Whiskey Web and Whatnot

A whiskey fueled fireside chat with your favorite web developers.


103: Tech Talk, TypeScript, and Empowering Engineers with Shaundai Person

Show Notes

Shaundai Person, Senior Software Engineer at Netflix, is a TypeScript convert, educator, and advocate for the programming language. But her unconventional journey started as a self-taught engineer working in sales before discovering her passion for coding during maternity leave.

Shaundai candidly shares her personal journey from initially disliking TypeScript to becoming an enthusiastic advocate for its adoption. As a self-taught engineer, Shaundai describes her transformation from a "YOLO" coding mindset to appreciating the structured benefits that TypeScript offers, leading to more organized and efficient codebases. Her upcoming course, "TypeScript for JavaScript Developers," aims to bridge the gap between skepticism and appreciation for TypeScript, helping engineers embrace its potential for making a meaningful impact on their projects and careers.

In this episode, Shaundai talks to Chuck and Robbie about how she landed her role at Netflix, her journey from being a TypeScript skeptic to an advocate, and her TypeScript course called Typescript to Javascript.

Key Takeaways

  • [00:43] - Introduction to Shaundai Person.
  • [04:03] - A whiskey review: S.N. Pike’s Magnolia Rye Whiskey Bottled in Bond.
  • [13:09] - Tech hot takes.
  • [31:44] - Shaundai talks about her course, Typescript for Javascript Developers.
  • [41:04] - Why Shaundai was learning rails and golang.
  • [46:30] - What are Shaundai’s favorite Netflix shows?


[31:55] - “TypeScript was something I hated until I learned what the purpose was.” ~ Shaundai Person

[34:11] - “I was in love with JavaScript because it fit my personal values.” ~ Shaundai Person

[51:39] - “If I can spend time with the people that I love in the ways that I want to, then this is the most beautiful life that I can imagine for myself.” ~ Shaundai Person


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[00:00:05] Robbie: What's going on, everybody? Welcome to another Whiskey Web and Whatnot, with myself, RobbieTheWagner, and my co host, as always, Charles William Carpenter the Third. You almost have to say something every time,

[00:00:19] Chuck: I know, I felt obligated. I didn't want to this time. And, uh, you peer pressure me into it. You give that awkward pause.

[00:00:27] Robbie: yeah. Anyway, our guest today is Shaundai Person. How's it going?

[00:00:33] Shaundai: Great. Thank you for having me on. Excited. I talked with y'all today.

[00:00:37] Robbie: For folks that have not maybe heard of you, could you, uh, give us a couple of sentences about who you are and what you do?

[00:00:44] Shaundai: Sure. Yeah, I'm Shaundai Person. I am a senior software engineer at Netflix. I'm based in Georgia, Atlanta, Georgia area in the United States. For those of us who are international, , I am a front end developer and I work on our productivity tools, which are the tools. for essentially making other Netflix engineers, , more productive. Aside from that, I speak at conferences a bunch. I also have been working on a course on TypeScript, which is called TypeScript for JavaScript Developers. You can find out more about it, , and get updates by signing up on the mailing list, ts4js.com, that's t s f o r j s dot com. It's essentially a course for teaching you TypeScript, but with the intention of Using TypeScript at an enterprise organization that is going to be shipping TypeScript to Prod. So, that's me in a nutshell. And the last part is that I'm a mom. I'm a mom of a five year old who you may hear because he's got a lot of energy. He's downstairs. But it's been a, I guess a day that he had ice cream at school or at his camp today. So, um, you'll get what you get.

[00:01:54] Chuck: Yep, yep, we welcome it. Bring it on. You know, if you give him a little sip of this whiskey, it might help.

[00:01:59] Shaundai: That, hey, hey, that's some solid parenting.

[00:02:03] Chuck: That's, uh, you know, that's

[00:02:04] Robbie: Start them early.

[00:02:06] Chuck: for you. Yeah, I grew up in Kentucky, so you know, you're a little rambunctious. Here's a little, little cap, a little cap of this.

[00:02:12] Robbie: Daddy's tired. Here you go.

[00:02:13] Chuck: one. Yeah, daddy tired. Oh boy. Yeah, so, you know, and that probably explains, Yeah, yeah, that probably explains a lot about me.

[00:02:22] Robbie: Yeah,

[00:02:22] Chuck: So. Anyway, so it's funny you said that you were working on internal tools at Netflix. I'm just curious offhand, because Robbie, when you did work for Netflix, didn't you work on internal tools? Did you delete any of Robbie's code? That's what I want to know.

[00:02:36] Robbie: no, it was probably different teams. I use and did internal tools for like the finance team to use, not for devs to use. So like, it was like studio finance team. I assume that's not the team you're working on or,

[00:02:50] Shaundai: No, no, I am. Um, yeah, no, I'm the tools that I'm working on right now. It's new stuff. I don't know how long ago it was that you were at Netflix, but, um, this is new things, , for anybody who knows the internals of Netflix. One of our bigger issues is that we have a lot of disparate tools to do different things. We've built a lot of tools in house and then, , We have scaffolded off of like different Other things that other companies are using to get us from point A to point B or to Z. They're all in different places and the documentation is all in different places. And so part of what we're doing is building a system that consolidates everything under a common UI. And, also just gives people a single point of reference so that things are more discoverable. Or you start on day one as a Netflix engineer and you're not like... Oh, what's the tool for, building, you know, circus tents? Oh, it's called Atlas. Like, it makes no sense, you know? So, we're helping to make onboarding and, , moving to different teams and migrating tools a lot more seamless. Yes.

[00:03:57] Chuck: Okay, now that does spark a number of follow up questions, but I'm going to put a pin in it for now. Because we're really here for one reason. and that is the whiskey. So, here we go. take it away Chuck, what are we having today? Uh,

[00:04:11] Robbie: I assumed you would just go right into it, didn't know I had to introduce you.

[00:04:15] Chuck: I mean, you know, we, we, uh, we each have our jobs and you failed. Uh, so this is S. N. Pike's Magnolia Bottled in Bond Rye Whiskey. Uh, so bottled in bond means it's, uh, 100 proof. , it used to be a federal thing and, , was taxed based on its proof and had to be at this actual, they would go and inspect in the rickhouses. , The bottles, and then they would put like a government tax seal over the top, and then it no longer is a thing, it's just kind of a fun thing to talk about. Uh, so this rye is 95% rye, 5% malted barley, and it's aged at least four years, but people are cheap so it's probably just four years. I mean, why would they go beyond that? You know, bottle it at that point. , let's see what we got.

[00:04:58] Robbie: Smells like banana Sprite to me.

[00:05:01] Chuck: Huh. You, you, it does, I do get a little banana peel.

[00:05:05] Shaundai: Banana Sprite.

[00:05:07] Chuck: You know, there's always money in the banana stand. So, um, I think you affected me on that a little bit though. Like, um, Bananas Foster or something like

[00:05:16] Robbie: Yeah, maybe a little of that.

[00:05:17] Chuck: getting.

[00:05:18] Shaundai: It is something sweet. Sweet and nutty. By the way, I have my holiday Jack Daniel's glass.

[00:05:25] Chuck: Very nice.

[00:05:27] Shaundai: for Christmas you get, with every Jack Daniel's bottle that you buy, you get a, uh, nice little festive glass. And so this has been my whiskey glass of choice recently.

[00:05:38] Chuck: nice. Love it. It's on brand.

[00:05:40] Robbie: Yeah, I have some little thing that, uh, I found in my parents, uh, cabinet,

[00:05:45] Chuck: looks like a, a cord, it's like a cordial glass and they come in various shapes but like typically the stemmed like tulip glasses like that are like a cordial glass. I have a drinking problem. I mean, it's not a problem for me, but my, my loved ones maybe feel differently.

[00:06:00] Shaundai: Just give him the cap full of whiskey. That's what you

[00:06:02] Chuck: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. That is kind of sweet for a rye. It's very smooth for a hundred proof too. Um, it's got a little more of like an orange rind or some kind of rind bitterness on the finish. Oh, there's a little burn. Not bad. But yeah, it is...

[00:06:20] Shaundai: I feel like I could drink this straight. Like a lot of, uh, whiskeys and really rice. Um, I have a hard time drinking it straight because of that burn, but this isn't, it's a very mild burn.

[00:06:31] Chuck: Yeah, yeah, it's like enough to let you know it's there without getting too crazy.

[00:06:36] Robbie: Yeah, I'm still getting a lot of something fruity, like... It almost feels like candy, maybe some runts or something.

[00:06:43] Shaundai: Yeah.

[00:06:43] Chuck: It's opening up a little bit for me though. I'm starting to get a little floral in the, in the aroma.

[00:06:49] Robbie: I'm past the aroma, I'm drinking it now.

[00:06:51] Chuck: Mm hmm. Okay.

[00:06:55] Shaundai: on this podcast?

[00:06:56] Chuck: Oh, absolutely, you may.

[00:06:57] Robbie: you can do as much or as little as you want, yeah.

[00:07:00] Chuck: Yep, yep. That's kind of the cool part about it. Yeah, if you chug it, you would be the first to, like, take shots.

[00:07:06] Shaundai: Ooh.

[00:07:07] Chuck: I would applaud that.

[00:07:08] Shaundai: I

[00:07:09] Chuck: Um,

[00:07:10] Shaundai: being a pioneer.

[00:07:11] Chuck: Yeah. I'm getting a kind of, like, tobacco leaf, right? A little bit,

[00:07:16] Robbie: I chew on a lot of tobacco leaves.

[00:07:19] Chuck: I have tried that like twice in my life. I don't recommend it. It wasn't great, but um... This is fine. Like, it's just one of the flavors I'm kind of picking up on. We have a very, uh, strict scale, uh, for rating these. 8 tentacles. Uh, 1 being terrible. I never want this again. I guess you could say 0 if you want. Why not? We're, we're engineers. We can

[00:07:38] Robbie: can do halves.

[00:07:40] Chuck: Yeah, halves. It's like star search. Three and a quarter stars. so, 8 being amazing, love this, have it all the time, every time. , and then obviously everything in between. So four just means, like, yeah, it's pretty good, it's middle of the road for me. We started segmenting them by types of whiskey, because we have a bunch of it, but you certainly don't need to. Um, so yeah, we'll, we'll, uh, talk about this in the sense of, for us at least, uh, comparative to other rise. Robbie will go first and show you how it's done, though.

[00:08:06] Robbie: Okay, thanks for throwing me under the bus there. Um, yeah, so in terms of our baseline rye, we always go back to a sagamore. Compared to that, I think it's kind of a different category. It's like not quite as spicy. It doesn't feel quite the same as ryes, but I quite like it. I like all the fruit flavors. It's interesting for a rye. It's like much different flavors than I'm used to. I think I'm going to give it a six and a half.

[00:08:31] Chuck: That's fair, that's fair. , Shonday, do you have any thoughts?

[00:08:36] Shaundai: I, I, I like how mild it is. But mild. Without being too mild. I feel like it's just the right combination. Robbie, you mentioned the the sweetness of it. Normally, I'll mix it with Coke or diet coke. I don't feel like I need to do that. feel like I could just take my time and enjoy it and Um, not feel all of that burn in my chest is given just enough burn so that you know that it's, it's a whiskey and you know, it's going to do its job, but, , without any of the harsh taste, or feeling like I'm going to wake up tomorrow with a sore throat. So I would, I'd give this a seven actually I would, would, would recommend to friends.

[00:09:14] Chuck: Yeah, yeah, I'm um, in the 6. 5 to 7 range myself, just because it's so unique. , the flavor does kind of like go away fairly quickly, . Which is not bad, right? It doesn't linger a bunch. There isn't a bunch of burn there. I don't feel like I'm going to get heartburn afterwards, which happens sometimes. And it is unique. So I would, I think I would recommend that people try this. I think, uh, I don't know what it costs. I take cost into account sometimes where I'm like, Oh, a bunch of hype and it was 80 bucks and it's just okay. It's just as good as a 25 bottle. ,

[00:09:47] Robbie: I think it was like 40 to 60 somewhere in that range. Like it's not too bad.

[00:09:51] Chuck: Yeah, not bad. I would, I think I'd give it a 7 as well. I think it's like, unique. If you like Rise, but you want to kind of stretch your palate a little bit, I think this is a nice one to go with. I'm surprised, too, for just a 4 year, it's got a, it's got a lot of range. I would wonder if they let it go a couple more years, if it might get, like, That much better. Like if they have something that's aged a little longer or maybe a barrel, you know, barrel strength or something like that, that, uh, I might do something for it. So, but yeah, I agree. I think it's pretty good. I'm going to give it a seven and I'll continue to sip it. I won't give this bottle away. That doesn't happen a ton, but sometimes I'm like, this is terrible, someone else needs to have this, I'm not even gonna finish it, that's how bad it is.

[00:10:33] Robbie: Yeah. Only a

[00:10:33] Chuck: other times, when they are, yeah, only a few times that I've had that experience. Other times it'll just be because we end up with a bunch of whiskey, I'm, uh, if we're invited for dinner or whatever else, not Robbie and I, I don't socialize with him, but, uh, you bring a bottle and leave it, and then you're nice to your friends at that point, so.

[00:10:49] Shaundai: Can I ask, what's the worst whiskey that you've tasted? Is it like, at the top of your memory? I know the worst one that I've tasted.

[00:10:57] Chuck: Mmm.

[00:10:58] Robbie: We, we know, uh, the one that Chuck had to get another whiskey mid episode was, uh, the Hudson short stack. It was like a maple

[00:11:06] Chuck: is it the pancake one or something? Yeah, that was terrible. And it was like, 60, 70 for only a 3. 75? It was horrible. And I absolutely gave that away. Only because my brother tried it and he was like, Oh, I don't mind it. And I was like, pfft, yours. Take it away from me. Yeah, that one was definitely bad. What was yours?

[00:11:25] Shaundai: Um, that peanut butter whiskey. I think

[00:11:28] Robbie: Oh, yeah, that one's terrible. Yeah.

[00:11:30] Shaundai: Yeah. And I love peanut butter so much and people were like, there were multiple people from different areas of life that were like, you will love this. But um, I realized you can't trust everybody with their whiskey tastes. Like some people are, you know, more cocktail, margarita type of people. Those aren't the whiskey people that you, like, you don't want to talk to

[00:11:49] Chuck: you want. If they like Fireball, just stay

[00:11:52] Shaundai: right,

[00:11:53] Chuck: them. Their suggestions. I mean, they might be fine friends. Just, you know, they don't have good

[00:11:58] Shaundai: Right, you

[00:11:58] Chuck: Yeah. I I got that Yeah, I tried that stuff for free once. And only once. And I was like I felt ripped off still.

[00:12:07] Robbie: Yeah,

[00:12:07] Chuck: like, here, try this out. And I

[00:12:09] Robbie: we should have been

[00:12:10] Chuck: have you done this to

[00:12:10] Robbie: Yeah,

[00:12:11] Shaundai: You should have

[00:12:11] Chuck: why have you done this to me? What did I ever do to you? Can I make amends so we never cross this this bridge again? So. Uh, yeah, and also I guess you'll never be able to move to, uh, to Europe.

[00:12:24] Shaundai: Oh,

[00:12:24] Chuck: peanut butter Yeah, that's the big thing. If you go to If you go to Europe, they don't have peanut butter, so they want you to bring peanut butter and pancake mix. That was a big thing. With, uh, at least in like Italy and Spain and stuff, they don't have pancakes really. So, it's just not the same sponginess or whatever. I think it's like a baking powder thing

[00:12:43] Robbie: all the chemicals.

[00:12:45] Chuck: Yeah, there's that too. I don't know. I have, I have, I have sent some, , Bisquick or whatever else a couple of times.

[00:12:52] Shaundai: That's uh, that's a

[00:12:54] Chuck: Fun fact. Yeah. Nutella's good, though. So, you know, that's your trade off.

[00:12:59] Shaundai: Yeah, yeah, it's not peanut

[00:13:01] Chuck: we... No,

[00:13:02] Shaundai: sorry.

[00:13:02] Chuck: it's not. Alright, should we... Should we jump into some hot takes?

[00:13:07] Robbie: Let's do it.

[00:13:08] Chuck: started drinking.

[00:13:09] Robbie: You want me to start?

[00:13:10] Chuck: Well, I'm not gonna start.

[00:13:12] Robbie: Why didn't know you were doing this whole thing about like, you need to do stuff at a certain time or whatever, but anyway, um, so our first hot take for TypeScript to use inferred types or explicit types.

[00:13:24] Inferred types vs explicit

[00:13:24] Shaundai: inferred types, inferred types. It's the whiskey already. Um,

[00:13:28] Chuck: Mhm.

[00:13:28] Shaundai: the, I would say inferred types. As the general rule, , start with inferred types, and let TypeScript do its thing. Trust it. It's like a relationship. Sorry, I use a lot of analogies, and I'm not going to apologize for it. I was about to

[00:13:43] Robbie: No,

[00:13:44] Chuck: No,

[00:13:44] Shaundai: I use a lot of analogies. So it's like a relationship. You want to trust that the other person is going to do the right thing. You want to go in without, you know, being in defensive mode. You want to trust TypeScript as if it's your, your partner. Trust that it's there to do the right thing and, and be there for you through thick and thin. And, , use the inferred types. I would say use explicit types when TypeScript asks for it. You'll quickly start to get to that point where you're getting little red squigglies and it is asking for types, but, , as much as you can use inferred types, go for inferred.

[00:14:19] Robbie: Yeah,

[00:14:20] Chuck: pretty reasonable. I always think, like, there's no right answer, because context matters, right? You know, it's like the context at which you're making things is the right answer. But I think trust is good. the next hot take. Is it even hot take anymore?

[00:14:33] Robbie: It's cooling down. Yeah

[00:14:35] Tailwind vs vanilla CSS

[00:14:35] Chuck: Alrighty, Tailwind or Vanilla CSS?

[00:14:38] Shaundai: I'm gonna get a lot of shit for this. So... Heh.

[00:14:42] Chuck: sorry we put you on the spot.

[00:14:43] Shaundai: Yeah, cause it's like, neither one is one that I would cape for. What I like about Tailwind is that it is, you know, more of a CSS framework type of thing. it's easy to duplicate, , the styles because you can just use these, , I forget what they're called, like, essentially variables for things and I'm all about using the variables and, , using frameworks. I love frameworks because it takes you to another level of abstraction, doesn't away our job as developers or programmers. It just makes things easier for us, makes them scalable and repeatable. One thing that I don't like is that the names are so long and ugly , that just drives me nuts as a very detail oriented person. , that kind of thing just gets on my nerves. That being said though, , when it comes to CSS, when you get to very complicated, , styling, It starts to get really ugly as well. At Netflix, what we're using is our internal styling system that is based off of material UI. , they've put in so many great things in place where I can just put in a variable, , this is the primary button versus the secondary button and it just automatically puts in all of the, you know, Netflix branded styling for me. , When I want to do something a little bit more complicated, it starts to get, like, really heavy with the amount of declarations that I'm making. guess I kind of sided with both. I had to choose, I'll choose Tailwind because of the whole framework, repeatability, scalability, , aspect of it.

[00:16:19] Chuck: Yeah. I dig that. There's preference, there's opinion, and then there's just something that just solves a problem and lets you think about other things. That's essentially where I ended up landing, because I was just like... This is ugly. Why do I have to put a billion classes? It seems like I'm repeating myself a bunch. Oh, I guess if you get a little smarter about componentize more things and la la la. And, wait, I don't have to do all these things? Alright, I'm in. I don't care. If it makes me lazy and lets me think about something else, then I'm usually in. That's a good sales pitch for me. Wanna be lazy? Yes.

[00:16:53] Shaundai: I think probably with most of the answers to these, I don't know what hot takes you're going to, , ask me, but I think with a lot of my hot takes, I'm not very opinionated when it comes to most technical things, I explore the trade offs and I think this is just a whole aside, some people find their value as an engineer, really more content creators. They'll find their value as somebody who's very opinionated and they can speak about the benefits of this one thing. they'll kind of bash all of the other things. Part of my job is to be able to raise something up as okay This is the conclusion that I've come to or this is the opinion that I've formed but also explain the trade offs I'll always come in with a hot take or an opinion I'll start with discussing the trade offs like It depends is always my start of my answer and this is where you could go with this and this is where you can go with that. These are the trade offs for both. And I think that is one of my strengths as an engineer for people who are listening, who are, , growing in their career or just starting out their careers or even people who are well into their careers. I think that, , it's a great opportunity. skill to be able to identify these are the good things about this. These are the good things about that, weighing off these trade offs and what we're expecting to achieve. This is why I decided this and to be able to communicate that to your team. I feel like this is good practice for me. So this is like, a great thing. And I want to show this to my manager and be like, you know what? Look at your

[00:18:18] Chuck: well, I was gonna say, I think that you're showcasing a trait, and I was initially gonna say, like, okay, and those, to me, are the things that kind of show a senior engineer, but I don't know that that's always the case, because I think that people have their strengths and weaknesses, certainly, and folks who will, like, die on the sword. I think you're showing a trait that is good for someone who is suited to be a teacher or a mentor in the space, and obviously those are things you're already doing, so you already see that in yourself. But what I really want to know is, you've revealed that you've never listened to one of our shows, what can we do to bring you on board? Aside from send you free whiskey.

[00:18:58] Shaundai: What did I

[00:18:59] Chuck: You're like, I don't know what the hot takes are, and I'm thinking like, ah, we've been doing these same four questions

[00:19:03] Shaundai: Oh no!

[00:19:04] Chuck: Couple of months now, give or take, and I'm like, she does not know what they are.

[00:19:11] Shaundai: You know what I was thinking though? When we first started I was like I need to listen to this show because you combine all the things that I'm interested in. Another aside is that, , one of the ways I, , ended up at Netflix, or probably the primary reason that I ended up at Netflix is because of my manager. He has a podcast called front end happy hour, and it talks about my favorite things, front end. And I'm like, Oh my God, this is amazing. So I binge listened to it. I tweeted at him. He ended up tweeting back at me. We became mutuals. And then, , the relationship just was like fostered from there. It was like a two year thing before I ended up actually applying to Netflix. And I was like, I want to work on this guy's team. All that being said, I feel like whiskey web. And whatever whatnot is, is all my things, so I feel like I would really enjoy, , listening to this podcast. because I don't commute anymore, I was listening to Friend and Happy Hour when I was commuting, , I just haven't been listening to podcasts as much now I feel like I need to take some time out as I'm going for my walks and listening to these hot takes and all

[00:20:18] Chuck: Right, there you go. And then you'll, you'll hear others, , feedback, uh, on some of these things. And, you know, everybody kind of has their, their opinion or whatever position on that. And some people are neutral, so there is, some of that too. I try not to get, like, too wrapped up in, in any of these things. I mean, I obviously have my own feelings about how I would do it, but I also take into account... The people I'm working with and respecting their opinions and, all of that. Anyway, uh, sorry I called you out there a little bit, but I just thought it was funny, more than anything. I, I, I also don't like the sound of my, my voice, so, you know, it's up to you. Um, the, okay,

[00:20:56] Robbie: It's just the microphones.

[00:20:58] Chuck: yeah, yeah, that's really the only thing. Like, if you get a nice microphone and, uh, some decent lighting, you can just do whatever you want. Yeah.

[00:21:09] Shaundai: my second.

[00:21:10] Chuck: Yes, love it.

[00:21:11] Robbie: So who is your manager? Is it, uh, I know Ryan and Jim. Are two of the people that do the, or is it one of

[00:21:18] Shaundai: is my manager. Ryan Burgess is my manager and he's amazing.

[00:21:23] Robbie: I was trying to do like some kind of crossover with them and apparently they record their episodes at like 11 Eastern time and I'm like, whoa,

[00:21:32] Shaundai: In the morning.

[00:21:34] Robbie: no, no at night Yeah, I was like, oh no, no

[00:21:37] Shaundai: No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

[00:21:40] Chuck: Yeah,

[00:21:41] Shaundai: They'll be flexible with you because, and this is one of the great things that I admire about, , Ryan as a manager, Jim as a manager as well, but just as a person, they're very accommodating. Ryan's Canadian. So like. Keep that in mind, like, everything that you, he's very nice, like, the good part of Canada, not Quebec, so, ooh,

[00:22:00] Chuck: Oh, ooh, there was a high take. Yes. Holy crap. Uh, you know, you're not totally wrong. I have been to Montreal, and when you don't respond back in French, they start stalking you. It's

[00:22:14] Shaundai: They don't like

[00:22:15] Chuck: gonna rob them. Yeah, they don't like you.

[00:22:17] Shaundai: oh

[00:22:17] Chuck: I don't know why.

[00:22:18] Shaundai: they're bad, they're

[00:22:19] Robbie: just have to play dumb, be like, I know French.

[00:22:22] Shaundai: Yeah.

[00:22:23] Chuck: mean, je m'appelle Charles. Yeah, you know, bonjour,

[00:22:27] Shaundai: Oh, ho, ho. Oui, oui.

[00:22:30] Chuck: Uh, fries,

[00:22:33] Shaundai: So, yeah.

[00:22:34] Chuck: toast.

[00:22:35] Shaundai: Ryan, on the other hand, like, when I talk to Ryan and he has like, you know, he gets really mad about something, he'd be like, sorry, not sorry. And I'm like, oh my goodness, you are so,

[00:22:47] Chuck: that's amazing. Yeah, see, there we go. We just need to get on

[00:22:51] Shaundai: Yeah, he's

[00:22:52] Chuck: and drink together or something. Yeah, we were at Render. I think, didn't...

[00:22:57] Shaundai: meet him? And

[00:22:58] Chuck: No, I didn't. I met Jim, right? Didn't

[00:23:02] Shaundai: Did I meet

[00:23:03] Chuck: don't know.

[00:23:04] Robbie: you

[00:23:04] Chuck: we met

[00:23:05] Robbie: Chuck, I was

[00:23:06] Chuck: I was all over the place. Uh, yes, Sean. Uh,

[00:23:09] Shaundai: I was, I was there with the, with Angie Jones and crew and we were drinking some Sagamore stuff. So yes, I think we were,

[00:23:19] Chuck: we met. Because you came in and, uh,

[00:23:21] Robbie: Yeah, people found we had

[00:23:23] Chuck: and then it went crazy

[00:23:24] Robbie: Ha ha ha ha

[00:23:26] Chuck: I was like, I know we met there. I didn't know you were from Atlanta, but I knew that we met at Render.

[00:23:31] Shaundai: I'll have to say he's very accommodating. So I, it doesn't have to be at 11 at night.

[00:23:36] Chuck: Yeah, it might happen. We'll see. As long as it's not at like, 9 in the morning or

[00:23:40] Robbie: well Chuck doesn't care, because he's West Coast time.

[00:23:44] Chuck: Well, yeah, exactly. I care about that, but like, I have had to do some very early morning drinking with folks overseas, and I want to accommodate, but it's also not awesome to drink at 9am, you know? You're like, I had a breakfast burrito, and now I'm drinking whiskey. It's just like, my whole day is off. I mean, I guess if you want to do work,

[00:24:02] Robbie: yeah. that's your problem.

[00:24:04] Chuck: sign up. Yeah. Otherwise, it's

[00:24:06] Shaundai: I was going to say, that's a great day.

[00:24:07] Robbie: Yeah,

[00:24:08] Chuck: just end it there and you're fine,

[00:24:10] Shaundai: you know, burritos and drinking and then you just take a nap.

[00:24:13] Chuck: mm

[00:24:14] Shaundai: And then you wake up at like 9 at night.

[00:24:16] Chuck: Yeah,

[00:24:17] Robbie: Ooh, I want burritos now.

[00:24:19] Chuck: And then put on some Netflix, hmm? Ba dum tsh. Here's my hot take, then, that's not on the list. Uh, milk or milk substitute?

[00:24:26] Shaundai: Milk. 100%. Like, as long as you're not lactose intolerant, like, go for the good stuff.

[00:24:33] Chuck: Yeah, yeah.

[00:24:34] Shaundai: yeah, I've been in this What is the generation after millennial? And then whatever generation that's like, everybody's mad at right now, I,

[00:24:45] Robbie: It's probably whatever you are, Chuck.

[00:24:48] Chuck: No, no, after. She said after, not before. I am Gen X. I'm old.

[00:24:53] Robbie: which, which way is after or before?

[00:24:56] Shaundai: younger one. So

[00:24:57] Chuck: younger ones. After would

[00:24:58] Robbie: Sorry, I misunderstood.

[00:24:59] Shaundai: and under, I think it's Gen Z. Yeah. Um, but they say, like, this, this is my era, and so I feel like I'm in my treat yourself era. And I'm very much about experiences and experiencing the full breadth of things, like, not, looking at the price tag anymore. And, , I acknowledge that this comes from a place of, you've got your career together and stuff like that. But not everybody's. , in the places that they want to be, but, , right now I'm in my whole milk era. I'm like, you know, I work out every morning. I pay my bills on time. My credit score is good. Like, let's go for the whole milk. And not only just the whole milk, like, let's go for the expensive milk. , let's go for the, the one that comes in the carton with, like, the gray print on it and the fancy font that really means nothing. It really means that it came from the same creamery that the other one is from, but they just, like, added a little bit to the label to make it seem more expensive. And I'm like, yeah, you know what? Let's enjoy it. Like, let's sip it. Let's, you know, like, let's rock out. Like,

[00:26:04] Chuck: You're, you're willing,

[00:26:06] Shaundai: Like,

[00:26:06] Chuck: you're like top shelf. Whatever it is, I want to try some top shelf. I think that's great. Yeah, whatever. You know, top shelf

[00:26:15] Robbie: They have it in a little lockbox.

[00:26:17] Chuck: Yeah, yeah. There is a creamery here in Arizona that actually does them, and it's like twice the price, and it's in a glass bottle, but I always feel like it's better. I don't know,

[00:26:27] Shaundai: gosh. That's something I haven't experienced yet. Like the milkman type milk, like the one that came in the ice box

[00:26:33] Chuck: mm hmm, yeah,

[00:26:35] Robbie: the glass is more expensive because you have a deposit on it. So you're supposed to take the bottle back. That's why it's more

[00:26:41] Chuck: exactly, that's why it's more expensive, yeah, because you get like three dollars off the next one, if you bring, if you just bring it back, and then it ends up being fine, if you remember to

[00:26:50] Shaundai: you get 3 off, like my milk is probably like 2. 96 or something like that. Like,

[00:26:55] Chuck: yeah, it's like eight dollars for a gallon of milk, it's ridiculous, but it's like getting milk in Hawaii or something, you know, which is like, yeah,

[00:27:03] Shaundai: prices are going down though because, um, and I was just thinking this this morning. So eggs. I eat a lot of eggs. I don't know if we're on topic or what,

[00:27:11] Robbie: Oh, we do

[00:27:12] Chuck: a little off. We're a little more into

[00:27:13] Shaundai: We're, we're gone

[00:27:15] Chuck: we're gonna give you a platform

[00:27:16] Shaundai: We'll get back.

[00:27:17] Robbie: Yeah.

[00:27:18] Shaundai: Alright, let's talk about these eggs first and then we can get back to the tech. I eat probably like six to nine eggs a day, which is weird, probably. But this is my truth. I eat a lot of eggs. And then, I'm just going to let you sit with that for a second. So I eat a lot of eggs and so I buy a lot of eggs and for a little while when we first hit this whole like crazy recession ish thing that we have in the U. S. right now. eggs were like 8 then they were going up to like 12 and I was like, well, I mean, I just have to make more money because there's no way I'm going to stop eating eggs. Like this

[00:27:53] Chuck: Right, right. There you go.

[00:27:54] Shaundai: know,

[00:27:55] Chuck: I like the mindset. Yeah.

[00:27:57] Shaundai: side hustles. I'm like yard sailing things. Like I got to figure this out. Like I got to get my life,

[00:28:04] Chuck: Maybe

[00:28:04] Shaundai: my life

[00:28:04] Chuck: chickens at that point. I don't know. Mm

[00:28:07] Shaundai: Right, but now it's back. Our main grocery store or like one of our upscale ish grocery stores is Publix out in Atlanta. I feel like it's upscale ish. It might not be, but um, it's at 4. 71. Yeah, Publix is amazing. It's at from down from 12 to 4. 71 for 30 eggs. I'm like, I stocked up this morning. I Instacarted. I can't even count the number of 30 egg

[00:28:33] Robbie: The maximum.

[00:28:34] Shaundai: that I got. Whatever I could get, I'm

[00:28:36] Chuck: it is the most efficient protein. I remember reading that, that it's like the one that your body uses the most of. So there's the least waste out of that. But also, I remember reading like, uh, earlier this year that like the egg industry had published record profits too. So it wasn't necessarily that like things became so expensive for them, but the tolerance for price increases was there. Everybody just accepted it across the board because everything was more expensive and they're like, let's get in on this

[00:29:03] Robbie: That's what

[00:29:04] Shaundai: I'm a victim. Yeah, I'm a, I'm a victim of that. Cause I was like, ah, 12. That's

[00:29:09] Chuck: Yeah, you still said yes, right, you know your vote was yes

[00:29:12] Shaundai: a chicken. I was gonna get a chicken and just like sit there and watch it.

[00:29:16] Chuck: I looked into that because I have two kids, , like four and almost seven. And I'd heard like, Oh, this is kind of like a cool thing to do. You can get, you know, some chickens and have them kind of participate in the feeding and all that kind of stuff. But, uh, I think the logistics are a bit of a nightmare. So we backed out of it. Also in the desert, it gets real hot. And we're like, am I going to air condition my chickens? I don't think I am. I can't do that. You know, the other nine months, they're all fine. But then like, what are they going to do at a hundred and, 10 or 12 or whatever it is today. It's like no

[00:29:47] Shaundai: Yeah,

[00:29:48] Robbie: So TypeScript.

[00:29:49] Shaundai: definitely,

[00:29:52] Chuck: Yes, yes

[00:29:53] Shaundai: transition, that was amazing,

[00:29:55] Chuck: not really good at those but anyway we have editors they'll

[00:29:58] Robbie: Yeah. It's all fine. We're very

[00:30:00] Chuck: I'm not I'm not Sade. I'm not a smooth operator. So

[00:30:04] Shaundai: what? I loved, leave that in please, that was

[00:30:08] Robbie: Oh yeah. We, we probably won't cut anything. I don't know. They'll cut

[00:30:12] Chuck: we don't usually. It's like a very, so the idea is that it's very casual and natural and whatever the hell we want it to be,

[00:30:19] Robbie: mm

[00:30:19] Shaundai: well,

[00:30:20] Chuck: Um, and I make a lot of like, uh, pop culture references that Robbie doesn't get, so I'm glad you got

[00:30:25] Robbie: I'm not old enough

[00:30:27] Shaundai: Oh,

[00:30:27] Chuck: cool enough. Yeah.

[00:30:29] Shaundai: be a baby. Are you a Gen Z er? Or something?

[00:30:33] Robbie: No, I'm I'll be 33 in November, so I'm not like super young or anything and just Chuck is old Chuck has a young face. You don't realize how old he is.

[00:30:47] Chuck: Hmm, yeah, that's just filters. You know, it's the lighting and filters.

[00:30:52] Shaundai: You did say you're from a different generation.

[00:30:54] Chuck: Yeah, I'm, I'm gonna be 46 in September. So, I am more than half dead. Yeah.

[00:31:04] Robbie: Oh

[00:31:04] Shaundai: though. Whatever essential oils you're using,

[00:31:07] Robbie: I look older than you I think sometimes

[00:31:10] Chuck: yeah, you can grow a better beard than me too. I, I still struggle. Like, I can do kind of a goatee, but like, here it's like patchy and weird. It's just not

[00:31:18] Robbie: get some neutrophil

[00:31:20] Chuck: I don't, it feels like so much more hassle. It's like, I can go days without shaving. Can you? I, I feel like you

[00:31:26] Robbie: No, yeah, I shaved three minutes ago, actually. No,

[00:31:29] Chuck: The beginning of this podcast he shaved and then here it is already. See, so this seems like just more problems. I'll, I'll just take less hair to deal with in my

[00:31:37] Robbie: yeah, that's fair.

[00:31:38] Chuck: I don't, you know. Anyway,

[00:31:40] Robbie: yeah. So, um, yeah, tell us something about your

[00:31:43] Chuck: you're working on a

[00:31:43] Robbie: Like, yeah, how did you decide to make a course? And, uh, you know, what, what kind of stuff is in there?

[00:31:49] Shaundai: That's a really good question. I hated until I learned what the purpose was. , I'm a self taught engineer. I am maybe two and a half years into my engineering career. I was, , a sales person, tech sales for a bit, consulting sales. Like I was, I sold the whole game. I sold nail polish for a bit. coding was going to be a hobby thing, , and I was doing it while I was on maternity leave. And, , I was like, I'll give myself half an hour a day to code and, you know, just play with it and stuff like that. I just needed a new hobby. without going into the whole details, I had a business, an online business and it was powered by Shopify. And what I found most interesting about it. I thought it was going to be the selling of the goods, but what I found most interesting was customizing the Shopify site. So learning Liquid, which is Shopify's Ruby based language, to, , build these like custom plugins and things, and to make the widgets that were already there work in the way that I wanted them to. And so I'd stay up until like four in the morning after, spending time with my newborn. And just, you know, playing with the code. All that to say, I ended up taking, , Codecademy as my coursework, which is a self paced, if you're not familiar, is a self paced, , online learning. where you can just learn like, okay, I want to learn HTML and you can take their HTML course, or you can say, I want to take a path, a web development path, and then it will take you through HTML, CSS, JavaScript. So JavaScript was the first language that I learned. It just fit my personality because it's very YOLO. Like, it's, and if you're not familiar with the term YOLO, you only live once, you just go for it. Like, you do the thing, you don't worry about what the variables are gonna end up being, you don't worry about, like, what the

[00:33:35] Chuck: You're gonna love

[00:33:36] Shaundai: up outputting.

[00:33:37] Robbie: Yeah,

[00:33:37] Shaundai: Oh yeah. I gotta

[00:33:39] Robbie: oh yeah, it's even more YOLO, yeah,

[00:33:42] Chuck: Mm-hmm.

[00:33:44] Shaundai: I love that. But I was like, okay, it works right now. Good enough. And I'll just, you know, code and, and that works. I'm only building projects for myself or, you know, I might be trying to get a discount at my son's daycare. So I'm going to build them a website and I'll present that to them if it works, as long as I present it to them. Who cares if it doesn't work later? Who cares if stuff crashes later? You know, like nobody has to worry about that. was in love with JavaScript because it just fit my personal values of like. I'm not giving a fuck. And then, um,

[00:34:13] Chuck: That's a great value. I love that. I'd love to see that on your personal website and not just a puppy picture, I'm

[00:34:19] Shaundai: I need to get one of those like neon things that just like, I hang up. Fast forward to when I was like, I had the epiphany that, Oh, I can actually make money as an engineer as much as I was making in sales. So maybe I'll try and make this a career because it's something that I love and I can make money. I started my first job, which was the last company that I was at, this company called Sales Loft. one of the folks who ends up being like my mentor and like one of my good friends, , he's a staff engineer at the company right now. We were using, Angular 1 at the time. And this is... 20 2021? Or 2020? We're using Angular 1 and trying to migrate that to React and, , he's like, you know what? In addition to this, let's also migrate to TypeScript. And I'm like, first of all, why do we got to do all this stuff? But second of all, why TypeScript? And so he ran a course for us. It was just like a two part series for an hour each. of TypeScript, just showing us the basic stuff, like, you know, you already understand that these are JavaScript types, this is a string, this is a number, all of this stuff you already get, but, let's explicitly declare it, or, you know, let's say that this is what the function is going to output. Just the way that my mind works is like, why do we have to do that? He is great at explaining the the why of things and once it clicked with me it clicked with me and I was like Okay, this makes our code More maintainable. So when people like me, it's, I'm still a new engineer. , when people like me are onboarding or when I'm trying to learn about the code base, I'm trying to onboard to this new code base, I need to be able to understand this is what the last engineer meant when they wrote this code. Or this is if I'm like refactoring, this is what this code is supposed to do versus like me having to do all of these console logs to get to the point, right? Also, it makes it scalable so as we're trying to like One, keep our own job security, but then hire on more engineers. This is making our, our code so much more stable. And, , what's the word? I just call it Teflon. Like it's, it's, it's like sturdy code where other people can come on board. And instantly, like I said, understand what we meant to do. And they can introduce new code to the platform. That is as error free as possible, it helps to reduce a lot of those, runtime errors. I start to get really excited about it, and, , I feel like a lot of people are in the same spot that I am is that, my initial thought with TypeScript is that, okay, you're putting a lot of rules in place and you're giving me these red squigglies and telling me that I can't YOLO my code anymore. I can't just like write things as I want to anymore. Now there's rules, which is like, okay, are we lawyers? Are we doctors? Like, why do we have rules all of a sudden, right? so that kind of was annoying, but when you actually understand the, reasons behind it, it kind of makes it more meaningful for you, and you're like, okay, now I have a purpose in, in doing this code, or now I have a purpose for refactoring it so that TypeScript is a part of my code, my thought was that a lot of engineers are in this camp where they feel like TypeScript is annoying as hell, but they just don't understand the reasons why There's the benefit of changing your code from JS to Ts. And if they did get that, , and they did understand that these are the reasons why these big companies are moving from just vanilla JavaScript to TypeScript, then it would make that transition a little bit easier and it would make that pill easier to swallow. Like, yes, it's painful to learn something new or yes, it's painful to refactor your huge code base to TypeScript. But these are all the benefits. This is why it's meaningful. So I want to approach it from the perspective of somebody who one, you know came in with this YOLO mantra two, , saw the light and is very pro TypeScript now, but also somebody who is still new to the engineering space and trying to learn But also lift as I climb as I'm having these same realizations I want other people to realize like okay This is what it's gonna take for me to get this job at this company or this is why it's important This is why the work that I'm doing is meaningful This is why, you know, I'm, like, whatever stress, blood, sweat, and tears you put into this sprint to refactor TypeScript, this is the impact that you're gonna have on the future engineers and, you know, the next class of people that, that come in. And also, when I'm teaching, I'm learning the best. Like, that is the way that I learn the best, is when, , I take this on as something that I'm teaching. So. For selfish reasons, I also wanted to get such a deep knowledge of TypeScript that I could explain it to a newbie and make it make sense to them. I feel like I'm helping myself as well as helping other people who are in that same position. But then explaining it from my own way. I have this way of explaining things through analogies, the technical part comes second. over a decade of my career was a career that's based on soft skills like sales is all about how you communicate, , your body language and the way that you negotiate and the way that, , you're listening to people and the way that they interpret things from you and just making sure that you're conveying your message in the way that it can be best received by the individual that's in front of you. Right? I'm great at the, the communication part of it, what's second to me is the, the technical part of it, and so I'm like, I have this unique, opportunity to teach people from a very unique perspective, something that's so important, as well as like, learn it myself, learn it more deeply, so,

[00:40:03] Chuck: that's a, that's a nice way to like deep dive on your own and benefit personally and then share that benefit with others. might I suggest a renaming of your course?

[00:40:14] Shaundai: Yeah, go for it. What

[00:40:15] Chuck: T. S. for YOLO. T. S. for YOLO. Still short, still kind of has a like, yeah?

[00:40:23] Shaundai: I love it so

[00:40:24] Chuck: I kind of like feel like it applies and is also a little more on brand. So, I don't know. You know, do what you will with that, I

[00:40:32] Shaundai: You know what? I think tonight I'm gonna at least buy the website and make sure that it redirects to the appropriate place because, um, yes.

[00:40:41] Robbie: do some A B testing with the SEO see what

[00:40:44] Chuck: Yeah. see? Right, yeah. Yeah, remove kind of a generic out of that and then still, yeah. still keep it short. I like it. Just two more letters, so, why not?

[00:40:54] Shaundai: A lot has come out of this conversation and I appreciate that.

[00:40:58] Chuck: So, I saw, I think in one of the articles or something, it might be your dev2 profile or something, you were, , digging into Rails and Go. Are you still doing that?

[00:41:06] Is Shaundai still digging into rails and go?

[00:41:06] Shaundai: Yeah, um, no. So, yeah,

[00:41:10] Chuck: Yes, but no.

[00:41:11] Shaundai: answer.

[00:41:11] Chuck: at all.

[00:41:13] Shaundai: That was a weird answer. No, um, I'm not. And you know what the truth is? I actually need to change that because I do remember where it came from. That's where the yes was. Yes, I remember that, that I put that. No, I'm not still digging into it. I had in my mind when I wrote that that I wanted to work at Netflix and the, as you know, the reason that I wanted to work at Netflix is because of my current manager. I was like, he'd be an awesome person to work for. My thought was that, , the team was using go at Netflix. I don't know where I got that from, but we're not, we're using Java and Kotlin. So that's going to be next on my, on my list to learn. Yeah. Rails was because that was the backend language at my last company. Yeah, I've been at Netflix for almost two years now. So I think it's about time that I, that I changed that.

[00:41:59] Chuck: I would say this, the, your old company was using Rails and Angular 1. So you essentially started your career in about 2010. Alright. Uh, give or take, you know. And, and you've got a lot more

[00:42:13] Robbie: I Think that was more like 2012

[00:42:17] Chuck: Well, I don't know, maybe. Rails is sooner. I remember hearing about Rails in like the, I don't know, 2007 or 8 or something. It

[00:42:24] Robbie: came out in like 2011 or 12.

[00:42:26] Chuck: Yeah, but I remember Angular 1 when I was at National Geographic, and that was like 11 or 12, and then we eventually tried to refactor that out. Anyway, so, yeah, you've got, you've got a while

[00:42:38] Shaundai: You see? It's disgusting. Yeah, it was, um, yeah, it's, it's bad. But yeah, this was, I started in, okay, so no, it was 2020 was when I made that switch. It was November of 2020. So late 2020. And they were still going strong with Rails and just starting with the Angular 1 migration

[00:43:00] Robbie: use Rails. No shame.

[00:43:03] Shaundai: Oh, you do?

[00:43:03] Chuck: Who's we? I don't use Rails,

[00:43:05] Shaundai: not dead.

[00:43:06] Robbie: Yeah, it's not

[00:43:07] Chuck: Oh, right, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, here's the thing. I mean, Basecamp is based on it, DHH and all that has a very nice view from his desk because of it. Like, you know, if it ain't broke, don't try and fix it kind of thing. You know, you don't always have to follow the hotness. I mean, I get that. I don't know why someone would start a new project in it today, but I don't know, maybe.

[00:43:29] Robbie: If you're used to it, like it depends on if you want the hotness and the performance or if you just want something you can build really fast in.

[00:43:36] Chuck: And you can YOLO and some PHP and then you get Laravel and people like that, apparently. I don't know. I, I just had a lot of WordPress nightmares.

[00:43:44] Robbie: apparently. That's what I see on Twitter.

[00:43:47] Chuck: Yep. I had a lot of nightmares with WordPress and PHP early in my career, so I just am like, I'm not doing that ever again. Um,

[00:43:56] Shaundai: were to start a company that is like... Like a, a fang company, whatever acronym or whatever letter you want to use, let's call it, you know, Robbie company. Um, so

[00:44:07] Chuck: Why's it gotta be Robbie? Why can't it be Chuck Company?

[00:44:10] Shaundai: company, the Chuck company. So, what backend language would your team be using?

[00:44:19] Chuck: yeah. Good question. I like when someone turns it back on

[00:44:21] Robbie: we, we don't do enough or I don't do enough backend to answer that. Well, like I would use JavaScript across the board because it's easy for me. So I would do node or whatever framework in node, but I think like probably Rust

[00:44:35] Chuck: or, serverless, yeah.

[00:44:38] Robbie: like more real backend

[00:44:41] Chuck: I would want, yeah, I would want to know what the company is attempting to doing. And I would probably keep it simple at first and expand. Like I remember coming across this company that was doing like all this crazy stuff. And honestly, they could have just as easily have done it with a Next. js app using API routes, essentially serverless with an ORM talking to your database. And then think about scaling that out later when you have users, right? Like

[00:45:05] Robbie: no. no. Gotta do it

[00:45:06] Chuck: see if people like it. Right. You can over engineer a lot of shit. And so you start with whatever works quickly for you. So I think us, yeah, I mean, I could do a next app really quick and, and then use API routes for crud stuff. And then if I started to have like operationally difficult things, I might move into like serverless functions and have a layer there and then start building it out as, as my needs grew, I wouldn't invest in infrastructure upfront.

[00:45:35] Robbie: No kubernetes day one.

[00:45:37] Chuck: Now, even though I like it, I do like it, because it's hard, and it's a lot of yaml,

[00:45:42] Robbie: Yeah, that's, that's why

[00:45:43] Chuck: that also works for

[00:45:45] Robbie: cool doing it, yeah.

[00:45:46] Chuck: Well, because, yeah, complexity creates, , career longevity, right? Like, if it's really hard, people can base their whole careers on that stuff. And, you know, at the end of the day, companies that really need that, you know, are just way bigger, doing a lot more stuff. Yeah, if you're doing like Kubernetes clusters of just containers, I mean, I like containers because there's consistency across machines, so that's kind of nice works on my laptop goes away when you use containerization, but outside of that, I don't know that you need orchestration. Early on. I was like, I love that somebody asked us a question finally. Nobody really cares what we think and that's validated most of the time. Here's the thing. people work at Netflix. I always want to know what is your favorite Netflix show?

[00:46:29] Shaundai: Yes, okay. You asked some good questions. So why am I so excited? There is a show

[00:46:35] Chuck: know, but

[00:46:36] Shaundai: First of all, Black Mirror. Okay. There's a new season that just came out and I'll explain Black Mirror for Okay, you haven't seen it. I'm not gonna

[00:46:45] Chuck: I, I showed my wife the first episode of the first season, and she was like, Fuck no.

[00:46:50] Shaundai: Of course,

[00:46:51] Chuck: Right? And that's what everybody who has seen it has said. And so, trying to get her back in

[00:46:56] Robbie: Started

[00:46:56] Chuck: Season one, episode one?

[00:46:58] Robbie: Started season three. Cause like the Netflix app started me at season three on accident. And I got hooked there

[00:47:03] Chuck: You know how many Housewives I'm gonna have to watch in order to get her back on board? I hope it's worth it.

[00:47:08] Robbie: anyway,

[00:47:09] Shaundai: does it say about me that I saw that episode the first one and I was like, I'm gonna watch another one then.

[00:47:14] Chuck: I mean, I was fine with it, but she was just like, No.

[00:47:17] Shaundai: Cause it was, it was something else. Like it's, it's a tough pill to swallow. if you're listening or watching and you haven't seen Black Mirror, don't start with season one, episode one, especially if you have Like a big moral compass like if you're like on Twitter and just responding to tweets I have nothing to do with you talking about, you know, oh, this is wrong Don't do that. So start with like Yeah, like you said, Season 3, Episode 3, right, Robbie? That's fine. Or Season 3,

[00:47:47] Robbie: think it was like the star Trekkie one or whatever with that guy. You know what I'm talking about? Yeah.

[00:47:52] Shaundai: Yep. So, the um, basic premise of the show, every episode is its own little movie. They're 45 minutes ish to like an hour and 10 minutes ish long. And they're all kind of like... What if situations like what if this crazy thing happened and how would that play out I'm trying to give an example what if we could record with our eyes? Like what if we had contact lenses or some like thing that was in our brain? That we could have installed that would record all of our day What are the different ways that that could go wrong and then there's a drama that's associated with that and it just like plays out In in different scenarios. So like I said each episode is its own little movie so you don't have to start from Season one, episode one, everything is, , just a different experience. The new season it's pretty good. I really liked the older seasons as well. , I'm trying to think what was my favorite one of the ones that I've seen. This wasn't my favorite season. But it is a really good show. And that's one of my favorites. Stranger things, of course, like phenomenal. , there's this new show. I've really been into personal finance over the past couple of years. And there's this new show that, , one of my best friends put me on, which is called how to be rich. I think by

[00:49:12] Chuck: it the Ramit. Sethi? Yeah. Uh, so I've read his book. Yeah.

[00:49:16] Talking about a netflix show with great financial advice

[00:49:16] Shaundai: Okay. I bought the book. I haven't started it yet. , I have a really good book recommendation by the way. , so we'll put a pin in that. I'm not really big on reality shows and this seems kind of reality show ish, but if you're into personal finance, he has really, really great meaningful tips. You don't have to, obviously, as with any advice, take it with a grain of salt. Take it as it applies to your life. Okay. Same with tech tips, finance tips, relationship tips. Please just take whatever applies to you and you don't have to tweet about anything else like you don't have to argue about anything else This is it's fine. Like

[00:49:52] Chuck: You don't have to be

[00:49:53] Shaundai: is gonna

[00:49:53] Chuck: do something. Yeah. Keep it

[00:49:54] Shaundai: Not everything has to be for you Doesn't have to be for you, but , he has really great tips on how to make sure that your financial situation is what you want it to be. And I had some really great realizations as I was watching his show and me and my, my good friend are talking about, how to save and how to, , make sure that our lives are set up so that our kids, grandkids, grandkids have a life set up for them, right? This is the type of mission that we're on. But Ramit talks about how to live your life today in the way that you want to. What is your definition of rich? Not necessarily how much money you have right now, but , how you want to spend that money. Like what's important to you? And I realized like, Oh, you know what? Maybe saving isn't as important. I'm saving a lot of money. Like I'm saving. Probably... 80 to 85% of my income is just savings. Yeah.

[00:50:50] Robbie: to buy more eggs.

[00:50:50] Shaundai: You know?

[00:50:52] Chuck: Yeah,

[00:50:53] Talking about what a "rich" life really is

[00:50:53] Shaundai: And I'm like, this is great because like, I have a hefty savings account, but, , like when it comes to doing the things that I actually want to do, I hesitate, like I'd love to travel and I haven't taken a trip with my son since before the pandemic. I was just thinking like, why not? Like, what's the point of having this big savings account? What if I die tomorrow? or what if I live to 85, but I don't have these memories of traveling with my son, , doing the things that I love with the person that I love the most in this world, what did I really achieve by saving all that? All that money. So it just started me thinking of like, what is my definition of rich? And to me, it's like, if, if I can spend time with the people that I love in the ways that I want to, then this is the most beautiful life that I can imagine for myself. Let my son figure out what he's going to do for a job. If he's going to figure out working for Chick fil A or whatever, he's got enough savings that like, I've saved for him and all that stuff, but like, he'll figure out his own life. Like he's not,

[00:51:51] Chuck: Yeah, it's not an unreasonable reality if like someone becomes a garbage man. I don't know what... It's because somebody has to do it. It's not a terrible job. It

[00:52:00] Robbie: If you love it, like that's half the battle.

[00:52:03] Chuck: If you're happy, if it's providing you something, like, yeah, I, living a rich life, right? And he would grow up and have these experiences with you and remember that. And that would also be valuable to him. Even if he can't replicate it himself. Like, there's something to be said about that, right? We always want better for our children, but it's not always realistic. And you can't, regardless, you could save all your money and send him to Harvard and it doesn't work out. You know, right? You can't guarantee anything.

[00:52:29] Robbie: can invest

[00:52:30] Chuck: a good human and see what

[00:52:31] Robbie: and be broke.

[00:52:33] Chuck: Exactly, because this happens

[00:52:34] Shaundai: I actually, , I went out drinking with the son of the founder of comcast. And... He, I feel like, was a black sheep, and he was a character, and I was like, you're gonna lose all your money, man. Because he was like, one of those people that, , you just know he's gonna end up in a headline that's like, really... It's sad. And, he was a fun time, but I'm like, , you have all the opportunities in the world. You come from a very, very rich family, you're just messing it all up, and His brother his older brother was like one of those like, oh, I have to do everything to impress dad And you know all that and I'm like your life isn't actually what I want to live either because he's not living his own life he's living the life that he thinks his dad wants I guess for me my rich life is making sure that I'm just as happy as I want to be. And then my son has the flexibility to like, never want to, Oh, I need to impress mom and I need to forego all the things that are interesting and important to me. But also like, I'm not this big fuck up. And, , it's just like a whole person. that's all that I care about. And, this show in general has just made me think of things in a much different way than I've ever thought of things. So would highly recommend that how to get rich. By

[00:53:52] Chuck: Yeah. Nice. Yeah. I like his content. I saw him speak once years ago, read his book. He was in the circle of, like, Tim Ferriss influencers back in the day, so that's how I came across him. And he's obviously been able to build, like, all these products and everything else. But I love the ideology of not just, he's trying to, like, remove money. As a stressor, which doesn't work 100% for me, but it helps me make decisions sometimes, too, though, like do I care more about saving money on this or do I care more about missing this experience, right? I don't want to look back and have regrets and say, you know, for me, it was like I lived in Europe for like seven months or whatever, and You know, I had a fixed savings and all that stuff going on, and then it was like, I'm really into soccer, so I want to see these games, and you know, the tickets aren't cheap, and I would just think like, can I really see a third game? And then I thought about like, if that's just a line on a credit card bill that later on I got to deal with, am I going to regret that, or am I going to regret saying no? And that's usually like my decision tree there, because when am I coming back to do this thing at this time? Um, you don't know.

[00:54:59] Shaundai: That's what we say. Hashtag bars. Bars. These are, you're spitting right now.

[00:55:04] Chuck: Uh, yeah, I mean,

[00:55:06] Shaundai: means? Like, yeah.

[00:55:07] Talking about music

[00:55:07] Chuck: kind of, yeah, I have a playlist, so I'm actually really into hip hop. I'm into music in general, but you know, growing up in the 80s and 90s, there's a lot of hip hop and punk rock and like a mix of things for me. I

[00:55:18] Robbie: back when music was good.

[00:55:20] Chuck: Yeah, right, exactly. I know, I know that Wu Tang Clan ain't nothing to fuck with. That's

[00:55:25] Shaundai: Hey, let's

[00:55:27] Chuck: I watched that on Hulu, by the way. It was amazing. I don't know if you watched that, the dramatization. I know RZA had his own thing on like Prime or something like that, but the, the drama one on, on Hulu is so good. If you like them, like, you know, I had like dead Kennedy's cassette tapes and the fat boys, you know, that kind of stuff. So it was a weird, weird mix in Cincinnati. Like, so I grew up in Northern Kentucky, which is like essentially across the river from Cincinnati. And so we had like a very urban, Mix plus Kentucky Southern sensibility. I don't know. This is strange. This is what it makes I guess. Yeah

[00:56:02] Shaundai: is such a great conversation because I'm, I feel like I'm, I'm learning a lot of things. Like I would have never thought Kentucky, like I would have thought bluegrass and you know every, so all I know about country music is like bluegrass is part of that I think, but I'm like Shania Twain and that's all I know.

[00:56:22] Chuck: Right. Well, that's pop country, right? So yeah, it's funny thing. I

[00:56:26] Robbie: Isn't it all pop country?

[00:56:28] Chuck: No, not at all. Like Hank Williams, senior. Did you know that, um, Jerry Garcia was a bluegrass, , musician before he joined, , the Grateful Dead. And he was really, he's amazing at, , banjo, which is a difficult

[00:56:41] Robbie: appreciate a banjo. I think it

[00:56:43] Chuck: And I love when, banjo was weaved into like rock songs and like all, you know, more like. Alternative, like that kind of juxtaposition is like amazing. And therein I end up having a bunch of respect for, for bluegrass music. Yeah, which is like oftentimes thought of like you're wearing overalls and you're barefoot and all that. But, and I'm, and I'm sure there's plenty of that. Yeah. Um, that's for, so Robbie's making a joke because I have overalls. I like them and I put them on sometimes when I'm like doing work in the yard when it's not summer. And my daughter. Here's now four. She's like I I don't know last year or whatever. I put them on and I'm going out and she's like daddy Daddy, no, no, no, that's for farm because she has this like little farm play school set and the farmer guy has overalls on and so She says that's for mine She actually said that to me this morning because she has this like overall denim dress and I was like Do you want to wear this? Because she's going to her camp and she said no daddy. That's for farm And the only time she's worn it, we went to like a pumpkin farm or something, I don't know. So,

[00:57:48] Robbie: she knows what she's talking about.

[00:57:49] Chuck: Yeah, she is, she's a lot smarter than I am, so.

[00:57:52] Shaundai: That's

[00:57:53] Chuck: Yeah, anyway, that's her farm. Thanks for bringing that up.

[00:57:57] Robbie: Yeah. You're welcome. All right. Uh, we are over time here. Uh, is there anything that you want to plug or anything we miss before we end?

[00:58:04] Shaundai: Yeah, I'll replug, , my course. For now it's TS4JS. com, T S F O R J S. com. If you go there, subscribe to the updates, you'll get freebies, you will get updates about the progress of the course, , you'll get information as soon as that course is released. If you want to follow me on any social media, The benefit of having a unique name, like Shonday, is that you can find me on any handle, or any social media platform, as just at Shonday. So, my website, shonday. com, my Instagram, Twitter, Blue Sky, what are

[00:58:42] Chuck: Oh, you got one of those? I am not cool enough to get invited

[00:58:45] Shaundai: If you guys need it, if you guys need it, I have two more, uh, passes, so if you guys need it,

[00:58:49] Chuck: Hook,

[00:58:50] Robbie: Blue sky's dead. Threads is the

[00:58:52] Shaundai: It's, it is done. Threads. That's the other one.

[00:58:54] Chuck: Okay. See, I just keep waiting them all out. I'm sorry, I interrupted you.

[00:58:59] Shaundai: I think Threads is it, but everybody says everything is it, so we'll see where it goes. But, yeah, you can find me at Shondae, S H A U N D A I. What else do I want to plug? Um... That is it. Shandai. Not Shandai. It's Shan Shandei. So I say like a day

[00:59:17] Chuck: would be really... Yes, I heard you say that. If you moved to Japan, it would be really difficult, I think.

[00:59:23] Shaundai: I had somebody write my name in Japanese and that's all I know to the story. It was it's something that has nothing to do with like she's she wrote out two words that sound like Shan and day and they have nothing to do with the name Shan or the word day. But they just sound like that. yeah. And that's all there is to the story. But she wrote it out in phonetic Japanese.

[00:59:51] Chuck: Nice.

[00:59:51] Shaundai: wish I, yeah, I wish I didn't even start that story because that was such a boring story. Yeah.

[01:00:00] Robbie: all.

[01:00:01] Shaundai: It's like, it's like a day of the week. Saturday, Sunday, Shonday. That's my name. So, yeah, I appreciate you having me on.

[01:00:09] Chuck: Yeah. Thanks for coming

[01:00:10] Shaundai: I appreciate your patience with the toddler screams in the background

[01:00:13] Robbie: yeah. No problem. We have kids. We know. Cool. All right. Thanks everybody for listening. If you liked it, please subscribe. Leave us some ratings and reviews. We appreciate it. And we will catch you next time. ​