202: From the Rickhouse: Why Svelte Might Just Outdo React w/ Rich Harris

[00:00] - Intro: Welcome to Syntax. Welcome to a brand new episode of the Front End Happy Hour podcast. Welcome to this week’s JS Party. Live from Ship Shape Studios, this is Whiskey Web and Whatnot. With your hosts, Robbie the Wagner, and me, Charles William Carpenter III. That’s right Charles. We drink whiskey and talk about web development. I mean, it’s all in the name. It’s not that deep. This is Whiskey Web and Whatnot. Do not adjust your set.

[00:36] - Robbie Wagner: Hey, what’s up everybody, it’s your host with the most. Robbie Milkstains Wagner and Chuck Needs a Visa Carpenter.

[00:45] - Chuck Carpenter: I’d rather be that than Milkstains. I don’t know how you got to that.

[00:47] - Robbie Wagner: You can see them right here. See how high def I am.

[00:49] - Chuck Carpenter: Yeah.

[00:50] - Robbie Wagner: Were you having milk steak for dinner? No, I was burping babies all the time. Do you get that reference All over me? Milk steak no.

[00:59] - Chuck Carpenter: Oh, that’s a. It’s always sunny thing. You should look it up. Just even I don’t even think I make milks like steaks with milk. Charlie talks about going out for a fancy dinner of milk steak and then he leans in when he gets called out on it. It’s really worth it. I’ve needed a lot more slapstick humor in my life lately. So, uh, you know what else I need? Whiskey, whiskey, sweetens and whiskey. All right, showing the bottle, let’s see if you can make it work. Suck with cameras. Perfect, that’s the Sweetens Cove, tennessee. It is called that because it is a blend of Kentucky and Tennessee whiskeys. It is 110.7 proof. It is not age stated, so no idea on those blends, but they blend them first and then they finish them with sugar, maple wood staves or something of that nature I don’t have. I don’t have mine with me because also sponsored by age and ore. Uh, their travel kit is my jam, yeah now in olive and, uh, I don’t know.

[02:02] - Robbie Wagner: they have a bunch of colors they emailed me about. Oh, cool Is that?

[02:06] - Chuck Carpenter: for like this little kit thing or for like the big bag.

[02:09] - Robbie Wagner: I think it’s for the bottle tote.

[02:10] - Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, I’ve got a bottle tote. Yeah, I paid for everything from theirs and I have enjoyed it. I have the travel decanter set too. It’s like a little camping-like thing. But anyway, bleedy, bloody, I’m going to do a little pouring a lot of pouring.

02:27 I’m going to do a lot of pouring because I have a lot of whiskey here. I filled it up in case you want to see. This is how it goes. This is how I go home to my family, how they tolerate me after. It’s hard to say, but you know, it’s just another day. Another day. Give her a sniff, Give it a sniff. I respect its privacy.

[02:46] - Robbie Wagner: Yeah, it hasn’t told us its pronouns yet.

[02:49] - Chuck Carpenter: Well, there’s definitely a lot of brown sugar on the nose. Maybe a light floral.

[02:53] - Robbie Wagner: I don’t know. Yeah, I’m getting the sugar.

[02:56] - Chuck Carpenter: Yeah.

[02:57] - Robbie Wagner: Sugar sugar, Do, do, do, do, do.

[03:00] - Chuck Carpenter: I don’t know.

[03:00] - Robbie Wagner: It’s just, it smells very just like sugary bourbon-y Not getting a lot of notes out of it and let’s see what the taste does.

[03:10] - Chuck Carpenter: Whoa, it’s like a big red gum punch to the face at the beginning. That’s not a good sign. Oh man, been drinking too much milk, eating milk steak.

[03:23] - Robbie Wagner: No, oh, I don’t know it. Just it had a weird, like it was smooth for a second and then it got really hot and it was just burning all the way down.

[03:33] - Chuck Carpenter: It is a cinnamon bomb for the priming, so I’m not going to let that overly.

[03:39] - Robbie Wagner: Yeah, let me try that again. Can’t go any worse than that first one.

[03:44] - Chuck Carpenter: Still a lot of cinnamon up front, definitely oh yeah, so spicy.

[03:50] - Robbie Wagner: It’s like a like a snickerdoodle that you spilled the entire thing of cinnamon into that’s not a bad way of describing it.

[03:59] - Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, like if you wanted to chew a too much, like I never did this, but did you ever see the cinnamon challenge?

[04:07] - Robbie Wagner: I was just going to ask you about that. One of my friends did it in my kitchen. He was like you want to do this. I was like you first and he tried it.

[04:16] - Chuck Carpenter: It doesn’t work. No, I’m always the darer, I’m not the doer. I’m, like you know, goading friends into doing stupid things. I don’t really like to do the stupid things.

[04:28] - Robbie Wagner: Yes, I like to watch the stupid things.

[04:30] - Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, yeah, it’s entertaining on this side of it and I didn’t find myself all that convincing in life, but apparently enough to get friends to do dumb things like that. I think the closest I I mean, and I wouldn’t even consider this anywhere near I remember getting 50 Buffalo wings with my brother and there was this whole thing of like a challenge is who was going to get through 25. That was probably as good as it got and you and you had trouble with that. I didn’t.

[04:58] - Robbie Wagner: I didn’t have trouble at the time. It was a much. 25 is like how my ideal number that I would like to eat Wow.

[05:04] - Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, I definitely don’t go that high at this stage, but I think part of that is not necessarily the volume of food, but like that much spice in my stomach is, I’m going to regret it later.

[05:16] - Robbie Wagner: That is true, the spice is, but that amount of chicken wings is no problem. The time it is a problem is when it’s banchan and it’s double fried, because I was like I forgot and got that, like recently, and uh, I was like, hey, I can get 12 wings and eat those.

[05:33] - Chuck Carpenter: No, you can’t. Well, funny thing, banchan has really like exploded, because I’m in tucson, arizona, now for the next five weeks and there’s a banchan here. I saw someone with a bag and I looked it up. I was like what?

[05:42] - Robbie Wagner: yeah, it’s delicious and they have new sauces, like the last time I went before now was years ago, cause that was like when Caitlin would still have chicken and they had like the two sauces, like the soy and the spicy, and now they have the like something, some word, I don’t know that’s, and that’s the best one. It’s like just a bunch of consonants Gucci Chong, a bunch of consonants gucci chang, since it’s korean fried chicken starts with a y, I think yeah, you also hit it.

[06:07] - Chuck Carpenter: I don’t know. You could look it up uh, look at that in the midst of that I’m getting. Now it’s softening on the spice, but it still has a lot of spice, definitely still some sweet in the middle and the sweet isn’t very nuanced, maybe, you know, maybe because it said maple wood, I’m thinking maple a little more and then I’m getting like a slight bitterness at the end and a bitterness from I kind of. It’s weird. It’s almost like having like a little bitter kale or something, but it’s very light, but it’s a little bitter. Like that I hate kale by the way, yeah, kale is trash, kale is horrible. I’d rather eat four pounds of spinach, because I don’t mind spinach.

[06:49] - Robbie Wagner: I can’t paste into the chat, but it’s yang yum Yang yum.

[06:53] - Chuck Carpenter: Okay, I mean, it sounds like something I want to try. I love banchan.

[06:57] - Robbie Wagner: Because I like sweeter sauces usually, but I also like spicy, and so I didn’t like that. Their spicy was just spicy. So this, but I also like spicy and so I didn’t like that. Their spicy was just spicy. So this is like it has a little bit of sweetness and spiciness and that’s like exactly what I want?

[07:10] - Chuck Carpenter: okay, I’ll definitely have to try it. I definitely liked the spicy. I like the pickled. What is it they give you? The like pickled daikons or whatever, I don’t know. I just eat the wings you don’t yeah, that sounds like a vegetable.

[07:22] - Robbie Wagner: You don’t have that yeah, no, I think it does give you the option of like do you want the these like pickled vegetables, or this like other thing? And I think that both of them I’m like.

[07:29] - Chuck Carpenter: No, thank you fair enough, suit yourself on that I like them. I think it’s a nice like kind of balance with this, with the heat. And then it used to be like during the week of course this was pre-children, but like on a tuesday they would do specials on like half liters of soju. So you’re just like drinking soju. It’s chilled. It basically is as strong as vodka. It’s ridiculous.

[07:52] - Robbie Wagner: And then eating a bunch of chicken yeah, yeah, they have like a lot more stuff than I remember too, unless I just didn’t look at the menu well before. But they have like bulgogi fried rice. Caitlin gets like a mozzarella fried thing on a stick, like a Korean corn dog kind of thing, except it’s mozzarella instead of like a corn dog, and then they put their sauce on it. You can choose your sauce and it’s like. And then they have pot stickers which are also deep fried.

[08:21] - Chuck Carpenter: But they have like a bibimbap and some fried rice things. They’ve always had a few things. They used to have a little Korean potato pancake thing. That was really good. The corndog thing sounds like it’s a way. I love those things, so usually when you go to a Korean corndog place you can choose it with, like a normal dog, a spicy sausage or cheese, or you can half and half any of those together right and then it’s just got that like great crust and stuff. They’ve they’ve perfected the corn dog in many ways yeah, I mean I think korean.

[08:58] - Robbie Wagner: Well, I was gonna say street food, but pretty much all korean food is just bomb, like they got food right let’s put a pin in that for a second, because I can go down a rabbit hole there.

[09:09] - Chuck Carpenter: Should we rate this whiskey maybe? Yeah, we should rate this whiskey, I’m getting a little more nuance out of it. I get a weird salad finish. What do you think? You almost spit it out, so should be great honestly it’s not.

[09:21] - Robbie Wagner: It’s just a really spicy bourbon-y. I don’t know. It doesn’t feel super well-aged or great or smooth or anything to me. So I’m going to say I probably like it better than a Jack Daniels. So we’ll say four.

[09:37] - Chuck Carpenter: Okay, all right, so middle of the road for you.

[09:41] - Robbie Wagner: Interesting.

[09:49] - Chuck Carpenter: I’m going to say so. It’s interesting because we have enjoyed every other sweeten’s cove that we have tried, but bear in mind that those have been on a higher price point, and this, I think, was around like 50 bucks, right?

[09:54] - Robbie Wagner: so comparatively, it’s cheap.

[09:54] - Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, maybe it was like 40 bucks, so I think it’s their way of entering and so they’re cutting the cost in some ways. Unfortunately, that comes across in the glass. I don’t know. It’s a little weird. I don’t love it. I don’t want a cinnamon bomb in my face and even as it’s smoothed out, it just isn’t balanced. To me it’s like everything is kind of extreme and so, in spite of the price, I have to think about it like, okay, a george dickle or belmead is another, like tennessee whiskey, or just recently just had another buffalo trace around the house for friends and because I’m on the go and I can’t take whiskey everywhere, all of those like kind of punch above that, above this for me, and so they try to do something interesting and I can feel like they made them all worse and their other stuff is pretty good. So for me this is like I’m not going to spit it, it out, but I’m kind of like at a three, I’m almost like at a two and a half, like I don’t love it, I’m gonna finish it yeah, and then I’m gonna give that bottle away.

[10:51] - Robbie Wagner: Be done with it yeah, I mean, sweeten’s cove is one of my favorite brands, so it is disappointing that it’s like not all that good, not delivering, just like not great.

[10:59] - Chuck Carpenter: So, uh, yeah, yeah I’m gonna say just two and a half. I’m gonna go two and a half. I just feel like it’s not great. That’s like if you see this, or a bottle of buffalo trace.

[11:07] - Robbie Wagner: Just get the buffalo trace yeah, if you’re listening to this and you haven’t heard of sweeten’s cove, try the sweeten’s cove 13. It is like my favorite bourbon, but don’t try this one.

[11:17] - Chuck Carpenter: The kennessey stay away they could do a new arrested development song about it. Kenn, tennessee, don’t drink it, please. I didn’t watch Arrested.

[11:28] - Robbie Wagner: Development no, no, not the show.

[11:29] - Chuck Carpenter: There’s a band and then there’s a song called Tennessee. All the lights turn out here at a certain time Interesting. They say go home.

[11:38] - Robbie Wagner: Yeah, they say go home. They said, it was fine. The internet goes out soon too, it could.

[11:43] - Chuck Carpenter: It did go out once today, so if it happens, that would be a problem anyway. Okay, so is html a programming language okay.

[11:51] - Robbie Wagner: So, yes, it is, and I have a compelling reason why. Now it just like clicked finally for me. So all these languages that you would say for sure are programming languages, right, like, let’s say, java, php, c, whatever Java is compiled, or even if they’re not compiled, most of them end up you know, or every programming language ends up being assembly, binary, whatever.

12:19 So the thing you’re writing is not telling machines jack shit. So HTML is the same way it tells you know something down the line to tell a machine to put a pretty box on your screen.

[12:33] - Chuck Carpenter: Therefore it is a programming language right because your interface, you have abstractions right and your, in your direct interface, is the client and the client takes those abstractions and boils it down at some point.

[12:48] - Robbie Wagner: I guess right to a degree, so yeah, sure I could see that, yeah, so like I just thought about compiled languages and how like it’s very similar ideals, you know, in that way, though here’s this.

[13:01] - Chuck Carpenter: Okay, in that same way, because we’re talking about like document structure. To a degree is markdown a programming language.

[13:10] - Robbie Wagner: It has syntax, it does get read and interpreted and then shows you something else I wouldn’t say it’s not a programming language, but I think it’s a little subtly different that, like the browser on its own, you can’t just throw markdown in and like have it work. But yes, there is a um. You know, there are programs that will run that, that like can make that work. So I think it’s on the edge, but I would say it kind of is yeah, because I could almost go both ways.

[13:36] - Chuck Carpenter: It’s like programmatic word formatting versus like programmatic document formatting. So then we start to just look at the edges over and over again. I don’t know.

[13:47] - Robbie Wagner: Yeah, I don’t know. That just came to me in the car and I was like, well, it came to me cause I was listening to our episode 200, which we did not even announce, and it was like, fuck, I can’t think of that. Is that the one where I deploy men’s spirits? Yeah, that’s the one I quit right after right, and I don’t know what I’m doing here, but here we are.

[14:05] - Chuck Carpenter: I want it to be done at 200. I thought like that’s a good swan song, you know.

[14:10] - Robbie Wagner: I’m going to be like, yeah, just disappear, we’ll delete this one.

[14:13] - Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, cool. Can you release it at 300? It should be pretty good by then.

[14:18] - Robbie Wagner: We’ll see It’ll seem like triumphant return. Yeah, but we we’ve had 200 episodes now. I’m like many weeks behind posting social media updates, so I will get to that at some point. I’ve finally got the art on all the episodes and I spent a bunch of time I was fixing the uh. So our astro site has like the little little images by each episode, right, and it’s like a paginated list. So you have 15 and you click like more episodes and it loads 15 more and you know, etc, etc. And our scores were bad because those images are like 3 000 by 3 000 pixels and I was not changing them at all. And so I was like, huh, I know, like astro has this stuff built in right, they’ve got the image component. It’s a little different because this is a pre-act component. So I had some like nuanced things to figure out there. And then I was chatting with the astro folks and they were like you could just use get image and then like, like in on the api side, because it’s an api route that feeds all the episodes. I was like, oh, I didn’t realize I could do it like there. I thought it had to be in like an astro page or something, I don’t know. So I did it there and the first 15 were up to date because I was like loading those 15 manually so that when it like server side renders, you have 15 instead of no episodes. But then the rest never had images and I was like what the fuck, this is ridiculous, like why everything I try. I was like for days like getting pissed off at Astro, trying to get help in the channel, all this stuff, like probably making all those guys really upset. So shout out to those guys for being, you know, really good sports and helping me out. But, like it turned out, in the end the problem was the url for the api was going to whiskeyfm instead of the Vercel deploy preview, so it was always hitting the old api, so it would never be the new api, of course. So like I was like what, all right, that makes a lot of sense. So, yeah, that was like a waste of days of time that I could have been using to do social media stuff yeah and uh, you know, trying to create shareholder value, which I don’t know why you weren’t doing that.

[16:23] - Chuck Carpenter: Let’s see. Let’s see here. On here oh, I can claim a astro tag. I don’t know, there’s been something. I haven’t spent a lot of time in discord lately, but I was just gonna go try and look at you complaining. Yeah, I’m gonna see, I’m gonna out you a little bit.

[16:39] - Robbie Wagner: No, they pretty much had to like baby me, I’m it’s, I’m fine to have it all out in the open. They like or like have you tried console logging this? And what about this and what about this? And then, what about when you’re on vercel, have you tried console logging all those things? And so we did it all together like step through the whole thing, and it was still. It was logging all the correct urls every single time. So we were like, how can it be wrong? It says it’s correct everywhere, and then when it like goes to load it, it doesn’t work. And then another guy chimes in like are you sure that it’s not hitting the like prod site and not the preview? And I was like, oh fuck, I didn’t even think about that here it is.

[17:14] - Chuck Carpenter: Uh, did they recommend that you read the jquery docs?

[17:16] - Robbie Wagner: because you know you should really just kind of go backwards yeah, they did recommend that I start farming and never code again.

[17:24] - Chuck Carpenter: I think yeah I think you’ve hit your ceiling. You know what I mean. Sometimes there’s like that 10x and you’re like half x and like that’s worked for a while. But although I should give you credit, uh, to the opposition, because you’ve managed to make a career of ember js when there are less and less jobs, so you must know something, or you’re a great interviewer, like that guy they’re talking about on Twitter now, who’s had three to eight startup jobs for the last few years.

[17:53] - Robbie Wagner: I am not a great interviewer. I know that for sure. I do know Ember, though, and I’ve been doing a lot of bleeding-edge Ember stuff. Now my recent project has been to get ember data model fragments. Do you remember that at all? Not offhand, but so it’s basically like ember data has models and they have like relationships, like belongs to and has many, and a fragment is like a belongs to, like a embedded thing, but it’s not like a real relationship, it’s just like let’s just say it’s not an actual relationship.

[18:22] - Chuck Carpenter: They still want to use Jason or or objects. Yeah.

[18:25] - Robbie Wagner: Like you want to say this, uh, like an address. It’s not a relationship, but I want to have a shape to it and have that those things on it go through like transforms and make sure there are certain types and whatever.

[18:36] - Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, you can enforce the schema there without like yeah. Even on like a blob or something. Yeah like a blob or something. Yeah, so it stopped working with ember data. 466 is the last one. What is chris doing other?

[18:50] - Robbie Wagner: than cash and checks, I guess. Well, they changed. I’m gonna get this wrong. I can’t ever remember which way it was, but I think it was. The cash was a singleton or wasn’t a single. No, I think it was a singleton so that you could store whatever you wanted on it. Like it was a not documented, like you weren’t supposed to do that, but it happened to be a singleton, so they were abusing it and putting all of that in the cache and then it became not a singleton and like none of it works anymore. So from four seven up, it’s like that. But like we’re I’ve been working with him for the past few weeks on like we’re using uh warp drive 5.70-alpha.2 to uh work on this stuff. So we’re like like he’s writing the things and I’m consuming them as soon as he writes them and they have names like caution, dangerous, mega, don’t use this, please, don’t dot do this thing. And so we’re using that to like add back in old, deprecated stuff and add extensions and stuff to make all this work so that people can have a smoother upgrade path. So I’ve been doing a lot of that and like using the new add-on blueprints that are all Vite and like I don’t know it’s a crazy world man, this is like real JavaScript development over here.

[19:58] - Chuck Carpenter: Oh yeah, boy, what a leap forward. You get to do when you like, work for a company that embraces the technology you like, rather than just keep it alive Mm-hmm yeah.

[20:09] - Robbie Wagner: Yeah.

[20:10] - Chuck Carpenter: Big difference. What is the best model for working with those things, or do you have to kind of have your own? Who’s trained on the latest Ember?

[20:20] - Robbie Wagner: Oh, AI stuff. There is a Ember GPT that N nullvox made like an open ai, you can just choose ember. I haven’t found it to actually be that much better than just asking normal chat gpt, but like, maybe over time yeah, I think chat gpt seems to get like language better and anthropic tends to get like the code better, but it doesn’t get the nuances of I’m using ember like. None of them are like oh, dope ember, I know how to use ember like, I’ll write it for you. They’re like oh, javascript I guess and like. But the thing that gets me is I did like research mode right to try to do this model, fragment stuff and I’m like research it tell me like this is how I think we’re going to do the migration like can you look at just all the internet and like try to help me with that. And it’s like it gave me the most compelling research document that really convinced me. It was the way to do it. And I was like okay, like can you help me implement it? And I gave it a few days to try and basically ended up with slop that did nothing. Meanwhile, runspired was like oh yeah, you weren’t supposed to use that. You’re supposed to like do it this other way. And so I was operating on like the wrong assumptions from like when I started typing into AI. So like it was kind of a wasted experiment. But yeah, I’m interested to see like if I can start to get the structure of the way we’re going to actually do it. If I can get AI to like, learn what I did and complete it for me, I don’t know if it will. I’ve had a lot of trouble getting it to do anything useful.

[21:52] - Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, I mean, it can be pretty hit and miss. It’s kind of fun, though, when you can just give it a schema and, or you know, give it like some Jason blob and be like hey, write the form that ends up in this. I kind of like that yeah, you know, look at this other one, use this structure and write me a form, and that’s been like pretty good for me recently, except for today. It was like hot garbage. But I tried a couple different models and you know, like that’s what I. I’ll kind of like stick with one for a little bit and then when it stops working I switch. You know, and yeah, I asked claude a lot of questions to come up with plans and theories and all that stuff, and then I use windsurf and I’ll just switch the models through there. I’ve kind of found their swe model garbage, though for the most part like oh, it’s garbage, but I do like I like windsurf the best.

[22:41] - Robbie Wagner: I can’t really put my finger on why, because they’re all just like here’s a suggestion hit tab. But something about there here’s a suggestion hit tab just hits better. I like it. It just feels more polished, like just works.

[22:53] - Chuck Carpenter: So I’m into that. But I did see that VS Code has a Cloud Code extension now, which is kind of the same, except for without being able to jump around models.

[23:02] - Robbie Wagner: This just in! Whiskey.fund is now open for all your merch needs. That’s right, Robbie. We’re hearing reports of hats, sweaters, and T-shirts, as well as a link to join our Discord server. What’s a Discord server? Just read the prompter, man. Hit subscribe. Leave us a review on your favorite podcast app and tell your friends about our broadcast. It really does help us reach more people and keeps the show growing. All right, back to your regularly scheduled programming.

[23:38] - Chuck Carpenter: You know, as we spitball on tools though I want to hit my other hot take, since I didn’t out you on any bullshit one of the questions is really like what’s the right combination of ai tools for web dev right now, like what feels like the right vibe?

[23:52] - Robbie Wagner: I don’t know. I haven’t gotten anything to do anything flawless for me, and I’ve seen a lot of stories of people one-shotting lots of stuff, so I’m not really sure how that is working for them and also it depends on the exact that like if you’re using what do they call like claude is the model, what do they call their like chat on anthropic oh well, claude is the chat and then, like the models can be like claude and sonnet, claude, yeah, yeah, that’s, that’s okay. So so yeah, so I’m chatting with claude and I go all right, here’s warp drive actually has two llm optimized files to tell it how to learn how to use warp drive, which is pretty dope. If you do the full text one and you paste it in there, it goes. All right, cool, let me read it. And as soon as it’s done reading and it goes, you’ve reached the limit of the characters because it’s so big. So like I’ve had a lot of trouble with that. Why doesn’t it just like I used klein some, which is actually pretty nice, and it’s like you can hook it up to Claude and it just starts it when it starts getting close to the limit.

[24:55] - Chuck Carpenter: It like caches everything and keeps the chat going, so it kind of has a memory, but it like takes that whole history and compresses it because in Claude I thought, like because you can connect it to like github now and have it like read whole files there, and so I don’t I mean I haven’t hit the limit like that going through like a readme or something it’s really fucking annoying when you’re like vibe, coding through a thing and you got a few files, and then it tells you, it gives you that bait of like, I know exactly how to do the next file, here’s my plan.

[25:23] - Robbie Wagner: Then it goes you’re, you’ve hit the limit, and so then it’s like start a new chat. And I’m like, well, how do I, how do I get the context of this chat? So you have to I use like a chrome extension that like downloads the history of that chat and paste it in the new one and it learns what we talked about. And then I start again. It’s really cumbersome, I mean context issues.

[25:42] - Chuck Carpenter: I have had ones that go on for a while and and then when I think like okay, it’s working well and I’m afraid that it’s going to get confused as we keep going, I’ll ask it for a prompt to get this started again, like how next time. How can I get started this way? And then?

[25:58] - Robbie Wagner: it’ll give me that prompt for that.

[25:59] - Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, because I’ve been doing these like translation migrations. I’ll like show the content here and be like, okay, I need a migration to do a translation for this, because we don’t have any like content entry and so you just have to create these other translation models. But like, you either run a script which is like pretty flaky to try to do that from local or even in ci, so like you want to know it’s done through a non-schema changing migration awesome. So then I just have it kind of do that. But I’ve had times where it starts just like making up fucking fields and stuff and you’re like, okay, remember the other three times. We don’t have that field. What are you doing.

[26:40] - Robbie Wagner: It hallucinates so much. Yeah, I was telling I think I think this was uh with either typecraft or adam when you were out I was telling somebody about how, like I would tell it, hey, fix this test. Like the test is failing, can you like look at the code, look at the test, figure out what the problem is, and it would rewrite the code to be like if testing just return true, like was basically it’s, and I was like you know, like actually fix, like it is sneaky, and like, if you don’t know what code is at all, you would get really fucked. You would be like, oh, yeah, this like says if testing return these very specific static values, and I don’t really know why, oh, that’s because it’s fake. The tests don’t work. It’s just fake.

[27:26] - Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, it’s just faking it to pass, and that’s kind of funny yeah I have it start test from the beginning. I’ll be like this services file, each of these methods let’s create a unit test for, and then we’ll just like step through and kind of do that because can’t, can’t, I don’t even want to start making the tests, but I do want to make sure they work so yeah, like what I have.

[27:46] - Robbie Wagner: Well, yeah, somebody, one of the two of them I forget who I talk to about any of these things. I feel like we just bitch about ai all the time. Now they suggested like the one thing you should write yourself is the test, because if you’re confident in the test cases, then you know the code that gets produced if your tests pass. It has done it right. I’m like, oh, that’s a fair point, I do, I do think that sense?

[28:07] - Chuck Carpenter: No, it does. That’s definitely another option there.

[28:11] - Robbie Wagner: I hate writing tests, so I’d rather write the code and then be like what do you think the test should be?

[28:15] - Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, I prefer that A long time ago. The whole test-driven development, right, you start with a failing test and then you start writing the code to make it pass and you’re like, yeah, it sounds like I’m annoyed by the time I get to my code, though, okay, so you had one more thing here that’s pretty much related to what everything we’ve said, but like specifically the ones that are trying to one shot it like Bolt, Lovable Replit.

[28:41] - Robbie Wagner: Do we think these are like producing anything usable for anyone, or like what’s the use case?

[28:48] - Chuck Carpenter: I mean, I think it is. I have spoken to some people that have been like I think for personal software it could be very interesting because, like, if you’re out there and you’re trying to find budgeting software or something that kind of fits your mold and nothing’s quite clicking you can get some personalized software. That would be pretty cool, but I don’t, you know, I don’t know what, like the cost to get there. But uh, I’ve only tried it a little bit. I tried like bolt and lovable and replit. Bolt was the only thing in like one shot that was able to get me something working. The others like wasn’t even a working app and it’s like okay, I’ve spent 30 minutes here, I’m good, I’m gonna move on. You can’t do basic admin that has this, this, this. Well then, I don’t know, replit’s interesting, since the, the react guy, works there. Now the react guy, jordan walk, yeah, creator of react. So I’m like, oh, that’s interesting to like go down that path of. I don’t need to write any of that crap anymore. Even he’s sick of.

[29:48] - Robbie Wagner: React, yeah, react is awful, I agree, man. So anyway, but possibly, I mean maybe it’ll do something at some point and I think that it could do well for personal or internal software at some point, I think it’s good for like mocks, like it’s better than Figma, possibly if it makes something that looks good because you can actually click around. It’s good for like, if you’re a PM and you’re like okay, I’m trying to describe this like thing I want to my developers. I can just tell like something to make it for me, and then, if it happens to kind of make it similar to what I was thinking, that I can show them that and they can build it yeah, I mean it could bridge the gap and maybe give you a start.

[30:32] - Chuck Carpenter: It does not respond well to being stack specific too, because that was like initially kind of failed. It was like two out of three of them. I said oh, I want it, I don’t want it in react. Can you make it in rails? Can you do it in this, whatever? And they’re like they do rails and then put react inside of it. Yeah, no, it just was like I don’t have enough documentation on rails, but I’ll create it for you in nextjs.

[30:58] - Robbie Wagner: You know, like all the yeah, I mean, the internet has plenty of rails, documentation and it’s super opinionated, so I don’t know why it couldn’t figure that out, but because it didn’t want to go.

[31:06] - Chuck Carpenter: It doesn’t go search the internet at that time. It goes on based on what it was trained and it’s being trained in yeah, the most common things, and this is why we might drown and react at some point, because they’re trying to put it on the server, they’re making it configuration, they’ll make it anything. Yep, I’ve heard react runs yaml.

[31:23] - Robbie Wagner: Now that’s where you do your components yeah, that’s it, you do components.

[31:27] - Chuck Carpenter: you do your components. Yeah, that’s it, you do components. You do all of your infrastructure in React components. How about that? Somebody’s thought of that and tried it, I’m sure.

[31:36] - Robbie Wagner: Yeah, bablconfigreactjs.

[31:40] - Chuck Carpenter: I want all my config files now in React, just everything in React, your routers in React, everything’s in React.

[31:48] - Robbie Wagner: It actually prints out a web page that displays the text on canvas, uses a ocular recognition pattern to grab that config and then puts it into the program I think that’s reasonable.

[32:03] - Chuck Carpenter: There you go, all, and that’s all you ever needed to know yeah I can’t wait until database structures are done in React. We also need that.

[32:10] - Robbie Wagner: Yeah. So I do want to take a step back to tools for a second. I meant to mention have you seen the newest warp news? No, so warp 2.0, I believe is what they called it, I don’t know is out. It is no longer billed as a terminal, it is a agentic development environment or something like that. Let’s see what did they say it was? Yeah, that’s what they said it was. So it’s like all for building tons of agents and having them all just code for you all day, basically. So I have not tried the new version yet, but I still need to build a bunch of things that I never built. So I’m going to do that sometime and try it. I’m going to try warp, windsurf and cloud code and see what gives me the best.

[32:56] - Chuck Carpenter: Do you think Ben’s done a whiteboard on this yet? On the new stuff, I don’t know.

[32:59] - Robbie Wagner: I don’t know how long it takes him to do that. I feel like it would take forever, but maybe he’s got it down to a science, yeah.

[33:10] - Chuck Carpenter: I’m sure there’s a combination of both more work than you think, but also he’s efficient, so it’s a little of both. He works there. He could you know he’s got some inside baseball figure it out. Yeah, okay, well, tbd on that. Content from robbie the wagner on warp 2.0 yeah, his brain is warped. All right, I’m going to address this now. So I have a problem going out for food and paying to also do the rest of the preparation work right? I don’t like fajitas, because there’s just tacos you didn’t put together for me. I don’t like a wedge salad, because it’s just a salad where you didn’t cut it up for me.

[33:45] - Robbie Wagner: But what about, like, the personal preference to the amount of stuff? Like, if you have fajitas, you could put the exact amount of meat, exact amount of cheese, like whatever you want, on there to have the perfect flavor, whereas tacos could be hit or miss? Now I guess you would argue if your chef was good enough, they would know the right combinations and just do it right.

[34:05] - Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. Or if it’s like street tacos a lot of times you’re putting on your own toppings or whatever, if you want, or you’re adding more. So, yeah, I don’t know, I don’t subscribe to that. I don’t. I don’t think that like and it’s not like fajitas are like, oh well, here’s the cheaper option. No, we bring it out on a sizzling skillet and all of a sudden it’s like a $20 entree, like, I don’t know was gonna say it is weirdly more expensive.

[34:31] - Robbie Wagner: I didn’t even think about that, because if you got steak tacos it’d be like 15 bucks, and if it’s fajitas it’s 25 bucks and it’s like the same.

[34:37] - Chuck Carpenter: So yeah, and so I don’t get it. But you know, because it’s on a sizzling skillet. I guess presentation is everything. They’ve really fooled us. That’s why this doesn’t exist in mexico. They’re like, no, just put it together, what do you mean? So korean barbecue kind of has this same connotation. Korean barbecue is like the korean version of fondue in some ways, or maybe fondue is like the white person version of korean barbecue. I don’t know. But like you get the meats and stuff on a plate and you like put it in its cooking receptacle or on it and you make your own shit yeah, well, okay.

[35:13] - Robbie Wagner: So I have only been to korean barbecue places in la, so perhaps I’ve been to better ones, but they they’re like, are very hands-on. Like you get a waigu combo lots of different cuts of like waigu and they put it on there for you. And then they come back occasionally to like they don’t want to let you fuck it up. Like they make sure if you’re trying to cook it too long, they’re like no, no, here you go, it’s ready to eat. So it’s like they. There’s a like, an air of you could do it yourself if you want, but it’s like they’re doing it for you.

[35:46] - Chuck Carpenter: Basically, I’ve been to places in la, but I went to places in la where korean people go and so they let you do your own shit like you’re in charge, because they’re like you know what you’re doing. I don’t know what I’m doing, and I was with people who did, of course, so that was kind of part of it.

[36:01] - Robbie Wagner: Well, I was with people that were korean and both like we went to a couple korean barbecue places and then a korean I don’t know what they call them, but it was like a Korean pub food kind of thing. They have like the big pot of soup, and like they also had grills, but they weren’t built into the table. They like brought grills and put them on the table, stuff like that. And like the people there still were very hands-on, maybe because there were like enough people that weren’t Korean there that they were like but yeah, maybe that could be, um, I don’t know, but like when they help a little, I think it works out great because, yeah, I don’t know what I’m doing.

[36:35] - Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, I’m okay with like teppanyaki or whatever, where they’re like cooking it in front of me, like that’s fine I’m not doing the work. They came and like cooked it in front of me. I’d be okay with that, but if I got to do the work, then I’m annoyed why I’m at a restaurant.

[36:49] - Robbie Wagner: This is at home it’s kind of similar to like korean barbecue and japanese barbecue. From my experience it’s like you grill the meat on the thing in the table and then it’s like it kind of doesn’t have sauce, but then you like put you pick a sauce, or like you pick some salt, or like like you’re, you’re then manually seasoning it after. That’s more work.

[37:10] - Chuck Carpenter: Like the whole thing, where it’s like no, just tell me how I should have it. What is good, what? What tastes good? Give me that. Yeah, that’s why I’m here, because you’ve made all those choices, you accept the responsibility they’re gonna be like oh you fucked it up. You put too much salt on like well, you don’t put this in my hands the japanese barbecue place is caitlin’s favorite restaurant, though.

[37:29] - Robbie Wagner: They have these big uh king oyster mushrooms and like a really good sauce and she’ll just get like plates and plates of those and just eat them forever.

[37:37] - Chuck Carpenter: I know why you’re poor, so it is not cheap yeah yeah, yeah, I don’t know if I’ve been to korean barbecue, but I’ve been to a korean or, I’m sorry, a japanese steakhouse. There is a place that we like, that it’s like.

[37:51] - Robbie Wagner: Well, actually, I went there with you, roco accor, and they had like the sushi bar and all that fancy stuff and then they had the like you don’t cook it yourself.

[37:58] - Chuck Carpenter: You do not cook it yourself, they bring it to you as intended.

[38:01] - Robbie Wagner: Can you imagine if they had a do-it-yourself sushi and how much people would fuck that up and get sick? A lot, a lot would be pretty bad.

[38:08] - Chuck Carpenter: You know, what’s funny is, I do like conveyor belt sushi, though I think like, yeah, that’s, that’s kind of fun, did I tell you, my realization was sushi.

[38:17] - Robbie Wagner: I don’t know if we’ve talked about sushi. Too much sushi.

[38:20] - Chuck Carpenter: No, go ahead I’ll tell you what that means in a second yeah.

[38:25] - Robbie Wagner: So I always, like, had tried various rolls of sushi, like stuff that has like avocado and mayo and stuff that I hate was like this is, this is mid. I don’t see why people love sushi. And then I had sashimi and I was like this is bomb. Why did no one tell me this is the good one? Like why are people fuck with these stupid rolls?

[38:47] - Chuck Carpenter: like exactly because they’re afraid of real sushi. Well, I have one car now.

[38:54] - Robbie Wagner: I sold all cars, uh except when you’re not going to live here.

[38:58] - Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, I’m not going to live here, I don’t need those cars. And then, uh, eventually we’ll sell that car too. Oh, living situation is askew, but is what it is. Did you get your visa figured out? I have another appointment at the consulate, so I fixed the problems that they said initially that I had. So I guess, as long as they’re in a good mood, they’ll accept it this time. But regardless, I have a flight to Italy and I’ll be going and just starting the clock and figuring it out.

[39:28] - Robbie Wagner: Okay, we’re going to say have you tried walking in and like giving them a firm handshake with a benjamin in there and being like, hey, I would like to, uh, get there please I wish that was that easy.

[39:39] - Chuck Carpenter: But when you go to the consulate in la by the way, I have to go to la because that’s what covers my region get some korean barbecue while you’re there. Yeah, there you go. Indeed. Yeah, I got a bunch of ramen last time, so I’ll get some korean barbecue time. I got a ramen that was brothless. It was very interesting.

[39:55] - Robbie Wagner: I forget what it’s called so noodles then.

[39:57] - Chuck Carpenter: It was like the whole mix and they gave you two soft-boiled eggs and they had this like some vinegar too, and it was this whole thing where it was like break apart the eggs and you get the yolk and you mix that together and then you eat half of it. And then you get the yolk and you mix that together and then you eat half of it and then you pour the vinegar on and then you eat the rest there and then at the end they have a rice ball. You put that in and that soaks up the rest of the sauce. It actually was very interesting. I don’t know if I would like get that every time, but I would say like worth trying for sure. I’ll look up the name of that and I’ll pass that out to listeners, but anyway, so you know you have to go through like security to get into the thing and then they’re behind glass and you’re like it’s like you’re at the bank or something like where you’re going to rob them and you’re within this building at the top floor and you went through security already and you pass documents under like a little glass thing. So I don’t know. So I don’t think a hundo could accompany that, but I could accidentally leave one on top of the oh did you know, yeah, I also don’t yeah exactly welcome, so andiamo, yeah for sure? So, yeah, that’s where all that’s at, but I have an apartment there I’m paying for, which is why I’m staying in tucson already yep, because the first one didn’t get accepted, and so here we are so there was a couple of things that was like they were very small. It was that like, basically, it was that I hadn’t been in my current position for six months yet, even though I would be by the day I stepped in the country. Doesn’t matter, it applied on the day that I give them documents, not the day I start the visa, which is is confusing, but whatever. And the second thing was a little bit of like off dates in terms of like you have to pay for international insurance before you go apply also, and my international insurance started July 1st and it actually needed to start the 6th, the day I was going to enter the country and cover for 365 days. So there was a five-day gap there. So they said, no, you have to come back.

[41:56] - Robbie Wagner: And it’s really hard to get an appointment, so here I am so what if you, like, are unemployed but independently wealthy, like that’s a different visa.

[42:05] - Chuck Carpenter: That’s like you have to prove all that income stuff, like people do it when they’re on retirement, for example. There’s like we’re tired so what?

[42:12] - Robbie Wagner: they just want to make sure they’re not letting like freeloaders in, or yeah, basically okay and the at the consulate.

[42:18] - Chuck Carpenter: They’re just like. This is how I interpret the rules, so that’s what I want to see, you know there’s no convincing me, it’s just this okay yeah, I had no idea all the red tape.

[42:28] - Robbie Wagner: But yeah, you can be there for like what 90 days with nothing, right? So?

[42:31] - Chuck Carpenter: so we’re gonna go on that and kind of figure it out from there, even if they say, nah, one more time, then we’re gonna go and get started.

[42:39] - Robbie Wagner: And then what’s the cool down period like? If you go for 90 days and for some reason you had to come back, could you go back like a week later and do another 90?

[42:46] - Chuck Carpenter: days or like. Basically it’s you can stay 90 days every six months. So it’s 180 days every year, kind of. So not not ideal, yeah, so if you did like a month back and forth, you can kind of do this bouncing and all that other stuff, but for the kids won’t be great, so no, yeah, no, I wouldn’t recommend that.

[43:03] - Robbie Wagner: I was just curious. We’ll figure that out. I’ve uh. The twins are almost two months old now and it has been a lot. At first I was like, well, I mean at very, very first they just sleep for like the first week, so it’s like it’s not hard, this is fine. And then they start to not do that. They had their days and nights mixed up. That was hard. And then they like more recently they have acid reflux or something Like when they eat, they like get really upset so it takes them like an hour to drinkitional medicine type of person and it’s like it sounds fake because you take your kid in and she just like you know, touches them in a few spots and she’s like they’re better. And you’re like this, this ain’t real. But we did it with finn because he had like um, he would only turn his head to one side and he had like a big lump on his neck and like the traditional doctors were like you need six months of pt and you’re gonna have to keep like moving his head around to get this to go away. We took him to one appointment. They’re gone. So I was like okay, voodoo lady knows her shit. So we took the, the twins, there because supposedly she can help with acid reflux. They went like a couple days ago and it takes a few days, so I’m waiting to see if it’s going to help. I will report back if it goes away. But it’s like she, when we went back she was like oh yeah, I’m glad you came back. Like I remember your your first child and like you know most people she never hears from again and she doesn’t know if that means it worked or they think she’s full of shit and like doing fake stuff. Like no, we know it worked, so definitely. That’s why we didn’t come back because it worked yeah, yeah, so that’s what we’re doing, and we do have a new schedule. That’s working really well, though. I stay up until midnight and feed both the twins for like an hour and go to bed and I sleep from 1 to 7. And Caitlin wakes up at 4 when they need to eat then and is just up at 5 when they’re done eating. I got six and a half hours of sleep last night, which is the most I’ve gotten in like since they’ve been born, and I’m like, fuck, yeah, this schedule is good.

[45:15] - Chuck Carpenter: You can live with that.

[45:15] - Robbie Wagner: You can get through that for sure.

[45:26] - Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, so I think we’ve got it. We got a good plan, and of course they’ll change everything they do within the next month, so we’ll have to reevaluate, but for now we got a good schedule. Nice Well, best of luck to you. That’s what I can say. Thanks. I have one more question there and then I’m going to need to wrap up. But so you mentioned working out and I have been very annoyed with you because I’ll see, like every day, robbie just finished a workout, robbie just finished a seven day streak and I’m like, fuck you, you should not be doing that right now. Well, so I found the hack.

[45:53] - Robbie Wagner: The hack is I have dinner and then Finn wants to work out with me. So he’s like, can we work out now? Like, what’s after dinner? Can we work out? I’m like sure, like, and that kind of forces me to do it too, because I would have just said, fuck, I don’t need to work out. So he wants to do it and he like plays, like he does all his fake workouts, he makes up his own routine. He’s like I’m watching my class over here and I’m like doing the Peloton class on the TV. He’s like pretending to do his own and stuff, and so it’s been great and it like it’s a. You know, it occupies him for 30 minutes and I get to do a workout. So that’s why I’ve been so consistent with it. It’s been too consistent. I’m like so sore I’m taking a rest day today, but yeah, I’ve been on a pretty decent streak, so I’m going to keep trying to do that. Get the kids involved.

[46:38] - Chuck Carpenter: That’s it, that’s I think key advice.

[46:41] - Robbie Wagner: Yeah, like, if you have babies, I’ve seen I haven’t tried this, but I’ve seen like people will like use them for squats, like they weight or like you know you can. You can always do something with the family. Once caitlin is able to like do more workouts again, I think we’re gonna do both of us and finn and try to put the like the babies up for a nap or whatever and uh, so get the whole family involved, perfect that’s yeah that’s good.

[47:06] - Chuck Carpenter: That’s, uh, the most valuable thing you’ve ever said what?

[47:12] - Robbie Wagner: what about ht HTML as a programming?

[47:14] - Chuck Carpenter: language. That’s not valuable You’re just going to make more arguments. This one, this works. I think people can buy into that Cool.

[47:19] - Robbie Wagner: Yeah.

[47:20] - Chuck Carpenter: Well, all right. Is there anything you want to plug, or where can people find you on the internet? They?

[47:25] - Robbie Wagner: can find me at Robbie the Wagner, everywhere. I was going to have a joke and I couldn’t think of something quick enough because I’m not smart.

[47:34] - Chuck Carpenter: So you’ll work on it Baby steps by 250, you’ll have a joke.

[47:38] - Robbie Wagner: Yes, Perfect, all right. Thanks everyone for listening and we’ll catch you next time.

[47:45] - Outro: You’ve been watching Whiskey Web and Whatnot. Recorded in front of a live studio audience. What the fuck are you talking about, Chuck? Enjoyed the show? Subscribe. You know, people don’t pay attention to these, right? Head to whiskey.fund for merchant to join our Discord server. I’m serious, it’s like 2% of people who actually click these links. And don’t forget to leave us a five star review and tell your friends about the show. All right, dude, I’m outta here. Still got it.