RobbieTheWagner 
Adam Argyle ouch Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of whiskey web and whatnot. We're totally shaking things up for you today. We've got not an American whiskey, not a rye whiskey, but a Japanese whiskey, and we have video and we have a guest, which is crazy. This is totally outside of our spectrum of normal things. Yeah, we have Chris Garrett with us today from the UK and we're going to try this Japanese whiskey that he somewhat kind of recommended. I guess not the specific one, but his idea to to pick a Japanese Japanese. Yeah. Hey, I've not had a Japanese whiskey yet, so I definitely wanted to try one. Sounded great.
Yes, same. Are you a scotch fan? Generally, yes. Yeah, if I had to pick a whiskey to drink straight, absolutely scotch. First one I had was Lafroyg, and I was hooked after that. Also, I just love the whole idea they were doing that promotion where they give you like a square foot of land on their distillery. You own it. I don't know how legal it is, but if you go to Lafroyg in Scotland, they'll give you rent in the form of a shot of whiskey every year. And they'll take you to your square foot of land, your exact one. That's yours. Wow. That seems pretty cool. Yeah, that is cool. I think I still have a huge country. So you wonder if they duplicated those efforts at any point, and it's like two people happen to show up to see their same plot of land, and they're like, oh, we mean right here next to each other.
Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised, but yeah, should we crack it open? Yeah, yeah. So yeah, it comes in a box, too. It's fancy. Not a wooden box. Very fancy box. So check, look it up before this. This is 100% melted barley, which is pretty normal for a Scottish style whiskey. Usually use melted barley or various kinds of malts. Sometimes you get the fancy ones, which are single malt. This one is a malt blend. I know that. And what makes this one different? And I didn't realize it until actually today is it's finished in cedar casks. Yeah, I saw that. There's like a, I mean, I don't want to get this wrong.
There's protectors of trines in Japan with the produce this alcohol and like have the cedar trees and stuff, I guess. I don't know. It sounds cool. Yeah, I don't know. I get all most whiskey is aged in oak. So sometimes used oak, sometimes new oak bourbon has to be new charred American oak. Just for fun, maybe you didn't realize this Robbie, but I'm a little obsessive about making sure I get the measurement correct for my glass. So you do that. Yes, I do that. I do it. Something I picked up from the Jack Rose and DC when I lived there. Chris, you're mentioning something around now. I'm not going to let you taste it yet.
You're mentioning some things around how you have it at first. And my opinions on that are there was an old man when I was doing a tour of Buffalo Trace or something I think it was and was just talking about whiskey in general is just his advice is the best one is the one you like. And I think that kind of transcends across the way you like it as well. So if you like it on ice, just have it on ice who cares? Cheers. That is nice. That's a nice whiskey. Yeah, it's pretty smooth. Yeah, it's pretty smooth. Yeah, it's pretty smooth. Got the smoke, but not, not heavy, not like low you way kind of. Yeah, I mean, it's your something has like a lot of smoke up in there like liquid smoke.
I won't get to be a little much for me. My cousin who I mentioned earlier, he is super into whiskies. He gave me one that was like one of the most piti whiskies of all time or something. Yeah, I'm just drinking straight like with smoke. Yeah, I think I coughed. Yeah, as far as Scotch style whiskies go, this is pretty smooth and not too. I was telling Chuck in a previous episode that I think Scotch is kind of smell like a sharpie sometimes. You don't get quite as much of that with this. It's like it's more rounded and yeah, not quite as piti I guess is maybe the sharpie smell. I don't know. Yeah, I mean, I feel like the Japanese ones tend to have more smoothness and not like punch you in the throat with some of the flavors, the peeniness of the smokiness or whatever.
It's kind of nice about those. Yeah, I definitely get the feel of like the feel of a different wood here compared to normal like the cedar kind of comes out for me. I have no idea if it's a new or used cedar barrel though. What else would you have used it for? Do people age things in cedar often? Not that I know, typically it's oak barrels and they're either new or used. Yeah, or like for wine and stuff, I think probably just wine, not whiskey. So you do French versus American for like the different amounts of oak and different little bit of flavors there. Yeah, I haven't heard of cedar before.
Here we go. It has to do with that whole Japanese crowd of protection of something. I don't know. I didn't listen to all of that. I don't know. I thought you had said it was something about like cedar being maybe I just read into that. I think it is worth paying attention to what I was saying. It's possible. The back of the box says it's our working relationship. The back of the box says something about it. It's from a shrine and like one of the oldest shrines in Japan. There's a protector of alcohol producing families located in the ancient capital of Nara, amid a dense forest of Yoshino Sugi, a Japanese cedar.
There's like a shrine and a cedar forest that they're making this in which sounds pretty cool. The cool jolly. Now I want to visit this distillery. I really want to just visit Japan in general. That's one of our big vacation. We want to go for like three weeks and just see as much of the country as we can. I would like I consider most vacations or travels to be about eating my way around the country. I'm really into ramen. I want to go to Tokyo because it's like weird cool. All that stuff going on there. You go out into the countryside and you get these beautiful excursions. I used to work for National Geographic and I would look at some of their travel excursions.
Even they're pretty expensive but even if I wasn't going to take it, I really like the routes that they plot out and sometimes they're like photography based ones too. That's kind of what they say. You end up in and out of Tokyo but then you take the train all around and yeah, it seems I would love to do the same thing. Yeah, there's actually this, it's like an ancient pilgrimage trail. It's outside of Kyoto, I think. So we were thinking about doing that and that's like a three day thing. Definitely want to check out some other stuff in the countryside in general too. But we'll see. It's definitely a lazily still.
Our next trip is going to be Hawaii and that's going to be nice. It's a little slight, it's a different pace, different setup. I've been to Maui, I love it. You've been most places though, to be fair. I haven't been to Japan and I haven't been to South Africa. Those are some areas that we had talked about this. Not me and you, my wife and I have discussed as the next big trips. Sorry, you get to go too. We'll see what we can work out, get a bulk deal. We should circle back to this brown stuff we're having. Yeah, so we do a tentacle rating system, Chris. So it's between one to eight tentacles. So I would give this a seven, I think.
I think it's pretty good. I typically am not a huge scotch fan. And so for me, this is, I mean, I know it's not a scotch necessarily, but scotch style kind of. So for me, this is really good, really balanced. Yeah, interested to hear what you guys think. I would give it a seven. I think I'm really enjoying it, but I also just haven't had that many whiskeys. So I don't know if I could give it a full eight. Maybe I would circle back and realize, oh, yeah, that's an amazing whisky. I love it. But for now, seven, really good. Would keep drinking it. Would, would drink. There aren't a lot of those where I say would not drink, but.
Yeah. That's how whiskeys, which are melted whiskeys. There's, there's your blanket that you could put things in, right? Their mash bill is malt. And, and that's the same with scotch and, and with Japanese whiskeys. So with this particular one, yeah, I get, I do like how it's mellow. The flavors are a little bit different with the cedar. Like in the mid, like mid taste, like the mid palette. For me, I start to get like a little bit of a, I don't know, a smell and taste of like banana leaf. I don't know if you've had a lot of like Southeast Asian foods, but sometimes there's like, I've never had a banana leaf thing of me.
Yeah, well, I don't think you eat the actual leaf. You get, you know, or it's usually like wrapped in steam. They're cooked within banana leaves. So you get like some of the essence of it. I don't know. I'm catching that in the middle. I'd say I have had quite a few Japanese whiskeys. Although, since it's very popular now, there are a whole bunch of new ones. So lots that I haven't had, but I've had like the big names, like Nika, a few of their releases all the way up to the 17. I've had the Yamazaki, both the 12 and the 18 and the 18 at one point, was like the world's number one whiskey. Pretty good stuff.
I've had some Hibiki, which tends to be a little high smoked peat kind of like this. So I would give this a six. I think it's pretty good. I think the cedar is different, but a little weird for me. And maybe I'm just not used to it. And so, so I get a six. And that's not a bad thing. I would definitely would drink again, as long as Robbie buys it. Yeah, I mean, that's better than last week's where you were like mid podcast. I'm going to switch whiskeys because I do not like this one. Yeah. And that one was gifted. So you're welcome. Nice. Yeah, I'm going back and forth between ice and no ice. I don't have a refined enough palette to tell you the difference.
But I kind of like you, Chris. I like ice. I can't tell you why I just do. I know it tastes better cold. I kind of want to try whiskey stones at some point to see if that, if I like that more. But I definitely like it cold in general. There's a smidge of science to adding water because water as oxygen dilutes its own kind of stuff. Yeah. So when you get real whiskey geek, you can do it in various ways. When I was trying new things, a lot of times I would have it as is just as the distiller intended. And I have a little dropper bottle of some distilled water. And then you could add like two or three drops just to give it that similar effect
without actually over diluting it or changing the temperature and watering it down over time. So if you're just cold, yeah, I would recommend the whiskey stones. I mean, it's great for that. You can even try kind of chilling your glass beforehand. So I actually did that as well. I really like it cold. You really like it cold. Yes. And that's another reason why sometimes people put a splash of soda into their whiskey just to give it some of that refreshing effervescence. I don't know. For me, scotches tend to be lower proof anyway. So I don't tend to do that very often. But I like a higher proof whiskey.
I like something around 110. You wanted to punch you in the mouth? Yeah. I need a little bit of that. I mean, as some folks know, I'm from Kentucky. And you know, a punch in the mouth is like a Kentucky hug. The burn you get from some whiskeys. That's actually what we call it the Kentucky hug. Learn something new today. Well, it's only grown up in Kentucky. Well, so I was in northern Kentucky. So I was actually very urban right across from Cincinnati. So, you know, skateboard kid hopping on buses. I rode trains to... I used to hop trains down to middle school or grade school. Things like that.
You know, an urban kid getting in trouble. Pretty standard. America. I just... I guess. I just keep learning about you. Did not know you skateboarded. Yeah. I was big into it and told us about 13. So yeah, they go do like four years or so. Skated up in Cincinnati. I can't remember the pros I met, but I did meet some pros at the time and everything too. Do you like do tricks and stuff? Yeah. Yeah. I could do kick flips and slide down the guard rails and all that stuff. It was pretty decent for a while. I could almost do an ollie. That's just about as good, right? I rode half pipes and some other stuff too.
So yeah, decent, especially given like I started. I think I started when I was like eight or nine, though, too. Oh, wow. Yeah. I tried to skateboard in Longboard. I was born with like three left feet. I just have no body coordination at all whatsoever. So almost died a few times. That's about it. Well, I changed schools and the pretty girls like the soccer player. So that was my new thing. Nice. So Chris, what's going on in the Ember world right now? What's the new hotness coming out? Well, you know, Ember Conf is coming up. So that's a lot of preparation time going into that. I'm doing two talks.
And yes, two talks. And it is going to be. Well, one of them is a lightning talk. But yeah, this year was definitely pretty rough. And they're going to be a little bit more rushed than my previous talks, I think. Because I was working literally until like last week, or maybe the week before I don't remember. But to get one of the features that I'm talking about out, and that's another big thing that's happening, template imports. So that's really going to completely, I mean, I don't think it's going to completely change the way you write Ember apps, but it's going to be a pretty significant shift.
I think it makes it much clearer where things are coming from. And it also just gives you so many more capabilities. So just for context, template imports, like the whole idea, today in Ember apps, you use a component, you use a helper. And Ember kind of just figures out where it's coming from, based on like file system, heuristics, right? App slash components, helpers are in app slash helpers. And that actually adds like a ton of complexity to Ember. It adds a ton of complexity to your mental models as a developer. And especially adds a lot of complexity to like the build system, right? Like how add-ons do that?
Like the whole app merging process is kind of really difficult to understand, right? So the idea was that like originally the idea was we would have like module unification or whatever. And you would, you know, refer to components by like a fully qualified name. So you'd be like, my add-on, I think it was like at my add-on at, or maybe it was colon colon, I don't remember. But my add-on, my component name, and so on. But that fell through for a number of reasons, complexity being one of them. People actually used it early on. It turned out that it was actually harder to understand, especially stuff around like local lookup,
which I don't even want to get into if we want to talk about local lookup we can. But it was just super complicated. So we step back and we were looking at like what other ecosystems were doing with imports. And we really realized like it just makes a lot more sense to use explicit imports. It works better with tooling, other frameworks were doing it, multiple other frameworks. And it was very successful. I think we, we in Angular are like the only ones. And maybe I guess web component-based frameworks, right, that like register their web components in the global custom elements namespace. So where are the only ones like views, felt, react, like a ton of other smaller ones.
They all do like imports. So, and then it would also just integrate better with bundling and integrate better with other tooling editor support. It would make typescript a lot easier to support. That's something else that's coming up type Denver team has been working on type templates. And I think they're getting pretty close to having something like that you can actually kick the tires on. What's that? Excuse me. But yeah, so I spent basically the last six months implementing and building strict mode, which is how you kind of start using template imports. The idea with strict mode is it's like JavaScript strict mode, but with templates.
So you enable strict mode in a template and certain things are no longer allowed. So that includes like using partials, for instance. Also this fallback, you know how you can just refer to a property without using this and it kind of adds the this for you. That's no longer a lot because that's been deprecated for a long time. And then resolution is the other thing and that's resolving based on file name and all that. So kind of at the same time that implies you have to have some other way to provide the components and helpers in scope in the template. And that's what is template imports. So it's kind of like a sub part of strict mode like strict modes larger than in the Venn diagram.
It encapsulates template imports, but template imports is probably the part that will most people will really see as like the biggest impact. So does that give us tree shaking for templates then? Yeah, it should like in theory, the work that Ed is doing Ed Faulkner is doing in embroider will also do that to some extent. His work is basically like adding those import statements automatically based on like using just build tooling and then allowing the build the like webpack or snowpack or whatever to import statements that were automatically generated. So I wouldn't say that it's entirely blocked on that, but it will make that much more of a natural process, right?
Like you'll you'll be able to just yeah import values and it'll just be able to follow them without having to have that automatic generation step. Gotcha. So since you mentioned it, are there plans for like snowpack or I don't know. There's a ton of people putting out tons of stuff like that like invite for view and so there's like WMR like warm module replacement thing from pre-act or whatever. I don't know a bunch of them I've been hearing about. So yeah, how does that work with them? Well, the whole idea with embroider is that in theory we can switch out the underlying implementation. So ideally you don't really have to worry about what we're using at a given moment and in the future we could switch to another bundler.
And there's also some other benefits you get with this like for instance we're going to automatically bundle based on routes. So you don't have to figure out like I have to use like dynamic import and tell webpack exactly how to bundle this route separately from that one and oops I accidentally imported something synchronously that I thought was going to be in the other bundle and now everything's bundled together again like all that complexity is going to be handled for you idiomatically conventionally. But yeah, so when we get started it's just going to be webpack and that's because webpack's you know the dominant kind of player in the ecosystem at the moment.
But I think like there's nothing about the architecture that ties us specifically to a webpack and the only thing that will is like if people start using custom webpack plugins and whatnot. And that only ties us in the sense that those people will probably have to you know have an extra upgrade step and we'll have to have like an AB kind of like a glimmer components kind of world where we support both for a while right. So I definitely want to make sure that it's a possible thing in the future. Gotcha yeah it's it's kind of interesting because I think I've talked to you a little bit about it in the past but I've been using knocks a little bit and they kind of have some of the magic import stuff as well like you know you put stuff in pages and it's automatically a route and then like
but they had component imports you had to import everything and they've just gone the other way made a thing where you can say components true and it auto imports all your components. Yeah so I don't know if that breaks their tree shaking or like how that works behind the scenes but it's interesting because they follow a lot of the next JS patterns and I'm not sure if that's a part of the next JS or not but the same like automatic routing from your pages structure. I mean that's the same setup that next has in play and their you know their setup is essentially compile out to where every page can be a serverless function too.
So that you know that yeah their architecture is intended for that for a particular output that you know can make these functions per route. Yeah I can understand also why view based framework might want to prioritize that because they have to like re export their imports or at least the last time I checked they had to do that and that I can imagine is just annoying bit of boilerplate in a smaller app you know you don't really especially if you don't have like tooling that does it for you type of thing. I don't know I personally definitely think that after using them for a while especially in larger apps being able to just go to definition and stuff like that is invaluable.
And yeah we can do that with like language server and stuff like that but I really like the the experience so far with the template import so we'll see. Yeah I mean I think a lot of the stuff that you and everybody have been working on over the past couple of years has really kind of standardized ember a little more towards what kind of other frameworks have been doing so I think. You know it's nice from a just general JavaScript perspective like as a more junior developer for learning things you can see like okay I'm going to import things in all these different frameworks I'm going to use them kind of the same way the syntax is a little different and you know you're not like oh I'm trying to learn ember there's no imports or anything there everything's just there and like I have to know where to put it in folders and like you know that's that makes it just so much easier I feel like for the learning curve.
Totally and then I think the like longer term we want to make that story even better by really like I refer to it like rebasing ember on top of glimmer JS currently ember and glimmer JS both build on top of glimmer VM but a little bit separately. And at some point we want to kind of merge the two so that ember is using the glimmer JS API is on top of glimmer VM to render everything and glimmer JS basically gives you an API like render component you just you tell it here's a here's my component that's my root component here's the element I want to render it into. And go nuts and here's the arguments I want to pass to it and so it's just like you know rendering a react component or a view component and I think that that will be really good for people who are familiar with those frameworks and who just want to like kind of get their feet wet with ember without you know having to learn the whole framework so to speak.
Yeah yeah I think Robbie and I have actually spoken about it in a past podcast as that was sort of the differentiator early on is that people could dive in to react and have you know a win in 10 15 minutes and like oh look at this cool thing that's dynamic that I just made. And then of course when they need to get into the real world and do a lot a whole lot more things like they don't they don't have these like these predefined paths to success and then your hot podging and bolting on whatever random stuff along the way. Ergo this is where we found ourselves versus you know ember takes a lot more time initially to get what you want but of course what you want is a full fledged you know grown up web application and it's ready for that and so you know your time to win is a lot longer but of course you know after that initial hardship you you get a lot out of the box.
Right and I think we could kind of bend the curve there like make it very easy to get started and try out the limmer just understand do I like this templating language do I like this auto tracking thing you know do I like the it's take on rendering and state management in general. And I think that's really where you know we are our strengths are like if you're not into the react model of like externalizing all your state or using hooks for everything that if it doesn't make sense to you like I've tried mob X with hooks and it feels like it's just fighting the framework and I've looked at the mob X react code and it feels like it's fighting the framework.
And view does have a more similar model to what we do in ember but it also has like a personally more like angular one templating language that i'm not a super fan of And I also don't like the way that just anything is reactive under data right it's like any it the way they do that is not very safe and I personally don't really like it very much it's just not very explicit. And it can break very easily if you're not basically if you put anything that has a private field into data in view it it's going to break entirely I believe. So stuff like that so we have by contrast like explicit auto track data where you annotate all the things that are tracked very explicitly.
And then we have a pretty mature templating language that declaratively responds to changes in that data and it's all integrated all the way down through the entire rendering layer which is not the same with like mob X and react for instance. Yeah, you know mob X being state management on top of that which still doesn't give you an application so it's again it's it's it's yeah it's not anywhere near like an apples apples comparison you know you're you're. Deciding on a pattern for state management and then yeah you still need react router and it's but not to be honest in the react world I actually really like the next framework I think that like it's giving it a lot of like saying defaults to get.
Ready and going and some interesting things that they're doing with the API routes also there to sort of give you a certain like a server bolt on along the way yeah you mentioned mob X a few different times and. That experience isn't great the last time I had an experience with that was to refactor it out and have components a bit more state full just using hooks along the way and you know more of a more of an amber like pattern where the components are dumb and your higher order components are controlling some of that yeah getting like an overall like state management package out of there I highly agree with.
Yeah it's yeah the reason I bring up mob X is because it is more similar to how we think about state in ember and I really just think it's like. It's just two very different models of thinking about state like if you if you like the redux like kind of solution or like you state which is just like or use reducer right they're like kind of similar um you states just kind of more distributed in a way but it makes you think in a very similar way. React is totally pushing you towards that you know and I see some advantages to it and it can be nice I have also been very confused by it multiple times and had very tricky little bugs when I was doing things that would have been trivial in other frameworks so.
I don't know i'm not sold on it yeah yeah especially when you try to put it in an amber app like I was using amber redux a few jobs ago and was not my favorite experience and some people love it but not for me. I think if you used like I made the tracked redux library a while back because people were basically being like we can't like make a tracked version of redux how are we supposed to do tracked and redux and stuff I was like no you can it's totally possible i'll make it and I made it. It's a real paradigm shift I think more than anything and people get used to and have the comforts and benefits of a particular pattern and you know yeah you can you can certainly debate you know pros and cons all along the way and have you know i'm sure both sides of the story can have successes say right but.
What you're comfortable with there's something to be said with that because you can be productive with what you're most comfortable with even at the end of the day if a team of 10 says it's shit you know well i made this thing with it right so it's yeah it's interesting there's there are some of those that I think that are. There are very clever ways to solve a problem that may or may not require that level of complexity so I think sometimes yeah I would like to just love complexity like I want to make it hard yeah I want to rethink this thing that works sometimes because I have some you know I have a research paper on it and I i've come up with some other algorithms to attack the problem.
I do think though like regressing a little bit back to like you know bringing up glimmer a few different times and I haven't done too much with it since I did a glimmer talk like after its release. I did a little demo and like a glimmer talk and I didn't think like oh this independently actually has a lot of power I think for people to show. A different pattern of doing things and being apples to apples to react and I wonder it would be interesting to take that down a few different paths because like one thing that Robin I've talked about a few different times is sort of like what is the creative equivalent to react native because react native has a lot of power there starting early up and getting you know closer to the hardware and then giving you a way to sort of have three applications from one code base and there's a couple of
buttons around that like I wonder if glimmer could really take a similar path there to you know yeah it absolutely could there actually is a glimmer native project that somebody was working on for a little while and apparently use native script and he was able to build a like kind of basic app I think he was trying to convince his company to choose it but the issue is that I think it's about finding somebody to support it because the thing about the native script ecosystem is it from my experience with it and from what I've seen is that a large company eventually out grows it like Airbnb dropped react native and you know Facebook does use it but they also have a very unique type of app they also use a ton of web views or at least they did historically
most other companies do not really use it at scale and instead go native and in my experience and from everybody that I've talked to so yeah it's much better for small scale projects or getting started iterating quickly right because it's not as resource intensive it's not like an iOS developer and an Android developer but you do get a lot of those benefits that you talked about right it's not like developing a progressive web app which has its own like ton of pitfalls and is much harder like in terms of getting good performance in terms of getting a good UX even with like cordova phone gap type of solution
it's way harder to match what you can do with react native totally out of the box but that's the problem like that midsize company that is like just getting started like my wife's company long game they use react native they're also you know 10 people and they've been iterating incredibly quickly and going through many different app designs like they think it meets their use cases very well and I think at some point if they you know I get their next round of funding and everything they they may end up going native they've even talked about it so finding that like company that is willing to sponsor that work and kind of get it going so that at least after that it can become a community effort to kind of support that's that's the hard part because LinkedIn for instance is just definitely not going to be interested in that
I actually spoke to an iOS developer once and I brought up the idea of it I don't even think I brought that up I brought up like progressive web apps and like how we we're doing that because that is something we still do want to support in the future and as much easier for us to support as a framework and he was like yeah if a glimmer if we if LinkedIn ever did like a glimmer native or react native I would quit like straight up so that's interesting right yeah I mean okay so yeah that's a great great point they bring up that like resources as a whole you know you have a mature iOS and a mature Android team what does this bring to the table
it is more appealing to smaller teams that want to distribute across platforms that maybe don't aren't super resource intensive and then like that's a great fit and then sort of those apps mature maybe there's some migration there that does make you know that's that's a pretty good case for that I think that's probably true it's interesting it was on a project last year where there was the intention to sort of have similar views shared across and we were able to utilize some react native via expo to export views that could be rendered within flutter and then going into like iOS and some other stuff you know yeah exactly and like so you have your progressive web app that could be you know just the normal web
things but then the years were shared expo views that were ingested by both the progressive web app and ingested by flutter to eventually become iOS but again you know yeah yeah and this was so it was a like an admin app for infield pros working with IoT devices so again it's like a really specific scope and where you know like hardware wise this is going to work really well I mean you know something like LinkedIn where you're going to have a lot of like media content or you might want access to okay I need microphone I need these other things that like oh you're on the metal what's the best way to do that I mean native always kind of keep winning there because you either have bugs or or performance issues related when to start to like add those layers
yeah it's uh there's no one size fits all I think that's really what it comes down to yeah I think at least currently that's true um basically I think the next like five 10 years native script solutions will continue to have a niche and especially like quick apps that need to be built like that that are very scoped right um internal corporate apps or uh you know maybe a restaurant wants an app like something smaller that's custom and again it isn't going to be like you know uh LinkedIn or Facebook or uh you know a game app or something um that is going to be a great niche for native script solutions for quite a while
I think eventually progressive web apps are going to close the gap um to me it's a matter of when not if and that's because the web platform has just continued to like slowly grow it grows so slowly and I think people it can uh underestimate the trajectory because of that at some point like it feels like it's never going to happen um but if you know you go back 10 years and look at what the web platform has done like web assembly is a thing and it is slowly gaining usage pretty soon you're going to be able to write any language in the browser at all like any language you want it's going to be able to translate between different languages pretty
easily compared to previous runtimes compared to other operating systems and whatnot um and then service workers are finally happening uh week refs are happening so you'll actually be able to use web assembly from like JavaScript much more easily and use web assembly with the DOM much more easily yeah I I just think at some point it's going to close that gap I think it's going to take a lot of time and I also think like you know it really depends what uh Google and Apple decide because is it going to even to their app store revenue and stuff who knows um but I'm sure they kind of see the writing on the wall too because I like talk about how the the web browser somehow became like
the universal VM sometimes and when I say that I mean like this would this is in like civilization seven or eight or whatever this is a technology on the tech tree like the universal VM is a like an actually really valuable technology and Java originally wanted to be the universal VM like it wanted to be like write anything run it anywhere and um then it got by you know oracle and whatever that didn't work but JavaScript somehow became it and then it just keeps pushing that so did you know that like you can write there's a startup that was like making it so you could write wasm on the ethereum blockchain and I had no idea but in a way that doesn't surprise me because what
can't go into a blockchain as well everything but there's also there's also like startups that are making little like IoT devices that can run wasm on like uh you know a raspberry pie type thing so that you don't have to code and see like it's literally gonna be everywhere because it's just happens to work everywhere so why not yeah yeah is it like the next evolution of the Chrome OS then in a way maybe I mean yeah I mean Chrome OS is almost like the next iteration of AOL for me because for some people that's their gateway to the internet right and it's through this curated interface so anyway I haven't actually ever used Chrome OS
I don't know that I have either I had a little netbook once that I turned into a hack and Tosh back in the day and it started with Chrome OS first and then anyway so for like 30 minutes I used it and I was like yep I'm done with this yeah I mean it's interesting kind of talking about there's been so much work put into JavaScript running everywhere and you know all different kinds of ways has there been anything for anything else like is anyone trying to run I don't know other languages everywhere or is everyone just like you know on the I know web development so I would like to do this for everything and you know I think the closest before that was Java
and I think that was kind of the pitch that Sun was giving back in the day I mean I wasn't there I was like six or something so if you know some of the ages here Chris we want to we're known friends um but yeah my understanding was like they had a lot of really cool ideas like that like that was part of why Java applets were a thing um they wanted that's kind of why the import system is the way it was like you know calm dot org dot whatever uh Java things they wanted you to actually be able to just import like modules like Java code directly from the internet and so they figured you should organize your modules by like company name so that you could like
have the DNS look it up and stuff and um they they had a lot of really cool ideas it just eventually might take on it is that eventually it kind of got locked down because they realized they could make a profit off of it and they focused just on supporting Java for their like corporate use cases for the most part um Java scripts on the other hand kind of warmed its way in through the document viewer more and more people wanted more and more powerful things out of JavaScript eventually they figured out they could make it really fast and oh it just happens to be on literally every platform like why don't it literally is just like the the most amazing accident that's ever happened
yeah i'm not mad at it i enjoyed java script i i feel like lesson i i enjoy a lesson less every year but you know it's it's got its ups and downs it's becoming a crotchety old man like me a whole bunch of things i don't like but we don't have to talk about it this episode my biggest thing is like spending hours and hours debugging performance things like when you have to try to understand what is going on under the hood of JavaScript virtual machines it's i wish i could just use a language like rust and just know like i uh i messed up my memory allocation there we go nice yeah but that's the fun though it's the wild west right you can be like
this variable is a string now it's a number now it's whatever now it's gone like you know wait listen you huda if you're listening come get this man he he wants to be on your team i'm sure he is uh anyway you guys are continuing to enjoy yeah i mean it's late for me like i i had a couple of drinks before the podcast to be honest okay i had some dinner and appertivo and you know i'm i'm doing doing well over here so oh right yeah we're on the well i'm one hour ahead of you Chris and in Arizona you know sometimes we're on the same time sometimes we're not because that's just how we do it here because you don't do daylight savings right no no i like daylight savings go away
there's a huge number one would do that yeah we're not farmers anymore let's be honest i really wish it it causes the accidents every year right like a lot of accidents yeah because people are tired it's messed up exactly just stick to the same time you know what i would be okay with is daylight savings time but every time we just jump forward like so that i get that extra hour of sleep every time i mean i'm perfectly okay that's not when you're alive yeah at some point in your life you're working at midnight i'm okay with it but it's not midnight actually it's just three o'clock yes yeah i don't know why
we were so you know focused on making that the thing anyway why does it have to be it's okay you know six p.m. is kind of the same time a day everywhere why couldn't it just be one time for everyone and then if you're somewhere it's 12 if you're somewhere it's six like doesn't matter china does that china is one time zone china is as big as the us but it has one time zone wow it's a choice i guess most everyone lives in one place though not a lot of people in the rest of the china there's a lot of people in china man um i mean most people do live on the coast though yeah but like yeah there's a lot of people i'm just enjoying it but how are she on
where else are you gonna put the factories the big factories that the people live in and have their entire lives and yeah i guess it's harder to ship things from the middle of a country if you have a good train network not as much and they do have a pretty good train network have you been to china yeah i have actually i went to um started off in hong kong uh cross over to guang jo went up to chang shang which is like just a below Beijing then we went inland to shion which is in shinjiang which is where like all the wiger stuff is happening right now like that's really messed up um and i actually thought that was one of the
most interesting parts of the trip because i'd never seen like i never imagined i would have seen a mosque in china um and also just the people in general it was like you could tell they were like half way between like middle eastern and like hong chinese um it was like almost that missing link right like it just sometimes it feels like there's such dramatic differences between people and then you find out that it really isn't like we're all just you know the same and there's just this anyways um and so then then we traveled actually up through Tibet which was also really cool and ended up in Nepal oh wow nice so this was just a leisure trip not a business trip
no this was just kind of one of those like Odyssey explore the world type of trips um it was a good time i i don't know if i'd recommend it anymore actually just things have gotten a little sketchy over there um but at the time it was it was very interesting uh to see like in a lot of ways they were so much more uh you know open than we are like you know you go to any shopping center in america and you're gonna see like big box stores and like the same chains over and over you go to the shopping centers in like china and there's just like a thousand different vendors selling the same stuff it's incredibly competitive
oh yeah yeah i love that in Thailand actually it gives you the opportunity to go in there and and create your own destiny in a way yeah did you have a lot of tea in china oh yeah a lot of tea a lot of um noodles a lot of McDonald's because that was like the food that we were comfortable with for when we ran out of other things McDonald's and kfc yeah i was just saying kfc right but then oh yeah it's good stuff um the Kentucky fried chicken fun fact though i actually prefer Korean fried chicken uh it's good stuff is amazing yeah i'm uh i'm a quarter Korean i love green food oh man kfc is definitely pretty amazing yeah i mean kfc the literal Kentucky one
it's good i grew up on that kind of like southern food special place there but Korean fried chicken just it's it's perfect it's done just right it's not it's crunchy there's the little air space there it's cooked well and juicy and like you know and and you don't have all that breading i lived catacorn from a banchan chicken in dc and navy art and it was you know probably not a great idea for me but i had it like once a week it was all so good yeah banchan is good yeah we got one here recently i'm very excited about that because uh food diversity and phoenix we have great mexican food we have really good sushi
rest the stuff it has a lot of get a lot of fresh fish from from all the water there and phoenix you know what ironically we do because apparently we're on some sort of like fresh delivery route like out from like LA and and San Diego so it's like coming in right there and they go through here to get to Vegas and so we get a ton of fresh fish delivery here it's better here there's a there's a lot of really good sushi here and it's actually better here than it is in dc so you don't want anything out of the water in dc uh shellfish the shellfish is great there so obviously the soft shellfish is really good that always from the bay there but not from the
Potomac or anything yeah yeah so is there not good say she and dc there's not i mean i went to a couple of pretty good places but they were very expensive and here you can get really good for you know moderate price it doesn't have to be like this you know five star experience to get good sushi and in dc i found it to be like you had to go really expensive places to get the good same with the mexican food there mexican food in dc is horrible i'm sorry to anyone listening who's in dc and whatever else maybe you have a counter experience it's not good it's really bad that's why you want to live slightly outside of dc also because so we like to think that like
any mexican that's kind of like hole in the wall like kind of crappy place is usually better food than everywhere else so like you're not going to get that in you know a city as much because there's like more competition more stuff around whatever um so you know there's a couple places out near us that have pretty good mexican and we also have a place that people say is pretty good sushi i don't personally eat sushi because i just don't like it but yeah uh are you ready for a chuck story sure sure okay so the best mexican i ever had in dc and i'm not sure if it exists there anymore or whatnot but um so we moved there uh like 2011 something like that and went to first
so i'm gonna give you a little counterpoint here so the we went to laurel plaza which is uh i don't know it's like 17th and around you street just a little south of you and it's very popular place people all said oh yeah they have great mexican food or that um i got this thing that was i think it was a chimichanga but it tasted like it had like denty more beef stew in it and i asked them for hot sauce and they brought me um oh what is that just like Louisiana hot sauce whatever like spascus sauce and i was like oh no do you have anything else like chalula like popular brands like chalula or something and they're like no this is all we have okay so terrible mexican food
replicated this experience a few different times and various levels but still pretty bad so some friends told us about a speak easy restaurant that was kind of uh in the neighborhood up uh not Adams Morgan see i'm starting to forget all the neighborhoods but like up near the target um anyway regardless near the target yep near a target which is a big thing in the city uh you have a target in the city that's a big deal so in it's like a housing project that you go to you go to whatever address dial a number on the phone for the unit and you know they let you know if they have space for you or not yeah you know we have four people they're like okay then they
come to the window and drop keys out of the window you go inside and uh they have like a couple of picnic tables there's like a grandma like you know stirring some big stew and just it smells amazing it was like oh this is this is awesome okay stacks of like uh or chata like juices and just beers and whatever else you want and you just like sit down you get a little menu it's like kind of like a restaurant but it's a secret restaurant it's not anywhere you just treat your restaurant yeah we just have to have friends that like knew about this thing and this is what you do so we're like okay i guess we'll go do it was fantastic like really nice
Mexican food we have like some like squash blossom case ideas and some pizole and like other like very uh tacos de lingua you know like the stuff it's like a little edgy but like really good stuff so i had that that was good in dc don't think any i don't think anyone can replicate it there ever again and the rest is shite so that's my story fair enough yeah i asked because uh yeah Liz and i are thinking about well we're just trying to figure out where we might want to move we've been trying to buy a house in the bay for like a year and it's where it's just like yeah that's not gonna happen in an area that we like uh and california as a whole is also like yeah i don't
know if it would be the smartest place to buy a house now that everybody's going remote and you know the fires are like getting bigger every year um so we're looking around her friend works i think in the state department or something in government in general she like learned Korean she does like translations or something um and so yeah we figured Arlington, Alexandria, just anywhere around there might be good um but it said not you don't recognize it so i have a lot of opinions about things i don't know if you've noticed this but um so we lived there for like seven years and we lived in the city we were not
bridge and tunnel like robby so do you have kids not yet but maybe in the next few years cool it's gonna be fun for you obviously once a pandemic is not in play uh lived a few different places in the city i being in the city is is definitely a great experience and i would recommend that buying is obviously a challenge in the city but at least like maybe go give yourself a year there um because the market's hot right now anyway with money being cheap like things are yeah you know the people places won't even let you do inspections yada yada yada so you know go uh we lived in three different places so we are around like 16th in you like i said i
worked at national geographic and so my work was 13 blocks straight south that was really fun for a little while and then of course i could just run into the white house three more blocks um so there's a lot going around there there's um oh i lived in capital hill for a little bit that's a little little slower um nice places but a little more family centric and then navy yard which was kind of blowing up when we lived there and has continued to so you're right on the water there it's really accessible to a bunch of areas like three different metros very walkable bike friendly city not a ton of uh snow obviously and then uh we were five blocks south of the capital
so even when it did snow we just like walked up there my son was like a year old and we can just like sled him down right next to the capital it was a lot of fun yeah totally i mean it would be your opposition to like you know somewhere close to dc on the metro or near the metro that you can just kind of ride in anytime like if there's other stuff there that you like like i don't have the same experience because you pay just as much and sometimes more because you're in the school district competition versus like the non-kid person thing and i could walk there and you were gonna take a train in a busy train in and have a much longer commute that's fair honestly
yeah i think we could probably buy in the city we've talked about like how we wouldn't mind living in brooklyn or in san francisco if we could buy a house but you know the houses that are for sale that are like you know decent size are like two or three million so yeah exactly and you can do some of that especially in like um like east capital hill there's definitely plenty of things to be and there's an area a little bit north called brookland uh there's things up there or if you go over on the northwest side and start to go up west consen you have like near like cathedral heights things like that which are a little further up but more a family
centric and and you know there's a housing inventory there that that's actually pretty nice too but if i was like without kid i would just rent a place for a year right in the heart of it enjoy it and then figure it out i think probably no matter where we decide to go we're going to rent for a while most likely it just seems very intimidating to try to buy a house without actually living there first yeah yeah and you gotta know what it feels like to like have to go buy a gallon of milk you know whatever exactly yeah how hard is this and do i enjoy whatever in this neighborhood and yeah it sucks too because we really do feel like owning a house and if
if we had maybe bought one two years ago we would have been able to get into the bay area market with like a good at a good price point probably not like the nicest areas but like somewhere that's not super far out now it's just like insane i mean if you if you want to experience that feeling i'm gonna call you the next time something breaks in my house and let you know like all-surprise thing i need an air conditioning like because that's what owning a house feels like is every couple of months something needs your attention yeah or you know stop on you know on your way out stop by here you can mow my lawn you know from the edges whatever else that's what
owning a house feels like so you know you know this pluses and minuses i think it'll probably get really old real fast but currently we're living in like a 700 square foot one bedroom apartment with way too small a kitchen and that's yeah i even think just like an upgrade in an apartment honestly like a two-bedroom it would be so nice when we actually go i got you know you i i cut you off uh we we could actually uh do that in san francisco right now we're just kind of over san francisco now i get this boy i'm telling you i'm gonna send us our send you our old building in dc uh it was like a brand new building and we moved into it it was uh two bedroom two bath
930 square feet we felt like oh my gosh we made it this place is amazing uh fun fact side note that's the size of our master suite of our house now so anyway pluses and minuses yeah but you're not walking to everything right now now i can do a little bit of walking walking here uh lucky for me that's like why we chose our neighborhood is it's not like it we don't live in a trackhouse like way out in the suburbs we're a little bit like connected to a few things and not like quite in the city but we're like basically between phoenix and scotsdale in a place called archadia so there's like a nice big mountain in the background and there's a you know some businesses
and uh like walkable distance between like 15-20 minutes from our house so we do that here and there that's like kind of the ideal for us too like we were looking in mostly like Berkeley Alcerino Albany of you know Bay Area cities um because they're very much like that like most houses are within you know 20-ish minutes of walking of like something uh we were looking in Oakland a little while but oakley can be rough and a lot of the neighborhoods we were looking in we're just like uh especially with the prices they are the way they are right now like if there's a downturn and we're upset down on a house in a neighborhood that's not the nicest yeah like I
don't know about that I grew up like in the Oakland Hills but on the outskirts of Oakland and like knowing what that's like so well try something else why not right yeah we're looking at like Denver oh go sorry I was just gonna say except for the market is just crazy right now like people are like hey a house for sale here's a pile of cash like where did you get that pile of cash you can buy what you do is you move to DC hang out for a year and you can buy Robbie's house when he moves out to the country yeah or you can just rent my house and we can move to the country soon they look you have buyers remorse didn't you just buy that house like six months ago yeah no I mean
we just so I don't know if we told you the whole story but we were looking at land first out of the middleburg and we put an offer on some land we're gonna build a house on it and then that fell through and we were like okay well we still want to move somewhere because we're just tired of being in the same house just you know just for fun so we we moved basically three blocks down the road which in hindsight was maybe not the best choice we should have just stayed and waited until we could get something in the country but yeah whatever I mean we like our new house better like our old house you had to go up and down the stairs a lot because the kitchen was on
the first floor and then the living room was on the second floor so we have dogs and we were like carrying them up and down because like they can't do the stairs all the time and like yeah it just got old but now everything like main living is on the first floor so we can we bring them down once and we're there the whole day so like I mean and you're 30 now so those knees have got to be popping yep yep age jokes hashtag age yes all right well I'm gonna end it here because we're over an hour we can keep chatting a bit after if you want but thanks everybody for listening and if you liked what you heard you know follow us we really appreciate it and we'll keep doing
the same thing we actually next week with another whiskey and I don't want that you