229: Is AI Just Stealing with Extra Steps? (Presented by CodeRabbit)

[00:00:00] Intro: Welcome to Syntax. Welcome to a brand new episode of the Front End Happy Hour podcast. Welcome to this week’s JS Party. Live from Ship Shape Studios, this is Whiskey Web and Whatnot. With your hosts, Robbie the Wagner, and me, Charles William Carpenter III. That’s right Charles. We drink whiskey and talk about web development.

[00:00:27] Intro: I mean, it’s all in the name. It’s not that deep. This is Whiskey Web and Whatnot. Do not adjust your set.

[00:00:36] Chuck Carpenter: Whiskey Web and Whatnot is brought to you by.

[00:00:41] Adam Argyle: As more and more code is generated, developers end up spending more time reading and reviewing code. This creates an issue on reliably shipping quality code. So even though AI is promising, a lack of proper guardrails can slow down teams. CodeRabbit is an AI code reviewer. Unlike AI code generators like Cursor, windsurf, or GitHub copilot it reasons and submits feedback [00:01:00] on your code base while you raise a pull request to merge code into your VCS code.

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[00:01:21] Adam Argyle: It’s also performed more than 15 million PR reviews.

[00:01:24] Robbie Wagner: Hey, what’s up everybody? Welcome to Whiskey Web and whatnot on Margarita Thursday, first Whiskey web and whatnot of the year for 2026. Excited to be here. Have some whiskey. How’s it going, Adam?

[00:01:38] Adam Argyle: Oh dude, I’m so good. I’m also fighting just the doom and gloom of AI looming over top of our head. It’s like a PAC Man just eating all our shit and giving us nothing in return. It’s like, gimme some coin, please. And it’s like, no, I’m just gonna take,

[00:01:51] Robbie Wagner: Yep, yep. We will jump more into that, but let’s have some whiskey first.

[00:01:56] Robbie Wagner: All right, so this is, the old Forester 1897, [00:02:00] it is bottled in bond, which means it is a hundred proof and I think they grow all of the stuff there. I don’t a hundred percent know what that means. Chuck would know.

[00:02:08] Robbie Wagner: Uh, Nashville is 72% corn, 18% rye, and 10% malted barley. It is a hundred proof ‘cause it is bottle and bottom. So of course it’s a hundred proof and it is at least four years old. And I don’t know if you were, I guess, yeah, you can see it on your screen too, but here, for everyone it is, it looks like this, it’s green. They also have like a teal one and a bunch of different colors on the thing. , I forget if it’s 1920 or 1910 that they have, that’s like our previous favorite, but they have a bunch of them that are different years and they’re supposed to be, I guess, modeled after that year.

[00:02:42] Robbie Wagner: Like how whiskey was popularly made then or something.

[00:02:45] Adam Argyle: Hmm. That’s cool. I love the little, , so many moments. It’s like every year they’re probably just like, let’s do one tweak. ‘cause it’s gonna take us five years to taste it. So, uh,

[00:02:54] Adam Argyle: let’s, let’s try to only do one little ch imagine your build times for five years. Everybody, that’s [00:03:00] whiskey. You got an 18 year build time on this bottle.

[00:03:04] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. That’s why everybody just sources whiskey. They’re like, I don’t have the time to age this MGP. Gimme some whiskey. Let’s do it. We’ll sell it right now.

[00:03:13] Adam Argyle: Ooh, yummy, spicy,

[00:03:16] Robbie Wagner: Ooh, I smell apple and pear.

[00:03:19] Adam Argyle: Hmm.

[00:03:19] Robbie Wagner: A little bit of cinnamon.

[00:03:21] Adam Argyle: Colors. More on the yellow side on the, than the red side.

[00:03:24] Robbie Wagner: Ooh. It tastes, um, much, much different than it smells.

[00:03:27] Adam Argyle: Oh yeah. That’s why I was like, I’m not gonna go much off this ‘cause I’m not loving the smell, but I do like the taste at the moment. So

[00:03:33] Robbie Wagner: I feel like I’m getting like current jelly on the

[00:03:38] Robbie Wagner: flavors.

[00:03:39] Adam Argyle: current jelly. Nice.

[00:03:40] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, I don’t know why.

[00:03:42] Adam Argyle: I’m trying to figure it out. There’s a, there’s a dancing, a dancing pepper, dancing spice on there, which is good.

[00:03:50] Adam Argyle: Oh the, yeah, the trailing cinnamon and then as it trails you get some of the sweetness coming in from that bourbon influence. Okay, cool.

[00:03:58] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. And that’s a little [00:04:00] bit, I don’t know if it’s like too much wood or what, but a little bit of harshness like on the finish, which just happened a few times and I don’t know what causes that, but

[00:04:08] Robbie Wagner: it’s familiar.

[00:04:09] Adam Argyle: age Maybe?

[00:04:10] Robbie Wagner: Could be, it might not be

[00:04:11] Robbie Wagner: old

[00:04:11] Adam Argyle: the young age is why. I don’t like the smell, but tastes good.

[00:04:15] Robbie Wagner: I only like old smells.

[00:04:17] Adam Argyle: Well, uh, it’s good. I’ll be 40 in a couple months. You’ll love it. Start smelling 40 too.

[00:04:24] Robbie Wagner: I thought you were already 40. Thought you had said you were 40 at some

[00:04:27] Robbie Wagner: point. I guess you were just rounding up.

[00:04:29] Adam Argyle: Yeah. My wife got really mad. She’s like, you can’t round up to 40. And I’m like, you can. She’s like, no, you need to be at least there. Oh, so it’s greater than or equal to. I can’t round up unless I’m All right. Whatever.

[00:04:42] Robbie Wagner: Oh my,

[00:04:44] Adam Argyle: Uh, yeah.

[00:04:45] Robbie Wagner: my wife and I are mentally like 75, so it’s fine.

[00:04:50] Adam Argyle: Ooh. What was your Spotify age you got, did you check that out?

[00:04:54] Robbie Wagner: oh no, I didn’t do my personal rap. Actually, I did the, the one for the show to like see our [00:05:00] listener growth and what was most popular and stuff. But I didn’t do, I, think I looked at mine for a second and like literally all I had listened to, like every single like of my top songs was just Mayday Parade.

[00:05:09] Robbie Wagner: And I was like, well that’s not very interesting to look at. So I didn’t even bother.

[00:05:15] Adam Argyle: I do a good job separating, I think we’ve talked about it on here, but I have like a decoy account for all the kids. Crap they wanna listen to. And anytime someone asks for something on the Google Home, it’s not my account, it’s the burner. It’s the burner after our, uh, dog’s name. Anyway, mine though, I open it up and my friends and my spouse are all getting like 30 and 20, and mine says 87.

[00:05:35] Adam Argyle: You’re listening ages 87. And I was like,

[00:05:38] Adam Argyle: geez. There’s definitely, yeah, like pretty much on the weekends I wake up to, and I do crooners in the morning. I really like, and then I listen to a lot of banjo, old timey banjo stuff, so they’re like, yeah, you’re probably from the forties. I’m like,

[00:05:50] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. You know who I like that’s, , I guess relevant to that category, but new is Teddy swims. He’s my jam right now.

[00:05:58] Adam Argyle: huh? Nice.

[00:05:59] Robbie Wagner: He [00:06:00] looks like, like a post Malone before he lost weight.

[00:06:04] Adam Argyle: Yes, he does. Nice.

[00:06:08] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, and he’s really good. Like I had never heard of him and he was on like the VMAs on like a side stage, which is usually for like shitty stupid artists. I was like, wow, this guy is awesome. And like, he’s actually really popular. There’s a couple like, , top 10 hits that you’ve probably heard.

[00:06:22] Adam Argyle: Yeah. Cool. Dang. I’ll go check it out. I was spending some, uh, records this week too. It was just a, I felt like listening to albums, the whole, you know, start to finish albums were so good. , I need to revisit that. And then just even getting up outta, oh, what’s up pup?

[00:06:36] Robbie Wagner: Guest appearance. He is just freaking out on the floor. Like, do something with me.

[00:06:43] Adam Argyle: I get that one. My pup visits me all the time. She’s like, so you done working yet? I’m like, nah. She’s like, but I got the toy ready. Don’t you wanna play? And I’m like, I will. You know, I’m good for it. Just gimme some time.

[00:06:53] Robbie Wagner: All right, so let’s regress just a second to our rating system. Zero to eight tentacles, zero’s the worst. Eight’s the best [00:07:00] four and a half middle of the road. What do you think?

[00:07:01] Adam Argyle: Five and a half, six something in there. it’s drinkable. It hits, it’s in the category. I’m happy. I’m not disappointed. , High proof. I’m gonna drink this and more. And so it’s not throw away, it’s good. It’s just, yeah, I’m not gonna ride home. Yeah.

[00:07:17] Robbie Wagner: yeah. Yeah. I don’t think I’ve had any old forester that I would throw away this one. I think I’ve had three or four before and this one is maybe the worst one, but it’s still good. , So I’m gonna give it a five. Five seems appropriate.

[00:07:29] Robbie Wagner: Alright, so speaking of throwing things away, is AI just stealing with extra steps?

[00:07:35] Adam Argyle: Interesting. Stealing with extra. What’s the extra step? The extra step. You have to prompt it, you know,

[00:07:40] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. Yeah. Like instead of,

[00:07:43] Robbie Wagner: well, instead of being like, Hey, you know what, I painted the Mona Lisa that this is my work. Like instead of just flat out taking it and saying that it’s mine. You go, oh, create me something that is 99% the same, using all of it as your reference, but it’s a new, new work. So it, [00:08:00] it’s mine now.

[00:08:00] Robbie Wagner: still pretty much stealing. Feels like

[00:08:03] Adam Argyle: still stealing. I, yeah. The worst one I saw was gr which, uh, ‘cause it doesn’t have as many limits on what it’ll do. Right. It’s horny, , it’s rude and it rips shit off extra fast. And so yeah, they’re like, take this piece of work, just take the watermark off. And it’s like, boom, the watermark’s gone.

[00:08:17] Adam Argyle: You’re like, yeah. Alright, now just change the hat. It’s like the hat’s different. Yeah. Okay. I’m gonna sell that. You’re just like, no, that’s, that’s messed up. Dude. Don’t, don’t do that. Please. Like

[00:08:29] Robbie Wagner: I hadn’t really thought that far into it. ‘cause like with coding it’s a little bit more obfuscated. It’s like, you know, I’m building this thing and I don’t understand how to build certain parts of it and I want to get like, advice and like, iterate on it.

[00:08:44] Robbie Wagner: And it feels like it’s coding it, from some sort of, expertise. Not just like stealing code, but it is really just stealing code. Like, I always forget that it’s not, not thinking at all, it’s just like, , like there was a, I don’t [00:09:00] know exactly what happened ‘cause I guess haven’t seen this somehow online, but, , I guess like within the past few days, like Adam Waan laid off a bunch of people at Tailwind

[00:09:09] Robbie Wagner: and like all of that was like attributed to AI stealing all of their work basically.

[00:09:14] Robbie Wagner: Like, they can’t, I guess, sell as many templates and stuff when it just like, AI can just build ‘em. You don’t need to buy ‘em ‘cause. It just looks at it and goes, that looks like this. Uh, here’s a Indigo 500, , everything and, uh, you’ve got it for free. So that’s pretty fucked up. I don’t love that.

[00:09:31] Adam Argyle: I don’t, that’s part of like, when we opened up and I was like, doom and gloom. It’s basically inspired by that. , I’ve seen AI steal open source work. It steals closed source work. It’s like, ‘cause it doesn’t really care. Even if the code’s obfuscated, it’ll figure it out. It’ll make new patterns and match them and regurgitate them without you asking.

[00:09:48] Adam Argyle: So it’s gone to CSS tricks and read every article and stolen it and regurgitates it as if it’s its own. It’s gone to every open source repo. Stolen that it’s gone to anywhere it can find code, it’s just a greedy [00:10:00] little butthole and it’ll go steal all that stuff. Then it replaced junior jobs.

[00:10:04] Adam Argyle: So we saw layoffs attributed to we don’t need juniors, we have ai. And now we have, , open source laying off very talented, high quality engineers because they can’t afford them because AI is just generating the same, it’s generating the things that made them money. So the free side of their thing that led people and funneled them into the payment scenario is now toast.

[00:10:28] Adam Argyle: And basically, if Tailwind can’t do it, no one can do it. And so I was, I was thinking about that all day today. I was like, dude, open source is dead. Open source was almost even kind of dead already. It was like, why are we doing this anymore? No one gets paid from it. It’s not helping you get a job. , All of its benefits have kind of dwindled away other than the, the goodness of our hearts, you know, which I, Hey, I’m, I’m actually a very positive person.

[00:10:48] Adam Argyle: I’m pro that. But dude, we’re in a scenario now where I’m just like, I don’t know where the rainbow. is going anymore. And so I made a joke about OSS Open Source software, , is now we should just start making CSS closed [00:11:00] source software. that’s what I

[00:11:04] Robbie Wagner: oh yeah.

[00:11:05] Adam Argyle: Thank you. I thought that joke was all right. Uh, you know, it takes a certain audience to think that’s funny. But yeah, man.

[00:11:11] Robbie Wagner: Oh, I

[00:11:12] Adam Argyle: CSS it’s about to be really popular.

[00:11:15] Robbie Wagner: Yes, it is. Yeah. Oh, man. So yeah, the really the only benefits to open source as of now. I still make all of my stuff open because one, I don’t really care. And like two, you get all the free stuff. So like, GitHub lets you run more GitHub actions and stuff. And like, , code Rabbit, you can run infinitely for free on all open source stuff.

[00:11:36] Robbie Wagner: So

[00:11:36] Robbie Wagner: like,

[00:11:37] Adam Argyle: is cool. Yeah.

[00:11:38] Robbie Wagner: it has been actually really good.

[00:11:40] Adam Argyle: How are they gonna do that?

[00:11:42] Robbie Wagner: , They’re pledging that it’s going to be free forever, and then it does cost them a lot of money. I imagine whenever the, like, VC money dries up and it’s like, you know, you have to actually make money now, then they might turn it off. But, for now I’m really enjoying it because I, I’m like, Hey, AI on my machine.

[00:11:59] Robbie Wagner: build this [00:12:00] thing and then I’m like, cool, I don’t wanna look at any of the code. I’m gonna ship it up to GitHub. And then it’s like, Ooh, this stuff sucks and it’s gonna break in this way. And then I’m like, I go back to my local and I’m like, Hey, did you know this sucks and it’s gonna break in this way?

[00:12:12] Robbie Wagner: And it’s like, oh my God, you’re absolutely right. Like, let me go fix it. So it’s actually been catching stuff that like, I don’t know if the local stuff’s not being thorough enough when it’s building it or like what the disconnect

[00:12:23] Robbie Wagner: is,

[00:12:23] Robbie Wagner: but

[00:12:23] Adam Argyle: know what it’s doing. Robbie, that’s the problem, is AI

[00:12:26] Robbie Wagner: well sure. But I

[00:12:27] Adam Argyle: what it’s doing, you know?

[00:12:28] Robbie Wagner: whatever they have, whatever secret sauce code Rabbit has, seems to be better at like actually deciphering what the code should be doing.

[00:12:35] Robbie Wagner: So it’s like better at knowing when you messed up little things that like, you know, general AI doesn’t know. So that’s like

[00:12:42] Adam Argyle: Yeah, they called it learnings, right? Yeah. We’ve been, uh, studying what code Rapid does and they have learning. So I’m assuming, well, hopefully they learned on, , stuff that they should. Maybe that’s why it’s free. So maybe the free part is like, you are the product, so you put it on your open source and now they’re like, sweet, you let us in, you let the vampire in and now we’re gonna bite your shit.

[00:12:59] Adam Argyle: We’re gonna [00:13:00] suck up everything we can out of it and then

[00:13:02] Adam Argyle: make our

[00:13:02] Robbie Wagner: Jokes on you. I got it all from AI in the first place.

[00:13:05] Adam Argyle: yeah, slot machine flywheel. Go.

[00:13:10] Robbie Wagner: Yeah.

[00:13:10] Adam Argyle: oh, there’s so much in this category to talk about. It’s just outta control. , Anyway, continue your thought. I feel like you still had one going on.

[00:13:16] Robbie Wagner: Oh, I don’t know. My thoughts frequently just end, but uh, yeah, prime had like retweeted, , something about the whole tailwind thing. It was basically like, you know, I think, and I kind of agree with this take, but I don’t know, , what your thoughts are that like, basically for all of these CEOs who just like threw caution to the wayside and like, were like, we need to, you know, we’re racing to be the best AI product.

[00:13:40] Robbie Wagner: We need everything to, , you know, work immediately. We don’t care how much stuff we steal. We don’t care who we put outta work, whatever, that all of those people should be held criminally liable for like. Anything that was in fact theft. Like you might have to do a little bit of, you know, investigation into how you could prove that it was like actually, you know, grand larceny [00:14:00] or whatever, but like it is, in my opinion.

[00:14:03] Adam Argyle: It is, and, and it’s easy to see. And I suppose we’re in a lawyer scenario where it’s hard to prove and that’s just a pain in the ass. , Yeah. It’s ca it’s like a, it’s money. Money did this and it made people want to, to make fast cash. And so they stepped on carcasses. They stole from people without asking.

[00:14:21] Adam Argyle: And you know, they’re gonna make a claim, like you put it on the internet as soon as it’s on the internet. That shit is just a webpage and a webpage. You can’t, control that. Which is, honestly, something that was kind of cool about the internet for a while was that it was a very anti-corporate, place to be because no one controlled it.

[00:14:36] Adam Argyle: And it was open and free and that was its value. And then this tool showed up and stole from it at a massive rate. Like it was fine when crawl, like spiders were crawling it to help us find the content on it. But it sucks when something is crawling it to soak it up and steal it and sell it back to us.

[00:14:53] Adam Argyle: That sucks. So yeah, I think it is on the higher up folks that there should have been some accountability. There still needs to be accountability. [00:15:00] There is none. There’s only growth. And we’re probably even gonna see a scenario soon where like an AI company had an ai CEO and the AI CEOs chose to continue stealing.

[00:15:10] Adam Argyle: You know, and you’re like, well, and then who do we blame at this point? Because, uh, CEOs that are AI don’t make money. And yeah, you’re gonna have to try to sue the corporation. It’s just, ah, dude, it’s a humongous, nasty mess. And the people benefiting it, , from it are not us. Our jobs are about to go.

[00:15:26] Adam Argyle: Tons of jobs are about to go. The work that I’m even doing now is insanely different than it was. Six months ago, different from two years ago and wildly different from five and 10 years ago. And

[00:15:36] Adam Argyle: there’s no stopping it. It’s just this huge thing. Yeah.

[00:15:38] Robbie Wagner: yeah, I don’t know how I feel about, you know, the whole, will all the jobs go away or not? Like I think if you’re a big corporation and you continue to make money somehow, like your corporation is not cut down by ai, then other than greed and like, Hey, I need, instead of like $50 [00:16:00] million, I need $150 million personally, as long as you don’t have too much of that, I don’t see why you wouldn’t just continue to pay developers.

[00:16:08] Robbie Wagner: Like you wouldn’t hire more probably, but just keep paying the people that you are, make sure they’re using AI to its fullest to like ship stuff really quick and like whatever. ‘cause I think you still need, like there’s a lot of stuff that yes, it can kind of build like code basically anything I ask it to these days.

[00:16:24] Robbie Wagner: However, I know things that could be better because I know what’s better. So like, I think. Like, I was doing stuff with Ember data today and I’m like, I know that this thing isn’t gonna work with it the way you did it. So like, having that human that knows to check you and be like, now maybe that could be CodeRabbit or like some other, you know, AI reviewer and maybe there is no human, but I think like, as long as they’re the developer salaries are not hindering you’re like making money, then why wouldn’t you just keep them, like, keep the status quo?

[00:16:54] Robbie Wagner: Like, you know, you don’t need to lay everyone off , just ‘cause but maybe that’s wishful [00:17:00] thinking.

[00:17:00] Adam Argyle: margins. Yeah. I mean, it’s a corporation. This is always their claim. It’s like they’re just gonna, they’re just do whatever it takes to make more, ‘cause more is better , at least to corporation. Right? It’s like if you can, you should.

[00:17:11] Adam Argyle: Have you seen Gastown?

[00:17:12] Robbie Wagner: I have not,

[00:17:14] Adam Argyle: Gastown it’s the person who created beads. Do you know what beads is? Cool.

[00:17:20] Robbie Wagner: like the things you put on a, a little bracelet Sometimes you

[00:17:23] Robbie Wagner: make curtains out of them

[00:17:25] Adam Argyle: Yeah. Curtains too. That’s great. I was told there is a, so beads is a way for you to, , pass data between agents. , But there is, , an anal beads repo, which, uh, they took a NAL and they made it something like analysis something.

[00:17:40] Adam Argyle: Anyway, so you can use

[00:17:40] Adam Argyle: anal beads.

[00:17:41] Adam Argyle: Okay. Anyway.

[00:17:41] Robbie Wagner: Yeah.

[00:17:42] Adam Argyle: Because of course they did. ‘cause it’s the internet. And that’s, and maybe, you know, AI wouldn’t do something stupid like that. And that’s a

[00:17:46] Adam Argyle: human, so let’s say everyone, you’ve used Claude or you’ve used Open Code, which I’ve been using Open Code in the past couple weeks.

[00:17:53] Adam Argyle: You’ve got an agent. , You did some shit with it, but now you, now you have two agents. You spun up a new tab and now you have two and they’re both doing shit and you’re like, [00:18:00] oh yeah, now we’re going. And then you, you spin up five and you have five tabs. And now you’re like, okay, well these five tabs are starting to stomp on top of each other.

[00:18:07] Adam Argyle: I gotta use work trees. And you’re like, yeah, okay, I’ll, now you’ve got work trees and you’re multiple agents are working. It’s now you’re back merging their work from work trees into a branch that’s a feature branch , and you’re feeling really good about it. However, your orchestration’s getting tough and you’re having, , trouble managing Ralph.

[00:18:24] Adam Argyle: So even though Ralph was in there, , managing a loop for you, , things are still getting outta control. You need to pass data from one agent to the next ‘cause in order to do a big task. Yeah, dude, go ahead and interrupt me. It’s fine.

[00:18:34] Robbie Wagner: No, I just, I forgot about the, the Ralph thing. What’s the, what’s the last name of Ralph? I forget. It’s like Ralph something. Yeah.

[00:18:42] Adam Argyle: Yeah. He’s so hot right now. Ralph is so hot. Dude.

[00:18:44] Robbie Wagner: I know I watched like five minutes of uh, Matt Pocock explaining that it’s just a for loop and that

[00:18:51] Robbie Wagner: it’s

[00:18:52] Adam Argyle: just a for loop.

[00:18:53] Robbie Wagner: because stuff is better now you can, like, it’s viable.

[00:18:56] Robbie Wagner: Whereas like before it wasn’t viable ‘cause AI would just like choke [00:19:00] and die. Like you couldn’t just let it for loop. But now that it’s better, it’s like viable, which makes

[00:19:06] Adam Argyle: I don’t know. It’s not really that. It’s better. It’s more like you’ve, formalized.

[00:19:09] Adam Argyle: Okay, so yeah, let’s, let’s talk more about Ralph versus Gastown. ‘cause these are like, they’re both trying to solve the same things. People wanna do bigger, better shit with ai. And so that’s kinda what I’m working to.

[00:19:20] Adam Argyle: It’s like you’ve got five agents now, now you have 10 agents and you need to pass data between these because agents lose their memory. the memory needs compressed. So how do you pass memory from one agent to the next? And there’s all sorts of different strategies, dude. People are writing emails, people have an agent write an email in quotes, but basically the same thing to the next agent.

[00:19:39] Adam Argyle: Here’s what I did, here’s what needs to be done. Here’s some history. Go do that shit.

[00:19:44] Robbie Wagner: That’s what I do. If I know I’m gonna run out of tokens or context or whatever it may be, soon, I’m like, Hey, just wrap up what you’re doing and like, tell me what to tell the next time, like so that we can start from here.

[00:19:56] Adam Argyle: And that’s like markdown too. People are writing to markdown files, right? So you’ve got like a [00:20:00] plan, the plan goes through some to-dos, maybe you, evolve it and it writes it back to the markdown. , And I’ve even been, , trying a skill-based version of this. So like I invoke an agent with a skill, it goes and does this task.

[00:20:11] Adam Argyle: , It learns a bunch of stuff from performing the task, bakes it back into the skill. So the next agent I spin up to do the same task somewhere else in the code base, like a migration or whatever. , It’s bigger, smarter, faster than the, the one prior. So it’s like you have this issue, like once you run into a bunch of agents, you need to pass data.

[00:20:26] Adam Argyle: Okay? So we will fast forward to Gastown. And Gastown is from the person who made beads. Oh, beads. By the way, everybody is a GI based way of sharing data amongst your agents. So you’re not gonna litter your repo with markdown. You’re also not dealing with a SQL light database or a Vector database, , or, , emails or whatever it is, or skills.

[00:20:45] Adam Argyle: You’re not, beads is a get based way to persist data across multi-agent sessions. So then you have

[00:20:51] Adam Argyle: Gastown,

[00:20:51] Robbie Wagner: this related to, uh, sorry, I know nothing about this, but you might. like Juujitsu or JJ or whatever, that’s, I think also [00:21:00] for doing like kind of get based something like, basically, so you could, like, every time you run something in ai, it’s like, like stashing what the last thing did so you’re not clobbering yourself or something.

[00:21:11] Robbie Wagner: And then like you can ultimately, I think, commit the whole thing, just like it or whatever, but like something like that, I don’t know if they’re related at all or different.

[00:21:19] Adam Argyle: What you’re talking about is that there’s multiple people trying to solve this same problem. and I even want to talk about a, a certain point too, where like, , both things that we’re doing in the AI world that are becoming popular just get baked right into AI super fast again, stealing, Hey, everybody’s uniting on this really nice patch.

[00:21:36] Adam Argyle: Steal it. Okay. Uh, like Ralph Wiggins is now baked into Claude basically is, is a good example. Like people were hand rolling a Python script. That’s what Matt Pocock did. He, he showed hand rolled Python that was looking for a certain promise that got returned by the agent. If it didn’t, then it just ran that shit again in the loop.

[00:21:52] Adam Argyle: Now it’s official. And Claude Claude’s just like, oh yeah, great idea. We stole it. So then that’s gonna happen with beads and all these other tools, especially like the Kanban [00:22:00] thing, which we’ll probably get into. We’re seeing businesses wanting to be the swarm manager. And then, okay, so let’s get to Gastown.

[00:22:07] Adam Argyle: Gastown is the person who made beads, which is currently the most popular and tried and true way for sharing data amongst your agents on long running and difficult tasks like overnight type tasks in Gastown. okay. You’re talking about like people, Hey, I wanna keep people around. Gastown is people, Gastown is an, it’s essentially like seven people, seven roles, which also have you tried open code?

[00:22:28] Adam Argyle: Oh my open code. Have you seen that?

[00:22:30] Robbie Wagner: I have not, no.

[00:22:32] Adam Argyle: God, let’s talk about that one too. It’s kind of like a mini gas town built right into open code. If you install these plugins, it’s kind of cool. Okay. So imagine ga gastown is the scenario where it’s like, look, you wanna get something really big done, or you want to have, you want to delegate a whole bunch of work to a whole bunch of agents.

[00:22:46] Adam Argyle: You are the. I don’t know the only human that’s involved in this whole thing. And there’s seven different roles that can have one or many of them. and it’s kind of like if you think basic, like maybe you have a plan and an orchestrator and the orchestrator spins up agents, [00:23:00] it’s like that on, in a small gas town scenario.

[00:23:03] Adam Argyle: So you’ve got roles that do specific things that can help you, fan them out in parallel, verify work, verify tests, do just do the whole nine, like some people are out there basically trying to recreate entire companies, entire agencies, entire huge businesses and taking every single person’s role and turning it into, agradable and overnight scenario with agents and it burns through your cash like crazy.

[00:23:28] Adam Argyle: but it does create, it creates results. Here’s the thing that I’m always laughing at. Okay. I just wanna like side sidestep real quick. , I’ve tried a lot of these things. I see a lot of the things that people make with these, and while it is cool, it reminds me of. computers for computer, you know, people that code just to code the computer.

[00:23:43] Adam Argyle: They’re like, look at what I made the computer do. And you’re like, that’s pretty cool. You made the computer do that. what did it make though? And you’re like, ah, it’s kind of turd over here. You’re like, all right, well you, that’s a really elaborate turd, you know? And I’m looking at people’s output from like, Gastown and Ralph Wiggins the same way.

[00:23:57] Adam Argyle: I’m like, wow, you ran Ralph all night for like 150 [00:24:00] bucks and you got a turd. You know, like, yeah, that’s fine. It’s like, it’s mildly better than my one shot turd. So congratulations to your whole huge setup. but I don’t know. Everyone is very like, they, so we’re creating these things because we want the fu Well, some people, some people want this future where maybe models are better, and maybe we’ll talk about that too.

[00:24:16] Adam Argyle: It’s like models, , have they peaked? When are they gonna peak? That’s really impactful for how we predict what’s happening next. But Gasti, a lot of these methods are trying to, like Ralph Wiggins is trying to. Take a, a sort of mildly capable model and make it better by running it through the same thing over and over again.

[00:24:35] Adam Argyle: I just talked to a whole bunch, but basically like, I want to chat about Ralph Wiggins, Ralph Wiggins, Gastown, , AI harnesses. If you don’t know what AI harnesses are yet, let’s talk about those. and just like how people are trying to take this machine, this model, which is just a word vomit machine, it’s a pattern matching high prediction engine and tweaking it into producing the things that we want outta [00:25:00] code.

[00:25:00] Adam Argyle: Like how does Bolt work? Bolt works because it’s a, it’s got an AI harness on it. Uh, it’s probably gonna evolve into a gas town scenario here. And then at the end of all this, all these businesses, all these good ideas that people are putting in here, and then they just turn around and get fucking stolen by these big companies that are already stealing everything and they’re gonna steal it and sell it back to you, or they’re gonna sell it to the other people that don’t know how to use it.

[00:25:22] Adam Argyle: And so, dude, we’re just in this machine right now. It’s a machine of machines. and I don’t know where we’re going, but dude, we’re going there fast. I feel like it’s spinning faster every week. God, it’s overwhelming. And then to have people losing their jobs at tail when it’s just, whoa.

[00:25:37] Robbie Wagner: it’s an interesting situation where, like, on the one hand, I mean, you can’t stop it, I guess. So like, I’m kind of okay with the like quick iteration and it being stolen and then whatever, because that means I don’t ever have to like super configure my stuff. Like Warp and Open Code, do a great job of me telling them nothing and being like, [00:26:00] I want to build this.

[00:26:01] Robbie Wagner: Maybe, maybe I let you look at my code and like, like you can build a Warp MD or whatever. Like, very minimal handholding. And then I’m like, default settings go build me this. And it’s like, that stuff is just gonna get better and better as like all of these like, you know, it’s almost like, algorithms, like, you know, everybody like.

[00:26:18] Robbie Wagner: It was like, oh, what’s the best algorithm for all the things? Like what’s the best sorting algorithm? How do we do that the fastest?

[00:26:24] Robbie Wagner: I think whoever builds the one that basically needs the least handholding is gonna be the winner. Like, I can just tell it in plain English, this is what I want. It will figure out all the nuances of what I meant and like build it the best way. because there’s been a lot of, you know, stuff happening quickly.

[00:26:41] Robbie Wagner: Like every day there’s a new, new way to do all this and tell it all the, give it the most context and like,

[00:26:47] Robbie Wagner: make

[00:26:47] Adam Argyle: Or less contest. Have you seen that? Now it’s like, oh, you gave it too much and that’s why it failed. You’re like, get outta here.

[00:26:54] Adam Argyle: Okay, I don’t think I’ve had the problem of too much context yet.

[00:26:58] Adam Argyle: Oh, that’s totally a thing too. It’s [00:27:00] annoying.

[00:27:00] Robbie Wagner: Until I used open code, I was like super bearish on all of it because if you go into like chat GPT or like Claude Chat or whatever, and you’re like, build me something, it’s like, eh, like unless you’re asking it explicitly, like, I need a function that does this, it’s gonna be like, eh, it’ll give you something.

[00:27:21] Robbie Wagner: But like Open Co or like a agentic, workflows in general I guess are like just so much better than like. A chat bot or like, the initial way that AI was interacted with. So I think maybe this isn’t even close to the end, like we’ll just keep iterating on how we use this. But like, I don’t, I don’t think the models themselves are gonna get all that much better.

[00:27:41] Robbie Wagner: I do think we’ve kind of capped out at like where they are, like it’s gonna be diminishing returns. Or even if it did get a lot better, I feel like you’re gonna have to just spend like 100 x the power and cooling for it to where it’s like not feasible to use. Like, we’re going to burn the planet [00:28:00] up before we get to like a better model, in my opinion.

[00:28:03] Adam Argyle: Yep. I think that’s pretty sound.

[00:28:04] Adam Argyle: , And that, that’s a good segue into like, what is an AI harness? and so it’s like if you look at how bolt and lovable. same dev and a lot of these different websites work is they, , they take your wack ass prompt, your vague, weird sentence that you wrote.

[00:28:18] Adam Argyle: And, the AI harness is all the layers and guards and enhancements that are specific and proprietary to their interpretation of what you said. And this is why lovable results look the way they do. So it’s the same way bolts look the way they do, or if you use Claude directly, the way that it looks based on their AI harnesses that are kind of built into Claude.

[00:28:43] Adam Argyle: And what these are, it’s like a, they take your, it’s like a volt, for example, takes your prompt, , gives it to an orchestrator, asks the orchestrator enhance the prompt, so then it does an enhancement pass. The enhancement pass says, okay, now optimize this for a multi-agent scenario. So divvy out the work , and articulate [00:29:00] backend, front end, all the different tasks.

[00:29:02] Adam Argyle: Then, it gives the tasks to the agents, at which point those come back and it does a critical review of them with a different agent, right? So you could, the harness here is the ecosystem and the cycle, the machine that they put your prompt through that turns it into something bigger and better or than was originally

[00:29:22] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, so it’s their secret sauce that makes

[00:29:24] Robbie Wagner: it

[00:29:24] Adam Argyle: it’s a secret sauce. Totally. and so like, what you’re pointing out is like if the models are towards the best that they’re gonna be, because they are just word prediction machines. They’re not smart, they suck at math, stuff like that. the harnesses are the value and that’s why Claude is probably so badass right now.

[00:29:40] Adam Argyle: It’s, it’s like, it’s got, it’s got a model that’s specifically trained for coding, very highly specialized for coding. Plus they’ve got a lot of, a lot of data on how to make the most badass harnesses. They got badass harnesses. You know, I’m sure Warp is somewhere in the same position and open code is trying to get there.

[00:29:58] Adam Argyle: yeah, I’m glad I have someone to talk to about [00:30:00] this stuff ‘cause no one else in my near vicinity knows anything of what I’m saying. so I appreciate you, Robbie. It’s fun.

[00:30:07] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. That’s what I’m here for. I don’t know what, where it’s gonna go, but it’s, It’s exciting and scary. I’m enjoying using a lot of the things personally, but yeah, I, I can see all of us having no jobs at some point, so I don’t know what happens then. I hope someone has a plan for that other than just there being a thousand rich people and everyone else is unemployed.

[00:30:29] Adam Argyle: I think about it like a, or here, here’s a romantic potential, , which is that did you ever have a old car?

[00:30:35] Robbie Wagner: yes, I did.

[00:30:36] Adam Argyle: okay. Did you ever take it to a mechanic?

[00:30:38] Adam Argyle: because it broke. Alright. So like, that’s gonna be us, bro. Not the car, but the mechanic. We’re gonna be there and be like, oh, you, you, you have a car from the 2010s or you have a website from the 2010s.

[00:30:50] Adam Argyle: I was a mechanic during that time. Yep. I know exactly how all those work. you have a problem with it, just bring it over. I’ll put it in my garage, I’ll fix it up for you and I’ll give it back. [00:31:00] And bro, that’s how we get old man like.

[00:31:03] CTA: This just in! Whiskey.fund is now open for all your merch needs. That’s right, Robbie. We’re hearing reports of hats, sweaters, and T-shirts, as well as a link to join our Discord server. What’s a Discord server? Just read the prompter, man. Hit subscribe. Leave us a review on your favorite podcast app and tell your friends about our broadcast. It really does help us reach more people and keeps the show growing. All right, back to your regularly scheduled programming.

[00:31:36] Robbie Wagner: I guess the one thing that is, that would be my advice to anyone is don’t learn all of the things that everyone knows. tailwind is probably a bad thing to be an expert at because like, that’s what AI’s gonna give you.

[00:31:49] Robbie Wagner: Like, if you learn the things that AI doesn’t have a ton of examples on. Like, ember’s a pretty good example because like nobody uses Ember and if, if there is stuff about Ember out there, it’s like Stack overflow stuff [00:32:00] from like six or seven years ago. So it’s like not relevant to, to current Ember. , But like the more you know about like emerging technologies, like before there’s a lot of documentation about it or like.

[00:32:11] Robbie Wagner: get into the canary versions, get into the niche, things that like people aren’t using learn. C-S-S-C-S-S is also still hard for like, not closed source software, but cascading style sheets. I think that is the future of like, just trying to quickly learn or a niche to like, even if you’re gonna then go turn around and train a small AI model on it to be like, oh, my agency is good at this.

[00:32:34] Robbie Wagner: Like, one thing because I know it and I trained AI on it. And like the big models will get it in a few months, but like right now, pay us a ton of money. Like that could be a, a good business model.

[00:32:44] Adam Argyle: I agree that that niche is ahead of the slop. Or the mainstream output that is coming from ai. So yeah, you’re gonna have, you’re gonna have emerging, groups of people or companies that are like, the reason our shit is badass is because, , we do exactly what [00:33:00] AI can’t or what it won’t, because it’s just so edgy.

[00:33:04] Adam Argyle: the edges might become way more better because the, the mainstream is getting thicker. It’s getting fatter every year. Mainstream music gets bigger and thicker every year and it pushes out indie and smaller things every year. Same thing with web design and applications. We’re seeing the mainstream just get thicker.

[00:33:21] Adam Argyle: And so, yeah, if you want to position yourself, you kind of need to pick position yourself as the factory of these things. So, hey, we stamp out houses all day. I’ll make you a hundred homes in three days with my template and my specialized agents, or I’ll make you a unique super badass house you can’t get anywhere else.

[00:33:41] Adam Argyle: And it costs a hell of a lot of money because this is a human hand done maybe mostly hand done like, oh, here’s money. Did you, did you play, um, expedition 33?

[00:33:51] Robbie Wagner: I did not.

[00:33:51] Adam Argyle: Have you heard of this game?

[00:33:52] Robbie Wagner: I have not.

[00:33:53] Adam Argyle: Oh my goodness, bro. , This game won way, way more awards than Destiny two.

[00:33:58] Robbie Wagner: Well, who didn’t?[00:34:00]

[00:34:00] Adam Argyle: well that’s good point. okay. Expedition 33 was a really, really, I loved it. It was a really, really great, great game. , However, , after it won a bunch of awards, it turned out they used AI for a lot of their prototype textures and some of the prototype textures made it into the final game, at least in like early versions of the final game.

[00:34:20] Adam Argyle: And the gaming industry stripped them of their awards

[00:34:26] Adam Argyle: for using ai. And I was like, that’s really interesting. , Is that gonna happen to our industry too? Like it is, like your app used AI are, are you gonna get

[00:34:35] Adam Argyle: stripped of

[00:34:36] Robbie Wagner: No, I don’t think so.

[00:34:37] Adam Argyle: yeah, I don’t think so either.

[00:34:39] Robbie Wagner: it’s kind of like the illegal versus immoral debate of like, I think for the longest time I was trying to hold out and be like, Hey, if you’re using AI every day to like just build stuff and you don’t know anything about what you’re doing, you’re stupid. Don’t do that.

[00:34:54] Robbie Wagner: but now I’m kind of like, you know what, we don’t actually need to know how most of this works.

[00:34:58] Adam Argyle: Yeah,

[00:34:59] Robbie Wagner: it [00:35:00] does not help me to know how it works. I can like double check the code to make sure it didn’t do something stupid like nest 10 for loops or like, you know, you gotta know like basics, but you don’t really have to know that much about like most things.

[00:35:12] Robbie Wagner: I don’t know. I feel dirty that I like that now, but like. I feel like the, the path of the senior is like gone, like the path of the junior’s already gone, but now it’s just like,

[00:35:24] Adam Argyle: Yes. You’re singing the song, dude, this is why I was all doom and gloom when we joined. Over Christmas break, I needed a banjo tuner on my iPhone and I went to the, app store and I looked for tuners and there were plenty and they all looked like ass. And they were all for guitar and not for banjo.

[00:35:40] Adam Argyle: And, , I went to the Anything app, which, Hey, anything app, if you wanna sponsor us, , write me an email. The Anything app allows you to create a new app from this app so you, it’s Bolt for your iPhone. Okay. So I opened

[00:35:53] Adam Argyle: it

[00:35:53] Adam Argyle: up?

[00:35:54] Robbie Wagner: about this. I didn’t know what it was called, but yeah.

[00:35:56] Adam Argyle: It’s called anything. Dude, I got a banjo app out of it in about 10 [00:36:00] minutes while my kids were getting ready for bed, and it looked really nice and it was all the tunings that I tuned my banjo to and the frequencies, my favorite part was it going through, I’m writing the code for this and I’m just kind of like glazing over looking at what it’s writing and it, , has an array of all the frequencies for the tunings and I’m like, that shit is cool.

[00:36:18] Adam Argyle: That would’ve taken me so long just to find, just to source the data for the frequency of a G-string

[00:36:25] Robbie Wagner: But do you get any kind of satisfaction though? Like, I feel like I’d get a little more satisfaction if it were at least like web technologies, like you’re using web audio API to like do something with the frequency. ‘cause I did this for, , I had an berko talk that was talking to your dog with Ember and it would take dog barks and like, based on the pitch of the dog bark, it would say, are they happy or angry?

[00:36:47] Robbie Wagner: yeah, so I feel like you could do something similar with like, just make a tuner like that, like based on the pitch or whatever. , So that would be more fun to me ‘cause I could then at least understand the code afterwards, like read through it and stuff. But I don’t get any [00:37:00] joy out of like, other than the, like the little bit of like gambler’s satisfaction of like winning when like the prompt goes right and the code does what I wanted it to do.

[00:37:09] Robbie Wagner: That like small dopamine hit, but not like any real

[00:37:12] Adam Argyle: the dopamine hit was not from the dopamine hit, was because I gave a big middle finger to the Apple App Store. That’s where I got my joy, bro. The, and, and the, the follow-up Joy was v one of this app was not tailored enough to what I want before ai, you’d go to a website and be like, it has a dark and light mode toggle for me.

[00:37:34] Adam Argyle: I get to pick my preferences matter. Wow. And you could go choose, you know, like that. That was the amount of customization we had. Now I’m in a scenario where I’m like, who cares what’s in the app store? I make my own apps, and when those apps spin up, I ask for dark mode and it just does, it doesn’t even have a switch.

[00:37:52] Adam Argyle: It’ll just create the dark mode for me on the fly. In fact, all the, I want more tunings. I just, I don’t have to log an issue. I don’t have to write an [00:38:00] email. I don’t have to contact support. This is my software if anything, I had a drop in my stomach because I realized that we’ve always known native apps perform better than the web.

[00:38:12] Adam Argyle: But it was inaccessible. It was inaccessible to create that many native apps that were that high quality , and basically now we’re not there anymore. I felt a deep sink in my stomach because it felt like the web will die because native apps have always been mildly superior and now, it’s accessible to anyone to make one.

[00:38:31] Adam Argyle: And I was like, holy shit, I hate that. But I also love that for myself in a way. Like, oh, great. Everything I’ve ever dreamed for is now possible. Same thing for my mom. , But now what am I gonna do? My, my career has been you need a dark mode toggle. Ooh, that’s gonna be a week of work. Yeah. Let me just go ahead and work on that.

[00:38:49] Adam Argyle: so I don’t know, man. I’m

[00:38:50] Adam Argyle: like,

[00:38:51] Robbie Wagner: difficult , to hand roll because you’ve gotta think about every little color. Unless you’re doing like, and I mean, I’m gonna sound stupid with this, but I think there’s [00:39:00] like a CSS property to say like, , I want this to be like display, text or whatever. So it’s either white or black based on what you’ve chosen.

[00:39:08] Adam Argyle: Color contrast function. Yeah. Me and Yuna pitched that to the CSS working group six years ago.

[00:39:12] Adam Argyle: Yeah,

[00:39:13] Robbie Wagner: Yeah.

[00:39:13] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. So like you can use that, but like, if you’re wanting it to be custom in any way of like. I want to like bespoke when it’s dark, I want it to look the way I want, not just like inverting colors. Then it is a ton of work to figure out like all of

[00:39:29] Robbie Wagner: those colors. yeah, I mean, I feel like you could probably be like, yo, ai, I don’t want, I don’t wanna just invert ‘em. I want like, I want you to draw upon other dark mode websites. I want you to gimme like five options. I’ll tell you which one looks cool yeah, you could be done in minutes. And that’s like, that’s pretty scary.

[00:39:47] Adam Argyle: That’s pretty scary. There’s a, uh, let’s see, I used to call it Lift and Shift. I wrote a blog post about this. I’ll find it and put it in the show notes. Maybe I’d try to look at my website really quick. but it was a, uh. A scenario where like you used to be able to go to a website and like you could view [00:40:00] source, right?

[00:40:00] Adam Argyle: So you would view source now, now you can tell AI to steal source. you go to any website that you like, you like the color scheme and you’re like steal source. And then you switch tabs and you paste source. Like that’s, and AI has made it even easier. So what was the title? This was like, is it even easier with less prompts to steal stuff?

[00:40:18] Robbie Wagner: Is it just stealing with extra steps?

[00:40:21] Adam Argyle: It’s stealing with less steps. And that’s kind of why I think what bugs so many people is like, you can steal art with less steps. You can steal,

[00:40:29] Robbie Wagner: Well, it’s less

[00:40:29] Robbie Wagner: steps for you. I think there’s more steps behind the scenes than just copying and pasting, I think is the more, but yeah, it is. It is very easy for you to steal.

[00:40:39] Adam Argyle: There’s a chrome extension. You can go install it right now and you can go to a website for, , beautiful UI examples. You find the beautiful UI example that you like. You open up in a new tab and then you steal everything and you go back and you’re like, take this entire beautiful aesthetic and [00:41:00] apply it to my garbage idea.

[00:41:02] Adam Argyle: And dude, it’s really good. stupid.

[00:41:05] Adam Argyle: And it’s stupid. That like that, that’s

[00:41:07] Adam Argyle: easy.

[00:41:08] Robbie Wagner: on like non-standard things? Like I’m, I can’t think of the, what the company was, but they had like, they turned their website into like a video game, animation style, like cheetah that like ran around and like, did stuff like, it wasn’t just like boxes. Like is it good enough to steal something like that and be like, oh, instead of a cheetah, I want it to be like an ape.

[00:41:29] Robbie Wagner: Like, can it do, are we there yet? Because if we’re at that, then we’re done. Like, there’s nothing else we need to do.

[00:41:36] Adam Argyle: That’s a good question. I don’t know if it can do that, but it can. it can augment during copy, and it can go as deep as like WebGL effects and stuff like that. So you can be like, this site has whatever going on. I don’t even know, like that’s kind of the point that we’re talking about here is like, you don’t have to know the implementation details.

[00:41:52] Adam Argyle: You just say, my eyes like that copy it, ai, and it just copies it. And you’re like, and that just [00:42:00] stole years of someone’s work,

[00:42:02] Adam Argyle: uh, in an instant and

[00:42:04] Robbie Wagner: somewhat related, , I’m gonna take this a little different course.

[00:42:07] Adam Argyle: Let’s, let’s get off. This is so to me.

[00:42:10] Robbie Wagner: native apps, , you know, like a Mac app, let’s say. what do you think about animations because like desktop apps kind of historically have just all been like, there’s a thing you should be able to click on. The cursor does not change.

[00:42:23] Robbie Wagner: Like, it’s not like a website

[00:42:25] Adam Argyle: Uh, are we doing cursor, mouse, mouse, hand, or not?

[00:42:27] Robbie Wagner: should you have different cursors? Should it animate? Should it show you in some way that it’s clickable or should it, I feel like the default of like 90% of things is, it does nothing. You just like click everything to see if it’s clickable in like a desktop app.

[00:42:39] Robbie Wagner: and like, while I guess that’s a standard for some reason, is that the best for users or like. is it a no-no to like add in nice, delightful animations to that stuff? Or make like a little hand or like make it more fun web-like, I guess like I, I’m asking because like in Swatch I feel like it’s very drab.

[00:42:59] Robbie Wagner: Like I [00:43:00] want it to be better at like delighting people as they move around. But I also don’t want people to be like, oh, that’s just a website that you threw into it. Like it is a website. But like, so I tried before to make it all very default click nothing does anything. Like, you can’t select text anywhere ‘cause it’s an electron app, like the same as you would in a normal app.

[00:43:20] Robbie Wagner: Like, you know, the stuff that I feel like is kind of dumb that it’s a standard, but I don’t know. What are your thoughts on that in general?

[00:43:26] Adam Argyle: I love this topic, Robbie. This is a design discussion and I, I’ve seen this trend, I recap this as, is the Mickey Mouse hand, , valuable to users? Does it inform people that when you hover over a thing and it turns into this shape, which everyone can see, I’m like, I got the thumb out and the index pointer up, which also that icon changed in the macOS release recently and it drove a bunch of people nuts.

[00:43:49] Adam Argyle: ‘cause the thumb is now. , Perpendicular instead of like angular. And everyone’s like,

[00:43:52] Adam Argyle: why’d

[00:43:53] Adam Argyle: you do that? And they’re upset. Oh God, it’s so funny, dude. The conversations. Okay, so I, up until last [00:44:00] year, and I’m, I’m just gonna admit right now, I’m a trend follower. Up until last year, , I put Chris or Pointer on everything that the mouse , could touch that did some shit because I was like, look, it’s obvious.

[00:44:10] Adam Argyle: You’re just making it a no-brainer that when their mouse goes, oh, over a thing and it turns into the Mickey Mouse hand, then voila, they know the click will do something. You don’t have to make the background change. You don’t have to put a border color change. You don’t have to transition or do anything more than cursor pointer and get your result.

[00:44:30] Adam Argyle: However, it is now trendy and I think some of the trends, well, okay, so there’s trend and there’s, , the web platform. If you do nothing on your site, Robbie, what things on your page already , turn to a cursor pointer. And what things don’t

[00:44:47] Robbie Wagner: , I would want to say that anchor tags and buttons do, but I feel like I probably add that into one or the other of them. It’s probably only one of them. It’s probably a trick question.

[00:44:58] Adam Argyle: it is a trick question. So, which one? [00:45:00] Yeah. Yes. Anchors. So, 25, 30 years ago or whatever, the design system choice for the web was, Mickey Mouse cursor for links. That’s it. it.

[00:45:13] Robbie Wagner: Well, the problem is people started going, okay, well this is gonna actually open a new page or route or whatever in your spa, but it’s a button ‘cause it’s doing an action and it takes you and then, then it’s like, oh well, but it’s taking you another page. So it’s actually an anchor tag. And then people probably weren’t changing it from the Mickey Mouse hand, so they’re like, people started seeing that and being like, oh, it is good to say that.

[00:45:37] Robbie Wagner: Like this is clickable. Maybe we should just add cursor pointer to all these also whenever we have any button. I don’t know. I don’t know if there’s a right answer, if it’s just personal preference.

[00:45:46] Adam Argyle: There is no right answer. There is the answer. The web tried to instigate, there’s the reality that users assumed, , just like a blue link. Like that was a, that was a design system decision. , And then there’s the reality of [00:46:00] like, where we are today and what users want when they hover around. and, So tailwind’s an influential, library in this concept of Mickey Mouse or not, because they opt to not. and their templates and their presets and stuff like that.

[00:46:13] Robbie Wagner: Well, they reset everything. They have their own reset, so

[00:46:17] Adam Argyle: Yeah. And they’re gonna, they’re gonna leave buttons and arrows. So it’s like, basically you, you only Mickey Mouse a link and you or you cursor auto, everything else.

[00:46:26] Robbie Wagner: Okay, so then

[00:46:28] Adam Argyle: man, I don’t love that though.

[00:46:30] Robbie Wagner: If we assume that’s the default that we want. If you have a, native app that’s like an electron app or whatever, would you still Mickey Mouse hand links in it? Like if you’re like, uh, you

[00:46:42] Adam Argyle: you should do nothing. Yeah. No Mickey Mouse hands. I don’t, I don’t

[00:46:46] Robbie Wagner: On a native app. Yeah. So that it’s not, I don’t love, I wish that we could just agree that it’s the same on the web and in native apps and like pick a standard and like, then also allow more fun stuff in native [00:47:00] apps.

[00:47:00] Robbie Wagner: Like, I don’t feel like there’s a, and I haven’t developed one in like Swift or you know, whatever. But I feel like there’s not like a framer motion in Swift that’s like, you know what? I want all this stuff to be delightful and do all these crazy animations. I feel like they don’t have that. Maybe they

[00:47:17] Adam Argyle: They do. They do. And it’s,

[00:47:19] Adam Argyle: um, so it’s like a, well, maybe yes, no, no one has the time to polish with a physics, , animation library. But there are high quality, high frame rate, ways for you to bring delight into a Native app, but not with, , not with Electron or whatever. That’s, that’s still gonna

[00:47:37] Adam Argyle: be web, right?

[00:47:38] Adam Argyle: But yeah, if you’re in Swift land, there’s pods, there’s cocoa pods, and there’s even a built-in swift animation library. Here’s a fun thing. I made an, physics library in CSS six years ago. It’s called Physics, F-I-Z-Z-X. And I’ve been recently hacking on it with AI because AI doesn’t know what the fuck I want.

[00:47:58] Adam Argyle: But that does [00:48:00] know physics because it knows how to regurgitate the next thing in a physics equation, I’m no math pro. I prototyped the original version with no ai, but here I’m using AI to like, take me to the next level. It probably crap out amazing. swift or even objective c native physics, , engines.

[00:48:18] Adam Argyle: Like renderings. It just, it doesn’t care. It’s like, look, it’s math man. And math has been consumed and regurgitated across more than just the web. that’s a funny, powerful thing about AI though, is that it doesn’t know why or what it does know. The patterns and the patterns of physics are known.

[00:48:36] Adam Argyle: These are just established and

[00:48:37] Adam Argyle: known,

[00:48:38] Adam Argyle: and it’s been trained on them.

[00:48:39] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. All right, so all I’m hearing is I can add as many animations as I want to swatch, and I shouldn’t worry about it.

[00:48:47] Adam Argyle: you should, you should do that.

[00:48:48] Adam Argyle: Let’s talk about Vibe Kanban as a final capstone on AI and get the hell off of this topic,

[00:48:54] Adam Argyle: because I know it’s consuming all of our lives and it’s overwhelming. Did you see The Post [00:49:00] from the guy? , There’s like, there’s not a godfather of ai, but there’s like a, do I suck at names?

[00:49:03] Adam Argyle: Anyway, there’s someone on Twitter who’s like very known for like, being early in on all of this AI stuff, and he wrote a post over Christmas break that was like, I’m overwhelmed with ai. there’s so much happening, I can’t keep up. And everyone’s like, well, if you can’t keep up. How the hell am I gonna do it?

[00:49:21] Adam Argyle: anyway, we’re like at that scenario, so, so, so vibe CanBan, so like everyone, we’re all in the same boat. We all can’t keep up. That’s kind of what I’m trying to say. Me. I can’t keep up. I’m trying to Robbie, he can’t. , Chuck is way behind actually. He’s probably actually doing okay. I just wanna, I just wanna make fun of Chuck ‘cause he is not here.

[00:49:38] Adam Argyle: He showed me open code’s, , oh, my open code and that shit is actually pretty cool, which we haven’t talked about much, but anyway. Okay, so vibe, CanBan, here’s real quick. Do you say Kanban? Or Kanban?

[00:49:48] Robbie Wagner: Kanban.

[00:49:50] Adam Argyle: Dammit. It does sound cooler. It’s like salsa. it’s, um,

[00:49:53] Robbie Wagner: smoother.

[00:49:55] Adam Argyle: it’s smoother. Okay. So , vibe, Kanban is, , one of many.

[00:49:59] Adam Argyle: Okay. So [00:50:00] again, you’re gonna, you’re gonna see someone steal this idea and make a business out of it really soon. I’m actually, here’s a prediction I have for

[00:50:07] Adam Argyle: 2026. Oh, maybe, uh, 2026 prediction is GitHub’s projects become automatically vibe conbond

[00:50:20] Adam Argyle: with copilot.

[00:50:22] Adam Argyle: So anything you’ve done in there

[00:50:23] Adam Argyle: is about to just auto move into complete hells.

[00:50:26] Adam Argyle: Yeah. Right. Okay. So Vibe, Kanban. Kanban, , you spin this up, opens up in a new tab and instead of writing a new prompt, you create a new task. And the new task targets a branch, targets, , a few basics, and then you give it a prompt that’s like, Hey, I want to add, okay, here’s, here’s the thing I did. I went into my personal website, , issues and I found four issues that have been in there for two years.

[00:50:50] Adam Argyle: Uh, one of them was, I want to show, , page views. I wanna show page visitors, active people on my site. Ah, there was like, there, there were four things I just hadn’t gotten to. [00:51:00] And I created each of these as a to-do in vibe, koban and vibe. Koban takes your, , issue, creates a work tree spins up, Claude feeds it, your repo and the task and auto manages it working across until it hits complete.

[00:51:16] Adam Argyle: So it moves your tasks into being worked on and you can see it and there’s audio. So you got this tab and all of a sudden like AI’s just doing shit and you’re like, holy shit. I have like employees like, like, you know, like agents in your CLI is like one thing. But like when you see issues moving across your swim lanes and across columns inside of a Kanban, you’re like, this is really compelling.

[00:51:40] Adam Argyle: I found it compelling. , I guess I’ll say maybe you won’t. And so yeah, two of my four issues were just completed. they were done by open code. So this was an open code, vibe Kanban scenario. I just gave it shit. Two of them completed, two of them didn’t, and then you can go retry them. Isn’t that funny?

[00:51:59] Adam Argyle: You could retry [00:52:00] and add context. You’d be like, oh, I see how you failed. Let me retry you with some more information, to help you complete it. And that’s what Vibe came. And there’s multiple of them right now. there’s a Claude one. There’s , non Claude ones. There’s some of them are beautiful, some of, and you can tell people vibe coded them, but who cares?

[00:52:16] Adam Argyle: You’re like, I don’t love the CLI, I mean, I do, but at the same time, like I really love watching a task move across a task board and then playing a sound when it’s complete. Like that’s satisfying as hell. Like Warp is the best I’ve had until then. I’d ask something from Warp. Warp does the thing. It makes a little cute little chime says it’s done.

[00:52:38] Adam Argyle: I go check, , whether it’s done or not, I give it some more instruction or it’s done and it’s all good. But Vibe Ban has been one of the most, so over my break over, uh, the past month, this has been the most delightful tool I’ve used, and I found that there’s multiple variants of this, across multiple different implementations and so on.

[00:52:54] Adam Argyle: someone’s going to turn this into a business, but dude, it’s really cool. I’m now a [00:53:00] project manager. This is what I mean. My role is changing. I’m no longer coding. I’m my personal website. I’m a project manager. I’ve got a backlog, and I just send my backlog to a bunch of turd nuggets that are just lackeys in a gas town, and then they, do the work and that this is our future.

[00:53:17] Adam Argyle: And that’s 2026 right

[00:53:19] Adam Argyle: now,

[00:53:19] Robbie Wagner: don’t, I don’t like it. I like that I can build things that I couldn’t have built myself like above my abilities, but I don’t like that it’s taking the work that I thought was fun. ’ cause I’m never gonna have fun again.

[00:53:31] Adam Argyle: It is not fun for me to sit down on my couch and manage a Kanban board. Uh, a hundred percent. I much preferred like dirty hands, satisfying details. A good example is if you make a car, I want to sweat the details. I wanna sit in the driver’s seat and I wanna, and I wanna hold the steering wheel and I’m gonna rub my hands around the edges of it, and I’m gonna be like, Nope, the leather is wrong.

[00:53:58] Adam Argyle: You know, like, this [00:54:00] is, this is my role as a CSS developer. I like sit in there and just like, Hmm, that’s not satisfying enough. I know what texture would be more. And I go, assign a new texture. But dude, with like Vibe Kanban, I’m just like, make a steering wheel and make it drivable. And it’s like the car is drivable and I’m like, this is way less satisfying.

[00:54:17] Adam Argyle: I made five cars and last year I only made one car that was half as good, but. I felt better about last year’s car and this year’s car. Yeah, man. It’s weird.

[00:54:27] Robbie Wagner: to be continued. I don’t wanna, I have more things I could say, but let’s, let’s stop talking about this.

[00:54:32] Adam Argyle: Oh God, sorry. Yeah, we’re at an hour and we had like a huge task list of stuff we wanted to talk about, but

[00:54:37] Robbie Wagner: We can briefly touch on a couple other things maybe real quick.

[00:54:41] Robbie Wagner: , Yeah, let’s

[00:54:41] Adam Argyle: yeah, tell me, tell me, about your Christmas. I had Christmas stitches. Maybe we’ll make that quick, but yeah. Tell me about your Christmas.

[00:54:47] Robbie Wagner: yeah, so we also, I, yeah. I think, , I don’t know if the, uh, the story was similar. I think you, I don’t know if the one you were saying that was similar was another time, or the same time, but Yeah, my son fell and hit his [00:55:00] ear on the coffee table and like almost sliced the ear in half and had to go get that glued like, uh, like December 22nd or third or something.

[00:55:09] Adam Argyle: No way.

[00:55:10] Adam Argyle: Dude, like around the same day that you were, like, you had something similar like what happened with yours?

[00:55:15] Adam Argyle: Okay. So yeah, it was not the Christmas Eve, it was the night before. So it’s literally the 22nd. And yeah, my kid at 10 o’clock at night is brushing his teeth and he, , funs, sneezes, whatever that means. Take this into, anyway, he hits his head on the counter in the bathroom and just rips a inch and a half gash in his head and it just starts gushing blood everywhere.

[00:55:37] Adam Argyle: Yeah. So I’m like, oh man, that looked like, it hurt on, and the Yeah. Uh, yeah, it was like I pivoted from, Hey, that looked like it hurt too. Oh my God. This is leading everywhere. And then we have to rush downtown. Oh, dude. It was wild. Yep.

[00:55:50] Robbie Wagner: Yeah.

[00:55:51] Adam Argyle: That’s so funny. You had a similar thing. I can’t

[00:55:53] Robbie Wagner: yeah, Caitlyn had to take Finn to like urgent care for that, and then they were basically like, Hey, uh, it’s late, [00:56:00] just go to the hospital. so they went to the hospital and Yeah. Got it fixed up. But

[00:56:03] Robbie Wagner: Yeah,

[00:56:03] Adam Argyle: Yeah, we went to er, there was a guy with one leg. He peed his pants while we were watching. Yep.

[00:56:11] Robbie Wagner: interesting. Okay. Okay.

[00:56:13] Adam Argyle: I mean, that’s what happens in the er, downtown,

[00:56:16] Adam Argyle: big city, you

[00:56:16] Robbie Wagner: yeah, all the things happened in the,

[00:56:19] Adam Argyle: yeah.

[00:56:20] Robbie Wagner: yeah.

[00:56:21] Adam Argyle: believe you had a similar experience. That’s wild.

[00:56:23] Robbie Wagner: Other than that, we, uh, yeah, we’re super busy. We like traveled down to my parents for their Christmas party and then came back and then hosted for Christmas. Caitlin’s mom came in and then we, uh, did a bunch of activities. Like we, uh, there’s this big ice thing where they like bring in this team of people from China that are like ice sculpture people, and they do this like whole thing, like they did Polar Express this year.

[00:56:49] Robbie Wagner: So there was like a full size, like life-size train engine out of ice kind of thing. Like, and you walk through all the scenes from Polar Express. They had like the hot chocolate stuff and like all this [00:57:00] different stuff. So that was cool.

[00:57:01] Adam Argyle: People are cool. Can’t use AI to do that, huh?

[00:57:03] Adam Argyle: Yeah.

[00:57:04] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. So that’s, yeah. Gotta find there’s some niche thing.

[00:57:07] Robbie Wagner: Well, I mean, you say that, oh, this keeps, you’re dragging us

[00:57:11] Robbie Wagner: back

[00:57:11] Adam Argyle: I’m so sorry, dude. I didn’t mean to everyone. I’m so sorry. I said ai. I didn’t mean to

[00:57:16] Robbie Wagner: but I can’t, I can’t let it go. There’s, there’s the, have you seen the company that uh, they do like marble statues with like a robot and it uses AI to like, so they’re basically saying they’re gonna make it

[00:57:28] Adam Argyle: Oh shit.

[00:57:29] Robbie Wagner: ‘cause like, you can’t have a marble facade on a building ‘cause it’s expensive. ‘cause there’s like, artisans have to do it all.

[00:57:36] Robbie Wagner: No they don’t. You put it in like a 3D printer for marble and like they’re saying they can, they’re gonna bring back stone on like, you know, all buildings. There’ll be no reason not to use it anymore because it’ll, you can just have it everywhere, which is kind of cool, but also puts a ton of people outta work

[00:57:50] Adam Argyle: Wow.

[00:57:51] Robbie Wagner: anyway.

[00:57:52] Adam Argyle: Geez, Christmas, uh, this is last year. My kids are gonna believe in Santa. Probably. that was fun. They wouldn’t go to bed. I don’t know. So if your parent out [00:58:00] there and your kid didn’t go to bed before Christmas, that’s a stressful time for a child. You know, they’re like, is Santa gonna gimme Cole? Or, or presents?

[00:58:07] Adam Argyle: And you’re like, you better go to sleep. That’s a good way to make sure you don’t get cold.

[00:58:12] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Luckily we haven’t had any trouble with that thus far.

[00:58:18] Robbie Wagner: , But yeah, I mean, I’m, I’m sure there’ll be, I can’t remember ever like being like, you know what, I’m gonna stay up and, and check like, and see if anyone showed up. ‘cause I feel like, yeah, I was always forced to go to bed at some point, but,

[00:58:32] Adam Argyle: Yeah. I

[00:58:32] Adam Argyle: never stayed up. I think I tried one time, but I was a kid. You just can’t, you body’s like, shut down, initiated, and you’re like, d.

[00:58:41] Robbie Wagner: Yep, yep. Yeah, I remember, uh, my cousin and I always used to try to stay up all night just on random nights we’d be like, oh yeah, it’s like 3:00 AM we’re gonna make it. And then we’d be like. You don’t remember anything after that. You’re just out like

[00:58:56] Adam Argyle: It’s like the kids at school that are like, I stayed up all night and then did the, [00:59:00] and I came to school today and I’m like, no, you didn’t staying up all night. It sucks and you’d

[00:59:06] Adam Argyle: look like it So yeah.

[00:59:08] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. The only time I like stayed up all night and did something, I went to like a lock-in at like a church and like stayed up all night for that. And then my dad had me and like, I don’t know, a couple other kids doing like some building something on a dock at the lake. So like I was using like a hammer, right.

[00:59:28] Robbie Wagner: And I had also had a bunch of allergies, so I had like taken a bunch of Benadryl and stuff and I’m like hammering stuff in and like falling asleep while I’m doing it. Like this is, uh, this is not good.

[00:59:38] Adam Argyle: Child labor force. That’s what I hear. Yeah. Yeah,

[00:59:42] Robbie Wagner: yeah. Yeah. He was paying us. It’s fine.

[00:59:47] Adam Argyle: Man. Did you watch Stranger Things? I don’t wanna make this episode longer, but like did.

[00:59:51] Robbie Wagner: No, we’re we might start it tonight. I don’t know. We’ll see. But yeah, we’ve had way too much going on and way too many people staying here and we haven’t had the chance [01:00:00] yet, but,

[01:00:00] Adam Argyle: RRIP, your pup.

[01:00:02] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. Yep.

[01:00:03] Adam Argyle: let’s just share everybody his pup. I had a final day.

[01:00:06] Robbie Wagner: longer. Yeah. Yeah. It was a, it was a rough few days, but, uh, , we’re good now. But yeah, the, uh, the other dog I think was like stooping to his energy level because now he is way hyper all the time.

[01:00:21] Adam Argyle: Yeah. Licking your microphone. Yeah.

[01:00:23] Robbie Wagner: yeah, and before they would just kinda sleep all day. So I thought they would both, they both wanted to sleep all day, but like, I think he was just like, oh, this is what we do.

[01:00:31] Robbie Wagner: And he is like, wait, we don’t have to do that anymore.

[01:00:34] Adam Argyle: Nice. Uh, it’s like, uh, when your spouse is pregnant, you’re like, I’m gonna do the things you do to make you feel better about the things you’re doing. I just wanna, let’s say it’s like empathy, empathy actions. I don’t know.

[01:00:46] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. Oh yeah. I mean, I’ve been eating for two since, uh, Caitlyn first got pregnant with our first child. I need to

[01:00:53] Robbie Wagner: stop that.

[01:00:53] Adam Argyle: two also. Yeah,

[01:00:55] Adam Argyle: I’m like, you eating? I’m eating. Let’s do it. Let’s

[01:00:57] Adam Argyle: go. Yep.

[01:00:58] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. I mean, I don’t really have a, a [01:01:00] resolution per se to, you know, the cliche like lose weight workout stuff, but I definitely want to try to be a little healthier for sure.

[01:01:07] Adam Argyle: Yeah, that was on our docket for things. I have no resolutions, but I do have the kind of proclamation that I made, a month ago or so, which was, , overwhelmed with open source. I’m overwhelmed with standards, I want to create quality, and quality does not mean quantity. I’m my

[01:01:26] Adam Argyle: 2026 is a shift to quality over quantity.

[01:01:31] Adam Argyle: I will be reducing a lot of my engagements, a lot of the things that I do, ‘cause I think it’s better if I create less, but more than more. That is less. And so, hey, that’s, oh shit. You know what that back to

[01:01:46] Robbie Wagner: That’s quotable.

[01:01:46] Adam Argyle: yeah. Ai, it’s a, it’s ai, AI is, quantity over quality, and I’m here for quality over quantity.

[01:01:54] Adam Argyle: So anyway, that’s, that’s

[01:01:56] Adam Argyle: that’s my 2026.

[01:01:57] Robbie Wagner: know what AI can’t do though? [01:02:00] Show up to conferences and podcasts in person. So we’ll still be doing that this year.

[01:02:05] Adam Argyle: Yeah, we will, yeah, we’re planning, uh, couple of things like, uh,

[01:02:09] Adam Argyle: Atlanta, I think. Yeah.

[01:02:11] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. I haven’t worked out all of them and the details, but ideal ones are React Miami, , render a TL, Cascadia, perhaps.

[01:02:21] Adam Argyle: Which is, dude, you should put it in CFP right now. Do it today.

[01:02:25] Adam Argyle: Uh, we’ll talk about it after the show. It’s open it and they’re, they’re hungry. Dude, I think you should get in on that

[01:02:31] Robbie Wagner: I can just, uh, put in is AI just stealing with extra steps?

[01:02:35] Adam Argyle: and say like, Adam referenced me. It’s

[01:02:37] Adam Argyle: great.

[01:02:38] Adam Argyle: I.

[01:02:38] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. Yeah. but yeah, I heard good things about that conference, so I would like to, to do something there. And, uh, I’m trying to think of, I thought there was an Oh, oh yeah. The one that I’ve been doing, which we will probably continue, is, uh, all Things Open in Raleigh.

[01:02:55] Adam Argyle: Yeah, I kind of wanna go to this year and bring the fam, it sounds family friendly. That sounds[01:03:00]

[01:03:00] Adam Argyle: really, really cool. I’m super into that.

[01:03:03] Robbie Wagner: so I mean those three possibly. And then I don’t, I don’t think I’d try to do more than three

[01:03:09] Robbie Wagner: necessarily,

[01:03:09] Adam Argyle: at CSS day, that’s like the one I signed up for. I’m, , I’m talking less in 2026. I will be talking at CSS day and I’m , in conversations right now with, , multiple speakers and the, , person throwing it to make sure we don’t stomp on each other’s talks. So.

[01:03:26] Robbie Wagner: That’s

[01:03:26] Adam Argyle: Anyway, be ready for Amsterdam CSS day, which is the peak of CSS at all.

[01:03:33] Adam Argyle: So anyway, if you care about that, go there, be there.

[01:03:36] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. It’s an excuse to go to Amsterdam. Check it out.

[01:03:39] Adam Argyle: Which is a lovely city. It’s not the city you think it is. In fact, , weed is no longer allowed to be smoked openly in the streets. That’s

[01:03:48] Robbie Wagner: Really?

[01:03:48] Adam Argyle: Amsterdam is.

[01:03:49] Adam Argyle: Yeah.

[01:03:50] Robbie Wagner: not New York City?

[01:03:53] Adam Argyle: Or Seattle. Oh, shit. You walk around Seattle or Portland, you’re like, Hmm, the smell of skunk in the [01:04:00] morning.

[01:04:01] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. I mean, I’m fine with like, do whatever you want, but yeah, it is, it’s weird to me to just be openly doing that. It feels, feels weird, like you’re supposed to be hiding

[01:04:09] Adam Argyle: Amsterdam. Amsterdam was like, look, it was cute for a while, but now it’s ruining tourism. So tourists don’t wanna smell your weed when they’re walking through the, canals. So we’ve banned it. And you’re like, oh, that was your stick. I guess your stick is gone. Okay.

[01:04:26] Robbie Wagner: Speaking of being gone, we are now also gone. This is the end. We’ve talked a lot. If you liked it, please subscribe. Leave us ratings and reviews. We appreciate it, and we’ll catch you next time.

[01:04:36] Outro: You’ve been watching Whiskey Web and Whatnot. Recorded in front of a live studio audience. What the fuck are you talking about, Chuck? Enjoyed the show? Subscribe. You know, people don’t pay attention to these, right? Head to whiskey.fund for merchant to join our Discord server. I’m serious, it’s like 2% of people who actually click these links. And don’t forget to leave us [01:05:00] a five star review and tell your friends about the show. All right, dude, I’m outta here. Still got it.