RobbieTheWagner 
Charles William Carpenter III [00:00:00] Intro: Welcome to Syntax. Welcome to a brand new episode of the Front End Happy Hour podcast. Welcome to this week’s JS Party. Live from Ship Shape Studios, this is Whiskey Web and Whatnot. With your hosts, Robbie the Wagner, and me, Charles William Carpenter III. That’s right Charles. We drink whiskey and talk about web development.
[00:00:27] Intro: I mean, it’s all in the name. It’s not that deep. This is Whiskey Web and Whatnot. Do not adjust your set.
[00:00:36] Robbie Wagner: What’s up everybody. Welcome to another edition of where in the world is Charles William Carpenter the third, because I don’t recognize where he’s at right now.
[00:00:44] Chuck Carpenter: I’m not in my own home. I’m in another home. And I was trying to be efficient with our recording time. And in doing so, I rushed packing up my stuff and forgot a cord. So enjoy mediocre video, everyone.
[00:00:58] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. Is what it is. [00:01:00] Audio is still pretty good. You might want to move your mic up a little bit. It looks like it’s pretty far from
[00:01:06] Chuck Carpenter: yeah, well there’s part of that that it starts like swinging around to where I’m at. But hey, you know, can’t win them all.
[00:01:13] Chuck Carpenter: I think
[00:01:13] Robbie Wagner: All right. Yeah. This is a podcast. We drink whiskey on this show.
[00:01:16] Robbie Wagner: , I don’t know what we usually do before that, if anything, but let’s just jump right into that. Yes,,
[00:01:19] Robbie Wagner: this is the Hatozaki, something. I don’t, I don’t have my notes up.
[00:01:25] Chuck Carpenter: It is the Hatozaki finest Japanese whiskey. It is 80 proof from the Akashi Sake Brewery. So I guess a very, , long established sake brewery doing, , whiskeys now. Uh, this is a blend of whiskeys, , with some of them aged up to 12 years in barrel with a minimum malt whiskey content of 40%. So that’s about all I can find out about it.
[00:01:49] Chuck Carpenter: But, uh. Yeah, I don’t know. It looks cool. And, and being able to say Hatozaki.
[00:01:54] Robbie Wagner: So it’s not 100 percent malted barley?
[00:01:58] Chuck Carpenter: So,
[00:01:59] Robbie Wagner: Interesting.
[00:01:59] Chuck Carpenter: [00:02:00] is Japanese whiskey in that it’s produced by a Japanese company, but I wouldn’t call it a traditional Japanese whiskey in the, like, more Scotch style of things.
[00:02:10] Chuck Carpenter: But it is malted, part of it. It is very light, very pale, very Jim Gaffigan in this particular bottle.
[00:02:18] Chuck Carpenter: , so that’s different. But 12 years for a, like, non bourbon whiskey, 12 years in a barrel is not actually that long, because typically they use used barrels, so it takes a little more time to
[00:02:30] Robbie Wagner: It smells a lot like apple cider vinegar.
[00:02:33] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, you’re not wrong. , vinegary? I don’t know, but like, definitely smells like apple cider y. Like,
[00:02:40] Robbie Wagner: it makes me not excited to try it, but I’m going to try
[00:02:43] Chuck Carpenter: this is the best the Hatsuzaki family has to offer you.
[00:02:48] Robbie Wagner: Taste is much better than the smell.
[00:02:50] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, yeah, it is a little tart in the beginning and a little kind of like gummy, like light chewing gum flavor a [00:03:00] little bit in mine. Um, yeah.
[00:03:06] Robbie Wagner: get a little finish of smokiness and scotchy flavors, but yeah, initially it’s kind of just watery. And like, it’s like if you put a bunch of water in a whiskey,
[00:03:17] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, it’s a low proof and one of the ways they suggest having it either neat or as a high ball, which is just like a splash of soda kind of style. Some ice and a splash of soda seems like right up your alley in that sense.
[00:03:30] Robbie Wagner: I thought a high ball was like. When you’re shooting a basket, and the ball
[00:03:35] Chuck Carpenter: No. No. You don’t know. It’s at the top of the arc of a basketball shot, also. But in the drinking world, a highball is not only a style of glass, but it is also a way of having your I guess a way of having your spirit or something like that. I’ll have a high ball usually to me. , from what I recall, the many, many moons ago that I was a bartender, that was [00:04:00] like, I want it on some ice and I want like a splash of soda.
[00:04:03] Robbie Wagner: Makes sense.
[00:04:04] Chuck Carpenter: Mm hmm. It doesn’t have a ton of smell to it. Yeah. Like that. kind of like tarty sort of smell. it’s very easy drinking, but it does almost seem like, you know, those like natural sodas. I can’t remember any of the names of them at this point, but you have like a natural fizzy thingy, , that’s expensive at Whole Foods.
[00:04:23] Chuck Carpenter: It’s kind of like a light watered down version of one of those that is also flat.
[00:04:28] Robbie Wagner: Yeah.
[00:04:29] Chuck Carpenter: That’s just the best way to describe it. I don’t mean it unflattering in that way, just kind of, it’s
[00:04:33] Chuck Carpenter: realistic. Heh
[00:04:35] Robbie Wagner: it. I think it’s like, sometimes they straddle that line. Well, of it being watery and like not flavorful. And it’s kind of impressive. Like this has this much alcohol in it and I don’t feel any of it. This one, I do kind of feel the alcohol. It has a lot of weird flavors going on.
[00:04:51] Robbie Wagner: I can’t really describe it. I’m not a big fan.
[00:04:53] Chuck Carpenter: Hmm. So you mentioned like a smokiness there that is like very light in and again, the only way I can [00:05:00] describe it or what it makes me think of is you think about like You go camping and you’re around the campfire and you kind of get that permeated into your clothes and then you go to sleep and like the next day you go and have breakfast and you can still kind of smell that campfire almost in a way where you can taste it.
[00:05:18] Chuck Carpenter: That’s how subtle. It is for me. I don’t know. Yeah. It’s interesting. It’s to me though. The thing about this is I don’t think I’d really want to compare it to other Japanese whiskeys or a Scotch style whiskey or like any malted, like highly malted whiskey. It’s almost just like when you try like some weird liqueur or something else and you’re like, I don’t know what this is, like St Germain elder flower like stuff.
[00:05:41] Chuck Carpenter: And then you’re like, that’s kind of weird. I can see where that only applies to cocktails for the most part, right? No one I’ve ever met, but maybe someone does. And that’s what this kind of feels like to me. But, I don’t know.
[00:05:53] Robbie Wagner: I think it could be good in some sort of application. from my opinion, it is not good neat.
[00:05:59] Robbie Wagner: so [00:06:00] yeah, I’m gonna go ahead and rate it. We have a highly specific rating system, 0 to 8 tentacles. And 0 is the worst, 8 is the best. On that scale, I’m gonna give it a 3, cause I am not very pleased with the flavors.
[00:06:14] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, yeah. I can’t even really say how I would categorize it. Like, in general, it is a whiskey. It is made in a whiskey style. Not any one particular whiskey style. It is blended. It is like, it’s also at lower price point. I think it was around 40. And I gotta say, 40 if I was seeking out a whiskey.
[00:06:35] Chuck Carpenter: I mean, there’s really not much in Japanese whiskeys in that price point. There’s really not much you can do there.
[00:06:41] Robbie Wagner: It’s kind of a red flag.
[00:06:43] Chuck Carpenter: if you want a Japanese whiskey, do not buy this one.
[00:06:46] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. I think the shipping for this bottle should have been like 38 from Japan to here. So.
[00:06:53] Chuck Carpenter: Right, exactly. And we didn’t order it direct from Japan by any means, but still. Yeah, like the cost of [00:07:00] import, or whatever that may have been. yeah, I’m kind of struggling as well. It’s a lower price point, doesn’t really hit if you’re looking for Japanese whiskey. It’s weird for a whiskey in general.
[00:07:10] Chuck Carpenter: I wouldn’t like turn it down if you were at a friend’s place and they were like, yeah, try this. Isn’t this weird? Yeah, I guess try it. It won’t make you sick It’s not fireball or something disgusting, but i’m kind of like two, two and a half. I don’t know. It’s not great.
[00:07:24] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. I think their hashtag is better than Malort.
[00:07:27] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, there you go There you go. If I was comparing it to malort it would be an eight but since i’m not since this is a whiskey show at least this particular episode You
[00:07:39] Robbie Wagner: All right.
[00:07:40] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, well, take that to the bank.
[00:07:42] Robbie Wagner: So, you had a few things on here which I have skimmed very, like, slightly. tell me about ORMs. What do you, what do you want to talk about with
[00:07:51] Chuck Carpenter: I’ve just been thinking about ORMs based on like recent work and project stuff and whatever else like I have done a lot with [00:08:00] Prisma. I have experienced ORMs all the way back to like Django days I really very much kind of place, to a degree at least like Ember Data that’s an ORM, right?
[00:08:12] Chuck Carpenter: It’s like your
[00:08:13] Robbie Wagner: Can you define ORM for
[00:08:15] Chuck Carpenter: Object relational map
[00:08:17] Robbie Wagner: Okay. Just wanted to test
[00:08:18] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, no, that’s, that’s fair, because, , you caught me on a good day, and I’m sure it will fail many other ones, but, uh, happened to know that, but, yeah, it, it’s strange, and so, like, you know, your front end interpretations of that, I, I really enjoyed Ember Data, so that was a time where, like, in a JavaScript framework, where, like, the sugar was great, and you weren’t, like, creating complex, like, fetch operations and all of this stuff, because you were just, like, Mapping out your schema.
[00:08:45] Chuck Carpenter: And so RM, and then it kind of did all the sugar for you. And you’re like, yeah, get me this thing. And it’s serialized or, Oh, in this case, I need it a little different. So I’ll like write a little adapter in between there and then get my thing. And it’s really nice for all of those [00:09:00] things. But I do think they get more complex and we start getting closer and closer and closer to the database.
[00:09:05] Chuck Carpenter: And in some instances, we’re just straight up, passing queries in which I’d
[00:09:11] Chuck Carpenter: I don’t think it’s a great idea.
[00:09:12] Robbie Wagner: And you’re kind of limited I don’t have a lot of experience with a lot of the different ones There’s a million of them out there now, but like astro db i’ve used some recently it’s like You know, you can insert these like five types or whatever It’s like limited in what you can put in your database, which the database itself may not actually be limited by It’s just like the types it understands and what it wants you to do And so it’s like well If i’m connecting this to a full on like You know, SQL database or whatever that supports everything.
[00:09:43] Robbie Wagner: I might want more flexibility and this is limiting me, but it does give you some guardrails and like the nicety of everything is kind of JavaScript. Like you’re used to the syntax more than it being SQL or whatever. so there’s, there’s nice things. I like AstroDB and I haven’t hit a case [00:10:00] where it isn’t good enough.
[00:10:02] Chuck Carpenter: It’s SQL light though. Isn’t.
[00:10:07] Robbie Wagner: but that’s like what they, their, um, few things they like say to connect to like torso and a couple others. , but I want to say it maybe works with other stuff too. Maybe not. Maybe I’m crazy.
[00:10:20] Robbie Wagner: Um, didn’t worry about that. Cause you need a very simple database and SQL light. It’s a good use case for that. So
[00:10:26] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, but what I was getting at is like Astro is pretty simple too. Like you’re, you’re doing content. Driven static sites most of the time. Like that’s probably on purpose that it doesn’t support something like super crazy, but you can do like, just having a way to set up relationships and stuff is great.
[00:10:43] Robbie Wagner: So you can have, like, we have an episode for our podcast and it has guests on it and like, we need to add whiskeys and do some more stuff and those can all be related together to the episode. So you get some of the niceness of like having a real database, but you’d never really had to touch the database itself.
[00:10:57] Robbie Wagner: You’re just doing it in JavaScript.
[00:10:59] Chuck Carpenter: Right. [00:11:00] Yeah. And so simple use cases like why have a full fledged API, right? Like, that kind of makes a lot of sense to me. I do think it starts to, the lines start to blur.
[00:11:09] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, Drizzle is the other one that is, hot in a lot of stacks. And they’re just funny on Twitter, so I guess there’s that. And it is, it’s nice so far. There’s, it’s still very early days though, right? So there’s some great maturity in some other ones. And I’m finding, like, something I would be, like, just seeding. And Drizzle released a seed package. But it is, again, kind of very limited. What I didn’t understand about it is they’re like defining the values that can be generated from in the sense of like, rather than using something like Faker.
[00:11:43] Chuck Carpenter: js, they’ll have, well, we have, we’re listing all the countries or something like that. All the, yeah, all the, let’s say all the countries right there, even though you could like pull all of that from something well established like Faker. js, you, Can extend their stuff if you [00:12:00] want, but again, it would be nicer for them to just enable the functionality and not necessarily like drive the content of what comes out of a seed file there.
[00:12:10] Robbie Wagner: So they’re trying to give you a bunch of like canned types,
[00:12:14] Chuck Carpenter: Right. And they, yeah, they’re trying to give you a bunch of canned possibilities of a company name or something like that. And, , so the randomness is like very limited about that. But that, and that just kind of speaks to what a bunch of their, , extra packages are. Is like, yeah, they do a lot, but they are kind of limiting.
[00:12:33] Robbie Wagner: Well, they probably, you know, remembered what happened with FakerJS. And we’re like, let’s just write our own.
[00:12:40] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, but, but it got taken over by the community and is on the happy path now and it got a new release
[00:12:46] Chuck Carpenter: and
[00:12:46] Chuck Carpenter: the docs
[00:12:47] Robbie Wagner: out to Microsoft for being great stewards of everything we use every
[00:12:50] Chuck Carpenter: Right, exactly. Is that where it landed? Was Microsoft? Yeah.
[00:12:56] Robbie Wagner: you know, close, loop, control, all of that. Where he’s like, [00:13:00] here’s this malicious stuff I want to publish, and they’re like, nope.
[00:13:03] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, nope. Not to our developers. We will save you. yeah, so I just, it’s kind of like top of mind and having worked through some of that It’s interesting because it also offers some form validation in on the quote unquote server side and server side and then that new Next.
[00:13:22] Chuck Carpenter: js context is server actions, which, You know, your forms have this server action. They’re very tightly coupled to forms, but they don’t have to be per se. and so you have, like, this expected object of form data, and it can have a schema for the form and a schema for your database. And then you can start to, like, validate those comparisons.
[00:13:47] Chuck Carpenter: I don’t know.
[00:13:47] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, I think it’s useful. I like having all the types match up. Have as much typescript as you can everywhere. Enforce everything. But it also like, it depends, everything depends. It’s just [00:14:00] like, that might be heavy handed for certain things that are like slightly different. And then you’re having to cast it all the time just cause it’s a little bit different or whatever.
[00:14:07] Robbie Wagner: But, I see the appeal for sure.
[00:14:09] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, depends, as we always say, and then the other side of it is just like, there’s a lot of ways to skin cats, and you should skin cats, because there’s a lot of them, and
[00:14:20] Chuck Carpenter: some of them, yeah, we need less cats, less asshole animals, , judging us, and uh, so skin them up, Just because you can, doesn’t mean you should.
[00:14:29] Chuck Carpenter: I don’t know. That’s, that’s kind of what a lot of my thinking has been lately. But, not that I’m stopping that train, you know. React is plowing along, Vercel is plowing along, many other companies plowing
[00:14:41] Robbie Wagner: Wait, we have the power to stop react, right?
[00:14:44] Chuck Carpenter: I made them an offer to buy it and, uh, pull it closed source and, uh, I’ve yet to hear back. So, you know, I don’t know. I, I can’t say I don’t think it’s going to happen, but it feels unlikely at this
[00:14:56] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, I am intrigued that they’re [00:15:00] finally doing what I feel like everyone should always do, which is, try to have some sanity in your syntax and keep it a certain way and just build a compiler layer that changes it to whatever you need it to be. So, like, building the React compiler is kind of admitting, hey, everything we have now sucks, we want to get rid of some of the complexities and, like, This will let you write a few less hooks and, you know, have a nicer, cleaner thing.
[00:15:30] Robbie Wagner: And we’ll just compile it away and do what you meant to do. And I think like everyone using react, like probably 80 percent of people using react are doing it wrong. And like, you’ve probably seen the, I think, is it the, uh,
[00:15:42] Robbie Wagner: who is it? I’m going to get this wrong. I want to say it was like the million JS guy.
[00:15:47] Robbie Wagner: That’s been like telling everybody, everything is re rendering too
[00:15:49] Chuck Carpenter: Yes, Aiden
[00:15:50] Chuck Carpenter: Bai. Yes.
[00:15:52] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, okay. So be like, hey, this re renders like 300, 000 times. Can you not? and I think you know, [00:16:00] that’s Pretty much every website, especially if you’re rewriting you’re like, oh, okay. We’ve been in rails for a decade let’s put it all in react now and then like It just goes poorly because you’ve got A huge team of people who have no idea how the hooks work because who really does know how the hooks work except for Kent C.
[00:16:16] Robbie Wagner: Dodds
[00:16:17] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, so you should take epic, his epic web course, perhaps if you want to become an expert, but, there’s also the side of it that re renders used to be. The big performance, rabbit hole. And then as things moved away from class components, all of a sudden, well, not all of a sudden, but over time, it just became part of like the culture, at least from what I had understood and projects I worked on is like, it’s actually not that big of a deal.
[00:16:43] Chuck Carpenter: Re renders aren’t a
[00:16:44] Chuck Carpenter: big deal.
[00:16:45] Chuck Carpenter: They’re better, they’re more compartmentalized and they, well, because they weren’t like, you know, You know, re rendering half the tree and crazy repaints and all that kind of stuff is that they’ve been more compartmentalized in
[00:16:56] Chuck Carpenter: that.
[00:16:57] Robbie Wagner: But if everything you write and you’ve got a hundred [00:17:00] components on your page is all re rendering like every couple milliseconds.
[00:17:04] Chuck Carpenter: Well, that’s why you have server components now, right? So
[00:17:08] Chuck Carpenter: now is that you can, you know, yeah, exactly. Like your top level data and some of that stuff is server rendered and then doesn’t have the crazy re Yeah. Let me tell you a
[00:17:19] Robbie Wagner: secret everyone listening the way you can build a website. It’s crazy I’m, the only one that knows it. Okay, you write an html file you put html in it You write a css file you put css in it You ship it And then then if you want something to change like you have a thing that needs to update you put one react component there you don’t make everything React
[00:17:43] Chuck Carpenter: Well, that’s how it started. And that’s like the
[00:17:46] Chuck Carpenter: astro ideology of islands architecture, right? Like compartmentalize that that’s also HTMX, right? It’s, I only want this to change. And, you know, there is some, activity there that goes
[00:17:59] Robbie Wagner: [00:18:00] And gets the change depending on who you are and how you grok it. I don’t know a ton about it, but like my thought process is it’s easier because you’re just going to get the full HTML you need to swap back. So you just swap those elements instead of like needing to do any diffing or like whatever on the front
[00:18:16] Robbie Wagner: end.
[00:18:16] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, there is no diffing. Yeah, there’s definitely like, here’s a change. Here is the Islamic You know input for that change or whatever now This you know the server decides all of that stuff and just give me the new thing That I need to put there and that’s the logic. It is interesting I would love to have like something that’s not a fucking like to do app or something as a good like reference Application that is like moderately complex and then try to write it in In that way, change the architecture completely because the argument now always falls into the bucket of, Oh, what you’re describing Robbie is a web site full of documents and no real user feedback outside of [00:19:00] like, let’s say a form or something of that nature.
[00:19:02] Chuck Carpenter: , change your page. send a form to the server. That’s kind of the gist of it. There’s not state. There’s not, you know, all these kinds of things, but there could be. and then once you start to have those needs, now you’ve crossed over and now you need a whole lot more because you have a web application that has all of this like considered necessary nuance to it.
[00:19:24] Chuck Carpenter: But I mean, I think it’s a good question. I think there is gray area and like, What is a good reference application for testing that and making it as dumb, simple as possible? I would think that if I dug into things that DHH has spoken about more, I think it probably still will be JavaScript heavy, but there is no transpiler.
[00:19:45] Chuck Carpenter: There’s no compiler. There’s no whatever. Just write JavaScript. It’s what works in the browser. And we can send 40 of these because now we have like multi channel, you know, I forget the HT. Http3 stuff, , whatever it’s called, but [00:20:00] you can like, you know, the, all
[00:20:01] Robbie Wagner: It’s just two, right? One was the one that wouldn’t
[00:20:03] Robbie Wagner: do it. Maybe we’re on three now. I don’t know. I just know one wouldn’t do it and two and up will I don’t
[00:20:09] Chuck Carpenter: And so it’s, I think it’s just too, no, I think you’re right, but I’m just trying to, and I can’t even remember what it’s called. So it’s poor of me to reference to begin with, but you know what I’m saying is like, there’s none of this compiling. It’s, , use the tools and it does you know, reinforce some of the ideology that you’ve really been behind, which is like, use the web tools, use the browser tools, like.
[00:20:30] Chuck Carpenter: we’re creating things for the web, so like, take a look at these again and see, maybe that makes sense, I don’t know, you know? I mean, it’s not like a fintech application that needs like millisecond response time, right? Like, let’s be honest, most of us are doing.
[00:20:44] Robbie Wagner: yeah, I think a lot of what we’re doing these days is just in the name of developer experience because like I think that’s the the gap that astro has bridged that like I can build things in a way that uh, You know heavy spa would be written in [00:21:00] But it’s just going to give me static stuff at the end
[00:21:02] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, it’s gonna deliver the most basic output for
[00:21:06] Chuck Carpenter: browser. a lot of things if you were writing just normal script tags that you like probably don’t use often.
[00:21:14] Robbie Wagner: Like if you want to update a value, there’s no like JSX where the value changes. Right. You’re just having to find the element and swap the inner HTML. Like it’s a lot more manual than something like react or whatever. so I think that’s why people don’t do it. But I think it is a nice exercise to do just to like, you know, beef up your skills and understand what’s actually happening.
[00:21:37] Robbie Wagner: Yep.
[00:21:41] Chuck Carpenter: over the last few years a lot of our industry has been concerned a lot about developer experience and like nice sugar and ease and all these things and I think we are potentially in another state of disruption some of it being AI and it’s [00:22:00] help or hinder however you feel about that.
[00:22:02] Chuck Carpenter: I do feel like it speeds up certain tasks if that’s writing code or if that’s just using it as like a clearer search engine for something, or a getting started template of things. Like I’ve definitely in general found it. Faster for like discovering answers and getting started. Like, I’m going to have to read all this code anyway.
[00:22:21] Chuck Carpenter: like let’s have it get started. It understands the parameters of my project and its dependencies. And I’m just like, I want to form and it has these six fields and da da da. And like, that is going to be faster than I can type it out. I found that to be true, at least personally. So less sugar necessary there, less DX in my tools, because I have a different tool now that kind of knows a bunch of these things.
[00:22:43] Chuck Carpenter: , also, you know, half of us are unemployed. , all of the general salaries seem to be coming down, except for Menomina companies. but, super hard to
[00:22:52] Robbie Wagner: Well, the amount
[00:22:53] Robbie Wagner: of people employed there is going
[00:22:55] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, the amount of people employed there is going down. And so, it’s really hard to get one of those slots. It [00:23:00] was hard before, now it’s super hard.
[00:23:01] Chuck Carpenter: So all of those things aside, it makes me wonder about like, companies like Astro, and, Astro is at least providing us some sort of output and product, but I’m trying to think like in general, like, I mean, there’s a billion different like, , developer services and SAS things and whatever else. maybe those aren’t the next thing.
[00:23:21] Chuck Carpenter: Maybe we don’t care about those things. We’re like, do your fucking job. You have a few other tools that make it easier and you don’t need, whatever, whatever, as a business, open source becoming business, I think might be. Be less interesting and prevalent moving forward.
[00:23:37] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. I think the, the caveat being as new things come out, like if you can leverage new browser APIs or whatever, AI won’t know about those, and it’s current iteration, and so then, like, you’re still gonna have to build a new thing, which people may be able to use as a SaaS product, or whatever, but yeah, I think the things that exist now, and that AI is learning about, you know, you can be like, [00:24:00] hey, I want a self host super base, and I don’t know how, can you give me all the configs, and like, how would I set it up, and if you can do that trivially at some point, that’d be great.
[00:24:09] Robbie Wagner: Then why would you pay them? You just do it directly. , so I do think that will be, you know, a lot of things will go away. and a lot of things might stay if you’re, if you’re not charging a lot. The barrier to entry is, you know, 10 a month or something. You’re not really incentivized to like learn how to do it yourself.
[00:24:27] Robbie Wagner: If you’re a medium to large size company, the large ones probably already are self hosting a lot of stuff, but like medium size, you know, you’re spending 50, 000 a year on it or something. You’re probably like, that’s too much. I’m going to learn how to host this internally and I’m going to just, you know, take a month and use AI and yeah.
[00:24:46] Robbie Wagner: So I think there’s going to be some disruption there and a lot of things will go away.
[00:24:50] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. Yeah. Or regress back into their former open source selves. I don’t know. It’s hard to say like, and what would will be the ones that become like incredibly [00:25:00] ingrained in uh, companies moving forward,
[00:25:03] Chuck Carpenter: you know, like every company wants analytics. That seems like something that has staying power. Yeah.
[00:25:09] Chuck Carpenter: Like it or not, authentication seems to be around to stay, or at least big players.
[00:25:14] Robbie Wagner: I want all of that in one spot though. whether you like for sell or not these days, I love that they have speed insights and analytics built in. So I just use their component and it just does
[00:25:24] Chuck Carpenter: yeah. They’re the new Google in that way, because how long did people use Google Analytics? Because it was the de facto standard. It was free, quote unquote, even though that just helped power their search engine, right, with
[00:25:38] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. Yeah. It was free with the cost of all of your
[00:25:41] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, free with the cost of your soul, so, you know, give or take on that.
[00:25:45] Chuck Carpenter: but I mean, it is, not, completely not the same model, to a degree. convenience is part of it, and You know, Vercel, I thought, was very developer centric at first. And I, like, failed to [00:26:00] see how, like, you could convert your common developer into enterprise sized billing. But I’ve seen people do that.
[00:26:06] Chuck Carpenter: Um, I’ve seen like the way that you can, like their toolbar is pretty smart and the way that you can bring stakeholders into that and like comment and context and not have to like live in something else like Figma, and not in GitHub. You don’t want them in GitHub, right?
[00:26:22] Chuck Carpenter: Like, but your product person can come to Vercel and understand that enough play with a version of your application and in context, give you the feedback right there.
[00:26:31] Chuck Carpenter: So.
[00:26:32] Robbie Wagner: hmm.
[00:26:33] Chuck Carpenter: It’s kind of nice
[00:26:33] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, it speeds up a lot of processes.
[00:26:35] Chuck Carpenter: yes. Yeah. And they’re integrating some feature flag stuff. I thought they were doing their own, but then I read something about it’s in beta now, but it just like say integrates with like launch darkly or something else.
[00:26:47] Chuck Carpenter: Let you like turn those on and off in the Vercel toolbar. That’s one part of it, but it’s just kind of cool because you can like ship code, have it turned off for everyone and then be like, well, for me, I would like it [00:27:00] on.
[00:27:00] CTA: This just in! Whiskey.fund is now open for all your merch needs. That’s right, Robbie. We’re hearing reports of hats, sweaters, and T-shirts, as well as a link to join our Discord server. What’s a Discord server? Just read the prompter, man. Hit subscribe. Leave us a review on your favorite podcast app and tell your friends about our broadcast. It really does help us reach more people and keeps the show growing. All right, back to your regularly scheduled programming.
[00:27:33] Robbie Wagner: Do we want to talk about the next things? Or do you want to touch on the thing I wrote?
[00:27:38] Chuck Carpenter: I think, uh, I think you, you’ve got a itch to scratch, so we can jump to that.
[00:27:43] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, I just wanted to talk a little bit about what I’ve been doing for the past few weeks or so. , So I actually am going to be using Shepard at work and at work we use Ember. So I’ve been updating Ember Shepard to like, you know, work and have, you know, [00:28:00] And, , it just needed a lot of love because I haven’t really touched it in a while.
[00:28:03] Robbie Wagner: And like anyone who’s worked in Ember in the older days, even if you’re not familiar with it now, like an add on was very magic. You had this broccoli pipeline that would like do a ton of stuff for you. And. Just kind of magic, you know, give you a result and Ember CLI, like controlled all that. And it was very streamlined because if you wanted to update to the next version, originally you could just Ember init and like look at the diffs and, you know, do the blueprints or whatever.
[00:28:31] Robbie Wagner: Then they had Ember CLI update, which made it even easier. You could just like, you know, say, Hey, I want to go to this version. It’ll update everything for you. You know, you can be relatively sure that all your stuff is going to work on the next versions because all the blueprints include ember try to test against other ember versions and whatever now we have like these v2 add ons and there is like technically a blueprint for them i guess but there’s no way to really find information on them like and i guess i guess [00:29:00] i should you know caveat that that there wasn’t a way to find information to do the v1 add on stuff like all the broccoli stuff was hidden in like Some weird spot that I could always randomly find if I needed it.
[00:29:11] Robbie Wagner: But, so maybe I’m complaining about a thing that didn’t ever exist before, but I just had so much practice with it that I like knew how to do it all. And now I feel like one day it’s like, all right, it’s, it’s embroider and it’s web pack and you gotta do all this web pack and fig and you gotta do this stuff.
[00:29:26] Robbie Wagner: And then now it’s like, well, web packs, dumb, let’s do VEET. And like, I agree. But like all the work we’ve put in to like make web pack work and, you know, try to make an ad on that can do special things in an app when you install it is kind of like gone. Like we’re, we’ve lost a lot. We just keep throwing stuff at it, adding new, new features, new tech stacks, new, all this stuff.
[00:29:48] Robbie Wagner: you can figure out how to do it if you ask the people who know, but if you don’t, there’s like no way to, I feel like everyone is getting left behind and by the time they get those developer ergonomics back. everyone will have [00:30:00] left. So it’s like, okay, cool. We can build add ons in a nice way again a year from now But like who’s building them,
[00:30:06] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I, I think I, well, two questions. Well, one is more of an observation. It feels like, from what I’ve heard from you in the last two, three years, is that, like, the speed and depth of, like, heavy handed ways of like doing things and the tools being used for that have been like much faster than it used to be in the past.
[00:30:28] Chuck Carpenter: Like Broccoli was around for a very long time, a very much longer than like the rest of the internet even knew it existed anymore, right? Like, and then it was like, maybe it should be Wegpack or whatever. And by the time things started to come around. It was like, well, everybody else is moving on from Webpack.
[00:30:48] Chuck Carpenter: We’re using Rollup and, Parcel and I don’t know, other things. And then Vite coming into play and all of that. So then that was all happening. so there’s just been a lot of like, Whoa, let’s jump to [00:31:00] those things too. Next. Like very quickly. And then lots of things, right? Like Ember’s changing a bunch along the way.
[00:31:06] Chuck Carpenter: The tooling is changing a bunch along the way. Like I feel like the people that wanted to change these things now have a shot at that and they are taking it. So is that, does that seem like a fair assessment or am I
[00:31:19] Chuck Carpenter: just
[00:31:20] Robbie Wagner: Yeah Yeah, I think Historically ember has been very like this needs to support every version of ember and all the weirdness And whatever and I think now, you know that really held us back because usually libraries would just you know Change the way it works Pull the tools out from under you and be like new major version upgrade or don’t but ember will like Make everything work like we’re using ember 328 with like the latest you know ember cli basically at work because It still works and it’s like, you know over five years old yeah, I think now the the philosophy especially with the embroider initiative that like got some funding and stuff was [00:32:00] Imagine you can use everything you want to use right now, build that, and then work backwards from that to try to add support, like, for some of the older stuff, versus like, starting from supporting everything.
[00:32:11] Robbie Wagner: And that way, if you go, oh, we can only support back to, you know, whatever version, and then we have to say no, because it’s too hard, then you at least get some support. , But before, like, just to get Embroider out the door and working with all apps, it had to be, like, all of these compatibility layers where it’s like, converts V2 add ons to V1 add ons, which means converting all your webpack to broccoli stuff and then injecting that into the broccoli build, like, for the old apps and stuff.
[00:32:37] Robbie Wagner: And, like, it’s cool that all that works, but it took, like, six years to build. So, Yeah, I think there is some of that. There’s less people, and so we’re caring a little bit less, and just building it the cool way, and assuming that most of the people that are left with us, I guess, are on that bleeding edge path.
[00:32:54] Robbie Wagner: Because, like You know, everyone else has left and refactored to react. So like, we don’t care about them. that [00:33:00] being said, I think there’s a lot of people with really large apps that are just like us stuck at like three 28 or, you know, not the newest. so I don’t know where we’re going to go from here, but I do like to see at least the experimentation of let’s use the newest hottest stuff and like Viet will unlock tons of stuff.
[00:33:16] Robbie Wagner: Like you’ll be able to, you know, there used to be fast boot for server side rendering. You can just like tell V render this server side and it’ll just do it. So we’ll get a lot of cool built in stuff automatically if we’re like a fully fledged V plug in basically.
[00:33:30] Chuck Carpenter: I mean, that’s cool, I guess. But like you said, you’re orphaning a bunch of existing applications, potentially in that path and which might result in, okay, there’s a major refactor required here. If that’s the case, why would we stay with Ember? Right? Like, so that makes. That not great. , Maybe you get people interested who didn’t like things about Ember before, but it’s hard to say how many of them were waiting in the sidelines to do [00:34:00] another like Greenfield app with latest Ember now.
[00:34:02] Chuck Carpenter: So that’s
[00:34:03] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. I think there’s something to be said for all of it being a marketing problem.
[00:34:08] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. Well there’s definitely that.
[00:34:10] Robbie Wagner: yeah, Ember should do all this and then be like, we’re, uh, Hot dog diaper Because saying your ember still makes people go. Oh, I tried ember five years ago and
[00:34:23] Chuck Carpenter: I don’t like that. Yeah, exactly.
[00:34:25] Robbie Wagner: But if you’re like we’re this new thing you don’t have to use hooks you can just have tracked properties and it’s kind of signal like and when you update them they update and otherwise your page doesn’t rerender and like You know, it just feels a lot simpler mental model.
[00:34:39] Robbie Wagner: I feel like a lot of people could get behind it If it wasn’t called ember
[00:34:44] Chuck Carpenter: I think Glimmer is your gateway drug, right? Or was gonna be your
[00:34:48] Chuck Carpenter: gateway
[00:34:48] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, that’s You can’t really use it outside of ember I mean you maybe could with a lot of work put into it, but I think not enough people understand how glimmer vm works so it just kind of [00:35:00] died
[00:35:00] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. Well, that makes sense. But I, I remember when that came out and that was sort of like shedding all the weight and complexity and giving you a view layer that you can first understand and then come into and then it just kind of went away. So I don’t know. Yeah, that does sound like a challenge.
[00:35:18] Chuck Carpenter: Here’s the other interesting thing is that a lot of Ember apps are tied, closely tied to Rails APIs. Okay. In the world of increasing popularity to Rails and interest, which is definitely happening, and the marketing is going well there, Rails 8, why not just upgrade to Rails 8 and then do a full fledged Rails application?
[00:35:41] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, I think that is the answer if you ask any of the people who are kind of full stack and have been working on the Rails side too. They’re like, I wish this were just Rails. but, I think there’s good and bad to both. I think the traditional server side rendering things where you’re kind of shipping more HTML than [00:36:00] anything else across the wire is the right way to go.
[00:36:03] Robbie Wagner: I don’t know that every single thing you build in your application should be a React component. Like, your route’s a React component. Your, uh, you know, your ORM, probably React components. You’re like, everything, you got these providers and these hooks and these, like, doesn’t all need to have React. It can be, like You know, shipped from the server in any other language like larval is good rails is good.
[00:36:26] Robbie Wagner: You know anything That is like a traditional thing that has worked forever and his battery’s included. I think
[00:36:32] Chuck Carpenter: Well,
[00:36:33] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, web application framework, right? Like, try to consider those so you don’t have to like, well, now, , what am I going to do for auth? that was the annoying part of react in the early days and create react app is you were creating a react app, quote unquote, but then you were still having to pick a lot of other parts.
[00:36:50] Chuck Carpenter: And that I think is what is like the start of all the confusion is like, , hodgepodge in libraries to become a full fledged application. And now it’s, [00:37:00] it’s the full stack of things. So
[00:37:02] Robbie Wagner: yeah, I mean something like redwood does do it kind of well and still is React based, that was I had an argument with people on Twitter over this because like some guy was like Shitting on web components because they don’t do server-side rendering and he’s like, lol You guys still haven’t called up from 10 years ago when we decided server-side rendering was a thing we should do I just reposted it and was like, I don’t know who needs to hear this But you don’t have to do ssr to build a web app
[00:37:29] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, yeah. And also, HTML renders from the server, basically, when it’s It’s a file that sits on the server that you get a request for and you go, okay, have this one. So the server serves up everything. Like, you didn’t fucking invent server-side render. That’s just called the internet, dude.
[00:37:51] Robbie Wagner: yeah, You know?
[00:37:53] Robbie Wagner: yeah, but, uh, one of the guys that was actually like, you know, making good points was like, you know, Redwood’s good [00:38:00] and like, you know, there are ways to do it in React that aren’t as like hodgepodge shitty as, you know, some of the things people are doing these days. So it’s a give and a take on all sides, I guess.
[00:38:10] Chuck Carpenter: Yes, I was just checking chat. Speaking of, I just remembered that we have chat and sometimes people show up for it. Did you, did you
[00:38:18] Robbie Wagner: there’s not anyone there.
[00:38:19] Chuck Carpenter: we went late and everything else and there was also that.
[00:38:22] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, but we should mention for people listening later Join us most Wednesdays at 5 p. m. Eastern on Twitch or YouTube and chat with us. Also if you’re not wanting to listen live Comment on Spotify user if you’re one of the I think it was 195 people
[00:38:40] Chuck Carpenter: who put us are as, as their number one.
[00:38:43] Robbie Wagner: Number one.
[00:38:44] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, the Spotify raft was today and that’s, , so I, I know at least 194 of those are not me. So, um,
[00:38:52] Chuck Carpenter: Okay.
[00:38:54] Robbie Wagner: yeah, uh, thanks to all those people who have been listening. We have certainly not been getting, any comments at [00:39:00] all. If 190 some of you are listening all the time, please comment. Just say, Hey, you know, maybe we’ll give you free stuff, free swag,
[00:39:07] Robbie Wagner: free codes.
[00:39:08] Chuck Carpenter: gosh, you are spending your child’s college fund right now, but that’s okay. Maybe he’ll get a scholarship.
[00:39:16] Robbie Wagner: Maybe college won’t exist then, but we’re not going to
[00:39:18] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You, you speak about it frequently. So there’s,
[00:39:22] Chuck Carpenter: I’m going to tee up just, cause I’m very interested in security and hardware for various reasons, , lately.
[00:39:29] Chuck Carpenter: Actually, I just had a Flipper Zero arrive yesterday, so I haven’t been able to open it yet, and I want to, like, mess with that and talk about it on here a little bit. Uh, it’s like a pen testing tool, you know, a little, like, , hacking thing. , could be used for nefarious reasons, could be used for real reasons, like people who have, like, multiple clickers in their life.
[00:39:48] Chuck Carpenter: They can aggregate them to this one device. That’s just like a simple thing. And it looks like a little Tamagotchi kind of thing. , but apparently very expandable. So here’s the thing is that I will never get good enough at code or be smart [00:40:00] enough to like. Have meaningful conversations with folks like Dax, or I mean Little Bro.
[00:40:05] Chuck Carpenter: so it’s like, I’ll just explore other things that maybe he doesn’t know about, and then that will like, help me appear , knowledgeable about the thing. If I have layman level knowledge of other things. So just like, that’s why I was like, dropping that in there. and just like, JS for Hardware. I know you can like, do some Node on like, Arduinos and things like that.
[00:40:26] Chuck Carpenter: And I know, , we had Charlie Girard on quite some time ago. talking about different cool things to do on the hardware side as
[00:40:34] Chuck Carpenter: well.
[00:40:35] Robbie Wagner: I mean, if you could install bun on it, you could do whatever you want.
[00:40:38] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, yeah. , You can do a lot of stuff with Bun. Bun’s a little
[00:40:41] Chuck Carpenter: crazy. yeah. Anyway, those were the points there. And we don’t have to go deep into it, so I don’t want to spend
[00:40:46] Chuck Carpenter: a
[00:40:46] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. More next time after you’ve played with
[00:40:48] Chuck Carpenter: Yes, after I have figured out how to break into Robbie’s house.
[00:40:52] Robbie Wagner: not hard. You just, uh, go to where. I have like all glass doors everywhere and just break through the door and walk in
[00:40:59] Chuck Carpenter: [00:41:00] yeah, yeah, you just do that. Uh, he doesn’t have glass sensors on all of them, and so you just like
[00:41:05] Robbie Wagner: Well, even if you had a sensor like I think that whole thing is crazy to me Everyone puts all these dead bolts on their doors, right? but most of the doors have a big glass panel to see through you could just Come in with a sledgehammer and just break right through it and go right
[00:41:18] Chuck Carpenter: Maybe your alarm doesn’t have this, but I have some like where I have bigger windows, and it’s like When I have it in the right mode it turns on these sensors that will like detect breaking glass
[00:41:30] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, I’ve had those before. I think we might have some. There’s sensors on my ceiling that I don’t know what they’re
[00:41:35] Chuck Carpenter: I put those in when I was in town last so just don’t worry about it the red
[00:41:40] Robbie Wagner: But even, even, if they are, like I’m saying, Sure, it, the alarm goes off and maybe within 5 or 10 minutes someone will come, or whatever. Or, if you don’t have it hooked up to monitoring,
[00:41:51] Robbie Wagner: Are you going to be able to call someone? Like, I’m
[00:41:53] Robbie Wagner: saying if
[00:41:53] Chuck Carpenter: the last time it took five to ten minutes come on
[00:41:56] Robbie Wagner: I’m saying if someone wants to, [00:42:00] You know, do you harm or steal an important thing?
[00:42:02] Robbie Wagner: They know where it
[00:42:03] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah,
[00:42:04] Robbie Wagner: They can
[00:42:04] Robbie Wagner: just do it. So like, what’s the point of all the security and you know, whatever,
[00:42:09] Chuck Carpenter: Well, I mean, I think the reality is that’s a great question. Like, true, like, personal safety or even just protecting your things and valuables. in a circumstance where someone has the information and believes they can get in and out in, like, two minutes. Um, What’s stopping them? Probably nothing.
[00:42:27] Chuck Carpenter: You know, unlikely if you have like internal cameras and a whole bunch of other I started going down the path of like home automation and then it just the easy path for that Kind of creeps me out about how much i’m sending out to the internet in order to loop back to a device That’s already in my house So I think if I ever went down this path again Which isn’t saying that I wouldn’t because I definitely would like I thought home assistant is really cool and z wave and like closed network stuff and whatever that would be appealing to me like getting a bunch of [00:43:00] Alexa stuff again and like turning that on and like I like that I have them on timers and all kinds of other crazy stuff But on the other hand is you for a little more work you can accomplish that with a closed circuit loop there
[00:43:15] Chuck Carpenter: So I think I would consider that again next time
[00:43:18] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. I’m too far into like everything being wireless, but yeah, there’s a lot you can do if you plan ahead, You can get, big system, like a big box that you plug like all of your electric wires into basically for all your lights. And then you can have like buttons everywhere that can like toggle things.
[00:43:36] Robbie Wagner: You can have like a whole house off button, like all this shit with just like inside your house. But like that’s much easier if you’re building the house from scratch.
[00:43:45] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, yeah, when you have to do drops and rewire and all that kind of stuff and you don’t have those skills yourself, or you just don’t want to be crawling around a bunch of uncomfortable places, totally makes sense. I don’t know. We’ll see. I do find all that stuff intriguing. I do think there’s a [00:44:00] convenience and a safety factor there.
[00:44:01] Chuck Carpenter: But I just, like, I never put inside cameras in. Because I was like, I do not want to send that to the internet. I also felt like with, like, babysitters and things like that, That shit is just kind of creepy.
[00:44:13] Robbie Wagner: Yeah.
[00:44:13] Chuck Carpenter: opted out. No, I wouldn’t appreciate that. But you see the people who do. And they’re usually
[00:44:20] Robbie Wagner: Oh
[00:44:20] Robbie Wagner: yeah.
[00:44:20] Chuck Carpenter: great people.
[00:44:21] Chuck Carpenter: So, I don’t want to be lumped into that.
[00:44:23] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, things that I do want to lump you into is people who really love Wicked
[00:44:28] Chuck Carpenter: M’kay. So Went to see it with, , my family, so they were interested. I don’t like musicals, so I was just like, I just, I don’t know, you know, I can deal with some like, singing Disney movies, but like, true musicals are like, almost all The
[00:44:44] Chuck Carpenter: dialogue is a fucking song. It was okay, there was a lot of singing there too, like, yeah, and we was, Fine.
[00:44:51] Chuck Carpenter: I think the reason that I like, I liked Wicked was that there was more for me to pursue. I like digging [00:45:00] into a backstory. So like some of the things I liked in the movie were just like tie-ins to Oz, like the Wizard of Oz. So you would like, oh, Ruby Red slippers are there and here’s this. Like she’s riding a bicycle and I don’t know if you care or there’s any spoilers here, but like
[00:45:15] Robbie Wagner: And
[00:45:15] Robbie Wagner: we’re streaming so I wouldn’t do any
[00:45:17] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, so it’s like, you know, there’s connections to the original movie. So I thought that was cool. And then I saw a thing saying, like, the musical is very loosely based on the book, by the way. So, like, don’t let your kids read the book. Not safe for them. not, like, good content for, for kids. So I was like, oh, that’s interesting.
[00:45:36] Chuck Carpenter: What is this story? I was annoyed they split it into two parts. Like, that sucks. It’s a fucking three hour movie. And I only got part one. So then I was like, well, I want to jump ahead and know what’s happening here. And then just reading the whole story, I was like, well, that’s cool. I think the story is cool.
[00:45:52] Chuck Carpenter: I have to endure a bunch of songs. Casting was fine for me, but I, you know, like Ariana Grande, like I’m not the [00:46:00] demographic. I’m not, I’m not that interested.
[00:46:02] Robbie Wagner: don’t like Ariana
[00:46:03] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. She was a little funnier than I thought she would be. and outside of that, it was like, eh, but the story is cool. Just based on that. I found it more interesting.
[00:46:12] Chuck Carpenter: So I guess it was okay.
[00:46:13] Chuck Carpenter: No Gladiator 2. I would see that. So.
[00:46:16] Robbie Wagner: Gladiator 1 was amazing. So I know Gladiator 2 is gonna be trash,
[00:46:20] Robbie Wagner: but I will still see it
[00:46:21] Chuck Carpenter: yeah, I still see it. Well, that’s the thing. For me, when I go to the movies, also, like, you know, they were on break through for Thanksgiving, and they went and saw Moana, too. I mean, I’ll see it because it’s going to end up on Disney Plus and streamed 14 times, so.
[00:46:37] Chuck Carpenter: But I would not go to a theater to see that. I know. And Wicked, for me personally, probably wouldn’t go to a theater to see that. But the kids are like, they love going to the movies. It’s a real special thing.
[00:46:47] Robbie Wagner: yeah, I imagine Moana 2 is also a letdown because
[00:46:52] Robbie Wagner: Frozen 2 was terrible. I mean terrible is is an exaggeration. It wasn’t awful, but like one was so good [00:47:00] It’s like it doesn’t hold
[00:47:01] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, yeah. It’s just not as good. It’s just the source material in Frozen and all of that and like the fact that Elsa is the actual, you know, the evil character really more than anything, I think, because like , the original Hans Christian Anderson is called the, the ice queen or something like that.
[00:47:19] Chuck Carpenter: And so like she’s the terrible one doing all these terrible things to her sister. Always pushing her sister away and yada yada yada. So Anyway, I digress around that. when I go to the movies, I want like huge fantastical thing for my like 20 ticket, you know, and then times at least two and
[00:47:40] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, if you’re getting snacks and doing all yeah, you’re several hundred dollars in if you’re counting babysitters and Potential like, you know dinner before or anything like it. You can’t do anything for cheap these days
[00:47:51] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I was just saying that the other day. We went for a hike and went to a place called The Farm. Not too far from where we did a hike. And it’s like [00:48:00] a working pecan farm. And they have all this stuff. And like everything there is, , you know, farm to table kind of stuff. But it’s like a simple lunch place.
[00:48:06] Chuck Carpenter: And so , sandwiches and salads. But all like fresh things grown in the area. And I was like, cool. I’m gonna get this like, It was a short rib banh mi on French bread. Sounds amazing, but it’s just a sandwich. You got no sides or whatever else. Twenty dollars. Twenty dollar sandwich? Is that where we’re at?
[00:48:23] Robbie Wagner: Depends on, yeah, I mean, I think a lot of places are just like, this is not something I fault them for, except for it sucks for everyone. just charge a high price. If people start saying no, you lower the price. Like if people are still buying it, why should they care?
[00:48:38] Chuck Carpenter: Oh, that’s true. Yeah, that’s our fault for saying like, Okay, we accept that. Like,
[00:48:42] Chuck Carpenter: for
[00:48:43] Robbie Wagner: yeah, if everyone was like, I don’t care how convenient it is, like, I’m not going to eat here. Then they would go like, huh? No one’s eating here. Yeah.
[00:48:50] Chuck Carpenter: Right, I’m going out of business.
[00:48:51] Chuck Carpenter: I’ve actually kind of started to, uh, scale back and try not, I want to not do DoorDash or anything else as much as possible. That’s like
[00:48:59] Chuck Carpenter: one
[00:48:59] Chuck Carpenter: of
[00:48:59] Chuck Carpenter: [00:49:00] my big goals moving forward. The fee, like, they, sometimes they’ll bump the menu prices. The fees are on top of there, plus your tip.
[00:49:09] Chuck Carpenter: And then like,
[00:49:10] Chuck Carpenter: I mean, I feel like it’s been getting worse and worse in terms of like, quality of the food in this takeout situation because I’m not there to be like, oh, this sucks. You know, they’ll take it, whatever, mistakes in, the order and I don’t know if that’s, I mean, a lot of times they’ve done a really good job of like sealing orders and things like that.
[00:49:28] Chuck Carpenter: So I would say now it’s a restaurant problem too that I can’t really fix. , and then the third thing is like, I’ve had just delivery issues like, Hey, I’m three blocks away. I couldn’t find you. And if you can’t like answer the call in five minutes, they just basically leave it. I’ve had them just leave it in random places and only like one of the times was able to find it.
[00:49:49] Chuck Carpenter: It was like across the street in that lobby. Like there’s an address on this and there’s an address on that building.
[00:49:56] Robbie Wagner: yeah.
[00:49:56] Chuck Carpenter: you land on that?
[00:49:58] Robbie Wagner: Yeah.
[00:49:59] Robbie Wagner: We had a [00:50:00] guy that drove back and forth in front of our house for literally 30 minutes. And he was like, I can’t find your house. And I’m like, You drove back and forth for 30 minutes and didn’t think to like, get out of your car, look at the mailboxes, try to find anyone’s address, like, work backwards from an address you do know, like,
[00:50:17] Robbie Wagner: Oh, but yeah, I think, I don’t know, this isn’t necessarily a hot take, per se, what is, what’s the word for this, like, I guess a, Cross between a hot take prediction, conspiracy theory, something.
[00:50:29] Robbie Wagner: I think, you know, millennials decided we wanted this convenience and it’s not sustainable. It doesn’t make money. All of us are going to be out of jobs with AI. We won’t be able to pay for these extra fees for this. It will go away. All of the people who work in stuff like this, who like, Are you know?
[00:50:49] Robbie Wagner: Unskilled labor doing this or will then also be out of jobs. No one will have any jobs. We’re kind of fucked
[00:50:55] Chuck Carpenter: yeah. Yeah, these like, high price, off the cuff [00:51:00] delivery things, the, this whole like, extra economy of things. I mean, there’s already been workarounds in some of it, like Chick fil A does their own delivery, and
[00:51:09] Chuck Carpenter: I think like
[00:51:10] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, and I think restaurants that can sustain it will maintain that and I think the general ability to get You know 80 percent of the restaurants you’re interested in delivered to you is gonna go away I mean, especially as people are forced RTO RTO is a big backer of that you had When remote work is less of a thing, and I think it’s going to be for a while, you just can’t help it because, Oh, I prefer, but I also prefer work to a job.
[00:51:37] Chuck Carpenter: So, you know, if it became between like, Oh, well, here’s a, decent job that I respect. And I’ve been on the market for, four months or whatever else, like I’m going to need to do the right thing here. then you take the job like, you know, whatever your intentions are beyond that, but like you take the job and now you’re in an office and now you’re like, you’re not door dashing to your fucking house.
[00:51:59] Chuck Carpenter: [00:52:00] So,
[00:52:00] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, that’s true. I mean, I think a lot of stuff is regressing and I don’t understand why like Gen Z basically thinks that everything that millennials thought was good is bad. And they’re cool with that. They want it to all be the opposite, just cause like, they can’t agree with us. And I’m like, well that’s a fucking dumb reason to decide that, but like, Yeah, like, they like malls again, and like, They’re probably like, oh, being in an office everyday sounds dope, I would love to do that.
[00:52:26] Robbie Wagner: you know, I just feel like, I don’t know where things are going, and You know, I’m just going to ride, hopefully have a job and ride it as long as I
[00:52:34] Chuck Carpenter: right. Yeah. You know, pay your bills, keep your heads down, head down and keep a look at legitimate opportunities. That’s kind of all you can do.
[00:52:43] Robbie Wagner: Yeah.
[00:52:44] Robbie Wagner: And on that note, I think it’s time to end here. I need to pretty late for dinner tonight. So see if there’s still some up there and
[00:52:51] Chuck Carpenter: Are you going to have some loose meat?
[00:52:53] Robbie Wagner: I don’t, I’m not really sure what that means,
[00:52:55] Chuck Carpenter: was the, what was the sloppy joe? What do you call sloppy
[00:52:58] Chuck Carpenter: joe?
[00:52:58] Robbie Wagner: uh, [00:53:00] uh, hot beef.
[00:53:04] Chuck Carpenter: Somebody was fucking with you and never gave you the punchline. I gotta say, hot beef.
[00:53:09] Robbie Wagner: That sounds better than loose
[00:53:11] Chuck Carpenter: Uh, loose meat sandwich is actually a thing that people wouldn’t know what it is It’s essentially like a sloppy joe kind of thing except for without that sauce But you know how it’s like broken up hamburger meat.
[00:53:22] Robbie Wagner: Sure it just sounds
[00:53:23] Chuck Carpenter: yeah, yeah. but hot beef is fine. Would you like a hot beef injection, Robby?
[00:53:29] Robbie Wagner: I would not.
[00:53:30] Chuck Carpenter: Okay, so, anyway, on that note, Happy Holidays! Ciao.
[00:53:37] Outro: You’ve been watching Whiskey Web and Whatnot. Recorded in front of a live studio audience. What the fuck are you talking about, Chuck? Enjoyed the show? Subscribe. You know, people don’t pay attention to these, right? Head to whiskey.fund for merchant to join our Discord server. I’m serious, it’s like 2% of people who actually click these links. [00:54:00] And don’t forget to leave us a five star review and tell your friends about the show. All right, dude, I’m outta here. Still got it.