML has a lot of cash on

[00:04:45] Robbie Wagner: hand.

[00:04:45] Aaron: I bet. I bet.

[00:04:49] Robbie Wagner: Okay. Anyone else? You say it’s a I, yeah, I think so. , Because the way I define, I think pretty much everything is a programming language. If you can type in something and it becomes something [00:05:00] else, then it’s a programming language.

[00:05:02] Aaron: Disagree.

[00:05:03] Robbie Wagner: Okay, so say more crazy.

[00:05:05] Aaron: That’s a crazy talk. HT MX is a programming

[00:05:08] Aaron: language Now that, that, I agree with.

[00:05:11] Aaron: uh,

[00:05:12] Aaron: I don’t know. One, I don’t think it matters. Two, I think HTML and CSS are serve, I mean, you could bake in logic, but like I’m thinking if there’s no, if there’s nowhere to write the business logic, it’s more the presentation layer.

[00:05:25] Aaron: I think that’s my realistic,

[00:05:26] Typecraft: A programming language has to do computation of some

[00:05:29] Typecraft: sort.

[00:05:30] Robbie Wagner: Mm.

[00:05:30] Robbie Wagner: Okay. Then follow up question, is CSSA programming language?

[00:05:35] Robbie Wagner: yeah.

[00:05:35] Typecraft: were going there.

[00:05:36] Aaron: yeah.

[00:05:37] Ken: I’ve seen what those kids do. Oh, yes. Yeah, no, that’s a, that’s a programming language.

[00:05:41] Ken: HTML, that feels like templates to me. Like

[00:05:44] Ken: it’s, it’s templating, right? It’s not like I built a chat bot with HTML,

[00:05:49] Robbie Wagner: I guess that’s true. Yeah.

[00:05:51] Robbie Wagner: I

[00:05:51] Typecraft: agree. I, I, I would say CSS is more in the realm of programming language than HDML.

[00:05:57] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, that’s fair.

[00:05:58] Typecraft: That’s a good take. I

[00:05:59] Aaron: I am gonna say no. [00:06:00] But I’m gonna say again, it doesn’t matter. HTML and CSS are very hard and very valuable, but I don’t think they’re programming languages.

[00:06:07] Robbie Wagner: but if you combine them, they are Turing complete.

[00:06:10] Aaron: That is interesting.

[00:06:11] Aaron: I don’t think that passes my made up bar that I’m Is not, is not quite well defined. Yeah.

[00:06:17] Robbie Wagner: all objective here. There’s no objective.

[00:06:19] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. I mean, Minecraft is to complete as well. So,

[00:06:22] Robbie Wagner: and Minecraft,

[00:06:23] Robbie Wagner: you can build computers in Minecraft. Well, it could be. Is it,

[00:06:26] Typecraft: everyone knows Minecraft is programming

[00:06:28] Robbie Wagner: language. Yeah,

[00:06:29] Typecraft: that’s well

[00:06:29] Typecraft: established. Yeah.

[00:06:34] Robbie Wagner: Okay.

[00:06:34] Robbie Wagner: So. Let’s move into something a little bit different. , Let’s talk about React, ‘cause I love React. did you see Michael Jackson’s tweet about killing hooks recently? you guys see that? No. I am very jazzed about it. He basically said, uh, hooks were a mistake and I’m gonna get rid of him.

[00:06:51] Robbie Wagner: yes. That’s awesome.

[00:06:53] Robbie Wagner: And so do you think we’ll go back to classes being cool?

[00:06:56] Ken: Classes are already

[00:06:57] Aaron: Classes

[00:06:58] Aaron: have always been

[00:06:58] Aaron: cool.[00:07:00]

[00:07:00] Aaron: This is, this is I, we are simpatico. I a hundred percent agree with Ken. They’re Yeah, I agree too. I saw that class in your talk, by the way.

[00:07:10] Robbie Wagner: that’s

[00:07:10] Typecraft: I

[00:07:10] Typecraft: like stimulus. It’s based on classes

[00:07:12] Typecraft: and it’s just, it’s like what React used to be there. It’s a class, there’s lifecycle hooks, and it’s just like more pleasant to

[00:07:19] Typecraft: work with. It’s wonderful. And so, yeah, I. I hope it goes back

[00:07:23] Aaron: You get state behavior encapsulation. It’s beautiful. I love it.

[00:07:29] Typecraft: it’s, it’s way better than, like,

[00:07:30] Ken: instance members

[00:07:31] Aaron: Mm-hmm. it’s way better than having like a function that’s potentially gonna be run thousands and thousands and thousands of times unless you put just the right things in the, uh, in the array of stuff that will break that.

[00:07:46] Ken: excuse me, I’m sorry. There’s an ES limp plugin for that. Okay.

[00:07:49] Robbie Wagner: yeah,

[00:07:51] Typecraft: point. Yeah.

[00:07:52] Robbie Wagner: yeah.

[00:07:53] Aaron: I like that. Also, classes are discoverable, so like this whole type script thing, who has the time, but[00:08:00]

[00:08:01] Aaron: When you’re passing around these giant blobs, you gotta define ‘em. You gotta write out somewhere. Here’s what the blob looks like when you’re dealing with a class. It’s able to be inferred much more easily.

[00:08:10] Aaron: And that, like, I’m a, I’m, I come, don’t tell anybody, but I’m a PhD P man

[00:08:13] Aaron: myself,

[00:08:15] Aaron: We love classes, man. We live for classes. We, we have some unstructured arrays, but the classes are great ‘cause you know what the methods are. You know what the properties are and you just, like, everything can be inferred by your IDE or your tooling or whatever.

[00:08:27] Robbie Wagner: yeah,

[00:08:28] Typecraft: I agree. I think object oriented programming is best suited for web development. I know that some people would argue that with like elixir and more functional things, and I could see that being a good use case for some applications or some uses. But would you agree that object oriented programming is just like a better mental model for what you’re trying to do with the web?

[00:08:51] Robbie Wagner: I

[00:08:51] Robbie Wagner: think it’s a better mental model for all programming. Honestly. Like whenever I’m thinking about a problem, I’m thinking about the problem as an entity, and that entity could [00:09:00] be a class which has certain behaviors and you know, things on it.

[00:09:04] Robbie Wagner: So like I feel like people are still thinking about that when they’re doing functional programming. There’s still an entity you’re trying to build up through all these pieces that are just plain functions or whatever. Mm-hmm. But yeah, I just think it’s, it’s better in general.

[00:09:17] Aaron: Has Michael talked about classes coming back, or is this just speculation? He

[00:09:22] Aaron: just,

[00:09:22] Aaron: he, he said, hooks.

[00:09:24] Aaron: hooks are done, but he hasn’t said yet what’s coming back or what’s picking its but he’s not necessarily in a position to even do that. Right.

[00:09:32] Robbie Wagner: No, but well, I mean,

[00:09:34] Ken: I mean, can is new thing, but I’m saying like react proper. well, well, react is owned by Versal now, basically, Yeah.

[00:09:40] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. It’s, they’re basically like, literally, but uh, you know, he’s not in a position to go pull classes out.

[00:09:46] Ken: He’ll do his own Because they’re, yeah, they’re not even using React and Remix now, right? Like they’re just doing their own

[00:09:52] Ken: I think so, but I mean, I don’t know. That, that is my understanding from the very outside.

[00:09:56] Robbie Wagner: Yeah.

[00:09:57] Ken: Looks cool though. Stuff you see

[00:09:59] Robbie Wagner: Hey, I like [00:10:00] remix. I think there’s a lot of smart people working on it,

[00:10:02] Robbie Wagner: Okay. Let’s talk about the T app fiasco.

[00:10:07] Ken: the what?

[00:10:08] Typecraft: Oh, the T app.

[00:10:09] Robbie Wagner: Have you seen the T

[00:10:10] Robbie Wagner: app.

[00:10:10] Robbie Wagner: Oh

[00:10:10] Robbie Wagner: my God. Yes.

[00:10:11] Robbie Wagner: Okay. So yeah, for anyone who hasn’t seen, basically there was this app that was built that it was for women to complain about men.

[00:10:20] Robbie Wagner: And all of the data was hacked.

[00:10:23] Aaron: including including and most unfortunately driver’s

[00:10:28] Robbie Wagner: Yes, That

[00:10:28] Typecraft: is, that’s, yeah.

[00:10:30] Aaron: that’s

[00:10:30] Aaron: un, that’s unforgivable.

[00:10:31] Ken: it was a good idea to give us liquor and have us opine on gender.

[00:10:36] Aaron: Maybe we’ll keep it shifted on this side of the stage for this

[00:10:40] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. Yeah. so the, content of the app and whatever is not, not the point. Yeah. Like the thing I was gonna get at is.

[00:10:48] Robbie Wagner: What

[00:10:49] Robbie Wagner: is the responsibility of these services? Like, should Firebase be doing a better job of saying like, you should not make this public, you should like, you know, do whatever.

[00:10:59] Robbie Wagner: Like should they bring [00:11:00] more handholding or is that on them for not doing the research?

[00:11:03] Typecraft: Yeah, I, I have one question to back up just a little bit. ‘cause this is kind of vague. I, I think I’ve seen a couple posts that would say this and some that maybe don’t, but was the problem that it was like a, a vibe coded kind of app?

[00:11:15] Aaron: No, no. The, the problem was a, a tale as old as time, an unsecured bucket

[00:11:21] Aaron: somebody found it and enumerated it and got it all. and this was an app in the app store, right?

[00:11:26] Ken: Yeah.

[00:11:26] Robbie Wagner: I think so, yeah.

[00:11:27] Aaron: So I think the, burden, first and foremost, in my opinion, falls on the developer, obviously. And I think if you’re going to collect PII, You have to hold yourself to a higher standard. And I would personally, if I, for whatever reason, thought I needed to verify identities, I would use stripes identity verification. I want to touch as little of that as possible.

[00:11:48] Robbie Wagner: yeah.

[00:11:49] Aaron: Do you need to verify identities? I don’t know. I don’t know the details. But then the misconfiguration of the bucket. is pretty bad. Like obviously people make mistakes, but that’s a, if you’re gonna have a [00:12:00] cloud service and you have a bucket with PII in it, you gotta make sure that you can’t just enumerate it.

[00:12:05] Aaron: So I think the app store holds some responsibility, but they, they don’t know. I think it unfortunately comes back to the developer.

[00:12:12] Aaron: I don’t think it’s a firebase problem. Maybe Firebase needs better defaults.

[00:12:17] Aaron: I haven’t ever used it, but. Do not touch. PII. If

[00:12:21] Robbie Wagner: you

[00:12:21] Robbie Wagner: can

[00:12:21] Robbie Wagner: not to.

[00:12:21] Aaron: not to.

[00:12:22] Ken: I think it falls squarely on the developer. And at the same time, I don’t think that, you know, they should be shamed meaningfully, but I don’t think that there should be legislation or regulation put in place.

[00:12:37] Ken: Have you tried to send a text message programmatically recently?

[00:12:41] Robbie Wagner: No.

[00:12:43] Ken: It’s really hard.

[00:12:44] Ken: It’s really bad.

[00:12:45] Robbie Wagner: techs I get every day.

[00:12:47] Ken: I don’t know

[00:12:47] Ken: how, I don’t know how they’re getting certified for it, but

[00:12:49] Ken: whatever they did, it’s. Yeah, there’s regulation in place where you’re, you’re not allowed to like use like Twilio without going through this like wild process.

[00:12:59] Robbie Wagner: I know there’s [00:13:00] also like something where if they send a message from a number, if it gets replies back, it like validates it or something. ‘cause they’re like, you’ll get a text that’s like, Hey, can you go golfing today from a number you’ve never

[00:13:12] Robbie Wagner: seen. Hey,

[00:13:12] Robbie Wagner: I’m at

[00:13:13] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. And so if you reply to that and like have a conversation with them, then it’s like whitelisted and they can just send like everything.

[00:13:21] Robbie Wagner: So anytime you get a spam text, just reply, stop and report it to

[00:13:26] Aaron: Yeah.

[00:13:26] Aaron: do not reply. Sorry. I think you have the wrong

[00:13:28] Robbie Wagner: Yeah.

[00:13:29] Robbie Wagner: that’s

[00:13:29] Aaron: exactly what they want.

[00:13:30] Robbie Wagner: Hey,

[00:13:31] Typecraft: uh, I think you had the wrong guy. I’m actually Chris.

[00:13:33] Typecraft: Uh, I live here

[00:13:34] Aaron: Yeah.

[00:13:35] Robbie Wagner: you

[00:13:35] Robbie Wagner: know,

[00:13:35] Robbie Wagner: this is my

[00:13:35] Robbie Wagner: address.

[00:13:36] Aaron: to prove

[00:13:37] Typecraft: Here’s my driver’s license. but yeah, that’s,

[00:13:39] Typecraft: it’s

[00:13:39] Typecraft: an

[00:13:39] Typecraft: interesting

[00:13:39] Typecraft: question about like PII in general because there’s so many third party apps and platforms for handling and PII. But like you said, there shouldn’t be legislation against that.

[00:13:53] Typecraft: You should still have the freedom to choose whatever provider or whatever process you have to go through in order to be [00:14:00] like PII certified, whatever that certification is called. I think it’s crazy. They must have been handling PII without being certified. And that’s an interesting like thing to think about is like, how does that get through the cracks?

[00:14:12] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. Well I think if you think about, you know, something less high stakes, your vercel bill could be $50,000 all of a sudden, right? Shouldn’t they have a thing that goes, Hey, I think like someone is attacking you.

[00:14:25] Robbie Wagner: Mm-hmm. Your bill is normally $500 and now it’s 50,000 because something happened. They’re like, I feel like these providers, if they want you to use SaaS products, should be like, here’s all these safeguards. We do it for you. That’s the whole point. if they’re not doing that, then why wouldn’t you just like, man, I guess

[00:14:40] Robbie Wagner: ‘cause

[00:14:40] Ken: a roll your own problem, right? Like

[00:14:43] Ken: if you go through a company that provides and does that,

[00:14:47] Robbie Wagner: right.

[00:14:48] Ken: that you know it’s guaranteed that it’s gonna be secure. But, you know, if you’re just dumping images in a bucket,

[00:14:53] Robbie Wagner: I guess that’s true. Yeah. It depends on the, the thing you’re doing, I guess.

[00:14:56] Robbie Wagner: But.

[00:14:58] Ken: You know, we should get outta here. We [00:15:00] should go build clerk for this. Get a couple mill. You know?

[00:15:05] Robbie Wagner: Check out, uh, check out our new product coming soon.

[00:15:08] Ken: Yeah.

[00:15:10] Robbie Wagner: Okay, so similarly, if we want to continue talking about security, there was an issue with, , I don’t know if it was just stylists, but I know I saw stylists was one of the problems where like they flagged it as malicious code on NPM and a lot of stuff relied on it, and then all of their builds didn’t work.

[00:15:28] Robbie Wagner: So like major things were just all down for like a day.

[00:15:32] Robbie Wagner: Because of that. I don’t know if there’s a question here. Uh, how do you guys feel about, , like should NPM be, solely in charge of that? How do you mitigate that? Should you check in all of your node modules? That seems kind of overkill, but like what, what are your thoughts?

[00:15:46] Typecraft: Well, it’s interesting, like, um, almost all like modern programming languages, frameworks, whatever, they all have package repositories

[00:15:53] Typecraft: where people

[00:15:54] Typecraft: have built really solid and, meaningful pieces of code that a lot of people want to use in their [00:16:00] applications. and

[00:16:00] Typecraft: I don’t know how NPM has this very specific problem, actually, I think I do.

[00:16:05] Typecraft: I think it’s because JavaScript at first didn’t have a very big standard library. It was made really, really fast. it’s a great programming language, but it came out with, it was very light. So you needed ways to add this behavior to your code that otherwise you wouldn’t wanna roll your own.

[00:16:23] Typecraft: And

[00:16:23] Typecraft: so

[00:16:24] Typecraft: I think that’s why NPM to start off with was just so huge and had so many packages.

[00:16:30] Typecraft: That’s because,

[00:16:31] Robbie Wagner: a hundred K color pickers,

[00:16:32] Typecraft: yeah, a hundred thousand color figures,

[00:16:34] Typecraft: that’s because JavaScript was just lacking in a way. And so it is kind of a, a problem that is unique to NPM, I think. But at the same time, yeah, it’s a good question to bring up. I don’t have a.

[00:16:45] Aaron: Yes. I think in NPM at the expense of a few false positives, NPM should be enforcing that

[00:16:52] Aaron: a hundred percent. And

[00:16:54] Aaron: yeah, I think there’s an argument to be made that you as the developer are responsible [00:17:00] for reproducible builds. And if NPM goes down like that actually does fall back on you as a developer, which may mean you don’t deploy then, which is fine.

[00:17:08] Aaron: You just don’t care. Or you have a, like, you have a copy of everything. I think that’s totally reasonable. what I would do is just not deploy then like, oh, well, you know, this is the risk. Like this is the risk I signed up for by letting them host everything. But I think for if NPM flags a few things, it shouldn’t, every now and then, I’m totally okay with that.

[00:17:28] Aaron: If they flag, you know, most of the things that they should, I’m okay with that trade off.

[00:17:33] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, I think that makes sense.

[00:17:34] Typecraft: I agree.

[00:17:35] Typecraft: Mm-hmm.

[00:17:35] Robbie Wagner: Ken?

[00:17:40] Ken: I don’t think there’s anything in place from someone pushing out a patch that should be a major right now.

[00:17:52] Ken: So, it’s not the kind of thing you want to say out loud, but the system is. has weak [00:18:00] spots.

[00:18:00] Robbie Wagner: Yeah.

[00:18:01] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. You’re relying on everyone to correctly use Ciber and adhere to the whatever license they’ve picked. Most people do MIT, but like there’s nothing saying that you could just change it or like not know what the license even means and do things that violate the license,

[00:18:16] Ken: like it goes deeper too.

[00:18:18] Ken: Right? Like, like you are installing Date picker. LOL. Right.

[00:18:23] Typecraft: Hello?

[00:18:23] Ken: But date picker, LOL depends on, you know, nine different dependencies, which in and of themselves depend on an additional 14 dependencies. So it’s really kind of a hard topology to keep an eye on

[00:18:36] Robbie Wagner: Mm-hmm.

[00:18:36] Ken: Right. And there’s tools. There are tools,

[00:18:39] Robbie Wagner: We have proprietary tools. That’s why I ask about this. ‘cause we had a thing that flagged, have you guys heard of numerical recipes?

[00:18:45] Ken: What is it?

[00:18:46] Robbie Wagner: Numerical recipes. It’s like a 60-year-old book. And they put a bunch of constants in the book. Like, this is how you calculate like the seconds, from like the epoch or like, I don’t know, things that are like, not copyrightable in my opinion, [00:19:00] but they copywrote the whole book.

[00:19:01] Robbie Wagner: And if you use any of the constants, you have to mention that you got it from their book. And so this was flagged in like a bunch of go packages and I was like. Hmm. All right. I don’t know anything about go, but I’m just gonna say this is an internal tool. I don’t care, but like, it’s just hilarious, like the way licenses work

[00:19:21] Aaron: that thing you said about dependencies have dependencies, have dependencies, is why I think NPM ultimately does need to be responsible for that. ‘cause as much as I want to be. Yeah. I don’t, I can’t keep up with all the transitive

[00:19:33] Ken: you can’t sit there and police that depth graph like that.

[00:19:38] Typecraft: Yeah.

[00:19:38] Robbie Wagner: Should be

[00:19:38] Typecraft: able to.

[00:19:40] Aaron: I got a life to live. I can’t do that.

[00:19:42] Typecraft: Yeah, that’s tough. They should be able to graph out like which dependencies depend on what, what has the highest amount of dependencies depending on it. And like really police those packages first. And it could be like a cascading maybe thing. I think we’re figuring this out

[00:19:56] Aaron: Just just to bring it back to PHP, ‘cause that’s what I know everyone wants to talk about is [00:20:00] PHP. Yeah. BP’s, , package manager, composer flattens everything. So like, if A and B both rely on C, a, and B, have to agree what version of C they’re gonna rely on, and C comes out here. And so we still have transitive dependencies, but everyone has to agree on a version and

[00:20:17] Robbie Wagner: that keeps

[00:20:17] Aaron: that depth chart from exploding.

[00:20:20] Robbie Wagner: hard though. It, I imagine.

[00:20:21] Aaron: I can’t imagine. Yeah, it’s like it takes a lot of coordination from the community, but it also takes a lot of like programming from the creators of Composer.

[00:20:28] Aaron: But

[00:20:29] Robbie Wagner: it

[00:20:29] Robbie Wagner: works great.

[00:20:29] Aaron: That’s very, it’s very good.

[00:20:31] Robbie Wagner: I thought someone over here might have something to say, but it seems like they don’t. Okay.

[00:20:36] Robbie Wagner: So you guys all make lots of content, do lots of things, give lots of talks,

[00:20:42] Ken: I think these guys make a

[00:20:43] Ken: little bit more content than I do.

[00:20:44] Robbie Wagner: Yes.

[00:20:45] Robbie Wagner: Yeah.

[00:20:45] Robbie Wagner: Different

[00:20:46] Robbie Wagner: kind

[00:20:46] Typecraft: content.

[00:20:47] Ken: yeah.

[00:20:47] Ken: Your

[00:20:47] Robbie Wagner: content

[00:20:48] Aaron: unto yourself.

[00:20:49] Ken: I, I have, I have a lifestyle brand.

[00:20:51] Aaron: Yes,

[00:20:51] Robbie Wagner: Yes, yes. But the question is, uh, what’s your process for turning technical knowledge into something people actually want to consume?

[00:20:59] Typecraft: that’s an

[00:20:59] Typecraft: interesting [00:21:00] question. I feel like everything behind what someone would want to consume kind of relies on the story you’re trying to tell behind it, right? So it’s, it’s really easy to make a video about some subject. Let’s say it’s Linux or whatever, right? But what’s more interesting is building a story behind what that video is about.

[00:21:19] Typecraft: Like, why are you interested in this? Why are you doing it? It gives you some kind of relatability and also like, I think other people will pick up on that and say, oh yeah, me too. Like I, I feel the same exact way. I think I should look into this. And so I think making stuff that people want to see is really about the story you tell behind the thing, not the thing itself.

[00:21:38] Robbie Wagner: That’s fair.

[00:21:39] Typecraft: And you gotta pick popular subjects.

[00:21:41] Aaron: Unfortunately.

[00:21:42] Typecraft: That’s why I don’t make rails videos.

[00:21:44] Aaron: Yep.

[00:21:45] Robbie Wagner: So

[00:21:46] Aaron: So I’ll, I’ll, yes, and that I agree with all of that and cosign and,

[00:21:50] Aaron: the way that it works for me is I have like a couple

[00:21:53] Aaron: Mental triggers in my head when I’m working on something and I think, oh, that’s interesting. It’s like, oh, stop. Write [00:22:00] down what was interesting, what you were thinking, what you were trying to do.

[00:22:04] Aaron: So you kind of like, you kinda have to get content brain such that you have a background process running and while you’re working and you think, I didn’t know that, or, huh, that’s interesting. Or this is weird. Those are all triggers for like. Hey, there’s an angle here. Let’s write it down and then keep moving.

[00:22:23] Aaron: Because unfortunately, you do have to do popular things that have hooks and a story and like you can’t just, if you want to have success, you have to like play the game. And part of the game is the hook. And if you can find yourself getting hooked by something, then you can turn around and make a video with kind of that same hook.

[00:22:41] Aaron: So it’s like a, background process that is just running at all times.

[00:22:45] Typecraft: Mm-hmm. There was an interesting thing I, I heard once, I don’t remember the names of the people, but someone in older, like is an old time kind of thing where he wrote, , I didn’t have time to write you a paragraph, so instead I wrote you three

[00:22:59] Aaron: Yes,

[00:22:59] Typecraft: Do

[00:22:59] Robbie Wagner: [00:23:00] know who

[00:23:00] Robbie Wagner: that

[00:23:00] Robbie Wagner: was?

[00:23:00] Aaron: I, I, know if I had enough time, I would’ve made it shorter. Yeah. But I don’t know who’s it is, like Mark Twain

[00:23:05] Aaron: or somebody like

[00:23:06] Typecraft: it was. Yeah.

[00:23:06] Typecraft: And so that’s, that’s an interesting point because. If you’re covering a whole entire subject, it’s less interesting than the little piece that you find interesting.

[00:23:15] Typecraft: Right.

[00:23:16] Typecraft: So you have to Yeah. And to, to what you were saying, like define those little things that make it go, oh, that’s interesting.

[00:23:21] Typecraft: Like those are the things you want to focus on and spend all of your time talking about. Because that is, you have to kind of refine what that message is and why it’s interesting and that that’s what gets people excited about whatever it is you’re, you’re

[00:23:35] Aaron: And, and I don’t, I don’t know about you, but you have to be excited about it. I, I have to be excited about it, otherwise, it sucks. And so, like, finding the thing that you’re excited about as you’re working, like capture that as quickly as you can because it’s just gonna, you’re gonna forget about it and it’s gonna go away.

[00:23:52] Robbie Wagner: yeah.

[00:23:52] Typecraft: that,

[00:23:52] Typecraft: and also

[00:23:53] Typecraft: you spend so much time making videos, so much time writing scripts, so much time thinking about how to come up with [00:24:00] interesting ways to present information. If it’s on a subject you don’t like, you’re gonna get completely burned out. You’re gonna drop it. You’re just, you’re just not gonna continue.

[00:24:08] Aaron: Yep.

[00:24:08] Typecraft: yeah, very important.

[00:24:10] Robbie Wagner: yeah,

[00:24:10] Aaron: What’s it like being a lifestyle brand?

[00:24:13] Typecraft: He loves his life.

[00:24:16] Ken: Just living hard man. Um, you know, at least in my experience, right? And, and, you know, not just like hot tub drinking photos, but,

[00:24:24] Ken: at least in technical content for me. I, I don’t think people really do that well with abstract things.

[00:24:31] Ken: And this, this applies not just to technical content, but many things, right?

[00:24:34] Ken: Like I’ve had times where I’ve explained to people like, oh, I have this idea for this thing and this is what it’s gonna do and it’s gonna be so cool. And they’re like, ah. And then you, you go and you build it and then show them and they can see it, and they’re like, holy shit man, that’s cool as fuck. You know, like, they’re like, this is so cool.

[00:24:49] Ken: , So like, people need to see things so I, I think like a big part of, of where I approach it from is the hook, right? Where you hook them in with something that is cool as shit. Right. Like you think of something like some demo or [00:25:00] something where like, they’re like, whoa, that’s ne, you know, uh, how, how did you go about putting that together?

[00:25:05] Ken: And it’s like, funny story, I’ll tell you right

[00:25:07] Ken: now. And then you, you start ripping through it and, you know, they, they have a incentive to listen to the next 10 minutes versus

[00:25:14] Robbie Wagner: right.

[00:25:14] Ken: buildup to, uh, look, you

[00:25:16] Ken: you know?

[00:25:17] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, yeah, that’s true. Like make sure that you’re, you’re hooking them early.

[00:25:21] Ken: Yeah.

[00:25:22] Robbie Wagner: So that it’s not like

[00:25:23] Robbie Wagner: the we do a bad job of that. ‘cause we talk about whiskey for like 10 minutes and then we talk about cool stuff. but you

[00:25:29] Typecraft: hook the whiskey drinkers,

[00:25:31] Typecraft: that’s their hook.

[00:25:31] Robbie Wagner: I think you should take the interesting bits from later and put like a few highlights at the

[00:25:36] Robbie Wagner: beginning. Mm-hmm.

[00:25:37] Robbie Wagner: And then people will be like, I know those are coming, so I’ll skip through this whiskey part and listen to the rest. Yeah.

[00:25:44] Aaron: Yes, and I think the purest form of the hook is, I’m excited. Let me tell you why I’m excited

[00:25:49] Aaron: and that that like, that feel like to what you said, that feels the best and is like, I don’t have to manufacture something, which is exhausting.

[00:25:57] Typecraft: Yeah, exactly.

[00:25:59] CTA: [00:26:00] This just in! Whiskey.fund is now open for all your merch needs. That’s right, Robbie. We’re hearing reports of hats, sweaters, and T-shirts, as well as a link to join our Discord server. What’s a Discord server? Just read the prompter, man. Hit subscribe. Leave us a review on your favorite podcast app and tell your friends about our broadcast. It really does help us reach more people and keeps the show growing. All right, back to your regularly scheduled programming.

[00:26:32] Robbie Wagner: All right. Hard hitting question now. If you had to survive in the Montana wilderness with only one piece of technology, what are you bringing?

[00:26:40] Aaron: Probably Carsten Gross, I mean,

[00:26:46] Ken: I, I don’t really want to leak alpha here, but, um, I, I, I, I. Despite very publicly disagreeing with ai, I do double. And um, so I did this thing where I, I, I set up [00:27:00] like a, a, like a SQL light vector database with embeddings from like nine gigabytes of pirated survival PDFs. And

[00:27:08] Ken: then I run it.

[00:27:09] Aaron: for this question.

[00:27:10] Typecraft: isn’t,

[00:27:10] Ken: Yeah, so then I, I, I, I run it through,

[00:27:13] Ken: a, a local Quinn instance.

[00:27:15] Ken: Obliterated so that it won’t refuse any question. that’s probably what I would bring ‘cause I could ask it any, like, I could be like, Hey, like how do you make lie? And it’s like, I’m glad you asked, and it’ll tell you. So yeah, I mean, it, it, it would give all the answers to everything else that you need to do.

[00:27:29] Ken: I’m currently working on figuring out how to put this thing into like tablet form. I have it running on a Jetson, but it’s like not doing a good job. But that’s what I would bring

[00:27:38] Aaron: I, I would bring that too.

[00:27:40] Aaron: That that’s that’s the only thing that I would bring for

[00:27:43] Aaron: sure.

[00:27:44] Aaron: Yes.

[00:27:45] Aaron: Nine, nine gigabytes of survival media that you can ask questions to.

[00:27:49] Typecraft: that’s

[00:27:50] Robbie Wagner: yeah,

[00:27:50] Robbie Wagner: that’s

[00:27:51] Robbie Wagner: I think we should start a new survivor show and everyone just gets access to that and

[00:27:55] Ken: we’re done here. I’ll show it to you guys. It’s hilarious.

[00:27:57] Aaron: why, why

[00:27:58] Typecraft: things. did you make that?

[00:27:59] Aaron: Are

[00:27:59] Aaron: you ex. [00:28:00] Expecting to go onto a desert island.

[00:28:03] Ken: Oh, I’m just a lunatic.

[00:28:05] Ken: It’s, it’s really important. Like, like, like, you know, uh, sometimes you’ll sit there and you’ll think like,

[00:28:09] Ken: you know, what if there was an internet? What if it went down? I, I think what had happened was there was some kind of, like, somebody said something about some kinda like dollar collapse scenario or something like that.

[00:28:17] Ken: I remember reading something piece about like it happening, in like Eastern Europe or something. And they’re like, oh man, oh, it sucked, and all this shit happened. And they’re like, I was like, you know what? Like what, what would you even do? Right? Like if you, if you don’t have Google at, at arm’s reach, how do you, how do you plan against that?

[00:28:34] Ken: Because like right now, you know, we, we don’t sit here and store a lot of this knowledge, right? Because it’s too easy to just go out and get,

[00:28:42] Ken: so if you have that there, and it’s kind of like, like pages can get wet. thumb drives can malfunction,

[00:28:50] Typecraft: Tablets could run out of charge.

[00:28:52] Ken: not, with a solar panel on the

[00:28:54] Ken: pack, do,

[00:28:55] Ken: and a

[00:28:55] Ken: crank

[00:28:56] Typecraft: That’s now, that’s

[00:28:57] Aaron: Yeah,

[00:28:58] Ken: Dude, I have like a whole thing for this.[00:29:00]

[00:29:00] Typecraft: Yeah.

[00:29:01] Ken: I

[00:29:01] Ken: just feel like it would be a good thing to have.

[00:29:03] Ken: You know, you’re like, how do we make a tourniquet out of it, like a shoelace and a pencil? I know, but I’m just saying

[00:29:07] Robbie Wagner: yeah,

[00:29:08] Typecraft: it’s great.

[00:29:08] Ken: some question, I don’t know.

[00:29:10] Typecraft: I

[00:29:11] Typecraft: agree. My, my answer was gonna be a joke. Uh, just bring a phone so I could call the cops,

[00:29:14] Typecraft: but

[00:29:15] Aaron: Oh, that’s a

[00:29:15] Aaron: good idea. I’m actually gonna change my answer. I like

[00:29:18] Typecraft: yeah.

[00:29:18] Aaron: yeah.

[00:29:19] Aaron: stuck in The wilderness.

[00:29:20] Typecraft: Yeah. Hello? Yeah. Mom. Uh, mom. Yeah. It’s me.

[00:29:25] Typecraft: yeah, no, that the locally running LLM with the vector database is

[00:29:29] Typecraft: really

[00:29:30] Aaron: a little bit, that’s a little more big brain

[00:29:31] Aaron: than our phone

[00:29:32] Robbie Wagner: Yeah.

[00:29:32] Ken: I’ll show it to you guys after this. I, I can tap in for my phone.

[00:29:35] Robbie Wagner: Alright, awesome.

[00:29:37] Robbie Wagner: that’s

[00:29:37] Robbie Wagner: really

[00:29:37] Robbie Wagner: cool.

[00:29:37] Robbie Wagner: Okay, so we all have three plus kids. how do you balance family responsibilities with all the shit we’re doing?

[00:29:45] Typecraft: there’s a fun fact. All of us on stage, between the four of us, there are four sets of twins.

[00:29:51] Aaron: Four

[00:29:52] Aaron: sets of twins.

[00:29:54] Typecraft: set of

[00:29:54] Robbie Wagner: One of twins, Oh yeah. Yeah. Okay.

[00:29:55] Robbie Wagner: I was like, you don’t have

[00:29:56] Typecraft: two sets of twins.

[00:29:57] Robbie Wagner: that, yeah, because you

[00:29:58] Typecraft: Somebody’s an overachiever.

[00:29:59] Ken: [00:30:00] some

[00:30:00] Ken: twins right here for you, buddy.

[00:30:00] Aaron: of twins.

[00:30:02] Typecraft: I didn’t mean to leave you out.

[00:30:03] Robbie Wagner: Yeah.

[00:30:04] Ken: I got some twins right here.

[00:30:08] Typecraft: Oh yeah. I

[00:30:08] Ken: guess,

[00:30:08] Typecraft: yeah, I guess there’s like eight sets of twins

[00:30:10] Typecraft: then if you’re,

[00:30:10] Ken: I, I

[00:30:11] Aaron: let’s

[00:30:11] Aaron: keep it family

[00:30:11] Aaron: friendly

[00:30:12] Ken: individual children in a row.

[00:30:14] Typecraft: Hmm.

[00:30:16] Typecraft: was the question?

[00:30:16] Ken: How do,

[00:30:17] Ken: how do you, how do you manage it?

[00:30:18] Aaron: start.

[00:30:18] Aaron: Um, I have

[00:30:20] Aaron: four kids, so I have

[00:30:21] Ken: only a three,

[00:30:22] Aaron: two sets of twins. So we have two four year olds and two 18 month

[00:30:25] Aaron: olds. Um,

[00:30:27] Aaron: I have pretty strict rules for myself. , I am very, very willing to sacrifice things that I want. I am 0% willing to sacrifice things on behalf of my

[00:30:38] Aaron: children, so I, I don’t miss dinner.

[00:30:41] Aaron: I put the kids to bed. I put the big kids to bed every night. If that means I have to stay up late or I have to get up early, or I don’t get to play golf, which I don’t, or have frankly any hobbies at all, that’s fine. Those are, those are things I’m willing to sacrifice for me. I’m not willing to sacrifice my children’s childhood ‘cause I have dreams, [00:31:00] right?

[00:31:01] Aaron: And so if there is a sacrifice to be made, the question is. Is this pain gonna be born by me or is it gonna be born by my children?

[00:31:09] Aaron: Because it’s a no brainer.

[00:31:11] Aaron: And so I wake the big kids up every day, bring ‘em down, get ‘em set up for breakfast, and then I go to work. And then the time comes where I’m not done with work.

[00:31:20] Aaron: But that doesn’t matter ‘cause I don’t stop when I’m finished. I stop when it’s dinnertime, bedtime, and I come home. And so like. I’ve given up a lot of things. I don’t have hardly any hobbies, but I have dreams that I do want to see fulfilled, and so I’m working towards that, but not at the sake of my family.

[00:31:37] Robbie Wagner: Hmm, that’s fair. So PHP isn’t a hobby then.

[00:31:41] Robbie Wagner: a hobby.

[00:31:42] Robbie Wagner: PHP

[00:31:43] Aaron: a religion. It is a calling.

[00:31:44] Typecraft: is lo.

[00:31:45] Robbie Wagner: profession.

[00:31:46] Robbie Wagner: Okay.

[00:31:47] Typecraft: We got PHP fan here.

[00:31:51] Aaron: got one. That’s all I need. We’re a quorum.

[00:31:55] Typecraft: I agree with that 100%. I think it’s, it’s very important, and there’s two things to keep in mind [00:32:00] there. There’s, the selfless part of you, which wants to say, I want to give my kids the best possible life they can have the best foundation for their upbringing, and just, just give them everything that they could need as human beings so that they’re set up well later on in life, in their, in their teenage years, and so on and so forth.

[00:32:19] Typecraft: I think that’s really important to do that. , But e even if you think about this in a more selfish way, it’s like, I wanna do all these things now for my kids so that they’re set up really well, but it’s only gonna be for, for so long until like, they’re gonna be out of the house, they’re gonna go to college.

[00:32:35] Typecraft: You wanna enjoy that time with them while you have it. ‘cause it is going to be only so much time.

[00:32:43] Typecraft: And I’ve seen that now it’s, it feels like yesterday we had our twins. They’re six. They’re going into first grade.

[00:32:48] Robbie Wagner: They looking at colleges yet.

[00:32:50] Robbie Wagner: we do a few of them.

[00:32:50] Typecraft: to a

[00:32:51] Typecraft: few. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

[00:32:53] Robbie Wagner: Ken, you got thoughts?

[00:32:57] Ken: Yeah. I, [00:33:00] uh,

[00:33:00] Ken: so I really don’t. Move anywhere. I have spent 40 years in the same town. Me, my wife, our children, our parents, our brothers, our sisters, our grandparents all live in a five mile square radius. We all live there. so it would be wild to, to leave, to go workshop. So

[00:33:23] Ken: I

[00:33:24] Ken: think there’s been a lot of opportunity.

[00:33:26] Ken: that could have happened that I wasn’t willing to do. cause it would kind of mess that up like a New Jersey, dude. I walked in the street like sparrows put a coat on me. Old Sicilian women throw me a loaf of bread. I’m like, ah, they to you motherfucker. Kind of thing. So, and, and that’s, that’s really hard to give up.

[00:33:44] Ken: And then on top of that, right, I think that one of the most important things is being present.

[00:33:49] Typecraft: Mm-hmm.

[00:33:49] Ken: and you know what, it’s, it’s not just for their sake. It’s for my sake. have you ever seen that chart where it shows like time spent with children?

[00:33:55] Ken: You know what I’m talking about? The time spent with children over time. Sometimes you see some shit like [00:34:00] that, or you see the thing where it’s like the squares of all the weekends in your life,

[00:34:03] Ken: right? Oh

[00:34:03] Ken: and that is like a giant steel toed boot ass kick to really take stock. Right, so like

[00:34:11] Aaron: And for, for the audience, the chart is basically like by the time your kid leaves home at 18, you’ve spent 90% of your face

[00:34:16] Aaron: time with

[00:34:17] Ken: you ever will. So I am like steadfast in being a remote worker,

[00:34:25] Ken: even though there’s, there’s a, there’s opportunities right now. I’m not gonna do them. I am not leaving this, I’m not going working anywhere until. We get over that, that line there. So yeah, it’s, it’s great. Dude. I wake up, I like, I get my work, I get more work done than do you go to the office and people are sitting there doing God knows what,

[00:34:42] Ken: you know, I’m sitting there locked in.

[00:34:44] Ken: But at the same time, dude, I have breakfast with my kids. You know, they have like a problem. They run down. I’m like, what’s up man? What’s going on? Short stop.

[00:34:50] Ken: Right. You know, so, yeah. That, that’s it’s prioritization

[00:34:56] Ken: and, and Yeah.

[00:34:57] Ken: I get that. That’s personal. Some people wanna be the, [00:35:00] you know, do whatever they wanna

[00:35:01] Ken: do.

[00:35:02] Ken: Try hard on the,

[00:35:03] Robbie Wagner: yeah,

[00:35:04] Ken: not me, dude, I,

[00:35:05] Robbie Wagner: yeah,

[00:35:06] Robbie Wagner: yeah, yeah. The remote work thing is, is really beneficial because when I was working at Amazon, I had to commute like an hour each way, pretty much. I had maybe an hour or two of free time to begin with, so that’s gone yeah. So it’s, it is really helpful. Like now I can wake up.

[00:35:23] Robbie Wagner: And I can like, yeah, make breakfast or like hang out with the kids for a little bit before I start work, instead of just being like, I’m gonna go drive. ‘cause if I wait to drive, it’s gonna take two hours. Like, you can’t, you can’t wait to drive. You gotta leave the house at 6:00 AM if you’re gonna the

[00:35:35] Ken: And if your kids have like good sleep hygiene, there’s a chance you might not see them at night at all.

[00:35:39] Robbie Wagner: Mm-hmm.

[00:35:40] Ken: don’t. So you can go to bed nine 10 at night. So,

[00:35:43] Ken: yeah.

[00:35:43] Ken: But yeah, you know, I know, I know that like they, they, they see their parents on the weekends

[00:35:47] Aaron: Oh,

[00:35:48] Robbie Wagner: Yeah.

[00:35:49] Typecraft: I can imagine

[00:35:49] Ken: are just working. There

[00:35:50] Robbie Wagner: Yeah.

[00:35:50] Typecraft: so, there are pros and cons to working from home. Obvious pros, more time with the kids, more time with the

[00:35:55] Typecraft: family,

[00:35:56] Ken: able to fart whenever you want. Huh?

[00:35:57] Typecraft: huh?

[00:35:59] Typecraft: Being able to farm whenever you [00:36:00] want. Just, Just, ripping ‘em in the office. Yeah, just just ripping ‘em. But, um,

[00:36:04] Typecraft: there are cons to it as well. I know this wasn’t the original question, but it

[00:36:07] Typecraft: just, thought, is

[00:36:09] Typecraft: something that’s very present in my life and there’s, there’s a lot of cons.

[00:36:12] Typecraft: I think you have to be the right kind of person to be able to work from home effectively, because working from home, if you’re not a, routine driven person, I, I’ve found out about myself now that I’m 40 young and, yeah. Found out about myself finally that I don’t think I’m very good with routines. And so for me, I tend to slip into very bad habits when it comes from working from home.

[00:36:38] Typecraft: it’s nothing crazy, but the habits really revolve around how do I manage my time effectively when it comes to actually working, not with being with the family, but like actually sitting down and being like, okay, now it’s work time. Like, it’s too easy to be distracted sometimes when you’re just by yourself.

[00:36:52] Typecraft: So I wonder,

[00:36:53] Ken: do you have a dedicated space?

[00:36:54] Typecraft: I do, I have a little office.

[00:36:57] Typecraft: It’s just, um, it’s in the house, you know? So [00:37:00] it’s like, it’s part of a,

[00:37:01] Robbie Wagner: you gotta get that apartment.

[00:37:03] Aaron: So

[00:37:04] Typecraft: I’ve thought about that

[00:37:05] Robbie Wagner: actually.

[00:37:05] Typecraft: That’s, that’s a

[00:37:06] Aaron: I have found,

[00:37:07] Aaron: no matter how big or small, the air gap is helpful. I used to have a shed in my backyard that I turned into an office and just the act of like walking across the yard to go to work. Then walking across the yard to come home was very helpful. Now with the, you know, two sets of twins at home, I’m not, I can’t make videos at home.

[00:37:29] Aaron: And so I have an office just down the road, which is actually an apartment that I turned into a YouTube studio, and it’s, it takes me two minutes, three minutes to get to work. and it’s incredibly helpful for kicking you into the like, work mode. Because when you walk into your home office and your socks and basketball shorts and you’re like, alright, I guess I’ll work now, but I was just like hanging out outside it.

[00:37:53] Aaron: It just feels different.

[00:37:54] Robbie Wagner: mm-hmm. the, air gap

[00:37:55] Aaron: to me is very helpful.

[00:37:57] Typecraft: I

[00:37:57] Typecraft: think that’s a really good word. Air gap. That’s, [00:38:00] that’s very interesting. I like that.

[00:38:01] Ken: It takes a degree of discipline. yes. I lock in, dude, I’m down there at 6:00 AM to 6:00 PM locked in.

[00:38:09] Typecraft: I think that’s where my problem is. I don’t get locked in. Well, I, I do, but like, it takes me a long time to, to get there. And I think if there’s this weird kind of blurring of that line, kinda like where you’re getting at between work and home. Like, I’ll drop the kids off at, uh, school, you know, make them breakfast, get them ready, drop ‘em off.

[00:38:25] Typecraft: I come home and you think that that line is pretty straightforward, but then it’s like, it isn’t, it kind of gets blurred.

[00:38:31] Aaron: toss some

[00:38:32] Robbie Wagner: stuff in the

[00:38:32] Aaron: laundry.

[00:38:33] Typecraft: Yeah, exactly.

[00:38:34] Aaron: toys.

[00:38:35] Typecraft: Look outside. All the grass is getting a little tall. Gotta mow that. Think about

[00:38:38] Aaron: That’s how they get you.

[00:38:39] Typecraft: Yep.

[00:38:40] Robbie Wagner: each.

[00:38:40] Typecraft: It’s tough. But yeah, I

[00:38:41] Robbie Wagner: that’s, yeah. You gotta get that robot mower.

[00:38:44] Typecraft: I gotta buy an apartment.

[00:38:45] Robbie Wagner: gotta get,

[00:38:45] Robbie Wagner: yeah.

[00:38:46] Aaron: gotta do.

[00:38:46] Typecraft: Mm-hmm.

[00:38:48] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. Alright.

[00:38:49] Robbie Wagner: So let’s think to a theoretical future. Big Sky devcon 2030. What? Yes. What? technology are we arguing about [00:39:00] That doesn’t exist yet?

[00:39:01] Aaron: That doesn’t exist yet. I was gonna say, we’d still be arguing about React, but that

[00:39:05] Aaron: doesn’t

[00:39:06] Aaron: exist

[00:39:06] Robbie Wagner: be dead by then.

[00:39:07] Robbie Wagner: You heard it here first.

[00:39:08] Aaron: I think directionally it’ll be something that is like just in time AI interfaces or something people are talking about, we won’t need UI anymore. The AI will build your UI on the

[00:39:19] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. Bespoke to your preferences. Yeah. idea I

[00:39:24] Aaron: it will come to fruition and I will still think it’s a terrible idea and we can argue about it then.

[00:39:28] Robbie Wagner: Well, if they have a setting that you can put it all into, like I want it to look like 2004 flash websites, then I’m here for

[00:39:35] Aaron: Yeah.

[00:39:35] Aaron: I mean,

[00:39:36] Aaron: honestly, we’ll

[00:39:37] Aaron: we’ll, we’ll probably yearn for 2025 Shad

[00:39:40] Robbie Wagner: End.

[00:39:40] Aaron: at that point.

[00:39:41] Ken: What What? was the date range you put on this?

[00:39:43] Typecraft: 2030.

[00:39:44] Ken: I dunno. I don’t know if it’s enough time.

[00:39:47] Typecraft: I can

[00:39:48] Robbie Wagner: imagine talk

[00:39:49] Typecraft: title right now for 2030. JavaScript in your neural link, good or bad?

[00:39:53] Aaron: Hmm.

[00:39:54] Ken: I, I, I don’t think you’re wrong. I think that, well, you, you kind of have a, a lot of things taking place at once, right? [00:40:00] But one is like the degradation of the conventional internet, right? It’s being just absolutely slammed at bots, slop content, you know, it’s attacked from all sides. And then you look at other non-tech factors that are going on in the world.

[00:40:12] Ken: It is probably get pretty weird. I

[00:40:14] Ken: think that,

[00:40:15] Aaron: gonna get weird.

[00:40:15] Robbie Wagner: Yeah.

[00:40:16] Ken: I think, I think, you’re

[00:40:16] Ken: gonna not have, I mean like, you know, do you really need UIs? Right? Like, if you have that on demand stuff, and like if you’re doing that, like do you really need a phone? Right? Like, you’re gonna do this biological, like integration.

[00:40:30] Robbie Wagner: I would love to not have a phone

[00:40:32] Ken: but like, imagine you’re sitting there like on your eyeball, like watching some like.

[00:40:36] Typecraft: Mm-hmm.

[00:40:37] Ken: Content, and I’m not gonna say on stream and like no one knows. It’s just like right on the side of your eye, right. That kind of thing.

[00:40:42] Ken: You’re like,

[00:40:42] Aaron: doing content in our eyeballs, I’m going to get lost in the forest by myself.

[00:40:47] Typecraft: Yeah.

[00:40:47] Ken: I’m sitting here building seven nine gigabytes survival. PDF local L

[00:40:52] Aaron: I, I’m

[00:40:52] Typecraft: Hell yeah. That’s good.

[00:40:54] Typecraft: full circle.

[00:40:55] Ken: because this, I think it’s gonna get weird. I think it’s gonna get real weird.

[00:40:58] Aaron: It is.

[00:40:58] Typecraft: I don’t think it is. I [00:41:00] feel like all of these hyped up. I, I, I think AI is a real tool that’ll be with us for a really long

[00:41:06] Typecraft: time, and it’s a really good tool to know how to use well. But a lot of these things get really hyped to the extent that it’s almost comical and the reality lies somewhere well below the ideal vision of the thing, according to whoever’s typing it.

[00:41:23] Robbie Wagner: yeah. I don’t

[00:41:23] Typecraft: think we’re ever gonna get to the point where it’s like, we don’t need UIs or whatever.

[00:41:27] Aaron: I

[00:41:27] Aaron: hope not.

[00:41:28] Typecraft: don’t see that.

[00:41:29] Ken: I do, I do. And if you look at China, they already have. Uh, if you look at like a WeChat style experience, right? Like, like there’s no need for a website. All business is done on WeChat, and it’s all widget based, right? So like, if you have a future where, you know, you can do whatever you want and you get any data you want and just integrate it on the fly, like, why would you make a website?

[00:41:51] Ken: what in your feed, just like dynamically generate the widgetry to act

[00:41:55] Ken: upon

[00:41:56] Robbie Wagner: You need, a lot of trust though, like is the stuff that’s being [00:42:00] generated doing what I want?

[00:42:01] Robbie Wagner: I like to see a UI because I can visually it, it holds my hand and it’s like, you did this check mark

[00:42:07] Robbie Wagner: and like thes Yeah. what you can

[00:42:10] Robbie Wagner: so I like to look at it and know that I was in control and I clicked some things and something happened, but I do think that that will go away somewhat.

[00:42:18] Robbie Wagner: most things, you’ll just trust. It works. But then what happens when we’ve trusted, everything works for a decade and the AI is built upon itself and the it collapses.

[00:42:27] Aaron: end

[00:42:28] Ken: say that for almost any technology we have today.

[00:42:31] Ken: true.

[00:42:31] Ken: Like do you, how many people you know that know how to make live from wood ash?

[00:42:34] Ken: You know what I mean? Like, like, like it’s just lost technology outside of like manufacturing.

[00:42:40] Ken: Right? Which is not even done here any longer. Yeah. It’s gonna get super duper weird.

[00:42:44] Robbie Wagner: Yeah.

[00:42:45] Typecraft: There’s gonna be, there’s gonna be a a T app. Version two,

[00:42:49] Robbie Wagner: like

[00:42:49] Robbie Wagner: we trusted

[00:42:50] Typecraft: AI to do the thing we wanted. Now, oops. Everyone’s addresses are leaked with their pictures like that. That’s what’s gonna

[00:42:55] Robbie Wagner: Yeah.

[00:42:55] Ken: I think what’s gonna happen is that there’s something that we don’t, that we can’t necessarily [00:43:00] see right now.

[00:43:00] Ken: If

[00:43:01] Ken: we were to go back to 1997, right? Like, like there was no such thing as an iPhone or an app.

[00:43:09] Ken: It just didn’t exist. Right? It’s an entire new category, right? Like there was a period of time when dudes used to walk around in jeans with a wallet and some cigarettes and some truck keys and that was

[00:43:20] Ken: it,

[00:43:21] Aaron: And they were free.

[00:43:21] Robbie Wagner: yeah.

[00:43:22] Ken: man. Yeah,

[00:43:24] Ken: But like there are things that now are requirements that were not requirements prior, like we didn’t know, outta nowhere, like this phone became a thing.

[00:43:33] Ken: And I

[00:43:33] Ken: think

[00:43:33] Ken: that we’re probably on the cusp of the next one of those. Where, whatever it’s gonna be, right? It’s not gonna be some evolution of some category or product that exists right now.

[00:43:44] Ken: It’s gonna be a new thing.

[00:43:45] Ken: It’s gonna be weird as hell. It’s probably gonna be sick and I don’t know what it’s gonna be, but whatever it is, it’s gonna probably gonna be Sick

[00:43:51] Typecraft: Yeah.

[00:43:51] Ken: enough to not be wary of it. But everything’s gonna get really weird. like

[00:43:53] Typecraft: It’ll probably be awesome.

[00:43:54] Ken: and shit got really weird and it’s like, we’re like, what is it doing to the kids?

[00:43:58] Ken: Like whatever this next thing [00:44:00] is.

[00:44:00] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, we’re all mush.

[00:44:02] Typecraft: do you guys remember printing out MapQuest

[00:44:04] Robbie Wagner: Hell yeah.

[00:44:05] Robbie Wagner: you

[00:44:06] Robbie Wagner: and then you would miss the

[00:44:07] Robbie Wagner: turn the

[00:44:08] Ken: off the edge?

[00:44:09] Aaron: Yep.

[00:44:09] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. Yeah. I remember printing out MapQuest directions and I missed the turn on the interstate and was

[00:44:16] Robbie Wagner: like, I’m just gonna go straight. And it actually worked out because MapQuest was wrong.

[00:44:22] Robbie Wagner: And so like. I was touring with my band and like the, the other car went the other way. Mm-hmm. And like followed the directions and they got stuck and had to stay in a hotel and we went home.

[00:44:32] Typecraft: So,

[00:44:32] Robbie Wagner: like, sometimes it worked out. But yeah, it was, it was crazy. Like you wanted to get internet on your phone. You had to like, be like, yeah, let me go into the like Verizon internet app and be like,

[00:44:44] Typecraft: Yeah. But to your point, like that’s, you wouldn’t have imagined the reliance on. Apple Maps or Google Maps, whatever the navigation system is on your phone. Back in the nineties, you wouldn’t even be able to comprehend that.

[00:44:56] Ken: it wasn’t even a thing, it wasn’t even a palpable thing that is, even [00:45:00] these words aren’t in the Bible, you know? like,

[00:45:03] Ken: like, what is this? You know? It’s, it’s, it’s a, it’s a completely new thing, you know? It’s like when somebody says age agentic, that’s not a fucking word. It’s that kind of thing.

[00:45:11] Ken: Right. I think we’re definitely like on like the, the technology cycle cusp of something that’s completely different like that, and it’s probably biologically integrated. At very least, like VR

[00:45:21] Ken: ish, a arish.

[00:45:23] Ken: You guys, you guys fuck with vr?

[00:45:24] Ken: It’s really fun. You fuck around with vr,

[00:45:27] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, some

[00:45:28] Ken: like pass through on like Quest three is a lot of fun.

[00:45:30] Ken: What I’ll do is I’ll do like Rept while I’m on the toilet and it’s really fun because you could just use your hands. You don’t even need controllers anymore. So let’s be sitting there with this, this thing on. Dude, look like if you had like the third party view, it is. It’s the craziest thing

[00:45:41] Ken: you’ve

[00:45:42] Ken: ever seen in

[00:45:42] Ken: your the wall

[00:45:43] Ken: Dude, it’s bananas. Well, like where you’re standing, right? Like you just take this like rept window, you’re like, you know,

[00:45:49] Ken: and you’re sitting there and you turn on voice dictation.

[00:45:52] Robbie Wagner: Yeah.

[00:45:52] Ken: make me

[00:45:53] Ken: this

[00:45:53] Ken: thing.

[00:45:53] Robbie Wagner: thought VR was gonna take off more than it

[00:45:55] Robbie Wagner: did,

[00:45:55] Robbie Wagner: but

[00:45:56] Ken: should. ‘cause I love it and I still use it all the time. I, I think it’s great.

[00:45:59] Robbie Wagner: All right. [00:46:00] So one final question. I know we’re kind of at time. , What’s one piece of advice you wish someone had given you that you’d like to pass on? We’ll just go across the line.

[00:46:09] Aaron: I would say. Be less afraid of failing and dream a little bit bigger. You must dream a little bit bigger, darling. I think there’s this notion that like, failure is permanent or like embarrassment is forever. And if you can get over the idea of embarrassment, mattering at all, you basically are free.

[00:46:28] Aaron: You have a

[00:46:28] Aaron: superpower. And so you look at like the people that we admire. you know, whether that’s Adam Wathan or DHH or Taylor Otwell or whatever. They didn’t ask for permission. Like Adam is a great Adam. Wathan Tailwind is a great example. ‘cause he like was building something fundamentally different on stream.

[00:46:46] Aaron: And the genesis of Tailwind came from those streams of him building something different. And people were like, no, no, no. Cool. Whatever. I want that. What is

[00:46:55] Aaron: that? And just the willingness to put yourself out there and [00:47:00] risk embarrassment is I think the way that you get through to the other side of like getting the things that you want.

[00:47:07] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. And

[00:47:08] Aaron: think if I could tell myself my younger self something, it would be like, yeah, you’re gonna be embarrassed, but everything you want is on the other side of

[00:47:16] Aaron: embarrassment.

[00:47:17] Robbie Wagner: The safe choice is safe.

[00:47:18] Aaron: Yes.

[00:47:18] Robbie Wagner: can do the safe choice. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:47:20] Typecraft: I would just say on a more professional level, like just put stuff out there. Just get going on whatever idea you have in your head. Don’t think about it too much. When you have the idea, just try. Just go for that’s,

[00:47:36] Aaron: Agreed.

[00:47:36] Robbie Wagner: All right, Ken.

[00:47:38] Ken: a, a long time ago, like, I dunno, like 15 maybe. I dunno about 20, certainly the better part of 15 years ago, I’m working and this guy gives me, uh, this book and it was called The Go-Giver, right? And you know, I, I read it a couple times. It kind of boils down to that, the more you give out, like professionally or interpersonally or [00:48:00] whatever, the, the more that kind of just like ally comes back to you,

[00:48:03] Typecraft: I love.

[00:48:04] Ken: right?

[00:48:05] Ken: So. tried to use it as a, kind of like a general principle, right? Just fucking hook people up, And it’s worked out really well so far. Like it’s really worked out. So, yeah, be, be generous with your time, help people, and in any way if was, you know, not with the explicit intention of coming back to you any X fold,

[00:48:23] Robbie Wagner: Right.

[00:48:23] Ken: but, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s a pretty tight way to operate in general.

[00:48:26] Robbie Wagner: Cool.

[00:48:27] Aaron: These are the, the exact same answer. By

[00:48:29] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:48:30] Aaron: All three of those answers are fundamentally the same thing.

[00:48:33] Robbie Wagner: Yeah.

[00:48:34] Aaron: Put

[00:48:34] Aaron: stuff out there, help other people. Don’t be afraid of putting stuff out there and looking like an idiot. Like those

[00:48:39] Ken: Yeah.

[00:48:39] Aaron: that is what these old people on stage wish they would’ve known earlier.

[00:48:44] Aaron: Yes,

[00:48:44] Robbie Wagner: Yeah.

[00:48:45] Ken: the day you’re, you’re, you’re a bit timid back in the day.

[00:48:47] Ken: Right. You’re like sitting there like fucking like, uh.

[00:48:49] Typecraft: You’re worried about yourself. Your ego’s a little

[00:48:51] Typecraft: bit bigger. You’re like. Exactly.

[00:48:54] Typecraft: Exactly.

[00:48:54] Ken: great now because they know that I’m stupid.

[00:48:57] Aaron: exactly. You have to get over

[00:48:59] Aaron: that

[00:48:59] Aaron: chasm. [00:49:00] Yes.

[00:49:01] Typecraft: It’s freeing when everyone knows. Yeah.

[00:49:03] Ken: It really

[00:49:03] Aaron: Yep.

[00:49:03] Ken: Yeah.

[00:49:04] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. Cool. Alright, well thanks everyone for being on.

[00:49:07] Robbie Wagner: Thanks everyone out there for listening. If you are not already subscribed, go to whatever you listen to podcasts on, subscribe there, leave us some reviews. We appreciate it. Everyone listening on the stream, do the same thing and we will catch you all next time.

[00:49:21] Outro: You’ve been watching Whiskey Web and Whatnot. Recorded in front of a live studio audience. What the fuck are you talking about, Chuck? Enjoyed the show? Subscribe. You know, people don’t pay attention to these, right? Head to whiskey.fund for merchant to join our Discord server. I’m serious, it’s like 2% of people who actually click these links. And don’t forget to leave us a five star review and tell your friends about the show. All right, dude, I’m outta here. Still got it.