Whiskey Web and Whatnot

A whiskey fueled fireside chat with your favorite web developers.


128: The Missteps of GraphQL and the Promise of Progressive Enhancement

Show Notes

In this episode of 'Whiskey, Web, and Whatnot', hosts RobbieTheWagner and Charles William Carpenter III debate podcast names, discuss the feasibility of creating a company, and share insights on tech projects like Biome and Shepherd. They also talk about the importance of leveraging built-in features in tech systems, their take on tech wars, thoughts about the future of JavaScript, and more. Accompanying their tech-related discussions are whiskey tasting notes on Sweetens Cove, Tennessee Straight Bourbon Whiskey.

Key Takeaways

  • [00:37] - The Reality of Being a CEO
  • [01:39] - The Mystery of HTMX
  • [02:16] - Whiskey Tasting: Sweetens Cove
  • [03:06] - The Science of Whiskey Aging
  • [03:21] - The Curious Case of Soft Water
  • [03:42] - Pop Culture References and Whiskey
  • [07:33] - Whiskey Rating and Review
  • [15:52] - Tech Talk: GraphQL and Sidebar Placement
  • [20:23] - The Future of OpenAI
  • [26:47] - Social Media Algorithms and Engagement
  • [29:12] - Ubuntu Server and Daily Use Challenges
  • [30:08] - Exploring Framework Laptops and Modular Tech
  • [30:52] - The Linux User Experience: A Developer's Perspective
  • [32:32] - The Pros and Cons of Arch Linux
  • [33:31] - The Future of Linux and the Framework Laptop
  • [34:08] - The Struggles of App Development on Ubuntu
  • [36:27] - The Rise of New JavaScript Runtimes
  • [37:45] - Exploring Biome: A New Web API Framework
  • [49:39] - The Future of Shepherd: A Library for Web APIs
  • [55:19] - Christmas Shopping Habits and Affiliate Programs

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[00:00:05] Robbie: What's going on, everybody? This is the podcast formerly known as Men Growing Beards and Sleeping on Chairs, now known as Whiskey, Web, and Whatnot. You've got myself, Robbie the Wagner, and my co host, Charles William Carpenter III.

[00:00:23] Chuck: I was gonna propose the title of men pretending to be CEOs, as if they are important. But Robbie thought that was too long.

[00:00:31] Robbie: yes. Yeah, you have a max character limit for podcast titles. But we are technically both CEOs as of this moment.

[00:00:41] Chuck: yeah, anybody could do that though. Just so you know. You just incorporate for a few bucks whatever it costs, and and then just call yourself that

[00:00:51] Robbie: Yeah, you don't even have to do that much, right? Like you can just say, like, people don't realize that you can just do the little copyright symbol on your website. And that [00:01:00] like, that's like 50 percent of the way there. Like you don't have to do all the legal shit.

[00:01:04] Chuck: I didn't even file this copyright, but I did tell you it was copyrighted, so, or trademark pending or things of that nature. I, apparently these days, you can just go on Twitter and say, I'm the CEO of HTMX. So let's just say that. I am the HTMO. H, T, ooh,

[00:01:21] Robbie: the CMX.

[00:01:22] Chuck: do da ba da ba dibbidy ba. I am the CEO of HTMX officially declared here.

[00:01:28] Robbie: of HTML.

[00:01:29] Chuck: Mm hmm. That's a programming language. Patent

[00:01:32] Robbie: hmm more more so than htmx

[00:01:38] Chuck: you go. Yeah, because htmx is a library.

[00:01:41] Robbie: Yeah, I love that everyone is like Is htmx a real thing or a meme because I can't tell and i'm like honestly I can't tell either but I think it's mostly a meme

[00:01:53] Chuck: I will, I love how much, like, It's funny to say this, but [00:02:00] traditional or legacy web application frameworks have embraced htmx. They're like, Finally, I don't have to fuck with react. Anyway,

[00:02:10] Robbie: Nobody wants to fuck with react you heard it here first

[00:02:12] Chuck: It fucks with you though, and

[00:02:14] Robbie: tell us about the sweeten's cove chuck

[00:02:16] Chuck: Okay, so today's whiskey is Sweetin's Cove, Tennessee Straight Bourbon. It is aged 13 years at a proof of 100.

  1. Today's mash bill is 84 percent corn, 8 percent rye, and 8 percent malt. That's correct. That adds up to 100.

[00:02:36] Robbie: This shit also, sorry to derail you, but 50. 3 percent alcohol, really? Why could we not level this out at 50 or 51 or, it's just, just where it tasted just right I guess.

[00:02:48] Chuck: Yeah, yeah, I mean, because there's no, like, what did it go into the barrel? So Tennessee whiskey isn't,

[00:02:57] Robbie: be high, I mean, they, they [00:03:00] water everything down, right? Like

[00:03:01] Chuck: yeah, you proof it, it's called proofing it down, is what it's called. But it's basically adding water. Right? Yes. Yeah, because water goes away in the aging process. It's not, it's in Tennessee. Everything's

[00:03:11] Robbie: Tennessee water.

[00:03:13] Chuck: As soon as you cross the border, there's no limestone. It's so weird. That's exactly where they created the border.

[00:03:18] Robbie: water becomes soft when you cross the border. No limestone.

[00:03:21] Chuck: Isn't soft water just high minerals? It's just maybe

[00:03:24] Robbie: Yeah, it's lime, which is from limestone, right? Am I wrong? I don't know.

[00:03:29] Chuck: I know that Kentucky water has the limestone and does soften it, but does that mean all softened water is limestone influenced? There's so many questions here. More, more than there's answers. Here's my big question.

[00:03:41] Robbie: on the softness

[00:03:42] Chuck: Did Kimmy Gibbler, did Kimmy Gibbler or no, not Kimmy Gibbler. It was Stephanie Tanner.

Did she have anything to do with this? Right? Wasn't that the Jodie Sweetin? Wasn't that the middle sister on No, okay.

[00:03:56] Robbie: On what? I, I don't know. I mean, you know a lot of things that [00:04:00] I don't know.

[00:04:01] Chuck: You heard it here folks, I know a lot of things that you don't know.

[00:04:05] Robbie: our ages, you know more things than I know about certain things.

[00:04:08] Chuck: right, yeah, you weren't born yet when oh I can't even, now I, now I already lost it. You know, it was the Bob Saget, like, TV

[00:04:16] Robbie: Oh Full House?

[00:04:17] Chuck: Full house, fuller house was the,

[00:04:19] Robbie: It was Jodi. I don't

[00:04:22] Chuck: Jodie Sweetin. Anyway, she has nothing to do with this. Does she live in Tennessee now?

[00:04:27] Robbie: have anything to do with

[00:04:28] Chuck: It would be a great story, wouldn't it though?

Like if she, like, took all her full house money and, you know, bought a farm in Tennessee.

[00:04:35] Robbie: Yeah, that's possible.

[00:04:37] Chuck: Yeah. Okay. Well, let's try this one.

[00:04:40] Robbie: It says, a state of mind, a place on the map, share it, savor it, Sweetens Cove. So I guess it's a place, Sweetens Cove.

[00:04:48] Chuck: Speaking of Sweetins. It's very sweet smelling.

[00:04:52] Robbie: Yeah.

[00:04:53] Chuck: 84 percent corn will really do you. Yeah, birthday cake! I was totally gonna say like, birthday cake, rice crispy. [00:05:00] Like, that's what it reminds me

[00:05:01] Robbie: Like, I'm not getting any burn on the nose. It's all, yeah, a lot of marshmallow for sure.

[00:05:05] Chuck: hmm. Yeah. Okay, let's get in here. Okay, I get a little bit of like, kind of like, a little bit of like, burny sugar there. But still sweet, initially.

[00:05:26] Robbie: is not hugely different from the smell. There's, there's some marshmallow to it, especially at the end, like lingering, a little bit of marshmallow. It's definitely more burned, like it's like you lit a marshmallow on fire, and let it burn for a couple seconds and then ate it. Which is a yummy flavor, I don't, don't mind

[00:05:44] Chuck: quite good so far.

[00:05:45] Robbie: Yeah.

[00:05:48] Chuck: Hmm. A little bit of like, lemony. Slight lemon to it. In the finish for me. [00:06:00] As it kind

[00:06:01] Robbie: keeps going back to birthday cake for

[00:06:03] Chuck: Yeah,

[00:06:03] Robbie: It is

[00:06:04] Chuck: as that.

[00:06:05] Robbie: It's, it's weird. It's like, it's the, it has a ton of smoke in the initial taste. And that almost brings me to like, a scotch y flavor. But then before it goes over the hill and sucks like a scotch does, it's like, yummy. Like,

[00:06:22] Chuck: I don't think that I would, yeah, yeah, no. I think I'm there with you, but it just doesn't quite have like a smoke to me. It has more of like a char of

[00:06:32] Robbie: Sure, sure. Yeah.

[00:06:33] Chuck: Like you said, like, you roasted a marshmallow, you blackened a little bit of it, and it has that little char at the beginning, and then you're like, Ooh, gooey, delicious marshmallow.

[00:06:42] Robbie: it is more like the actual char versus the vapors coming off of it. I was just generalizing with words.

[00:06:50] Chuck: Aren't we all?

[00:06:51] Robbie: Yeah, but I think it's really good. I think if you like scotch, you would like it. You may not like the finish, [00:07:00] but like initially it punches you in the mouth like a scotch would. And I like that it's got that going and the like mild cakey taste with like, this is just It doesn't have any like flavoring or like, I don't know, like they did a great job of this being different than anything else I've had with not doing anything that different, it's like a mostly corn, not that like, not that much proof to it, you know, it, you would think it wouldn't have a lot going on, but it does.

[00:07:29] Chuck: Hmm. Yeah. I agree with that. I think it's I agree that it's quite good. So when we rate it, and here you are, listener, remember, just in case you forgot from last week, we use a tentacle scale. It's from zero to eight. Zero being horrible. Clearly, we're not going to go that direction. Four being like, as is fine.

And eight being quite amazing. How would we categorize this one though? Because we tend to like segment. Is it a bourbon or is it a Tennessee whiskey? Is it both?

[00:07:58] Robbie: Cause they say both.[00:08:00]

[00:08:00] Chuck: Yeah. So, technically, many Tennessee whiskeys, like Jack Daniels, are bourbon for all intents and purposes, from Mashbill and all the other

[00:08:09] Robbie: Yeah, they just filter

[00:08:11] Chuck: not flavored. So, you know.

[00:08:14] Robbie: Yeah. I think, okay, so let's do, let's do both. So from a bourbon standpoint, this is quite possibly the best bourbon I've had

[00:08:24] Chuck: Hmm.

[00:08:26] Robbie: because most bourbons don't do much for me, and this has a lot going on. So in a bourbon standpoint, I would give this an eight

[00:08:34] Chuck: Whoa.

[00:08:37] Robbie: I don't know, because we had some good ones at Greenbrier.

Is it Greenbrier's it

[00:08:41] Chuck: Yep. Greenbrier. Yep.

[00:08:43] Robbie: Yeah. But I don't fully remember them, so I

[00:08:46] Chuck: Ha ha ha.

[00:08:46] Robbie: I don't know, like, not that I was like wasted then or whatever, but like, I just don't, we tasted like five or six, so like, I don't remember them all. And I'm sure some of them are pretty good, but this is quite possibly both the best [00:09:00] bourbon and the best Tennessee whiskey I have had.

And I will give this an eight, because this is amazing.

[00:09:05] Chuck: Wow. Okay. You heard it here, folks. You got an eight

[00:09:09] Robbie: Yeah.

[00:09:10] Chuck: and I don't, I don't think I'm far off from you. I think I'm think I'm considering it from a different perspective though. So from just a straight bourbon perspective, we have had a lot of really good things. So like even like the Bardstown we had recently, I think it's pretty tasty.

We've had some different Bardstowns. There's a rabbit hole we had that was quite good. We had,

[00:09:31] Robbie: been a while ago,

[00:09:32] Chuck: we've had a couple of barrels that are also quite good. We've had some weird and fucked up ones, but we've had some very good ones. So from that perspective, I kind of lump it into that. Like, this is very tasty and interesting.

Like some of those were, and I definitely would reach for this more. I'm probably going to reach for this a lot more tonight.

[00:09:52] Robbie: Let's qualify a little bit more, though. Like, they didn't age this in anything Like, a port barrel or a Like, [00:10:00] this is just a barrel. A normal barrel with normal Tennessee whiskey mash

[00:10:04] Chuck: Just straight up whiskey.

[00:10:05] Robbie: I think doing that, it is the best execution I have had. Now, if you count barrels being in Port or Cabernet or different kind like those are potentially tastier than this, but they've done more things like I think this is the best

[00:10:19] Chuck: not a finished whiskey. I agree, not a finished whiskey. I need to go back to some of those because I'm a big fan of things like Makers has the 46 cast strength that I think is very flavorful and delicious. So in the bourbon world, I feel like there's some other things that I like a lot also, and I kind of like put this in that pot.

So I would give it a 7 in that world very easily. Definitely would come back a bunch. I'll probably talk about this with some of my, you know, whiskey crew offline in a Tennessee whiskey. It's just no doubt. Like this is. This is a slam dunk. This is an eight, a hundred percent of the time. And I, you know, I like some of the Greenbrier [00:11:00] expressions and some dickle and things like that, that I've had that are pretty good, but this is far superior to those.

So in that sense, it's definitely an eight. So, yeah, I, I, here we are. I think we've hit the pinnacle of something that like is a clear winner to us in some

[00:11:18] Robbie: I'm surprised like I was expecting it to be hype like a cool looking bottle that costs a lot of money Is usually not that tasty. Like it's usually not bad because you've paid a lot for it and they put a lot of work into it and it's fine. But yeah, this, this punch is above its price point. I would say like

[00:11:38] Chuck: Right.

[00:11:39] Robbie: I, having not had anything really pricey, like a pappy or anything yet, which we should change, we should do that maybe like where we can get a shot of it versus buying a bottle, but Yeah, this, this is one of the best ones I've ever had and I am, I don't really have anything bad to say about it.

[00:11:56] Chuck: Hmm. Well, having had Pappys, [00:12:00] and I've had all of them, I think, actually, throughout life I would say, and again, this is just kind of my own opinion of things, now at retail, Pappy is a great value. A secondary that isn't like off the fucking charts. It's still pretty decent but you're still getting really good stuff when you could like pick up Weller Antique 107 or the the 12 year Weller.

Like those were still doing pretty good in comparison to me. Like I felt like these are still pretty good too so like I don't need to chase that all the time. Happy 23 for me is just way too old, way too like woody and deep and just like it just Too much spice with the sweet, because it is a weeded bourbon.

Yeah, 15 was like my sweet spot, but again, like, there's a certain price where it just didn't feel worth it. So I would say, like, this is delicious. I would take this over that, because I'm not gonna pay that. That isn't [00:13:00] any miles better than this, by all means.

[00:13:03] Robbie: Yeah.

[00:13:03] Chuck: So, here we are. Alright.

[00:13:07] Robbie: are. This is what our third eight or something. I forget what we've given an eight. Not much.

[00:13:13] Chuck: Not much.

[00:13:14] Robbie: And it's high praise.

[00:13:15] Chuck: Yeah, here it is. We're setting some standards for folks and yeah, and it, you know, so regressing back to some of your points around like I just have like a lot of these micro distilleries coming out Oftentimes just sourcing things and whatever else and you're like you get okay product you get some nice packaging It's heavily marketed and then it's sort of like to try them.

It's 60 to 80 dollars out of it out of the gate And 80 to be like, I don't know, I got to trust your palate for me. Like, I don't know. I'd rather get a tried and true half that price or less. Like I'm just less incentivized to like go down these paths. And so to get something that actually ends up kind of delivering.

is nice, because I'm not blown [00:14:00] away by their website by all means. I went there to get some

[00:14:02] Robbie: Oh, I haven't, I haven't checked their website.

[00:14:04] Chuck: I usually get the whiskey info. So I go to the website first and then I kind of go from there if they don't give much, but, and this is available at seal box and the wine spot. So,

[00:14:15] Robbie: Yeah. It's available kind of everywhere. Like I think I got mine at the ABC store.

[00:14:20] Chuck: Oh really?

[00:14:21] Robbie: And I think after I got it, like, you, sometimes I'll go and get, like, the five most interesting things they have and then just make sure they get sent to you if they're not, like, a

[00:14:30] Chuck: Yeah. Yeah. Cause you get better prices, the ABC, they're like, you know, all normal. And then you're like, well, online I can find a lot.

[00:14:37] Robbie: Yeah, I think I paid, like, 125 maybe, or something.

And I think online now it's, like, 200 ish, and,

[00:14:44] Chuck: I did see it at Sealbox for like 2. 15. It was like 1. 80 or something at DeWine Spot, but it might, who knows, you know, if that goes up as availability. So, so there you go. Pay a little more, get a little [00:15:00] more in this instance. So that's good. Yeah, because that price definitely carries some weight.

I think that like, that's not approachable for everyone. This is like a nice one to have in your cabinet for a while. Share with people you actually like, which means not your family.

[00:15:15] Robbie: Yeah, this is one I will not be giving away. I give most of them away. Like, people come visit and I'm like, Take two or three whiskeys with you, because I don't need them.

[00:15:22] Chuck: Exactly. Yeah. All right. Are we gonna hot takes each other? Is that

[00:15:28] Robbie: I don't know. I was like, we haven't talked about these. We've given our opinion on, like, the ones we've been doing, but not these newer ones. I didn't know if we wanted to talk about them, or if we want to skip them and go straight to normal tech.

[00:15:41] Chuck: let's see here. I don't know. I mean, do you want to give your opinion on these things? I mean, the last one could be possible, but.

[00:15:49] Robbie: Yeah, I don't care. I mean, the first couple, I think are pretty quick. GraphQL was definitely a mistake. No discussion involved. No, I'm just kidding.

[00:15:56] Chuck: but I think that it's not like this panacea that [00:16:00] has changed the API world that we originally thought three, four years ago.

[00:16:04] Robbie: Yeah, no, I think, I think I said this on a recent one where we asked someone this, where I was basically like the things that it brought to light of like, let's request only the things we need and like keep our responses small. Like, I think that those kinds of ideals that it introduced. Thanks. Are very important the same way that like, I think react is not that great.

I think it introduced a lot of important ideals too. So like similar there, I think it's like it moved us forward. It got like, it moved the status quo higher to where it's like, we don't all just be like, Oh yeah, we'll use whatever. And we don't care about the format and how much we're sending or whatever.

Like it, it's enabled us to move forward. But I think using it blindly now as like, it's the thing you use kind of is what it was for the last, like, What eight years or something like I think now it's less like okay That's the thing I'm definitely gonna use and more like I like some of the things that gave [00:17:00] me But what else can I use that does that?

[00:17:02] Chuck: yeah, exactly that. I think we're actually at a. tipping point in a bunch of these things that like new tools every 15 seconds, but also a lot of iterations over existing tools and there's not really a right decision more in like You just need to learn to be a master of your tool or like learn how to work hard to make it work.

Well And that's really what it matters, but for the most part, like, that's where you're coming up with, you know, it's like you can even use Ember today and run your SPA and then just get really good at fine tuning it and finding ways to make it efficient

[00:17:43] Robbie: yeah,

[00:17:44] Chuck: react or next or whatever else, who knows?

[00:17:47] Robbie: I mean the theme with everything is like leverage what's built in

[00:17:51] Chuck: Mm

[00:17:52] Robbie: we have view transitions now, which I don't know how to Ember yet But I'm working on it. Like there's got to be a like route [00:18:00] will transition That's like skip the transition, do my like view transition thing and then do the trans or like whatever it is, but like, I haven't figured out how to make it work, but once you figure those like glue pieces out into every framework, you can just use the native view transition stuff and you can be as specific as you want in your CSS of like, this thing should like slide 20 pixels down and like fade in and like do all like you can be really granular And we don't need then like ember animated or liquid fire or like any of the things like, like green sock.

Like I guess we didn't mention it on the podcast where we were pre gaming before the podcast. So we've talked about green socks. Like we, you probably don't need that as much because like you can do all of this. Like, I think the browser is really going to be very powerful for all of these things

[00:18:52] Chuck: Yeah. And that's kind of the point I think of a lot of things that have come up in tech Twitter and whatever is that these, [00:19:00] these baseline tools are more empowered now and we don't need to work around them as much as we used to per se, like, right, like if you were starting fresh thing today. Obviously, if you're in the trenches in a three, four, five, 10 year old application, who knows?

Like you have different choices to make obviously along the way. But if you're thinking from zero, you know, use the tools of the web first before you start laying or layering on complexity, I think so.

[00:19:33] Robbie: Yeah, anyone that's thinking about, like, should I build this component for XYZ if it exists in native at all, like color pickers date pickers, time pickers, all these different things that there are libraries for, you could do your own libraries for, all these things, use the native one, and when product tells you, oh, I want it to look a little different, be like, no, we want it to work well for the users and adapt to the device they're on.

[00:19:59] Chuck: [00:20:00] yeah,

[00:20:00] Robbie: if they happen to be on a subpar device that does it weird, that we don't like the look of it, that's fine because it will work perfectly. It might not look beautiful, but it's going to work perfectly. And the looks are improving. Like they're allowing you to change things with CSS more and more to where we should lean into that native stuff and then worry about the style later.

[00:20:22] Chuck: Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of like the progressive web app ideology of like, use as much of whatever is on the platform you're accessing this with. Make it as friendly as possible to that access, you know, to that particular device. And then sort of pepper in. Niceness. Yeah.

[00:20:44] Robbie: Yeah. Progressive enhancement.

[00:20:46] Chuck: What a novel concept. Trademark. Don't let anybody say that. But from here on out, if anybody says progressive enhancement. They owe us 50 cents, American, [00:21:00] because I'm not taking your, I'm not taking your Canadian cents.

[00:21:04] Robbie: Yeah. I used to always get like a Canadian coin every, like couple times a year with like change from like Wendy's or something. Like, I'm like, how does that happen? Like, I guess there's, you know, someone in like rural Virginia happened to be traveling to Canada and had like a coin in their pocket on accident.

They're like,

[00:21:26] Chuck: and they used it. They were like, how do I get rid of it? Rural Virginia. Yeah, that's how I get rid of my pesos and anything

[00:21:32] Robbie: You go to rural Virginia?

[00:21:33] Chuck: Yeah, I just get a rural Virginia and I go to Wendy's or an Arby's, you know, and that's it. They have the meats and they have the foreign currency. It's a foreign currency exchange, they just didn't know.

[00:21:45] Robbie: Mexican restaurants that you could just probably spend it at, but

[00:21:49] Chuck: ha! Well, what if they're Argentinian pesos? See? There's so many different ways you can go with that. Yeah.

[00:21:57] Robbie: Yeah. And what if the restaurant is not [00:22:00] truly Mexicans, but people masquerading as

[00:22:02] Chuck: Right. Right, exactly. And also, if they are truly Mexicans, they're like, What the fuck? I don't want this. You know how much this is worth? This

[00:22:11] Robbie: no one in America wants that.

[00:22:13] Chuck: You're right. Wait, I came here to not get these. A dollar is not four cents, brah. You know, anyway.

[00:22:22] Robbie: Anyways, yes, this is a ridiculous rabbit hole. Let's move to the next thing.

[00:22:27] Chuck: Rabbit Hole Whis Today's episode is brought to you by Rabbit Hole Whiskey. No, I'm just kidding. It's not. Yeah, the Derringer is one of my favorites, because it's one of the two I've tried.

[00:22:38] Robbie: Yeah.

[00:22:39] Chuck: if we were like Whiskey Ginger, sponsored by Rabbit Hole Whiskey, we could actually say that. Yeah, they are. Have you listened to that podcast?

Because he says it like four times.

[00:22:48] Robbie: I have not listened to it. I, it has come up several times searching for podcasts around whiskey,

[00:22:53] Chuck: Mm hmm. Yeah, it's a comedy one. Very well structured.

[00:22:57] Robbie: Hmm. Okay. Well, I'll check it out. [00:23:00] Speaking of comedy, would you ever put your sidebar on the right side of VS code?

[00:23:05] Chuck: I like it in theory. In practice, I'm lazy and leave things at default for the most part because like I would, I remember doing it in Sublime Text or something for a while ago and be like, this is great. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, and then you move on to the next thing or you move on to a new computer.

So everything kind of resets a little bit and and then you don't do it. You just do your Move forward. Yeah.

[00:23:31] Robbie: Yeah. Yeah. I don't think I would ever care enough to move it. And if I did, like, I don't really use it a ton because like when you have more than, I don't know, 25 files, you're just searching for them anyway.

[00:23:46] Chuck: Oh, right. Yeah.

[00:23:47] Robbie: you don't need a sidebar. You're just, yeah. So I don't, I don't know any of the real commands.

Cause I use the IntelliJ mapped. commands. So for me, it's like shift command O is how I search for [00:24:00] files. Yeah. So you guys are like command, whatever. And I'm like, I don't know what you're talking about. Like, it's not that for me.

[00:24:07] Chuck: or it's, yeah, it's command P and this shift command P for like things like show preview or whatever. So

[00:24:16] Robbie: should turn that off and just learn the real ones.

[00:24:19] Chuck: maybe you shouldn't learn NeoVim on a Kinesis 360.

[00:24:25] Robbie: Oh yeah. That's, that's true. I should probably do that.

[00:24:28] Chuck: If you're ever going to stream, that's what has to happen. So

[00:24:32] Robbie: I have the keyboard. Honestly, the, the, One of the highest reasons I won't use it right now is it's Bluetooth, which sounds cool, but you can only Bluetooth to one thing at a time. So if I'm switching from my desktop to my work machine, I'm going to have to go like disconnect, Bluetooth connected to this one.

So I need something that like plugs in. And if I'm going to plug it in, then I have wires going. It doesn't have like a plugin sensor I can plug in. [00:25:00] You know what I mean? Like, so my current keyboard and mouse are from Logitech. Who should also sponsor us?

[00:25:06] Chuck: Yeah, yeah. I think I have the same mouse.

[00:25:09] Robbie: yeah, you do. You just have the white one.

[00:25:11] Chuck: Yeah.

[00:25:13] Robbie: So you can

[00:25:14] Chuck: I want more

[00:25:15] Robbie: new roadcaster

[00:25:16] Chuck: I just want, I have this one for

[00:25:18] Robbie: You want more privilege. You want pseudo access. Yeah.

[00:25:23] Chuck: Pseudo give me, I don't know, I don't know what, I mean

[00:25:28] Robbie: No, pseudo is privileged. That's, that was the

[00:25:29] Chuck: Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I got it. Pseudo make me a sandwich. It's my favorite XKCD comic. You ever

[00:25:36] Robbie: is there one of those? They go like, make me a sandwich.

[00:25:38] Chuck: it says make yeah, make me a sandwich and the wife says no then says pseudo make me sandwich Okay, it's great It's like such nerd jokes, you know,

[00:25:51] Robbie: Oh, I love it.

[00:25:53] Chuck: hmm

[00:25:54] Robbie: All right. Yeah. I don't know if we want to get deep into his open eye AI dead now. [00:26:00] I think it's, it's less performant and it's like, it's in a weird limbo state, but I think it's gonna make it.

[00:26:06] Chuck: Yeah, I think it's gonna make it. I think it's got a lot of hype behind it Plus like I don't give a shit what you call it Google. I don't want to use it You know you, you,

[00:26:16] Robbie: You don't want to

[00:26:17] Chuck: spin up not for 20, well, I already pay 20 a month. I don't want to pay someone else 20 a month to try their thing.

[00:26:22] Robbie: Wait, do you have to pay for it? I thought it was included in

[00:26:25] Chuck: premium plus, plus, premium

[00:26:28] Robbie: got plus.

[00:26:29] Chuck: you do?

You pay 20 a month already then?

[00:26:31] Robbie: I, no, I paid the yearly fee, which is like 30 percent off. So I was just like, give me all that shit. Cause I thought it would give me like even more like ranking power. And it's actually like, I feel like the more and more money I give them, the less and less I rank, like I get

[00:26:46] Chuck: Yeah, I hardly see your tweets.

[00:26:47] Robbie: yeah, like I have like, you know, 6, 000 followers or whatever.

And I get like 200 views on a thing. So I'm like. I think it's like actively deranking me like for having this. I [00:27:00] don't

[00:27:00] Chuck: you, you know how this partnership works, right? Like, you get a thing, and I need the thing, and then,

[00:27:04] Robbie: Well, you can get the thing but but I don't know if it it's helpful You're welcome to buy it. Like I don't I don't

[00:27:10] Chuck: You heard

[00:27:11] Robbie: you all the

[00:27:11] Chuck: I have permission. I am also married to Robby.

[00:27:15] Robbie: Yeah Yes but

[00:27:20] Chuck: I don't know how the algorithm works. I don't think it works very good. And I try to engage with, you know, with things to sort of boost that and whatever else. And I, I don't know, there's weird things that work really well. And there's other things that I think are going to crush it. Nobody even likes it.

I'm like, did they see it? I don't understand.

[00:27:39] Robbie: Well, it tells you if they've seen it

[00:27:41] Chuck: Yeah, 130 views and then, like, nothing,

[00:27:44] Robbie: Yeah, so I don't know how that works. Maybe it's like a, a tiered thing of like if a hundred people see it and no one, none of them like it, then it like starts de ranking it or something. I don't know. Like something is happening because I post stupid [00:28:00] shit that like shouldn't have any likes and it gets tons of likes and then I post stuff that I really like thought out and it's like, no.

[00:28:06] Chuck: Oh, okay. So, monthly, it's 16. I feel like it went down. And then if

[00:28:13] Robbie: might've, the yearly you get like a 20 or 30 percent discount or something.

[00:28:16] Chuck: now. 12%.

[00:28:18] Robbie: I think mine was like 20%. They keep changing it. They also keep saying like, for the podcast, they're like, Give us the thousand dollars a month for the gold. And like, and we'll give you a thousand dollars in ad credit. And I'm like, you guys really need money, huh?


[00:28:37] Chuck: Well, he does, because the valuation went all the way down and everything else. Alright, I'll see. Whoa! Hmm. Oh my gosh, okay, don't do this live or quasi live Okay, I bought it

[00:28:49] Robbie: you done?

[00:28:50] Chuck: Yeah, I did it. I bought it and then like some like Really creepy thing came up

[00:28:56] Robbie: Tell me about how much Linux doesn't work.

[00:28:59] Chuck: Yeah, [00:29:00] it doesn't. I, okay, so I, I, I personally kind of wanted to jump on that because, you know, I have a home lab with like a Linux setup and all of that.

And that's fine. Like Ubuntu server works good. But like, if you want to use it for your like daily deuce do shit, it, it made me feel like I

[00:29:22] Robbie: Your daily do shit.

[00:29:24] Chuck: daily do shit thing, like you log on and like you got certain post some stuff, do some dev stuff, like go over here, do this, you know, all the stuff that you would do normally in a day and it just never works straightforward like, Oh, I don't like this terminal app and I don't have good ones.

I like, okay, I'll try and do terminal through VS code. But now I'm like, overly integrated

[00:29:47] Robbie: can use warp, right? Because it's

No, it's Rust. It's not Electron. So maybe you can't.

[00:29:52] Chuck: Yeah, so I don't think

[00:29:54] Robbie: So you could use Hyper.

[00:29:55] Chuck: yeah, maybe But [00:30:00] anyway end of the day I just felt like I'd regress back into like I have a Windows computer And I'm always trying to fix this fucking thing And it just didn't feel good.

And this comes up as a topic cause we were talking about the framework laptops and like, in like, in theory, I love that I love like this, like modular composable laptop that can like last as long as you do, if you want, like you can. Replace the, you know, the motherboard and memory and inputs. And you can be like, Oh, I don't have this port right now.

And you pull that out and you put it in the port, like the little card that gives you that port. Now you have it. And like, in theory, I love that. But then it's like. Either it's like Linux run and I don't know I met this is maybe a me problem I just feel like in general it just like doesn't work for your normal user.

I'm gonna say I'm just a normal user

[00:30:52] Robbie: Well, so I think it comes down to, do you enjoy a long time of, like, [00:31:00] configuration and whatever? Because there's, the, the hardcore Arch Linux users Want to configure stuff and they tell me it's better now. And I'm not ever going to check to see if it is. Cause why? But like I did it back in like 2008 or so I installed Arch Linux and you have to like download it to a flash drive, take it over to your PC and like you start the installation, whatever.

And it asks you some questions and you like choose some options and it. It installs everything and all it installs is like a terminal. There's like, there's no GUI by default. So you have to then like install gnome or I don't even know all the different options, but like some kind of GUI and it's like this, like what, like just choose this for me, like, I don't want to have to spend all fucking day.

Like, even if I love your distro and it's like lightweight, and [00:32:00] that's the whole point is we're not going to install everything. So it's lightweight. Cool, but I want to be able to use it easily so like strike that balance and give me a GUI Everyone needs a fucking GUI. I'm like, there's no one other than like github CI is using like Headless Linux like who the fuck wants just a terminal like No

[00:32:22] Chuck: yeah, because I mean you can have your terminal and then you vim and change your files and you do everything you never You never see anything because you don't have a browser. You don't have anything. Here it is. So that kind of Linux is the React of computer, like computer OSes. Because if you want to

[00:32:41] Robbie: over engineer

[00:32:42] Chuck: yeah, I have this thing.

And now to have a full OS with GUI, I have to pick all the things. There's no standards. I'm just going to bespoke my thing.

[00:32:53] Robbie: Yeah. And if you have tons of time and you love that kind of shit, then it's fun. But if you [00:33:00] don't, like most people don't now, you just want it to work. And you're just like, like, even if you give me that flexibility, give me a recommendation that's like, Hey, 90 percent of people install this. You should probably install

[00:33:13] Chuck: it or not want it kind

[00:33:14] Robbie: Yeah. Yeah. And then, then cool. Cause you can opt out if you want for those power users. Or for most of us who just want to get shit done, you're like, yeah, give me that.

[00:33:24] Chuck: This episode is brought to you by NullVox. Who thinks

[00:33:28] Robbie: Brought to you by Arch Linux.

[00:33:30] Chuck: Arch Linux and

[00:33:31] Robbie: No, I mean, I agree with the idea of the framework laptop and I think NullVox loves the framework laptop.

And I, I like all of that, like hardware wise, I think they did a great job. I think everything they've done is perfect, but you can't. I assume you can't, it's like not Hackintosh compatible. So if I'm not doing Mac OS, then there are some things that are kind of Mac OS like that you could [00:34:00] install that like maybe solve some of these problems.

But like, I think there's one day we might get there where it's like. You know, we just know what the like Linux distro is like Ubuntu was kind of that for a while But then like now it's gotten so complex I'm like, I want to release swatch as a snap app and it's like well you got to do Like months of work to get that shit to work and I'm like, well, maybe we just don't support Ubuntu, like you can install it and you can probably install it in Arch Linux easier than fucking Ubuntu right now.

Because Ubuntu is like, we got this thing and we're all like sitting at home, like eating Funyuns and drinking Mountain Dew and being like, not on my lawn, motherfucker. Like, and I'm like, how about you just help me release an app so that we can be a nice ecosystem? Like, no, fuck you. You don't, didn't read the entire manual for Linux.

You don't know shit. Like, yes, I don't know shit. I've asked you for your help. Like, please help

[00:34:57] Chuck: I don't know shit. And I just want to include [00:35:00] you in my user base. Yeah. But here's the, I think they buried Snap too, by the way. I think the last time I jumped on Ubuntu, they basically

[00:35:09] Robbie: I have not released Swatch in like, over a year or two in, in Ubuntu land. Because, because, not just that, but we use the the color picker in Chrome.

[00:35:20] Chuck: Yeah.

[00:35:21] Robbie: And it does not work. I think it, it might be specifically Ubuntu. I don't know if it's Linux. As a whole or just Ubuntu. But it's like, it doesn't work because it like, doesn't have the right permissions or something.

So it like, can't grab the rest of the screen. It can do it like just on the browser it's running on. And they did not allow for that. Like go into the permissions and say, allow this. So it just didn't work. And we were like, we don't care that much because

[00:35:49] Chuck: Nobody uses it on, it turns out a lot of designers who are the user base don't use Ubuntu or Linux or anything that doesn't just

[00:35:59] Robbie: [00:36:00] Arch Linux? Yeah.

[00:36:00] Chuck: Yeah,

[00:36:01] Robbie: Yeah, I boot up Arch Linux to load Figma.

[00:36:04] Chuck: Arch Linux are for like you know, what is it like not InfoSec, but you know, like the whole cybersecurity.

Like that, those are

[00:36:13] Robbie: for very technical people.

[00:36:15] Chuck: Yeah, who want to like, get into the back door. They don't want to GUI, because they're just trying to type into the back door. They just want to get access to your servers and shit like that. They don't

[00:36:26] Robbie: I

[00:36:26] Chuck: They don't care about

[00:36:27] Robbie: went, I went home to Roanoke, Virginia. Middle of nowhere. Went to Food Lion. Out in the middle of nowhere. Dude gets out of his car with an Arch Linux shirt on. I was like, Whoa. One, Hilarious. But two, like, You look like the kind of guy that would use Arch Linux.

[00:36:47] Chuck: he's a prepper. He's got, you know what I mean?

[00:36:50] Robbie: Oh yeah. Oh yeah.


[00:36:52] Chuck: like, cyber security, red team, thinks the whole world is going to fall apart. And he's probably [00:37:00] right, turns out, so.

[00:37:01] Robbie: Yeah. I am, I am not prepped. And like, I'm okay with that. Like if, if the internet goes down, Just kill me. Like, I don't need to, like, I don't need any skills, I'm not gonna try to survive that hard, like, Maybe I'll have solar panels to, like, still play some xbox and just chill till someone kills me, but, like, I'm just, I'm not that into, like, life without any of the modern conveniences.

[00:37:28] Chuck: privacy is not a top concern of yours.

[00:37:30] Robbie: No, I don't care at all.

[00:37:32] Chuck: Yeah, yeah, we give it all. Actually just why don't you give your phone number and social security number on this podcast.

[00:37:38] Robbie: Well, I live in Phoenix, Arizona, and

[00:37:41] Chuck: Yeah, exactly. Did we want to talk about Biome? I

[00:37:46] Robbie: yeah, yeah. So I, I saw a video from, is it Ben Holmes? Am I getting his name right? That's the Astro guy.

[00:37:54] Chuck: Yeah, well, he's the whiteboard guy.

[00:37:57] Robbie: Is that his name? Ben Holmes. Okay. [00:38:00] Yeah. So he had a video and it was like, huh.

[00:38:04] Chuck: He's our one listener. You fucked it up.

[00:38:07] Robbie: Oh, now we have no listeners. No. So he was, he was white. He whiteboarded a little, but I think he's leaning less into that.

He's like more showing stuff, but he was showing like the ESLint and prettier config that he had to have before. And then like the biome config after. And it was like, here's all my like five or six plugins for ESLint. Like I want to like. Do all this bespoke stuff for my framework and I want to like do whatever and then and prettier He wants to like import sort with the Trivago prettier import sorter thing and whatever and he's like yeah, we don't have to care about any of that because we just install biome and you can do like it'll both lint and Format and they're two separate commands so you can do either and then you can also do I forget what the other one was you can like do it all, like check and fix it for me.[00:39:00]

And so he was like showing how you can do everything in that. And the problem is it only supports like the React ecosystem and vanilla JavaScript. So if you're using like Svelte or Vue, or he didn't mention Ember, but I care about Ember you can't use it. So I'm like, okay, well, I love this idea. So I'm just waiting for it to exist in other things, but like, yeah, we've gotten down this path of like.

Every project I have has at least like three or four ESLint plugins. You have to have one for TypeScript too. Cause if you're doing TypeScript, it's different. And then you have to have a separate config thing. That's like overrides for TypeScript files and then do these different rules. And yeah, it's just, it's gotten out of hand and I, it's very slow too.

Like ESLint tried to do the whole caching thing where you can like dash dash cache. And it'll be like. Faster because it's only doing it on the things you've changed, but that also breaks, like, I don't know, I don't know under what circumstances it breaks, but sometimes it breaks for me where I'm [00:40:00] like, I changed a thing and it's not linting it and it tells me you passed.

And then I like send it to CI and it's like, you failed and you have to run it without cash and then it'll tell you, Oh yeah, you didn't, you didn't pass. So like something weird is happening there. I'm just ready for a new tool that does it all. And. I think biome can do it. It's just not like fully available for all ecosystems yet.

[00:40:23] Chuck: Well, you'll just switch to React and get it today.

[00:40:26] Robbie: You're right. Right. I'm going to write JSX cause I love it. No, I want to do a comparison. Cause like, like anything that has a, what's it like, has DSL the right word or right acronym of like, you have a templating language of like, where you have a, if else in the template versus having like, Brackets and then just JavaScript, like from JSX, you know what I mean?

So like,

[00:40:54] Chuck: the handlebar syntax versus JSX, right?

[00:40:58] Robbie: yeah. Cause like [00:41:00] I had to, I was making some changes to our next JS based podcast website and I had to do an, if like, if I have this image for the episode, like, like our newest, like 25 episodes have an image and then the rest of them have like the default image. And I want to say, if it has an image, give me these meta tags.

So in JSX, you do brackets, thing dot meta tags or whatever, like ternary operator, the thing I want or null. And I'm like, what, why can't you just say, if do this thing and you can't in JSX, but you can in like every templating language and it just looks so much more readable,

[00:41:51] Chuck: Hmm. Right. Yeah. Versus like a, in JSX, you can do the Les Knowledge coalescent [00:42:00] coalescence thing. So it's like that's sort of a way around it.

[00:42:04] Robbie: Yeah, I didn't have the, the other thing I wanted. So like it was a weird hierarchy of the, the root case was just in like the root, like the root index HTML or whatever it was like, these are your head and this is the, the thing you want to, the image you want to show. And then I wanted to override that for certain episodes.

So the way the head, like, like the next JS head, not like HTML head. Works as you can, like, give it the same thing again and it will override. So like in the more specific cases, you're like, I want to show this thing, but then if you omit the whole block, it'll go back to the root one. So I was trying to do that.

Like, it wasn't like I knew what the root case was and I wanted to say, if it's null. Double question mark and do that. So it was like, it was a, if I had that info, that would have been very easy. And I [00:43:00] think that is much more readable than the ternary operator. I agree with that, but yeah, it was, it's just a weird thing.

Like, it feels like you should be able to just have an if I don't get it.

[00:43:10] Chuck: and that's it. At the end, you just want an if else or

[00:43:13] Robbie: I do. I do like, that's how it is in programming. I don't need to have something else that doesn't work that way or have to like map through something to be able to do an if else inside the map.

[00:43:24] Chuck: right, yeah.

[00:43:26] Robbie: oh, yeah, but everyone knows how I feel about that.

[00:43:31] Chuck: Well, it's funny because going back to your Biome discussion though, which is like, Biome, I believe, came out of the React ecosystem because it was Rome first, and it

[00:43:44] Robbie: I don't know what happened to Rome though.

[00:43:46] Chuck: There

[00:43:46] Robbie: Rome kind of died.

[00:43:47] Chuck: Yeah, no, it just was like, we're building an awesome thing, here's some stuff, and then it kind of stagnated,

[00:43:52] Robbie: Sebastian, whatever guy, you know, I'm

[00:43:54] Chuck: heard there was some, like, shady shit going on with it, and [00:44:00] essentially, people left and, and like, like, basically the project just stagnated, and then people who worked on it just started this new one.

I should probably do more research on that, but

[00:44:13] Robbie: Yeah. Yeah, we we can talk about this in more detail for sure another time because we literally added this to our notes like. 30 minutes before we were talking about it. So we don't know what we're talking about. This is not SyntaxFM where we know what we're talking about. This is WhiskeyWeb and whatnot, where we speculate about whatever we want.

[00:44:34] Chuck: Today's episode is brought to you by Sentry. Sentry. io is

[00:44:39] Robbie: Got some errors?

[00:44:41] Chuck: Yeah, I got some errors. Send them there, and then read them later.

[00:44:45] Robbie: Sentry is great though.

[00:44:46] Chuck: Mm hmm,

[00:44:47] Robbie: Like, I've used a lot of different error reporting things, and it's like the most seamless one. And it's also updated. All the fucking time. Like I can't log into GitHub without a depend about alert. That's [00:45:00] like Ember slash century has been updated from like version seven to version 8 billion.

Like it's like updated every day. And I'm like, what are you guys doing? Like they are clearly shipping all the time.

[00:45:13] Chuck: and if they're updating the Ember version like that, can you imagine

[00:45:17] Robbie: Well, I think it's a mono repo. So it's like every time they ship anything for century, every version gets updated.

[00:45:23] Chuck: Gotcha.

[00:45:24] Robbie: Yeah. Cause it's, yeah, they're, they're not giving that much focus to Ember, like every single day, like,

[00:45:31] Chuck: I was wondering, I was like, geez, well Pete's is a whole like Ember team. Just being like, this is how we get deeper into the internals. We'll give you more information just about it. Ember. No, apparently not.

Right. It was just SQO light, to be fair. But still, it would like set it up, mic do the migrations, do the seeding. Just you know, one record,

[00:45:55] Robbie: So tell me about Alicia, is [00:46:00] it

[00:46:00] Chuck: yeah, I have the same thing I asked and, and she never pronounced it for me, so I don't know, but it is a bun based. Framework for web APIs. It's like the new express, but on bun, bun, bun, bun. So it's super fucking fast so far, but it is also brand new.

[00:46:22] Robbie: milliseconds, it takes 150

[00:46:24] Chuck: Exactly. I don't know. I wrote a test for a a get by ID endpoint and setting up the test.

So basically booting up migrating, like, set up the database, migrate. Seed it. Run the test. Shut down. Tell me information. 69 milliseconds. Whole

[00:46:46] Robbie: Damn.

[00:46:47] Chuck: I was like

[00:46:48] Robbie: Setting up a database?

That's gotta be at least 10x faster than anything else. If not way more.

[00:46:56] Chuck: I think so. It is like so fast, very [00:47:00] instantaneous. Like start the server, boom. It's immediate. It's like, it's really nice. In that sense. I don't know

[00:47:06] Robbie: I guess, why they care that it takes 20 milliseconds to run Node version.

[00:47:10] Chuck: exactly, why do they want to know what node version? You know, that's what makes me wonder. It's like, why do you need that?

[00:47:15] Robbie: Probably for compatibility with other things where like you're running a library and it cares what the node version is to do like different branches or something like, so the fact that it runs node version, they're upset that it takes 20 milliseconds. Yeah.

[00:47:31] Chuck: Sounds like they're contributing to node. Maybe.

[00:47:34] Robbie: Which maybe, I mean, I think if nothing else, it's going to move everyone forward. Cause they're like. You know, we've been not caring a ton about performance. We're just caring about adding features and like, there's some performance gains, but they're like, wait, this could be like, in some cases, probably a hundred X, a thousand X faster.

Like we, we need to care now.

[00:47:56] Chuck: It's true because when you have a player come in and say I care the [00:48:00] most about performance That's gonna push everybody forward because even like Denno, I think Didn't care as much about performance as I did about like developer ergonomics, you know,

[00:48:10] Robbie: Yeah. They were very security based too.

[00:48:13] Chuck: Yeah Yeah, so which is fine.

It's a good thing But then take that foundation and now move it into also Blazing Fast. Holy

[00:48:23] Robbie: Yeah. Yeah. I think Dino is doing it right. Yeah. They basically give you no permissions and they're like, if you want to do anything, you must request and give like explicit access of like, I want you to be able to read files or whatever. It's not just like, do whatever you can with these node APIs. It's like, no, no, you don't have any access until we give it to you for every little thing, because then you can say, all right, I'm going to implement this thing.

And you give it access to that and you don't have to worry about the rest. Cause you're like, I know it's locked down and it's not going to do other shit. So like, I [00:49:00] think that is, that is really powerful. If they can meet in the middle, like if bun can do the same thing, but also be fast, I think that's the perfect thing.

[00:49:09] Chuck: Yeah, you know, we shall see the runtime wars have begun which I mean who would have thought five ten years ago runtime wars Part two.

[00:49:23] Robbie: Yeah. I mean, JavaScript, I thought was just like. A thing like we don't need all these runtimes like node happened to be the same thing we were running in Chrome, just repurposed, but like the fact that we would have several more.

[00:49:37] Chuck: Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah, I didn't see this coming wasn't on your bingo card apparently.

[00:49:42] Robbie: Something else we didn't see coming was selling shepherd to the company you work for now.

[00:49:48] Chuck: Oh My gosh,

[00:49:49] Robbie: won't air for a while, so it's fine.

[00:49:52] Chuck: Yeah, yeah, so I mean we should be clear about that distinction of Spinning up a company around Shepard [00:50:00] JS, which now becomes Shepard the Thing and Shepard Pro in the future. And yeah, trying to build more to do more with Shepard. Shepard the very dumb library for tours, but actually can do a whole lot more than tours.

Because it's just all about context, right? It's sort of like It goes through steps and points out elements, and you can use it in all kinds of ways. Are you guiding someone towards onboarding? Are you showing new features? Are you, you know, just trying to engage interaction in some ways, and you want context to that?

Like, you can definitely do a lot with that information. If you decide to capture it and sort of like do something with that. So, yeah that's definitely a thing. I think so shepherd JS will is MIT open source library will continue to be so in perpetuity, as far as I know. And we just like to offer something that is a better developer experience and offers insights from what your [00:51:00] users are doing.

So that's a very serious topic for, for a few whiskeys in but it's worth talking about it's worth saying that like yeah, because ship shape has Been the steward of Shepherd for quite some time and doing something with Shepherd and hopefully offering something of value To people is is cool. So Fucking a stay tuned.

[00:51:23] Robbie: Yeah. There's also like a lot of, like there's a, Shepard is big enough that users try to do weird stuff. And like. that informs some of like what the direction should be, I think. But like people forever have wanted to highlight two things, like two cutouts, but one pop up

[00:51:47] Chuck: hmm

[00:51:48] Robbie: or pop over whatever terminology is weird.

And then recently, like within the last week, someone wanted to have one cutout, like highlight one element, but have two [00:52:00] pop overs. Attached to the same thing. And I was like, what, why? But like just making it flexible enough that people could do that on like all the different, like, I think making that distinction will differentiate it from like intro JS or something else that's similar.

And then adding on pro features that like make it super easy to do this as a developer or like down the road as a just marketing team or whatever, like.

[00:52:27] Chuck: Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of players

[00:52:29] Robbie: not a ton. Yeah.

[00:52:30] Chuck: This is like Pando I think is one that has like a big thing. There's app queues has the very marketer side of things there's Chameleon is a newer one that has like Frigate is one that has like a full onboarding experience and has a clerk of kind of like drop in our react components and get your thing because it's gonna call home and Get a bunch of info there and sort of simplify integration.

But, you know, is that the best thing? I don't know. I think a lot [00:53:00] of people want contextual information and analytics. Maybe that's a thing, you know, so integrations with like post hog and amplitude and shit like that too. That's cool.

[00:53:13] Robbie: I don't think anyone has really nailed it yet. So I think it's going to be a lot of like trial and error and figuring out what works. But I think Shepard as a library has always been like the user or like the developers. Tor library because like intro JS was like, they had the weird licensing of like, if you made more than a certain amount of money or whatever, you had to pay them and then like different stuff.

So like, I think being able to use shepherd fully, it's like, kind of dumb. You can customize all of it. And then we layer on like the value add after is different than the rest of them. So,

[00:53:52] Chuck: Yeah, I'm not trying to capitalize on the existing market. Like, cool, you're using it? Great, keep using it. No worries there. [00:54:00] Drupal. Drupal uses it for their, their tour component

[00:54:03] Robbie: yeah, and they haven't been like, they're, they haven't had a lot of problems, I guess, because they were like, you know, we want to add this. If we have problems, like we will come at you and like, are you cool with that? And I was like, yeah. And they like, they had a couple of issues and like, they were fine.

We resolved them. But like, you would think that sort of mass usage would unveil a lot of things and it really didn't. And we've had like a stable. Test like system for many years, which took us through, like, I first converted it to Preact now to Svelte and like all the tests still pass in the same test suite.

So it's like, that's the power of test driven development. You can swap out your entire framework and it just works.

[00:54:49] Chuck: It's gonna be a web component next or something like that. Yeah.

[00:54:54] Robbie: the tests pass, you can make it whatever.

[00:54:56] Chuck: Faux rizzle.

[00:54:58] Robbie: Yeah.

[00:54:59] Chuck: It feels [00:55:00] like a good outro, yeah. We'll talk about tree trimming and landscaping. I think you meant manscaping here, but it says landscaping, so I

[00:55:07] Robbie: Yeah. We got, we got five minutes left. We can, we can whatnot for a couple minutes. It's a lot of tech. Yeah, we

[00:55:13] Chuck: do kid, kid things, so.

[00:55:15] Robbie: yeah. Yeah, we we're almost done. Let's just talk Christmas shopping. You Christmas shop early or wait till the last minute.

[00:55:23] Chuck: me personally or my family? Cause there's a difference.

[00:55:26] Robbie: Both.

[00:55:28] Chuck: My family as a whole is a collective and I can piggyback onto that. Christmas shops early for the most part. Me, I, I get to a couple of key items that I know early on just cause like, I like to be a thoughtful gift giver and not just like, Oh, it's the thing I have to do it. So like when it comes for me, like I know what I want to buy, I get it.

And just get it over with. And then there's like, Oh, we have stockings to fill and blah, blah, blah, blah, that I do all last minute and all online.

[00:55:59] Robbie: [00:56:00] Yeah. That's fair. Yeah, I think I do like similar. I have a few that I like really nail. And like put thought into and then I'm just kind of spent I'm like, how can I get gifts for everyone else without like putting a lot of effort into it? So it's like yeah, you have those few like yeah I'm gonna win this one and then the rest are just kind of like I got to get gifts.


[00:56:22] Chuck: I know. I find myself like going through prime day or whatever. And like, is there anything great here? There's not really, but is there anything that's good enough?

[00:56:30] Robbie: Yeah

[00:56:32] Chuck: that happens. So, Oh,

[00:56:35] Robbie: because like sometimes I'll do it based on what I want to so like I sent my mom this year like what's it called? The Wintersmith's, like, ice set thing? Where you can make the clear ice? And they, like, the Wintersmith one is special because you can make, like, ten different shapes.

Now, they don't give you all the shapes. You gotta buy each thing separately. And [00:57:00] it's very expensive. And she was like, This is an ice tray. Like, what are you talking about? Why is it this expensive? And I was like, Because it's clear ice and it's different shapes.

[00:57:10] Chuck: She didn't quite know that nuance. Yeah. She was like, oh, great son.

[00:57:15] Robbie: Yeah, she wasn't thrilled with that, but I, in turn, got, like, some other people, some of the, like, less expensive clear ice things.

So, like, I think it's a good thing to have. You might not be able to support all the shapes and the whatever, like, not get the fancy one. But there's, like, an Amazon one that's, like, 40, and it, like, does really clear ice, so works fine.

[00:57:38] Chuck: Links in Robbie's bio. They're affiliate.

[00:57:40] Robbie: Well, they've, they've canceled my affiliate program, so fuck them. I didn't, didn't get enough traffic on my Amazon affiliate links because no one goes to RobbieTheWagner. dev apparently.

[00:57:52] Chuck: Oh, okay. Can you can you call up Jeff and be like, I

[00:57:56] Robbie: I can Slack Jeff.

[00:57:58] Chuck: Oh, I would love [00:58:00] that. When you're ready to like, quit, you should slack Jeff about it. Like

[00:58:06] Robbie: I don't,

[00:58:07] Chuck: affiliate program.

[00:58:08] Robbie: don't think he responds. I don't think he or Andy Jassy, the new CEO, ever respond. Like, I think they just happen to have accounts. But then,

[00:58:15] Chuck: just like never there. They never

[00:58:17] Robbie: Yeah, like they probably never respond to email either. It's like, maybe goes to their secretary or their secretary's secretary. Or like, yeah, but, yeah, it's a weird thing with the affiliate thing. It's like, I think they give you like three months and if you don't have a certain number of buys, like not even just clicks, it's like, if you haven't generated enough revenue, they just cancel it. And it's like, how is that even worthwhile? Because you might as well leave it open.

What if like I accidentally went viral and. A thousand people want to buy it, right?

[00:58:52] Chuck: yeah, yeah. You got to do that X number of times to keep

[00:58:56] Robbie: yeah, like you get to appeal it like you have to wait a month or two and then [00:59:00] be like, no, I have traffic now. And then they give you like another chance to get it and whatever. And it's just a lot of red tape. It should just be like, then someone has, well, I guess no one's managing it. It's automated, but. I don't know.

This is a weird rant to go on.

[00:59:17] Chuck: find a different affiliate program. That's what you're

[00:59:21] Robbie: Well, yeah. Like bflow desks.

[00:59:25] Chuck: There you go. That's true. Nice desk. We'll talk more about it another time, I guess. This episode is brought to you by, oh, we should share that. This episode

[00:59:34] Robbie: know what it

[00:59:35] Chuck: is it Go

[00:59:36] Robbie: it up while you're talking.

[00:59:37] Chuck: All right, go B flow, which is a standing desk that is all about a, I love that the raise and lower is each individual leg. It's like extremely stable with that.

It has an entire like system for organizing all your wires that wouldn't be apparent for my current setup, but when I moved to my. Children's Playhouse as my [01:00:00] primary office. I'll show a more advanced configuration.

[01:00:04] Robbie: Nice.

[01:00:06] Chuck: com.

[01:00:08] Robbie: Oh, I still cannot find Let's see. I don't know. We'll share the code next time. Because I can't find it right now.

[01:00:23] Chuck: Okay.

[01:00:24] Robbie: I think they gave us like 20 or 30 percent off on the code though. So

[01:00:27] Chuck: Oh, that's solid. We should definitely, yeah. Cause it's like

[01:00:30] Robbie: Worthwhile to

[01:00:31] Chuck: 000 desk. You should do it.

[01:00:32] Robbie: Yeah. The best desk I've had for sure. And like, I never had organized cords until this desk. Because usually I would just let them all hang.

And then Katelynn would come in eventually and be like, I got these clips, I'm going to like clip them up for you.

[01:00:48] Chuck: Nice. And now it won't be so embarrassing. As you get older, she does that with your balls too.

[01:00:56] Robbie: that sounds painful.

[01:00:59] Chuck: [01:01:00] Yeah, it's not, it's not very functional, but effective. Anyway,

[01:01:04] Robbie: Okay. Well, yeah, this one took a lot of weird turns, but we are over time. So hopefully you enjoyed at least part of it. If you liked it, please subscribe, leave us some ratings and reviews and we will catch you next time.

[01:01:17] Chuck: also check out shepherdjs. dev boom, boom, boom, boom.

[01:01:22] Robbie: pro dot

[01:01:24] Chuck: com. But it doesn't go anywhere

[01:01:25] Robbie: Yeah. Okay.