162: Developer Communities, Career Growth, and Front-End Hot Takes with Madison Kanna

[00:00:00] Intro: Welcome to Syntax. Welcome to a brand new episode of the Front End Happy Hour podcast. Welcome to this week’s JS Party. Live from Ship Shape Studios, this is Whiskey Web and Whatnot. With your hosts, Robbie the Wagner, and me, Charles William Carpenter III. That’s right Charles. We drink whiskey and talk about web development.

I mean, it’s all in the name. It’s not that deep. This is Whiskey Web and Whatnot. Do not adjust your set.

[00:00:36] Promo: Hey everyone. We want to invite you to join us at All Things Open. All Things Open is the largest open source tech web conference on the US East Coast. It’s hosted annually in the heart of Research Triangle Park in downtown Raleigh, North Carolina. Target audiences include developers, engineers. Decision makers and open source [00:01:00] community members and anyone else involved with open source software. 4,000 to 5,000 people from all over the world are expected in October. We’re gonna be there. More information can be found online at 2024.allthingsopen.org. I really hope I don’t have to spell that for you.

[00:01:19] Robbie Wagner: Hey, what’s going on everybody? Welcome to another edition of it’s Only Monday and we’re drinking hard liquor already. With your hosts, RobbieTheWagner, and Charles William Carpenter III.

[00:01:30] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, it’s uh, it’s that kind of Monday though, a little bit. I don’t know why. It just

[00:01:34] Robbie Wagner: It is. It is. We have a

[00:01:37] Chuck Carpenter: us Madison.

[00:01:38] Robbie Wagner: You were saying the same thing. Introducing Madison. Hey Madison, do you want to give the folks at home a few sentences about who you are and what you do?

[00:01:45] Madison Kanna: Sure. I’m Madison. Super excited to be here today. Any excuse to drink? No, I’m just kidding. Um, I’m probably most well known online from hosting the same code book club, which I [00:02:00] started four or five years ago now. It’s been a while, which is doing book clubs and accountability groups for developers online.

And yeah, I also work as a developer and very excited for my drink.

[00:02:11] Chuck Carpenter: Mm-Hmm.

[00:02:11] Robbie Wagner: Nice.

Nice.

[00:02:13] Chuck Carpenter: I mean, given that, I don’t want you to have to wait any longer. Maybe we could just get to that. I do wanna talk more about code book club

[00:02:21] Robbie Wagner: Yes. We’ll come back to that.

[00:02:22] Chuck Carpenter: but Okay. Uh, this is my part of the job. So today we’re having the smoke wagon, straight bourbon whiskey. It is 92,

[00:02:30] Robbie Wagner: your accent, Chuck.

[00:02:31] Chuck Carpenter: uh, straight bourbon whiskey.

Kind of like this. I, you know, I never really had that accent or at least I got rid of it once I hit my twenties and, uh, got out of Maysville, Kentucky. No, that’s all I’ll lie. Sorry. Smoke wagon, straight bourbon whiskey. Uh, 92.5 proof. It is not age stated, but we know that means it has to be at least four years old.

It mash bill of 60% corn, 36% rye, and then 4% malted barley. Yes. And a pretty bottle. I think it’s got a nice, like, look [00:03:00] decorative. This one would be good. It’s uh, by, what is it, h and c distilling Las Vegas. And I remember the first time I saw this years ago, I was like, I don’t know Vegas. Can they do whiskey?

I’m, I’m a, I’m afraid of what’s in here, but I, I have a feeling this is gonna gonna be a pleasant one. And Madison already drinks at hers. I just wanna say that like she got in

[00:03:19] Madison Kanna: Oh, awkward. What if it was like this mu, what if it was down to here? And I was like, oh, it started this morning just working. And

[00:03:26] Chuck Carpenter: I would’ve invited you on as a permanent co-host because I would’ve been like, that’s the vibe.

[00:03:31] Madison Kanna: I did do that. I just, I poured it back with water. You know the trick. Can you just fill it up with water again?

[00:03:35] Chuck Carpenter: Did you used to do that to your parents at any point?

[00:03:38] Madison Kanna: I do think I did that at least once. Yeah. Did you guys do that?

[00:03:42] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. Well, I did that at like a friend’s parents’ house. Like I used to like, oh, have a sleepover at Jimmy’s house. And then we’d drink some of the booze.

[00:03:50] Robbie Wagner: Jimmy’s house, is that his real name?

[00:03:52] Chuck Carpenter: that really was his name, my best friend in like. Late grade school slash early middle school-ish times. This is [00:04:00] very telling to when I had my first drink. My parents weren’t very good. I’m just gonna say that. So

[00:04:06] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. Back in pre-K uh, you, you guys had a

little

[00:04:10] Chuck Carpenter: they’re not, and I say was, I mean, they’re not dead. Just to me. That’s all. Uh, whoa. Whoa. Just kidding. I make a lot of jokes that are awkward. Yeah. I think I was like 12. First time I like tried some drink from the liquor cabinet and then we were like, what’s this? And you know, you use some of it and then you’re like, uh, we don’t wanna get in trouble.

Water. Water will be

[00:04:30] Robbie Wagner: Yeah.

[00:04:30] Chuck Carpenter: So it’s an old

[00:04:31] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. One of my friends, uh, kept his liquor in the freezer and we refilled it with water and it, he came over and it was frozen, and we were like, oh, yeah. Uh, that actually happens with really shitty whiskey. Or like vodka sometimes, like,

you know, if you put it in the freezer, it’ll just freeze. Like, oh, that makes sense.

[00:04:49] Chuck Carpenter: And he bought it well, and now he knows he is very upset with you, so

[00:04:53] Robbie Wagner: Well, he, he knew already, but yeah.

[00:04:56] Chuck Carpenter: All righty. So let’s give it a sniff. We’ll give it a taste, give it a

[00:04:59] Robbie Wagner: Sniffy [00:05:00] sniff.

[00:05:00] Madison Kanna: Grab my glass.

[00:05:01] Chuck Carpenter: Hmm. It’s actually very mild on the nose. I want to say a little toffee. Possibly.

[00:05:08] Madison Kanna: Ooh, toffee.

[00:05:08] Chuck Carpenter: dry Fruit

[00:05:10] Robbie Wagner: No, no,

[00:05:11] Chuck Carpenter: Robbie. Robbie’s a big

[00:05:12] Robbie Wagner: I’m being serious.

[00:05:13] Chuck Carpenter: Okay. I can’t even really remember what dragon fruit smells like. I know I’ve had it. It’s tasty. It’s good, but like, what

[00:05:19] Madison Kanna: can’t remember either.

[00:05:21] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, I don’t know. I’ve never had, I don’t think like a, the fruit itself, I’ve had it in like a smoothie or whatever,

[00:05:29] Chuck Carpenter: yeah. So you have no idea. How do you know what it smells like from that? The smoothie mix.

[00:05:34] Robbie Wagner: it evokes dragon fruit memories. I don’t know.

[00:05:37] Chuck Carpenter: Okay. So,

[00:05:38] Madison Kanna: fancy Robbie. It folks. Dragonfly memories. Wow. It’s be, that was beautiful.

[00:05:43] Robbie Wagner: Yeah.

[00:05:43] Madison Kanna: a Taylor Swift lyric or something.

[00:05:45] Robbie Wagner: Yeah.

[00:05:46] Chuck Carpenter: He’s, uh, yeah. Secretly he helps, uh, ghost write one of our songs. You didn’t know that, but

[00:05:51] Madison Kanna: I love it.

[00:05:52] Chuck Carpenter: Mm mm-Hmm mm-Hmm. Priming the palate a little bit. Oh, okay. It’s got a little spiciness up front [00:06:00] and then very smooth in the finish.

I’m glad you like it. This is good that I didn’t send you something that you’re like, this is

[00:06:07] Robbie Wagner: For being called smoke wagon. It’s not very smoky.

[00:06:09] Chuck Carpenter: Not at all. And I, I’m, I’m happy about that. It’s not often. I want a smoky campfire flavor in my whiskey sometimes, but not often. No.

[00:06:19] Madison Kanna: to be in the, in a certain mood or a certain setting?

[00:06:22] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. Or like rightly prepared for it. There’s actually a whiskey that is called like campfire whiskey, and it’s, uh, I always forget the dis Oh, high West Distillery out of Utah.

And, you know, you are like, oh yeah, you’re kind of like primed for that setting. You’re out camping and you have a little bit of this like campfire smoke whiskey or, and honestly like have it with some s’mores. Awesome. Very cool. Like, that’s a nice setting, but like, if you just get some fancy scotch and it’s, it’s like whiffing in like a mouthful of cigar smoke or something on that one.

I, I don’t think that too much for me, but it’s all subjective, I guess.

[00:06:57] Madison Kanna: Sounds amazing.

[00:06:58] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. I’m getting a little, [00:07:00] little bit of the spice. I still feel like a little light light toffee or like heath bar in the middle.

[00:07:04] Madison Kanna: Oh, I love like. Coffee ice cream with heath bar in it. That does

[00:07:08] Chuck Carpenter: Ooh,

[00:07:08] Madison Kanna: me of that.

[00:07:10] Chuck Carpenter: ooh.

[00:07:10] Madison Kanna: That’s why I liked it. I knew there was a reason why.

[00:07:12] Chuck Carpenter: You were like, this is gonna work for me. Yeah. Okay. So since you’re an avid listener of the show, you understand that we have a very highly as stringent rating system of zero to eight tentacles, zero being horrible.

So probably not this one for you. Uh, four being middle of the road. It’s okay. Maybe I’d pick something else. Eight being amazing. I might crush this bottle tonight. Not, you know, which you maybe will or won’t. Robbie and I will sometimes like segment it up, but like, this is a bourbon. We’ll compare it to other bourbons, yada, yada, yada.

But you can do whatever you like. You can mix it with whiskeys. You can say compare to just libations in general, whatever you like. I like to make Robbie go first and set the tone.

[00:07:54] Madison Kanna: All right.

[00:07:55] Robbie Wagner: Sorry, I’m trying to read this chat. It seems like people are [00:08:00] debugging local storage, something with Riverside. I don’t know what’s happening, but anyway,

um,

[00:08:05] Chuck Carpenter: Huh? I like it.

[00:08:07] Robbie Wagner: this is pretty good. I would say I typically don’t like bourbons and I do like this one pretty well, so I’m gonna give it a six and a half, I think.

Pretty solid.

[00:08:19] Chuck Carpenter: Nice. Do you feel ready, Madison?

[00:08:23] Madison Kanna: Yes. I think this is 7.5. This is delicious. Really smooth. Love it. And I honestly don’t have that much to compare it to, but

[00:08:34] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. But have you had like Jack Daniels or Maker’s Mark or something like

[00:08:38] Madison Kanna: Yes, both

[00:08:40] Chuck Carpenter: Okay, so there you go. Yeah,

[00:08:42] Madison Kanna: morning I did a little sample.

[00:08:45] Chuck Carpenter: That’s how you start your mornings. Like uh, if anybody has a phone number or website for Madison, she might need some

[00:08:52] Madison Kanna: yeah.

Might need a little help. The code makes sense. Only to me. Just put up the pull request. It’s like, what is this?

[00:08:59] Chuck Carpenter: [00:09:00] super good. I’m senior. This is the

[00:09:01] Madison Kanna: I know

[00:09:02] Chuck Carpenter: it ‘cause I’m senior. Yeah, go read the fucking manual. I would love to hear you say that to someone and mean it at some point. Go read the fucking manual first. Okay. This is fine. Okay. Yeah, back to whiskey and us having it. Yeah, I do find it very tasty and like in comparison to like bourbons, like I said, well a Maker’s market is weed, but it’s like an approachable one that a lot of people have had.

Ba, buffalo Trace was another one. Ones that I would like rate as like solid ones that you can get all over the place. Yeah, so this is like their entry level version too, which is pretty cool that it is this good. I feel like it’s maybe normally somewhere around 40 bucks or so. So I think that is very approachable.

We That’s flavorful. Doesn’t kill you with burn or sweet or anything else. I really like it. I’m gonna give it a seven also. I’m like, yes, would have more of this. Would buy, again,

[00:09:53] Madison Kanna: Yeah.

[00:09:53] Chuck Carpenter: easy to share with friends. Lots of people are gonna like this.

[00:09:57] Madison Kanna: And the bottle again. It’s just so beautiful. I [00:10:00] mean, when this showed up, this made my week, you guys, I think he ruined me for other podcasts. You on a podcast, they don’t send you this. I mean, I don’t even wanna go on anything else now. Like, look at this. It’s beautiful. I got this in the mail. I was like, wow.

And you know, I was showing it to my friends and my family and everyone’s like, whoa, what podcasts are is this that you can, they’re like, I wanna, I wanna get on this. I mean, thank you so much.

[00:10:20] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. Oh yeah. Everybody wants on now. I know you actually started a few people like giving us shade for like what? You didn’t send us one. I absolutely did. It just, yeah. The payload folks, we absolutely sent James a bottle and the fact that he didn’t share it with his team sounds like his problem.

[00:10:36] Madison Kanna: That’s so funny. Yeah. The first I posted about you guys in the first comment I saw, I was like, someone was like, they never sent me one. What the heck? And I was just like, I’m sorry. I guess you’re not as cool as me. Like that sucks for you.

[00:10:47] Chuck Carpenter: really what it was. It was like, I was like, she streams at Nex conf. I mean, how do we get her on, what do we gotta buy and I’ll buy some whiskey that works out. Uh, no, it’s just on theme. [00:11:00] It would be cool though if like other podcasts kind of had a theme that they got you in on and then they like send you something as a result of that or a part of that.

[00:11:08] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, I’d like to be on the Gold Bars podcast if they’re sending

anything out.

[00:11:11] Chuck Carpenter: I’m really into gold bars. I usually, I don’t know, use those as paper weights for the paper that I print. I don’t, I don’t know what that would be. I was, it is funny you said you shared with friends and family and whatever else. I like to look up some additional information about our guests and whatever else.

So looking up Madison Kana online comes up with other Kanas and I was like, oh, they’re related. Definitely. Right. You have a sister or, or this other person with a similar last name on the internet just happened to kind of look like you.

[00:11:43] Madison Kanna: that’s my evil twin.

[00:11:44] Chuck Carpenter: Yes.

[00:11:45] Madison Kanna: Yeah, I have two sisters and my little sister is, is like a scientist basically. And my older sister is also developer like me,

[00:11:55] Chuck Carpenter: Very

[00:11:55] Madison Kanna: all look very much alike, so everyone thinks we’re twins. Yeah,

[00:11:58] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, fair enough. I wasn’t gonna [00:12:00] make any assumptions there. Aside from Probably related.

[00:12:03] Madison Kanna: yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, someone did say that the volume is very low for

[00:12:10] Robbie Wagner: you’re quiet, Chuck. You

gotta

[00:12:11] Chuck Carpenter: me? Okay.

[00:12:13] Madison Kanna: us. I’m like, should we

[00:12:13] Chuck Carpenter: No, no. I think that’s cool. That’s good. You can talk while I mess with this a little bit. I’ll bump it up

[00:12:19] Robbie Wagner: button and spin

[00:12:20] Chuck Carpenter: press the button. Okay. Press the pink button. Spread

[00:12:25] Robbie Wagner: on. Lemme see what I’m on.

[00:12:26] Chuck Carpenter: what do you, what about now? It’s louder for me, but it doesn’t mean it’s louder for

[00:12:30] Robbie Wagner: No, you

[00:12:31] Chuck Carpenter: Okay. Lemme hit.

[00:12:32] Robbie Wagner: button and then spin the knob until you’re at

like,

[00:12:35] Chuck Carpenter: Okay. More like this. There you go. I’m at 59. How about.

[00:12:40] Robbie Wagner: Oh, okay. Well then, yeah,

[00:12:41] Chuck Carpenter: Do you

[00:12:42] Robbie Wagner: Does sound a little

[00:12:43] Chuck Carpenter: it sound better?

[00:12:44] Robbie Wagner: Can people hear

[00:12:45] Chuck Carpenter: Chad? Does this work? This is kind of a fun thing for the, yeah. Isn’t that what people do? It’s, that’s better.

[00:12:52] Madison Kanna: Yay. Thank you. Thank you Cyrus. Yay.

[00:12:55] Chuck Carpenter: that, is that Jonathan Creamer?

[00:12:57] Robbie Wagner: I don’t know.

He didn’t give

[00:12:58] Chuck Carpenter: It is [00:13:00]

[00:13:00] Robbie Wagner: not to be confused with milk.

[00:13:02] Madison Kanna: hit, I thought you said Jonathan Kramer for a second, and I was like, his last name is Kramer. That’s beautiful.

[00:13:09] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. Yeah. Kramer like with a K? Yes. The Seinfeld jokes. I think that’s still fine. You know, the character separate the art from the artist and I think amazing. Good stuff there. You know, that guy got in trouble years ago at like comedy shows. Yes. He got canceled for a bit. Using some very offensive words

[00:13:31] Madison Kanna: Oh, I did not know about

[00:13:33] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, it’s a little, yeah.

You know, don’t meet your heroes. think that’s what that means. Uh, not to say that he was your hero, but that would be amazing if it

[00:13:42] Robbie Wagner: you know who my

hero

[00:13:43] Madison Kanna: is definitely my hero.

[00:13:44] Chuck Carpenter: Mm. I I got two different jokes there. Now, from what Robbie started to say, he just made me think, uh, Robbie’s hero is the Foo Fighters. There goes my hero.

[00:13:54] Robbie Wagner: no, it’s not

[00:13:56] Madison Kanna: Oh, the

[00:13:56] Robbie Wagner: my joke. I was trying to make a, a [00:14:00] joke segue and say that Tailwind is my hero

[00:14:03] Chuck Carpenter: Oh,

[00:14:04] Robbie Wagner: takes but.

[00:14:05] Chuck Carpenter: takes

[00:14:06] Madison Kanna: Oh yeah. I love, uh, you guys had a guest, I can’t remember his name, but I, it was really funny ‘cause you were saying Hot Takes and you said something like Tailwind versus CSS and he was just like, I don’t care. It was really funny. He was just like, whatever. I don’t, I don’t care.

[00:14:19] Chuck Carpenter: That’s a lot of them, to be honest. So that’s what’s funny about Hot Takes is that things will get crazy in the tech Twitter bubble and then like the rest of the world is kind of, I don’t know, I don’t care. Or I just do this, I’m not sure. There’s not like strong opinions in the same way that like people go nuts on tech Twitter.

[00:14:37] Madison Kanna: Isn’t that interesting? Because I’ll, I’ll be on tech Twitter probably too much, and you see people have an opinion about everything, every new thing that just came out. And sometimes I’ll just be sitting there and I’ll be like, I didn’t even bother to look into this thing and I don’t have any hot take.

And you start to wonder like, are these people just more passionate about it than me? Or you’re like, or they just have more time on their hands than I do to argue about at all.

[00:14:59] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. [00:15:00] I mean, maybe both. I, I don’t know.

[00:15:02] Robbie Wagner: They just like arguing in

[00:15:04] Chuck Carpenter: yeah. Like being perceived as an arguer. I don’t know. That doesn’t make for a good marriage, in my view. And so why would it make good for a, a good working relationship, Robbie? This is why we’re always fighting.

[00:15:15] Madison Kanna: Are you guys married?

[00:15:17] Chuck Carpenter: No,

[00:15:18] Madison Kanna: Just kidding. It just sounded for a

[00:15:20] Robbie Wagner: Hey, we could be, yeah.

[00:15:22] Chuck Carpenter: No, that’s a good, that’s a good joke. This is worth, worth asking. Not that there’s anything wrong with that, speaking a Seinfeld, not that

[00:15:27] Madison Kanna: Not that there’s anything wrong, but Oh, it’s a great episode.

[00:15:30] Chuck Carpenter: this is good. We can make Alright. Uh, generational references. I make pop culture references all the time that no one ever gets, so this is

[00:15:37] Robbie Wagner: You’re like this movie from 1847. You guys didn’t see it.

[00:15:40] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. This, this movie from 1988 and Robbie’s like, I wasn’t born yet and I was like, have you seen anything before birth? I’ve seen old movies. I don’t know. Anyway.

[00:15:50] Madison Kanna: I don’t understand any pop culture references ever. ‘cause when I was growing up homeschooled, we didn’t have like a TV at all. We didn’t have like the bunny ears. We didn’t have. [00:16:00] A VHS. We had a VHS player at one point, but long story short, so I miss all the pop culture references, like I’m still trying to catch up.

Yeah. But we didn’t have a TV at in the house at all. So I remember my parents would take us to like Hawaii. We would get to Hawaii, we’d be in the hotel room and my dad’s like, oh, let’s go snorkeling, kayaking. And all the kids wanted to do, I’m like eight years old. All I wanted to do, watch the tv, I would not leave.

Like we go to Disneyland, it’s like all I wanna do be at the tv. Like, oh my God, what is this cool thing? You know, Disney Channel. I just remember that like being in Hawaii and my dad being like, come on, it’s Hawaii, let’s go. And we’re like, we have this amazing

[00:16:34] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, we

[00:16:36] Madison Kanna: stay in all day.

[00:16:37] Chuck Carpenter: we have outside at home to hell with this. See,

[00:16:39] Robbie Wagner: Yeah.

[00:16:39] Chuck Carpenter: funny. It was like the opposite for me. I was a latchkey kid and like the TV was my nanny or caregiver at various times for sure.

[00:16:47] Madison Kanna: yeah,

[00:16:48] Chuck Carpenter: for better or worse, let’s do

[00:16:50] Robbie Wagner: now everyone’s kids are watched by iPads,

[00:16:53] Chuck Carpenter: Uh, yeah.

[00:16:54] Madison Kanna: Yeah. My older sister had her first baby like a year and a half ago, and she’s still being good about [00:17:00] no, you know, no screen time at all. So we’ll see if it lasts. ‘cause I think other people are like, no, once you have, you know, more kids later, it’s not gonna last anymore. But so far she’s doing good.

[00:17:10] Chuck Carpenter: that’s good. Yeah, I mean, when they’re really young, I think it’s a, it’s a great thing and it’s easier. My kids are five and eight and they have screens, but it’s, it’s very controlled. Like there’s ways, software wise, you can, like one hour a day max, but that doesn’t mean they get one hour every day kind of thing.

There’s, there’s kind of some middle ground. It’s really nice if you just want them to be quiet so you can, I don’t know, be like, oh, my wife’s out. I need to make dinner. Here you go. Disney plus it is, and then it’s very effective. So I don’t know.

[00:17:40] Robbie Wagner: Yeah.

You’re not wrong.

[00:17:42] Chuck Carpenter: The important question that I have is, do you use inferred types and types script or explicit types?

[00:17:48] Madison Kanna: I don’t know, like, do you mean at work or My personal preference?

[00:17:52] Chuck Carpenter: I’d say personal preference. Yeah. Not if teams force you into something else. That’s always whatever it is. But, uh, what would be your preference if you could [00:18:00] make the choice?

[00:18:00] Madison Kanna: I guess explicit. Yeah. At least that’s been my, that’s been my train of thought lately. I feel like, I dunno if you guys do this, but I have sometimes I, you know, you pick a philosophy or a style for a while and then you’re very adamant about it and then six months later you’re just like, I don’t know.

[00:18:17] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah,

[00:18:17] Robbie Wagner: Yeah.

[00:18:17] Madison Kanna: But I had like in my last team lead in my last job, like we weren’t using TypeScript for the longest time because he hated Microsoft and anything that came from Microsoft.

And so we, I was like looking into TypeScript for a while. I was kind of learning it on my own, but at work it was very much like I. No, no, no. We’re not gonna be using this like nothing. No TypeScript. And so I, we, it was like that battle at work basically. But I think from him for a while, I like thought it was bad.

Just like when you’re team lead. I looked up to him a lot and then I, you know, you start to explore more and you’re on, and I was just like, seems pretty great actually. But it was really funny. He just hated TypeScript and anything about it. It was just like so anti, and you know, Microsoft is the evil empire and never used that.

[00:18:58] Chuck Carpenter: Seriously though there, there [00:19:00] was that pervasiveness to a degree within like engineering, there was like one of my, not my first jobs, but I had a, a big job at a company that was deeply ingrained in like Microsoft Pay for Everything. So like all of our stuff was in T net and I was not a. Necessarily working on that too deeply, but I was doing a lot of the interface stuff associated with that.

And they all have the Windows computers and all the visual basic and all the stuff that you like forced to have to work in. And I just basically inherently hated like having all of those forced choices. And I knew how much money was getting dropped on these annual licenses and all this bullshit. I hate it.

Microsoft and my and and IE six and seven and eight made my life fucking horrible. And so like escaping a bunch of that felt like, ah, that’s amazing. But of course we’ve all come around since then and been shown the changes in the business obviously there, and or the fact that they’ve bought up everything we needed in our [00:20:00] lives to, you know, make a living.

So there’s that

[00:20:02] Robbie Wagner: Mm-Hmm. You take all that Windows money and you buy a bunch of cool stuff. We actually like,

[00:20:06] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, yeah. We all have windows if you like to game and outside of that, I don’t know.

[00:20:12] Madison Kanna: yeah.

[00:20:12] Robbie Wagner: yeah,

[00:20:13] Chuck Carpenter: but all the other parts have kind of worked.

[00:20:15] Robbie Wagner: one we just mentioned a minute ago, tailwind or vanilla? CSS.

[00:20:18] Chuck Carpenter: you go.

[00:20:19] Madison Kanna: Ooh, that is a tough one. Yeah, probably tailwinds. I mean, because I do think that you learn more CSS learning tailwinds. I feel like I became better at CSS. Once I started using tailwinds, I like not context switching as much it feels like as well. So yeah, I feel pretty team tailwinds. Yeah,

[00:20:35] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah,

[00:20:35] Robbie Wagner: Nice. Yeah. I think their docs are like way better than the CSS stocks

because stuff like, and maybe this is my fault for not researching more, but like the nset zero thing where you can like do top bottom right, left all zero with like one thing.

It’s like, oh, sweet. That’s like a tailwind utility that like did that for, no, that’s just built into CSS, so

I’m like, oh, okay.

[00:20:57] Chuck Carpenter: Maybe their docs are just better [00:21:00] organized.

[00:21:00] Robbie Wagner: I don’t know. They’re, they’re just prettier, I guess. You can like see them better, see what’s going on. Especially when you get into like spec docs or like crazy stuff. You’re just like, I’m not gonna read that. Like, condense it for me, please.

[00:21:12] Madison Kanna: Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. I really do feel like I learned a lot more Cs, like CI became more interested in CSS too when I started using talent, and it felt more fun and intriguing to learn. Absolutely. It sounds like you guys felt that way too.

[00:21:24] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah,

[00:21:25] Robbie Wagner: I’m Team Tailwind. Chuck

is team. Never write any

[00:21:28] Chuck Carpenter: that’s kind of where I landed. So

[00:21:30] Madison Kanna: a CSS hater?

[00:21:31] Chuck Carpenter: so I just kind of, okay, so I spent a lot of time in interfaces and I was a big advocate for the separation of concerns movement. Like, what was that called? It was called like, so you had semantic HTML, and it was like, stop having this like HTML soup with like, don’t use tables for layout use CSS to utilize all of that presentational stuff.

Pull your JavaScript out, don’t have like, uh, on click attributes and all this. So this was like coming out of my ni my [00:22:00] dotnet work, moving into more like media content and everything and separating all that stuff. And it was this big like web standards initiative that was like separate these things out.

It’s all soupy of course. Like we got into react and everything kind of regressed in so many ways. But aas, that’s when I was really into CSS is during this transitional time and some after like, oh, really working with the cascade and you can do some cool thing. I rem you know, when media queries first came out and we were working hard to actually have, instead of two separate sites from mobile and desktop, you actually can have things become more responsive.

And that was all kind of cool. And then I just got more and more into building apps and more business logic and all of that kind of stuff. And so coming back to interfaces. I mean, I respect the craft and I just felt like it was getting in my way and I don’t give a shit anymore. So it was like, tailwind makes this easy.

Great, I’ll do that. I did BIM and all these other systems you had to figure out or, you know, [00:23:00] styled components and just like 50 different ways for like, I don’t know, can I just make this look nice so I can work on the other part that I want to get to? And, uh, so I acquiesced in that way. So it’s not like I’m a CSS hater.

I just, I guess in a way with like over 20 years, I’m like, I don’t know. If you don’t like the way it is today, just wait till tomorrow because we’re gonna come up with some new bullshit way you’re supposed to do it. So

[00:23:22] Madison Kanna: Yeah, so you got a little less interested in all of the maybe like details on how it’s done or arguments how and more of just like, how can I build this and move on and make sure it’s good, but then go on.

[00:23:32] Chuck Carpenter: yeah, a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. Like big picture, full stack of things. In a way

[00:23:37] Madison Kanna: Yeah. I felt that way too.

[00:23:39] Chuck Carpenter: I can use this as the, this is good. Uh, how about get Rebase or get merge?

[00:23:46] Madison Kanna: Oh my gosh. This is one of those things I feel like I, yeah. I don’t know if I have like a hard stance on this one. What did your past cast say? You cracked me up. I was like, on a walk. He was like, I don’t, I don’t care. Care.

[00:23:57] Robbie Wagner: Everybody’s

pretty split, honestly,[00:24:00]

[00:24:00] Chuck Carpenter: I would say that like there’s no right answer of course, to any of these, so bear that in mind, other than Microsoft sucks. I mean, I’m sorry, John, Jonathan, sorry. No,

[00:24:09] Madison Kanna: There is a wrong answer actually. So I’m, I’m judging you guys. I’m watching to see what I,

[00:24:15] Robbie Wagner: yeah. No, I mean, I think the like hardcore. Old school programmers would say, you’ve got a rease.

But like, it doesn’t matter because like my whole reasoning behind doing it and like squashing and like doing all like to have a nice clean history,

but then think about how often you have to even look at that. Like maybe a couple times a year you have fuck up hard enough to like actually go look at that and be like, oh, like, so it doesn’t matter other than like just a thing to argue about and be like, that’s not clean enough for me. Like, let’s do this a different way.

[00:24:47] Chuck Carpenter: Mm.

[00:24:47] Madison Kanna: Yeah, I mean I do feel like I used to be like, oh no, rebasing. ‘cause I feel like I would mess up my Reba. Like I, you know, I would mess everything up. But then once I like learned, like understood how it worked better, I was like, oh yeah, [00:25:00] nice clean. It’s pretty easy to do, like feel. Yeah. Probably more team Reba.

Yeah,

[00:25:05] Robbie Wagner: yeah.

If you like rewrite history and drop a ton of stuff you weren’t supposed to, you’re like, oh, I don’t like Rebase anymore. But,

[00:25:12] Madison Kanna: Yeah. I’ve used it wrong. I used it poorly sometimes and, and then I’m like, oh, I hate this tool. I’m like, oh, well I, yeah. I used it incorrectly and messed everything

[00:25:19] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, it’s probably part of it.

[00:25:21] Madison Kanna: Someone said it’s easier to cherry book. Yeah, I could see that

[00:25:23] Robbie Wagner: Mm-Hmm.

[00:25:24] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, exactly. Interactive rebate is super powerful and I really like that. And I learned get at the times where like senior engineers weren’t incentivized to help you necessarily. And so I, you know, you would get told, oh, did you uh, look at this, go read the fucking manual and come back to me with a better question.

For better or worse, that’s not necessarily like the way things work in teams anymore. And so I feel like it’s sort of like a hard earned stripe for me to say I can use rebase and that’s why I prefer it just ‘cause I had to earn that shit and do very terrible things [00:26:00] probably a couple of years before I figured it out.

[00:26:03] Madison Kanna: I love that. Yeah. It’s kind of a delicate balance between, you don’t wanna hold someone’s hand, but you also don’t necessarily wanna tell them just like, go away completely.

[00:26:11] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[00:26:13] Madison Kanna: the manual.

[00:26:14] Chuck Carpenter: kind of like neck beard eating, funions.

[00:26:17] Robbie Wagner: will learn regardless of whether you teach them or they go read it or whatever. But there’s people that just wanna be fed all of it and don’t learn anything.

[00:26:25] Madison Kanna: Yeah.

[00:26:25] Chuck Carpenter: I feel like that is the path of gaining experience is not necessarily memorizing and having all the answers per se, but like learning how to find the answers and then also being able to look back into some of the experiences that you’ve had and how will that apply to this next set of problems

[00:26:42] Madison Kanna: Yeah. What do you think about like in terms of, so you’re trying to find the answer and, but then now we have like chat GBT, it can kind of give you the answers in a way. What do you think about that?

[00:26:52] Robbie Wagner: Oh, I, I use it, but it’s, it’s too confident.

Like when it does it right, I’m happy with it. I’m like, wow. Like, okay, you want to, I need a [00:27:00] Reg X for something or like, you know, stuff that I never really learned that, well, it’s great at that, but then I’m like, all right, do this, like CSS, and it’s like, got you.

And it like, gives me all this CSS and I put it in, it just doesn’t do anything. And I’m like, but you just said this works. Have you like tried it? It’s like, oh, you’re right, I’m sorry. Like, here’s the actual way. And it’s like, no, it still doesn’t work.

[00:27:18] Chuck Carpenter: I mean, I,

[00:27:19] Robbie Wagner: Like I,

[00:27:19] Chuck Carpenter: I, it’s faster than Google and faster than like Stack Overflow, which

[00:27:23] Robbie Wagner: Yeah.

for finding answers more so than executable code. It is good for finding answers.

[00:27:30] Madison Kanna: You are right though it, it can be wrong sometimes. And I love how when it’s wrong, it’s like, sorry, I got confused. Like can you imagine you just like make a big mistake, your team, like, instead of apologizing, you’re like, sorry, I got confused.

[00:27:42] Chuck Carpenter: So here’s, here’s a good one. So then Copilot or Claude?

[00:27:46] Madison Kanna: So I’ve played around with both of them, but recently I haven’t because maybe like also a hot take. I started using them for a while and then I stopped using anything because I was a little worried that I was getting like reliant on using them. So [00:28:00] for now I’m paused and now I’m like, I’m probably doing the one thing that you’re supposed to be doing, which is like, I’m not doing that.

Which is keeping up with the things now. And now everyone’s like, oh, cursor. But I’m just doing the opposite. Like I just started reading like an assembly book, guys, like people and like are you are like saying English and just like, you know, using these AI tools and I’m over here like handwriting assembly to myself.

Like I’m not doing the the proper things in 2024 right now.

[00:28:25] Chuck Carpenter: I think that’s subjective, and I think we can approach that here in some of the things we want talk about today, because I’m going

[00:28:30] Robbie Wagner: that’s a hot take that you should learn assembly before you learn ai.

[00:28:35] Madison Kanna: I absolutely think so. Yeah.

[00:28:37] Robbie Wagner: Know how the internals work.

[00:28:39] Madison Kanna: that’s my path right now. Yeah.

[00:28:41] Chuck Carpenter: I like it. I, I fully support that. I think that sounds awesome. I think that’s a smart move rather than being like, I don’t know, I want to get on the next JS Canary release and want to see what the path to, uh, 15 looks like,

[00:28:55] Robbie Wagner: There’s plenty of time for everyone to refactor their stuff every couple months. You don’t need to do [00:29:00] that.

[00:29:00] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah.

[00:29:00] Madison Kanna: Yeah. I think that has been this year, I know we talked about this a little bit, but I feel like I just got, I think I got some web development fatigue. I’m saying this on Whiskey web and whatnot, but I feel like I got some fatigue with trying to keep up with everything and I just tried to go to more to like foundational things that aren’t gonna change that will help me that.

Seemed more interesting in the moment, so I kind of like stopped keeping up with web development stuff quite as much as I used to. I feel like I got a little fatigued keeping up with everything and just went to other stuff, older stuff, basically. Yeah.

[00:29:32] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, there’s nothing wrong with that. I feel like going deeper on like JavaScript fundamentals or even like, you know, assembly like you were saying, or anything that’s like not changing is gonna give you a good foundation to learn all the new things as they do change. Because I feel like a lot of people just learn, react, and they don’t even know what JavaScript is

when they’re learning React.

And it’s like, okay, you kind of need to know ‘cause you’re gonna do stuff inside of your JSX or whatever that’s like, you know, actual JavaScript. [00:30:00] But yeah, it’s just, it’s a hard market I guess. So you just

gotta learn stuff fast.

[00:30:04] Madison Kanna: I felt like that. I felt like I, when I first started, I learned React and JavaScript and I feel like, I definitely felt like I was, you know, you’re working on this abstraction layer, but I wasn’t really understanding what was going on beneath. Which really irritated me. Like, I don’t like feeling that way.

You don’t, I don’t like feeling like I’m working on, which is kind of hard as a developer ‘cause on in many ways. Like you have to be working at some level of abstraction and you’re not supposed to go deeper, right? ‘cause then you never build anything.

[00:30:30] Chuck Carpenter: Hmm.

[00:30:32] Madison Kanna: So it’s a, it’s a tricky trade off.

[00:30:33] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, I think there’s a balance there, and I think it depends on what outcomes you’re looking at. Yeah, that’s an interesting thing because you both sort of touched on this is sort of, yeah, there are trends, there’s a bit of fomo, there’s like this and this happening, which is cool and exciting and all very validating to a degree, but the fundamentals are always the same at the core, which I think is pretty interesting about the whole deal.

I just finally started reading, sorry, [00:31:00] Carson, but I just finally started reading Hypermedia Systems, which is basically like talking about fundamentals of the internet and like

[00:31:06] Robbie Wagner: Is that about Intercooler or js?

[00:31:08] Chuck Carpenter: No, I mean it, so Intercooler or HTMX are HYPERMEDIA modifiers for HTML, for example, and they use JavaScript in order to allow hypermedia to happen because the only two hypermedia controllers that exist in browsers are anchors and form elements, and that’s it.

That’s the only thing that can go out and get from a hypermedia system, a hypermedia text response. Of course, we take these same tools and we. Use them to make interfaces and single page applications and do all this crazy stuff. Anyway, the fundamental bits of the web are about HTML, which we all use all the time, right?

And that’s stayed pretty consistent for a long time, like small nuances. But hypermedia controls have existed since the nineties, [00:32:00] which is a very interesting thing to think about. And then a hypermedia system just takes this control and says, go out and get me. Like the most basic thing is an anchor link, which sends a GET request to A URL.

It gets HTML in response, and the browser just takes you to that new page. Those are just links or whatever. But this is fundamentally the same thing for like 30 years or more. So I think that’s really interesting to say, and it’s still a prominent part of how we use the internet. So it’s like, of course you should learn some fundamentals of this because you never know.

People have done 20 layers of, of abstraction and taken a particular path. But what if just the fundamental offered you some other non abstracted way to accomplish your goal?

[00:32:43] Madison Kanna: That’s such a good point, but it seems like we don’t have that focus. We don’t have that focus on learning those fundamentals. Instead, it’s like the latest new shiniest thing, which is great. There’s people much smarter than me working on all these frameworks and tools. But yeah. It’s funny though. I feel like that’s not really a focus that we have.

You kind of have to come to that conclusion on [00:33:00] your own. I think especially if you’ve become a developer in the last like five or six or seven years, like me, I think that, yeah,

[00:33:07] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, I think it’s people just like over-engineering stuff too. Like it’s way

more fun to like to write like

15 insane hooks that people can’t. Understand then like know that you can use a like built-in input type range and build a range slider without custom building it. Or like, you know, it’s just not as fun to like use the tools as they were intended.

It’s way more fun to be like, Ooh, how can I like abstract it all and build it all custom. And I think there’s some of that and like people get blinded by just the fun part and then they don’t think about how could I maybe just use this like built in thing easier?

[00:33:44] Madison Kanna: Yeah, totally.

[00:33:45] CTA: This just in! Whiskey.fund is now open for all your merch needs. That’s right, Robbie. We’re hearing reports of hats, sweaters, and T-shirts, as well as a link to join our Discord server. What’s a [00:34:00] Discord server? Just read the prompter, man. Hit subscribe. Leave us a review on your favorite podcast app and tell your friends about our broadcast. It really does help us reach more people and keeps the show growing. All right, back to your regularly scheduled programming.

[00:34:18] Chuck Carpenter: If we’re gonna have a chat, I think we should address some of the questions there. Serious would like to know what age did you want to learn to code?

[00:34:24] Madison Kanna: Not until, yeah, it was like my early twenties, I guess. Yeah. Well, my older sister was working at a startup as a software developer in San Francisco, and I went to visit her and thought it sounded really exciting and fun. I mean, just San Francisco at that time, it was really exciting and yeah, kind of all went from there.

What about you guys?

[00:34:44] Robbie Wagner: Well, I used to build custom MySpace layouts when

MySpace was

[00:34:49] Madison Kanna: my space.

[00:34:50] Robbie Wagner: So that’s what got me into it. Like just basically HTL and CSS. I don’t think I really knew what JavaScript was then, but you could just, like MySpace was so like [00:35:00] insecure. You could just be like drop all the pieces of the page and whatever divs and stuff you want and you could just like move it all around.

And I was like, okay, cool. This is fun.

[00:35:09] Madison Kanna: I love that.

[00:35:10] Robbie Wagner: Yeah.

[00:35:11] Chuck Carpenter: For me it would also be in my, I’m gonna say my early twenties. I was a little bit inspired by my younger brother who used to make like geocity sites for his like online gaming stuff. So I learned a little bit of HTML out of that, but didn’t really do anything with it and lost in finding my own way.

At one point I, I got into building my own custom computers, so it’s funny that they shoot on Windows, but I definitely was trying to use it or whatever else at that time. Early two thousands for sure. And then that just naturally started getting to other facets of like computers and things. And I, it’s funny, I would say like the big springboard was I was working at a startup doing point to point internet connections and doing like marketing work for them.

But like I knew Photoshop, which, ‘cause I was [00:36:00] really big into photography and they were like, oh great, you can help us edit these graphic design files. So it was like graphic design and editing tables. Yeah, I would, I would say it’s probably like Photoshop three or something crazy and just getting a couple of books to figure out how to like slice a Photoshop file up so I can update a website with a bunch of like weird tables for alignment.

And then that was kind of the start of it.

[00:36:22] Madison Kanna: That’s so cool.

[00:36:23] Robbie Wagner: Yeah.

People don’t know how good they have it these days when you used

to slice Photoshop up and be like, oh, this looks dope. Love it. And then you would have like a screen that was like a little smaller and it would all just shit the bed and like not

look the same.

[00:36:36] Chuck Carpenter: My favorite was like where like a boss wants to make sure you have this rounded corner button and it also needs to be slightly responsive to the content in the button. And so you have to have this like Photoshop overlay where it’s like one part is like super long and then you have your end and it just kind of opens up to the whole thing.

And it’s just this weird background hack. Exactly. Hack. Thank you. [00:37:00] Serious. And it seriously was, it was like, and it would just be to have rounded corners. And this was all when I started also like getting into this web standards movement. And I was like, A button’s, a button. Why are you making it this picture?

And it’s not supposed to have rounded corners. And you know, you’d have these fights about it, but, uh, alas I needed a paycheck and so you make it work.

[00:37:18] Madison Kanna: Yeah.

[00:37:19] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. I don’t forget, where did we leave off

[00:37:21] Chuck Carpenter: Uh, letter cons if you still want to go down that path, but we could

[00:37:24] Robbie Wagner: Well, I don’t, we could

[00:37:25] Madison Kanna: off? The whiskey hit you as hard. No, I’m just kidding.

[00:37:29] Robbie Wagner: we could probably

[00:37:29] Madison Kanna: this. I was like, I have to be careful ‘cause I’m such a lightweight, I feel like because I have one drink, I’m like, woo. Like I don’t, I don’t

[00:37:35] Chuck Carpenter: the point. We’re trying to take the wheels off. Just so you know, you’re in the safety of your own home,

[00:37:41] Madison Kanna: Yeah.

[00:37:42] Chuck Carpenter: you want to have a little more, it kind of doesn’t matter. You know? I’ve definitely, well, we, we went through a thing with Prime one time where it was like two hours and we had five different samples, two plus ounces each, and we had them all, and I’m pretty sure we were all slurring words by the

[00:37:55] Madison Kanna: Oh my gosh. Love Prime. Wait, I, I think I listened to both of his episode. I didn’t finish [00:38:00] one of them. I think I made it

[00:38:01] Chuck Carpenter: probably the two hour one where we got

[00:38:02] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. That one’s very

[00:38:03] Madison Kanna: maybe I missed that. ‘cause I was like, I’m surprised how coherent everyone sounded like

[00:38:08] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, we can,

[00:38:09] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. Find, find

the two hour one. We get less coherent.

[00:38:13] Madison Kanna: Okay. I’m gonna go to that.

[00:38:15] Chuck Carpenter: yeah, it’s a good one. I think we, I think we get a little more like deep too. You start having drinks and you’re like, okay guys, lemme tell you, this is what I think about morals and porn

[00:38:27] Madison Kanna: is that supposed to be Prime? Okay.

[00:38:30] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, that’s, that’s, uh, I’m trying, I’m trying it, I’m working on it, you know, I’m not sure if it’s accurate

[00:38:35] Madison Kanna: my

[00:38:35] Robbie Wagner: You gotta work on the mustache though.

[00:38:37] Madison Kanna: like what, uh, react Miami was like, like live that. Honestly, those are some of my favorite. Ugh. I just, I, I tear up some of my favorite, you know, rants to hear.

[00:38:47] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, his rants about like morality and family and all that kind of stuff. It’s very, yeah, I think that’s the one. Okay. We don’t have to talk about him the whole time. Prime is not about you. I don’t, you know, but, uh, [00:39:00] of hi. His house buying experience. That’s really funny. You should, you should listen to

[00:39:04] Madison Kanna: Oh yeah,

[00:39:05] Robbie Wagner: Was that in the long one? I forget what was in

[00:39:07] Chuck Carpenter: I think it was in the long one and it talks about like, you know, the good old boy bought his house from, and they kind of had stuff still in there and Yeah,

[00:39:14] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, we, we won’t ruin it. Go

check it out.

[00:39:16] Chuck Carpenter: you gotta go, you gotta go listen to

[00:39:17] Madison Kanna: go check it out.

[00:39:18] Chuck Carpenter: we could use at least three more listens on that one, so we’re not giving it away. Uh, anyway.

[00:39:24] Madison Kanna: love that. Fun to go off topic like that, you know? I like

[00:39:28] Robbie Wagner: Yeah.

[00:39:28] Chuck Carpenter: that’s, this is what we’re doing. We’re drinking whiskey and we’re just, you know, we got some questions here, but we don’t really have to say any of them unless is there any of these hot takes, Robbie, that you want?

[00:39:38] Robbie Wagner: done with the hot takes. We’re 40 minutes in, we’re done with the hot

takes. Um, but let’s say, let’s talk a bit about your Code Book club. Tell us a little bit about that, how that started and how it’s going.

[00:39:50] Madison Kanna: Oh yeah. So I think it was right before the pan, a little before the pandemic, I was working remote and I realized that I really needed to. I wanted to, but also needed to [00:40:00] learn and study more. Then there was some book I wanted to read, and so I got together with two of my guy friends and we were like, we’re gonna start this book club, just coding book club, and every week we’ll meet up.

And then like, the day before it was supposed to start, they were both like, nah, we’re too, we’re too busy. Like wives, kids, like, sorry, just we’re out. And I was, I don’t have, you know, any of that. I was like, so I still wanted to do it. And I just remember like, okay, I’m gonna go on Twitter. And I had almost no followers at the time, but I was just like, maybe I could just tweet this into the void and see if anyone would wanna meet up on Zoom, just like some stranger would wanna do this book with me. And we’ve been Zoom bombed. We’ve gotten some talk about porn. I won’t get into it. I, I’ve, I’ve come on Zoom and I’ve seen things I never wanted to see. I’m like, you know that person, you’re every human’s beautiful. I did not wanna see that. Like, I didn’t want you on this club naked anyway. So, but anyway, I got some members and it all kind of went from there.

I got some members, people who came unclothed. Very, yeah. Making the book club sound bad now it’s,[00:41:00]

[00:41:01] Chuck Carpenter: So be careful with, uh, your book club and, you know, there’s some there, there’s some starting stumbles, but in general, I, I love the idea. I think learning together is nice. There’s a lot of positives around

[00:41:13] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. Do I need to read books to join?

[00:41:15] Chuck Carpenter: do have to read books.

[00:41:17] Madison Kanna: Do you know how to read Robbie or can you read after a few drinks?

[00:41:22] Robbie Wagner: I can read, I am, I don’t know what’s wrong with my brain, but I just like, if I read anything or sit in a

lecture or anything like that, I’m asleep very quickly. So I’m

just like,

[00:41:31] Chuck Carpenter: It’s all the

[00:41:32] Robbie Wagner: have a hard time reading.

[00:41:33] Chuck Carpenter: It’s all the carbs, it’s all the, it’s all the nachos that you eat, I think, or something of that.

[00:41:39] Madison Kanna: also do like, um, we kind of switch it up after a while. We were like, we need to do more projects. So we’ve done projects and stuff like that, or we’ve done, like, you guys probably hate this. We’ve done like lead coding. Everyone’s like, oh God, that’s awful. But we’ve done like,

[00:41:51] Robbie Wagner: a necessary

[00:41:52] Madison Kanna: lead code together.

Someone has to, you know, be alive, lead co. Put someone on the spot. So, you know, it’s not, it’s not fun sometimes, but [00:42:00] feels good.

[00:42:01] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah.

[00:42:01] Robbie Wagner: fun in an interview, so you might as well do it in not an interview to learn how

to do that somewhere.

[00:42:07] Chuck Carpenter: I could get down with it to be like, it’s like puzzles for geeks, right? Or whatever, like crossword puzzles, sudokus, all that kind of thing. Like in that way I think it’s kind of fun, like I’ve played around with it here and there or whatever else.

[00:42:18] Robbie Wagner: I think the time, the timing aspect and the people watching you aspect is

what makes it, ‘cause I do think they’re fun if, like, if you have infinite time and there’s no pressure for getting a job or whatever, they’re fun to complete.

But if it’s like, you’ve got 20 minutes and if you don’t do this like recursion just right, you don’t get this job and it’s like, oh

[00:42:38] Chuck Carpenter: Well you work for Amazon, so I don’t know that you can talk to two like you’re good at leak code

[00:42:44] Robbie Wagner: well, I, I was, I was for

[00:42:48] Chuck Carpenter: No, I think it’s a compliment.

[00:42:49] Robbie Wagner: it’s, I couldn’t

do it now. I couldn’t do it now. Like I, I learn it and then I’m like, don’t care. Like we’re, we’re

moving pixels around. I don’t need to write an algorithm.

[00:42:57] Madison Kanna: I feel like lead code gives computer [00:43:00] science in general kind of a bad name. ‘cause I remember when I was first starting out and some people were just like, vaguely, you’re like, as a self-talk developer, people say you should learn computer science. And then what does that mean? Like in this, I feel like in my bubble it meant learn lead code and get good at data structures and algorithms and pausing that and actually learning other computer science fundamentals is just so much more fun for me at least.

But it’s really interesting ‘cause I feel like that’s what people think when they think computer science. Like when you’re first getting started and you’re self taught, and then when you eventually go into it and you’re like, oh, there’s so many other amazing, exciting things beyond just LEAP code.

[00:43:35] Robbie Wagner: I think the whole algorithms part is like way overplayed, but I do think the lower level stuff can be fun. Like at school we did like build your own malic, like memory allocation

thing. Learn how that works. Like

[00:43:47] Madison Kanna: to do that. I could not build my own Malick yet, but I was trying to work on something like that.

[00:43:51] Chuck Carpenter: so.

[00:43:52] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. But like learning stuff like that where, or like we had a thing that was like the. There’s like a debugger bomb where you’re supposed to like debug this program that has like [00:44:00] errors and if you do it wrong and like let the debugger go all the way through, it blows up and you only get like 10 tries.

So it like teaches you to be really careful about debugging and stuff and like, like stuff like that I think is, is a lot more fun than just solve this algorithm challenge.

[00:44:16] Chuck Carpenter: I think exactly that. It’s funny because like lead code has been like a fang barrier for a long time, but that’s okay. ‘cause they were trying to recruit for certain type and whatever else, and one day Gmail like comes out of that process. So I respect that, but I think that like in my career for I, I would say like a good 15 years, I never had to think twice about any of that stuff.

I’m also self-taught, so it took that long path and whatever else

[00:44:42] Robbie Wagner: one time you needed combinant torics ‘cause

you went, Hey, what do you know

about

[00:44:48] Madison Kanna: what happens?

[00:44:48] Robbie Wagner: Torics?

[00:44:49] Chuck Carpenter: I was working at a startup and I basically had to come up with every potential combination of custom options entered in. And I was going [00:45:00] through a bunch of stuff with it. And then I started Googling as we do and it’s like, oh, this thing common Torics comes up and it’s a computer science thing. And then I started looking that up and I find that Robbie had, yeah, a GitHub package that did Combinator stuff for ember js or something.

And so I was like, so what do you know about this? ‘cause apparently this is what I need right now. And it did help and it did solve my problem. So that like one big time was like, uh oh, a computer science thing. And whatever else. That wasn’t lead code, but it does say advanced math was needed. Okay. I get that.

And I’m happy to learn that once I like find that as the solution. It’s just like having that in my back pocket in case one day I need it. It’s a little crazy ‘cause I got a lot of other stuff in my head. And maybe that stuff’s valuable. I don’t know. So for me, it actually was kind of like not on my radar until like maybe the last five years when like off and on we were running an agency.

And sometimes you gotta do interviews as part of an agency and then other

[00:45:58] Robbie Wagner: do have to do interviews. Not [00:46:00] not interviews.

[00:46:02] Chuck Carpenter: I mean, yes and no, but anyway, uh, you don’t go through like the fool thing, but you might get like some kind of like, show me what you got, show me what you’re working with. You know? That’s a Missy

[00:46:10] Madison Kanna: you got. I like

[00:46:11] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, that’s a

[00:46:11] Madison Kanna: I just wanna show up to an interview and be like, if the interview, show me what you got.

[00:46:15] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. Show me what you got.

[00:46:16] Madison Kanna: me what you got.

[00:46:17] Chuck Carpenter: Uh, that would be great. So all of that said is that, oh, I think I might have lost it.

See? There you go. Make, make enough jokes. No, and I’m getting, I’m getting older and my memory is very short term and whatever else. And is the dranks

[00:46:33] Robbie Wagner: I think,

the drink makes it better,

actually. My brain just short circuits when I’m not drunk.

[00:46:38] Chuck Carpenter: yeah.

[00:46:39] Madison Kanna: oh yeah, you’re like one of those people. You get drunk and you think everything you say is really smart.

[00:46:43] Chuck Carpenter: It’s the bomber peak. It’s the bomber peak. You know

[00:46:45] Madison Kanna: do that too.

[00:46:46] Chuck Carpenter: you know the XKCD, where it’s like the bomber peak, you like get better, better, better until you are just fall off of it.

[00:46:52] Robbie Wagner: Yeah.

Until you black out. Yeah.

[00:46:54] Chuck Carpenter: All that is to say is like, yeah. Certain things about like learning leak code used to be just like [00:47:00] a very narrow group of companies that just have this like specific hiring loop and experience, and I feel like so many other companies have adopted it.

I think partially out of laziness, because for the most part, like even if you go through that path, what they’re working on, it doesn’t need most of like those advanced algorithms or those patterns or whatever else. It’s like, yeah, it’s a crud application. Okay.

[00:47:25] Robbie Wagner: Literally all you need to know is if you nest like four or four loops, it’s probably not performant.

[00:47:30] Chuck Carpenter: mm-Hmm.

[00:47:31] Robbie Wagner: kind of all you need to know.

[00:47:32] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah.

[00:47:32] Madison Kanna: about seven? I’m just kidding.

[00:47:34] Chuck Carpenter: Well, which one is faster? Filter or refined? Depends. Depends on the, what am I trying to do? You know, like, will it be more than one or am I just trying to find the

[00:47:43] Robbie Wagner: go backwards?

[00:47:44] Chuck Carpenter: exact? And sometimes it is faster if you go backwards and that’s totally fine and relevant and stuff. But like,

[00:47:50] Robbie Wagner: how much, like, does, does it really matter if it’s to your eye instantaneous regardless?

[00:47:56] Chuck Carpenter: right? Like if you do, if I get it done and then you’re like, oh, it’s [00:48:00] a little slower, how could I make this a little faster? ‘cause

[00:48:02] Robbie Wagner: yeah, that, that, took 10 milliseconds instead of 0.2 milliseconds.

So even though it’s imperceptible to a human, eh? Yeah.

[00:48:12] Chuck Carpenter: so I think this is what we’re saying as a whole. ‘cause I’ve had a career that has been predominantly driven by front end development. ‘cause sometimes we claim engineer and you know, that’s illegal in Canada now. So anyway,

[00:48:25] Madison Kanna: on Twitter tell you that? Like,

[00:48:26] Chuck Carpenter: No, no. I learned that by working with people in

[00:48:29] Madison Kanna: oh, okay.

[00:48:29] Chuck Carpenter: they can’t be called software engineers because there’s no like,

[00:48:33] Robbie Wagner: They have to have an engineering degree

[00:48:35] Chuck Carpenter: and, and certification.

Exactly. So like nationally recognized engineering certifications and software doesn’t have that. So I don’t know how we ever got there. But anyway, developer is totally cool. I’m down with that. I used to be,

[00:48:49] Madison Kanna: great.

[00:48:50] Chuck Carpenter: I’ve been a webmaster and a web designer at points in my career, so I feel like developer’s pretty cool.

I’m into it.

[00:48:57] Madison Kanna: yeah. That’s a great title. I never understand why people get [00:49:00] upset if, you know, like if I think I call myself like a software engineer once, and a bunch of people were screaming at me and I was like, I’m sorry, I’m sorry guys,

[00:49:08] Robbie Wagner: It’s

technically correct

[00:49:09] Madison Kanna: I don’t know. I,

[00:49:10] Chuck Carpenter: mean, it is this, like, it’s all subjective to what that company calls it. I think that’s really what it was, is sort of like, I don’t know. All this got mishmashed in a barrel and. HR companies were like, I don’t know. We need to raise salaries. I actually have experienced this because I’ve been a hire and whatever else.

And HR will like go out into the marketplace and figure their bands and whatever else. And if you have someone, well, they’ve been here three years and they’re trying to make senior or they’ve been here for a bit and all of our salaries a little lower and we need to like be more competitive in the marketplace, they’ll go find another title to apply to that so that they, they can make those bumps.

[00:49:49] Robbie Wagner: engineer.

[00:49:51] Chuck Carpenter: And it’s absolutely correct. So now we need to hire, so yeah, I need to hire software engineers instead of web developers. And because [00:50:00] your HR research forces me into those buckets, that absolutely happens. And that’s why during Zer, people were able to like title hop and it’s like, I wanna be senior in three years.

I mean, that sounds crazy in general. I mean, it’s not ‘cause you’re not smart enough or whatever else, but it’s that you need a certain level of experiences, I think to a degree to get there. And it doesn’t mean it’s 10 years, might be five years. I mean, I don’t know it’s subjective to you, but that’s what they would do.

Just sort of like fill that void and it’s a little crazy. I don’t know.

[00:50:29] Madison Kanna: that makes sense. It is crazy. Yeah, the titles thing is really interesting and wild and, and yeah, people like debating engineer versus developer on Twitter and things you see, but I think front end developers do get, I’m working as a front end developer right now. I think we can get a hard time, especially from people like front end is easy and things people say.

But it’s interesting though because the front end, I mean there’s so many different tools and abstractions and also there’s corks of the browser, and so I feel like my hot take is like if you think front end is easy, you’re probably just not doing front end very well. Like you’re probably a bad front end [00:51:00] developer.

[00:51:01] Robbie Wagner: Yeah.

[00:51:01] Chuck Carpenter: I think

[00:51:01] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. Adam

[00:51:02] Madison Kanna: have insulted like 99% of my best friends when I said that actually.

[00:51:06] Robbie Wagner: Adam

Argyle on, I think he was on bat at CSS. I know he has a million podcasts and videos and shit. But uh, he was talking about like, you know, everyone says that and it’s like, okay, well like how many browsers do you have to support? You got like at least three big ones ‘cause everything’s kind of a chromium derivative, whatever.

Then how many screen reader types are there? How many, like if you’re building an accessible, like usable, nice interface, it is so hard to get that like matrix of all the things. Right?

And like backend is like if this do this got ‘em, it’s a little bit easier. On the surface, yes, there might sometimes be algorithms or data heavy things on the back end, but just because you’re dealing with that doesn’t mean you’re a better engineer than frontend engineers.

[00:51:47] Madison Kanna: Absolutely.

[00:51:48] Chuck Carpenter: So you’re both wrong and right. You’re a little salty and I get that, but obviously

[00:51:52] Madison Kanna: or Robbie Salty or

[00:51:54] Chuck Carpenter: oh, Robbie. Robbie, maybe you are and you hide

[00:51:56] Robbie Wagner: I’m always

[00:51:57] Chuck Carpenter: sure, but yeah, he is, he is very angry. [00:52:00] Jason response, by the way, serious is not rest. So just so you know. Go look it up.

[00:52:07] Robbie Wagner: You know what else

[00:52:08] Chuck Carpenter: I don’t even know you,

[00:52:09] Robbie Wagner: his name is Cyrus, probably.

You’ve been saying

[00:52:12] Chuck Carpenter: Billy Ray Searu or Cyrus.

[00:52:14] Madison Kanna: Sir? Sirius

[00:52:15] Chuck Carpenter: I have said Searu.

[00:52:18] Robbie Wagner: saying that. Yeah,

[00:52:19] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, I feel like I picked that up somewhere. And I can see where like Cyrus, because there’s a lot of people, uh, with the name who are famous that are, well, you can tell us. Can you type it in phonetically

[00:52:30] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. Is it Cy? Like

[00:52:33] Madison Kanna: I cannot say any name, right? Ever. So,

[00:52:36] Chuck Carpenter: yeah.

Anyway. S like C, like you still haven’t fixed it for me. Oh, Miley

[00:52:43] Robbie Wagner: There you go. Yeah.

[00:52:44] Chuck Carpenter: Well my context is Billy Ray, the first one. ‘cause my mom was really into Billy Ray Cyrus, and

[00:52:49] Robbie Wagner: Mm-Hmm. He had one song.

[00:52:51] Chuck Carpenter: or whatever. Yeah. Well it bankrolled a couple of others. Yeah. Oh, this virus from Con Air. I can only remember, uh, Nicholas [00:53:00] Cage’s like mullet from that movie.

And that’s the best part of it. I’m pretty sure.

[00:53:04] Madison Kanna: Never saw it. I never saw it, but I did see Face Off recently, which I think is just a

[00:53:08] Chuck Carpenter: Is amazing. That is a

[00:53:10] Madison Kanna: thought it was a

[00:53:10] Chuck Carpenter: movie. Yes.

[00:53:12] Madison Kanna: So many. I’m not gonna start quoting ‘cause that’d be weird. There’s too many weird quotes, but it such a great

me in 10 minutes. One more drink. I’m

[00:53:19] Chuck Carpenter: one more drink and then it’s like, I expect to see a bunch of like Twitter posts that are just quotes from Face

[00:53:26] Madison Kanna: Yeah. Later tonight you guys are like, we shouldn’t have sent that. Just

[00:53:30] Chuck Carpenter: no, I, I might send you a second if it goes well. Yeah. Anyway, that’s a tangent of, uh, I lo and I lost my place. Hold on here.

And I know

[00:53:39] Robbie Wagner: there anything else tech we actually need to cover or should

we,

just be firmly and whatnot at this

point?

[00:53:45] Chuck Carpenter: I think we should be firmly be and whatnot and, uh, we can pull a pin in some of these ‘cause I think we maybe should have Madison on again.

[00:53:53] Madison Kanna: Did we go too off topic, guys?

[00:53:55] Chuck Carpenter: Yes. I think we, oh,

[00:53:57] Madison Kanna: really? You guys

[00:53:57] Chuck Carpenter: don’t care. There’s no, like, there’s no [00:54:00] agenda

[00:54:00] Madison Kanna: know. No, I’m sorry. I’m being sarcastic. I was trying to say like, you’re the worst podcasters. This is

[00:54:04] Chuck Carpenter: we are, we,

[00:54:05] Robbie Wagner: Well, you’re not wrong there, but, uh,

Yeah.

[00:54:08] Chuck Carpenter: Our one

[00:54:08] Madison Kanna: I say a comment too serious sounding, but I was just trying to tease.

[00:54:11] Robbie Wagner: yeah. Our one listener left the chat

[00:54:13] Chuck Carpenter: I was gonna say, Cyrus has joined us and will never listen again.

[00:54:17] Madison Kanna: he’s like,

[00:54:17] Chuck Carpenter: Cream Kreemer is our one listener, typically him and or type craft. They’re basically kind of like our listenership and we lost one, so.

[00:54:26] Madison Kanna: I listened to you guys. Oh, you mean just on the live stream or on the, no, just kidding.

[00:54:31] Robbie Wagner: yeah.

[00:54:31] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, we will always join. We might do live streams from now on. This is our first one, so bear with us. We were

[00:54:37] Robbie Wagner: We had no idea what we were doing. It seemed pretty seamless.

[00:54:40] Chuck Carpenter: and Madison opted in, so I was like, let’s do it. ‘cause she’s game. I don’t

[00:54:45] Madison Kanna: You should go live on Twitter next time too. I think Restream can

[00:54:47] Robbie Wagner: It is.

[00:54:49] Madison Kanna: Oh, it

[00:54:49] Robbie Wagner: on Twitter and YouTube.

Apparently I haven’t looked,

[00:54:52] Chuck Carpenter: yeah. I

[00:54:53] Robbie Wagner: I should probably look to

[00:54:54] Chuck Carpenter: I like to be blissfully ignorant to my performances, so I

[00:54:59] Robbie Wagner: [00:55:00] Oh, I can watch myself, I think. Or is this an old part? Oh yeah, it’s me delayed. Okay. I’m not gonna watch that anymore. I,

[00:55:07] Madison Kanna: don’t wanna see it.

[00:55:08] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, no, I don’t even listen to these podcasts after they’re done. Like I enjoy the

[00:55:12] Robbie Wagner: someone has to,

[00:55:13] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah.

[00:55:14] Madison Kanna: Oh, so it’s you, Robbie. It’s you doing it.

[00:55:16] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. Yeah. The only ones that

[00:55:18] Robbie Wagner: I’m the producer. He’s the talent.

[00:55:19] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, I listened to the ones where I had the weird like broadcast microphone because Robbie was like, you sound real weird. I don’t think you should use that anymore.

And I was like, I think this is fine. I don’t know what you’re talking about. This is good. And I listened to a couple in my car and I was like, oh, it sounds like I’m in a tin can. This is, yeah. No, I don’t like it. Okay. I’ll go back to

[00:55:39] Robbie Wagner: you should just listen to them, write all the words down, and then rerecord them with your actual mic, and then we’ll just publish that.

[00:55:45] Madison Kanna: that’s a

[00:55:46] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, totally. Go outside in the rain and wait for me to do that. Just don’t come inside. Tell I’m, I’ve delivered them. It’s totally fine. I am interested in this because you have had some, like you weren’t born a [00:56:00] software or Oh, I’m sorry, web developer. These are decisions you made throughout your life and

[00:56:05] Robbie Wagner: Is the web not software

[00:56:07] Chuck Carpenter: I think it’s software.

[00:56:08] Madison Kanna: like a whole debate too.

[00:56:09] Chuck Carpenter: Nah, nah. Fuck that. Yeah, I know. Like people, I was on software. Yeah. We just, it’s a thick client through the browser. Totally. So.

[00:56:17] Madison Kanna: It’s a what?

[00:56:18] Chuck Carpenter: Thick client through the browser?

[00:56:22] Madison Kanna: Think

[00:56:22] Chuck Carpenter: just means

[00:56:23] Madison Kanna: I’m just kidding.

[00:56:23] Chuck Carpenter: all the application lives on board. Okay. You know what this means? You’re just baiting

[00:56:28] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. Ask Ken Wheeler about that thick client.

[00:56:32] Madison Kanna: I actually is. Yeah, I was about, that’s still the first person that comes to mind. I’ll tag him right now. He’ll, he’ll love that.

[00:56:37] Chuck Carpenter: yeah. Yeah. You know what, uh, in October I’m going up to his house. If you want to go, let me know.

[00:56:42] Madison Kanna: Oh, are you going

[00:56:43] Robbie Wagner: schedule that? for, real? for?

real?

[00:56:46] Chuck Carpenter: So I’m going to the East Coast for all things open. We’ll do some things around that. And he keeps like saying, come to my house. Come to my house. So I’m gonna call that bluff. And others are invited. He [00:57:00] invited, uh, Turk and I feel like someone else too. Anyway, so I think it’s kind of an

[00:57:05] Robbie Wagner: Well, I’ll show up

then. Anytime you’re invited somewhere, I just assume it’s

[00:57:09] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. Yeah. Robbie’s just my tag along, you

[00:57:11] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. I’m your plus

[00:57:12] Madison Kanna: one

[00:57:13] Robbie Wagner: yeah,

[00:57:13] Chuck Carpenter: he’s my plus one. Because I can tell you my wife has no interest in that party. She is like, go have fun. Don’t do anything

[00:57:20] Robbie Wagner: I mean, she doesn’t know what she’s missing.

[00:57:23] Madison Kanna: Yeah, that sounds amazing. Oh my gosh.

[00:57:25] Chuck Carpenter: A party at Wheelers. You think, uh, you’re a lightweight. I would work on your tolerance between now and October

[00:57:31] Robbie Wagner: I feel like there’s at

least a 20% chance of like one

person dying anytime Ken Wheeler hosts a

party.

[00:57:38] Chuck Carpenter: yes. Yeah. I

[00:57:40] Madison Kanna: don’t wanna go into React Miami, I mean, whew.

[00:57:42] Robbie Wagner: Yeah.

[00:57:42] Chuck Carpenter: him and Adam wrestling on DAXs Fake Grass. That was hilarious. That was

[00:57:48] Madison Kanna: I have videos of everything and I’m gonna blackmail everyone. Not that they’d care. No. Just like put it out there. Put it out there.

[00:57:54] Chuck Carpenter: it, the only black male is embarrassment and I don’t think they care. I don’t think any of

[00:57:58] Madison Kanna: I know, I know. [00:58:00] I wish. I wanna blackmail someone. It’s one of my life goals. But if you, you know anyone?

[00:58:04] Chuck Carpenter: Okay. Mental notes.

[00:58:06] Madison Kanna: was amazing. I know I almost went to the 4th of July party, but I didn’t end up going Ken Wheeler, fourth of July’s party to talk about craziness, like him celebrating America. Oh my gosh.

[00:58:17] Chuck Carpenter: it was, well, it was too close for me to make it, but I, yeah, I, so we can still do, oh, just travel with family and everything else. I just like couldn’t make it happen.

[00:58:26] Madison Kanna: Yeah, that makes sense.

[00:58:27] Chuck Carpenter: Okay. October, we can make this, but, okay. My question was, if you weren’t in tech, what other career would you choose?

[00:58:35] Madison Kanna: Oh, that’s a really good one. Doesn’t everyone say like farmer?

[00:58:38] Chuck Carpenter: Hmm.

[00:58:39] Madison Kanna: about my, I don’t understand that. I don’t understand when people say like, I just wanna give it all up and be a farmer. Like, no, you don’t. First of all,

[00:58:45] Robbie Wagner: They don’t know how

[00:58:45] Madison Kanna: for that? Are they in shape for that?

[00:58:48] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. Right. I’m

[00:58:49] Madison Kanna: gonna the gym?

I don’t know.

[00:58:50] Chuck Carpenter: no.

[00:58:51] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. It’s hard to grow stuff. Having tried to grow some vegetables this year and had them all eaten by various things,

that’s, that’s not the career for me.[00:59:00]

[00:59:01] Madison Kanna: Uh, I would probably be a tennis instructor. I’m not good enough to teach people tennis, but I would try. I got super into tennis this year. Not pickleball, hate pickleball. Tennis players don’t like pickleball

[00:59:10] Robbie Wagner: Hate. Hate. Okay.

[00:59:12] Chuck Carpenter: a strong word. I think it’s fun for what it is. This is the hot take. I do like tennis. I played tennis when I was younger and enjoyed it quite a bit. My son actually really likes it, so I’m trying to encourage that. He likes tennis and swimming anyway, so

[00:59:27] Robbie Wagner: why, why hate pickleball? I

[00:59:29] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. Why hate

[00:59:30] Robbie Wagner: pickleball?

ever. I’ve played tennis before, but never pickleball,

[00:59:33] Madison Kanna: Tennis people don’t like pickleball. ‘cause pickleball is kind of taking over in a lot of popularity. So just for, to follow the fad of other tennis players, to not have my own opinions and just to go what everyone else says. I’m just kidding. Um, but, so I personally don’t, like, I’m a little kidding, but I don’t like pickleball because, so there’s tennis courts designated around, you know, every city and pickleball players come on the tennis courts and they take your court.

And the problem is pickleball [01:00:00] is not as strenuous as tennis. So you can play for like a long time and tennis players wanna get in and like, you play like hard core tennis for like an hour and you’re exhausted. Like it’s an incredibly hard sport, right. Pickleball definitely is a workout, but it’s a little more, you know, you’re a little, you’re like one foot from someone else.

No offense. No, I’m just kidding. Um, I’m just, just talking crap about, I like pickleball too, but long story short, so they’re kind of taking over the courts and things like that, which is like the issue of. Uh, one of the reasons, at least. Yeah. But then some people say like, pickleball is tennis for unathletic people.

[01:00:31] Chuck Carpenter: I don’t agree with

[01:00:32] Madison Kanna: I’m just being super mean now. I’m sorry. You wanted hot takes. Come on.

[01:00:36] Chuck Carpenter: no, I love

[01:00:37] Robbie Wagner: What about ping

pong?

[01:00:38] Madison Kanna: Ping pong.

[01:00:39] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, it’s an Olympic sport. Is it more or less athletic?

[01:00:43] Chuck Carpenter: Because I feel like that pickleball is this weird blend of those two things. It’s

[01:00:49] Robbie Wagner: like big ping pong

[01:00:50] Madison Kanna: Yeah.

[01:00:51] Chuck Carpenter: ping pong and you do get two players, but you get, you have to play the baseline so much. That’s what, like, if I could just play back a [01:01:00] little, it’s not so bad, but once you have to like play up, what do they call it?

The kitchen or some bullshit. Once you have to play right up at the

[01:01:07] Madison Kanna: The kitchen. Yeah.

[01:01:09] Chuck Carpenter: fucking, yeah. I’ve only played it

[01:01:12] Robbie Wagner: answer is

[01:01:12] Chuck Carpenter: I’m, I’m

[01:01:13] Robbie Wagner: Racketball is better than all of

[01:01:15] Chuck Carpenter: no, fuck the racquetball. I tried that once. I would rather play pickleball. Fuck

[01:01:20] Madison Kanna: crack bot. Never. I don’t think I’ve ever said,

[01:01:22] Chuck Carpenter: some shit coming. You’ve never said, fuck.

[01:01:26] Madison Kanna: not

[01:01:26] Chuck Carpenter: is the first time saying fuck.

[01:01:28] Madison Kanna: I have nothing

[01:01:29] Robbie Wagner: now we have it

[01:01:30] Madison Kanna: not like against it in any sort of religious way, like the other people can curse. I just think when I curse, they sound tacky person something when I do it. But I like when everyone else does. But when I do it, I’m just like, Ugh, I feel like it, you know?

But anyway. Fuck racquetball though.

[01:01:43] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. Fuck racketball. Racketball is

[01:01:45] Madison Kanna: and

[01:01:46] Chuck Carpenter: fucking rubber ball coming at my face like all the

[01:01:49] Madison Kanna: is just like,

[01:01:50] Chuck Carpenter: And I’m constantly like in a 360 of, please don’t hit my face. It’s all I have. And even that is degrading. Like, this is going away. [01:02:00] I gotta hang on to it for now.

[01:02:02] Madison Kanna: because it’s flying at your face.

[01:02:04] Chuck Carpenter: It’s flying in my face. I don’t want

[01:02:06] Madison Kanna: many jokes I wanna make right now, but I’m just like, how far

[01:02:08] Chuck Carpenter: and I could get down.

[01:02:10] Madison Kanna: I really wanna go there.

[01:02:11] Chuck Carpenter: go one of them, please. Just go one. Do it.

[01:02:14] Madison Kanna: Well, clueless, famous movie. Hope you guys know the scene when one girl is like, I have to get out of this sport. ‘cause I don’t like balls flying at my face. And the other girl’s like, there goes your social, social life.

[01:02:25] Chuck Carpenter: Exactly. This is why I’m not gay.

[01:02:28] Madison Kanna: So

[01:02:28] Chuck Carpenter: it is why I’m not gay. I don’t want balls

[01:02:30] Madison Kanna: that’s like an iconic scene in Clueless.

[01:02:32] Chuck Carpenter: it

[01:02:33] Madison Kanna: I make that call with my sisters like once a week at least.

Like so good.

[01:02:39] Chuck Carpenter: Wait, is the context racketball or. Something else.

[01:02:45] Madison Kanna: All the things. All

[01:02:46] Robbie Wagner: Why not both? Oh,

[01:02:49] Madison Kanna: in our chat laughing. That’s, thank you. We appreciate you.

[01:02:53] Chuck Carpenter: That’s a hundred percent of our chat. As far as I know. As far as I know, it’s a hundred percent of our chat are on.

[01:02:58] Madison Kanna: I love

[01:02:58] Robbie Wagner: Oh God.[01:03:00]

Okay. Well on that note, we’re over time here. Uh, is

there anything you would like to plug or things

we missed talking about?

[01:03:08] Madison Kanna: Oh my God. Look how sweaty my hair got from the drinking. I’m like, slicking with sweat, you guys. No,

[01:03:15] Chuck Carpenter: Look, I finally caught up to you. Just so you know, I finally caught

[01:03:17] Madison Kanna: My face is really red.

[01:03:19] Chuck Carpenter: Oh, that’s what

[01:03:19] Robbie Wagner: I feel like

[01:03:20] Madison Kanna: guys. I have

[01:03:20] Robbie Wagner: way more drunk than this. much drunk.

[01:03:23] Madison Kanna: I’m not kidding. I have to deploy after this

[01:03:24] Chuck Carpenter: Don’t, don’t tell your employers where, where it fault,

[01:03:27] Madison Kanna: Sh I have to deploy in a few hours, but I’m gonna have a buddy, like a deploy buddy.

Yeah.

[01:03:32] Chuck Carpenter: Oh, nice.

[01:03:33] Madison Kanna: I wish it was that simple. I’ll be good. Right. Can I like hold you guys liable if something goes wrong?

[01:03:39] Chuck Carpenter: I mean, if you wanna sue us for a hundred percent of nothing, then go for that.

[01:03:43] Robbie Wagner: Yeah.

[01:03:44] Chuck Carpenter: I don’t know if

[01:03:44] Madison Kanna: pod? I could take

[01:03:45] Chuck Carpenter: I don’t know if you know, but my, my kids are gonna have to take at least one less college course based on us sending you this.

And that’s

[01:03:54] Madison Kanna: Do.

[01:03:55] Chuck Carpenter: that’s just what happens. You know, you invest in your current hobbies and [01:04:00] uh, you just go with it.

[01:04:01] Robbie Wagner: Hey,

college won’t be a thing by the time they’re old enough.

[01:04:06] Madison Kanna: That’s amazing. This will be gone before the night is over. Yeah. College will probably be gone by then. Honestly,

[01:04:11] Robbie Wagner: Yeah,

[01:04:11] Madison Kanna: is gonna be gone.

[01:04:13] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. Fuck college.

[01:04:14] Madison Kanna: I already, I didn’t really go to college, so I was already anti college.

[01:04:17] Chuck Carpenter: So this is a whole other podcast. I can’t wait. Before we ask this other one, what are you gonna do at React Miami?

[01:04:24] Robbie Wagner: Well, we we’re still alive.

[01:04:25] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah.

[01:04:26] Madison Kanna: am I gonna do? Oh, I have stuff to announce at some point. Can’t say anything right now. What I am gonna do, be getting drunk with Ken Wheeler, obviously, if that’s

[01:04:34] Robbie Wagner: Oh, we’re all doing that. We’re all doing

[01:04:35] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah.

we’re all doing that.

[01:04:37] Robbie Wagner: There’s 50

people strong at DAXs house.

[01:04:40] Chuck Carpenter: yeah.

[01:04:41] Madison Kanna: Yeah. Dax was, were like the best hosts. That was incredible. Oh my gosh,

[01:04:45] Chuck Carpenter: What you meant was Liz was the best host.

[01:04:47] Madison Kanna: right? Yeah.

Dax didn’t do anything.

[01:04:49] Chuck Carpenter: she brought us a constant. Dax brought the US and thank you, Dax. I appreciate that. You do good work. Liz brought us a constant flow of food for a while. That was [01:05:00] incredible. And there you go.

[01:05:01] Madison Kanna: okay. There’s one person at React Miami. They seem like a very scary person online. They seem kind of scary. You’re like, oh, that guy. And then you meet him and you’re like, he’s one of the kindest people I’ve ever met. He’s someone who tweets and you’re just like, he’s a little scary. I’m a little bit just for everyone.

You’re like, uh, could he be like kind of a dick in real life? Just a little. And then you meet him and you’re like, he’s so freaking kind. He’s like the, one of the kindest, sweetest, like greatest guys. Anyway, I won’t say who it is, but it’s

[01:05:29] Chuck Carpenter: Okay. I was gonna say,

[01:05:30] Robbie Wagner: yeah.

Cyrus was

[01:05:31] Chuck Carpenter: Cyrus just said Dax. Yeah. He is a very nice, cool dude. He’s very smart and he has strong opinions, and so that’s not really being a dick. This is actually, I, I think this like equates back to what I was saying about like old school web and all of that, and like people were like, tough love to a degree.

Like, like I think he has a lot of that. Like he has a lot of very sane opinions about like things happening all over the place and people [01:06:00] overcomplicating Actually, I don’t even think that’s a thing we’ve really touched on in this episode, which is things have gotten very complicated and sometimes that’s right, but is it always

[01:06:11] Madison Kanna: yeah. Oh yeah. We meant to talk about that. Like I had lots of good things to say. I don’t know what they are now, but

[01:06:16] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. You’ll tweet them later. It’s totally fine.

[01:06:18] Madison Kanna: I’ll tweet them later. No, I completely agree. I think it is tough love or not even, maybe it’s not even tough love. It’s just like saying like common sense things. I think everyone has gotten incredibly sensitive in this day and age, and if you say something worded the wrong way, everyone gets really mad.

It feels like we are turning away from that on. Tech Twitter again. And I think we see some people that can say different, you know, sort different jokes and we can joke around again in a way that like five years ago I feel like we weren’t able to, to be honest. So yeah, I completely agree with you. Yeah, no, I love DI think just some of his tweets, like I did not, he doesn’t come across as necessarily like the sweetheart that he is, but he’s probably not gonna, like, I’m ruining his like bad boy image now, so I’ll delete that out part out.

[01:06:58] Chuck Carpenter: yeah. It’s [01:07:00] okay. He doesn’t listen to this and neither do any of his followers, so

[01:07:04] Robbie Wagner: He’s been on here, but he definitely doesn’t

[01:07:06] Chuck Carpenter: He definitely doesn’t listen. There’s no, yeah, whatever. SST is good though,

[01:07:11] Madison Kanna: uh, complex. We, I said front end fulfillment’s getting complex and we talked about it. Yes.

[01:07:16] Chuck Carpenter: and I think that’s right, and I think we can have a whole other conversation about that is it’s, it’s getting complex and it’s okay that a complex option is available to you.

I just don’t think it’s the default.

[01:07:27] Madison Kanna: that’s a really good take.

[01:07:28] Robbie Wagner: And before we can expand on that at all, I’m gonna stop us right there because I gotta go have dinner before my son goes to bed, so, so yeah. Thanks Cyrus for hanging with us. Uh, anyone else that might be lurking, we’ll try streaming some more another time and see how it goes. See you.

[01:07:45] Outro: You’ve been watching Whiskey Web and Whatnot. Recorded in front of a live studio audience. What the fuck are you talking about, Chuck? Enjoyed the show? Subscribe. You know, people don’t pay attention to these, right? Head to [01:08:00] whiskey.fund for merchant to join our Discord server. I’m serious, it’s like 2% of people who actually click these links. And don’t forget to leave us a five star review and tell your friends about the show. All right, dude, I’m outta here. Still got it.