194: Static, Dynamic, Generative: What’s Next for the Web? w/ Guillermo Rauch

[00:00:00] Intro: Welcome to Syntax. Welcome to a brand new episode of the Front End Happy Hour podcast. Welcome to this week’s JS Party. Live from Ship Shape Studios, this is Whiskey Web and Whatnot. With your hosts, Robbie the Wagner, and me, Charles William Carpenter III. That’s right Charles. We drink whiskey and talk about web development.

[00:00:27] Intro: I mean, it’s all in the name. It’s not that deep. This is Whiskey Web and Whatnot. Do not adjust your set.

[00:00:36] Chuck Carpenter: Alright. Welcome everybody to another episode of React Rum. Rum react and ramblings. I did it again. That’s okay. Anyway, it’s even better. Yeah. You know, it’s not live stream.

[00:00:48] Chuck Carpenter: I could always rerecord it later. , anyway, I’m your host, Charles William Carpenter ii here with my special guest co-host Aaron Francis. I am standing in as

[00:00:57] Aaron Francis: special guest, co-host and happy to be here. Well, that’s

[00:00:59] Chuck Carpenter: [00:01:00] guest co-host.

[00:01:00] Aaron Francis: It’s in the name. I know. Okay.

[00:01:03] Chuck Carpenter: , and I’m here with my guest. Uh, hold on.

[00:01:05] Chuck Carpenter: Where’s your badge? Uh, Guillermo Ro. Is that right? Yeah. New new guy. We just met him. Yeah. Which is right into him. Yeah. Jump on the podcast and, and hang out with us. Uh,

[00:01:15] Chuck Carpenter: so Guillermo or G as you may like to be called, for those who don’t know who you are and what you do, mind introducing yourself.

[00:01:22] Guillermo Rauch: I’m Guillermo Rouch.

[00:01:23] Guillermo Rauch: I started Versal, formerly known as Zeit. Yes. Many, many years ago. I started the next JS project and many moons ago I started, uh, open source project called Socket io and Mongos. So I’ve been around the JavaScript block for a while and I’m really happy to be here at React Miami for the first time.

[00:01:43] Guillermo-Rauch_AP: Yeah.

[00:01:44] Guillermo Rauch: Thanks

[00:01:44] Chuck Carpenter: for joining us there. Thanks for fixing my pronunciation. You did kind of snipe my, I was gonna make the Zeit reference because I have been a user since back in the Zeit days. Thank you. I would now my stuff. To

[00:01:56] Guillermo Rauch: the internet. It was magic. We should give people a badge if they log [00:02:00] in as an account that was creating during the zy days.

[00:02:03] Guillermo Rauch: That would be pretty cool though. That’d be very cool. Yeah. All right. I’ll click on it. I think,

[00:02:07] Aaron Francis: honestly, and I’m gonna betray myself, I’ve never used React in my life, but I think I would get that badge really, because I, back in the day, I think I deployed with Zeit.

[00:02:15] Chuck Carpenter: Cool. Yeah. I signed up for everything back in the day.

[00:02:17] Chuck Carpenter: ‘cause I used, I just wanted to get my usernames everywhere.

[00:02:20] Guillermo Rauch: It’s very important.

[00:02:21] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. It kind of matters. Like I want to be Chuck Carpenter on the internet everywhere. If

[00:02:25] Guillermo Rauch: I’m not Rouch G on the internet, on everything, I freak out. Yeah. So we need an agent, an AI agent that goes out into the wild, into the internet.

[00:02:33] Guillermo Rauch: Mm-hmm. And just si up for everything. Just to squat. Just squats on domains using and the handles. Yeah. It’s perfect. It’s not a bad idea. I love it. It’s a

[00:02:41] Chuck Carpenter: good career option for you. You should like think about trying this, the whole for self thing doesn’t work out. You got a good plan B, you can make gates of dollars doing this.

[00:02:50] Chuck Carpenter: I’m ideas guy. Okay. I mean, frankly. Yeah. Yeah. No, I get that. I get that vibe from you.

[00:02:54] Chuck Carpenter: Alright, so we start this show typically with whiskey, but special for [00:03:00] this one. We’re doing rum and today’s rum for this. Yeah. I’m not sure if you’re familiar with it. Florida, Kanye, Florida, Kanye. , this is the 18-year-old expression.

[00:03:09] Chuck Carpenter: I don’t know what’s on about rums, but I do know that aged rums. Are a little bit tastier than your like normal mix it with Coke, kind of anything that’s aged. Sounds amazing, right? Mm-hmm. Right. I agree. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:03:20] Guillermo Rauch: Except for software. There’s this quote of software ages, like milk, not wine. Yeah. Have you heard it accurate?

[00:03:28] Guillermo Rauch: It’s the best. Yeah. The latest. So other than software, we want everything to be aged. I agree. What about your podcast host? Do you like them? Age? ‘cause

[00:03:35] Chuck Carpenter: I’m not getting any younger. I love them.

[00:03:37] Guillermo Rauch: Experienced in, in the arena for many, many years. You ask

[00:03:40] Chuck Carpenter: amazing questions. Oh boy. Well, I’m about to underwhelm me, so hold on.

[00:03:45] Chuck Carpenter: Here I am now. Pouring said rum. , I would guess I know this is a pretty decent brand. It is. From

[00:03:55] Guillermo Rauch: here we go. Thank you sir. Yes, thank you. Jumping on that fairly kind, I mean, [00:04:00] sounds Yeah. Cuban, possibly Nicaragua. Oh, okay. Yeah. Product

[00:04:04] Chuck Carpenter: of Nicaragua. I,

[00:04:06] Guillermo Rauch: Product of Nicaragua flo de kenya.com. Yes. We should look up how that’s built. Mm-hmm. Yes. Are they using x js? Yeah. If not, I just spit this. Mm-hmm. This

[00:04:18] Chuck Carpenter: out. Yeah. it’s the barrier to entry as they, even your spirits marketing site must be built in next

[00:04:24] Guillermo Rauch: gs. Yes. In fact, one of our big clients is Diageo.

[00:04:27] Guillermo Rauch: Oh yeah. I know. They own a lot of, uh, alcohol brands about all of them, half of them.

[00:04:31] Guillermo Rauch: It’s fun to, I mean, we’re joking obviously, but every single company in the world is going through digital transformation, right? Like, yeah, this company’s probably been around for decades and decades and decades. And now they have to start thinking about, well, like what’s all this direct to consumer thing?

[00:04:44] Guillermo Rauch: Are we gonna get this intermediated? Are we just gonna be this little icon or logo in the big shops like amazon.com? And how do we rethink and reinvent ourselves in digital age? And now people are thinking about that in the context of ai. And,

[00:04:58] Guillermo Rauch: know, I started my company thinking about. [00:05:00] Developer experience and just being a geek, solving my own problems.

[00:05:04] Guillermo Rauch: But it’s, it’s immensely rewarding that now we get to solve huge problems that could, uh, we could never anticipated mm-hmm. For every company in the world. I mean, that’s, that’s kind of the power of the web’s power to react. We just talked about it on the, we, the panel. No one knew how big these things were gonna get.

[00:05:19] Guillermo Rauch: at the same time, we’re only at like 1% of the web. Like if you even measure like how many websites and web applications are built with React, oh gosh, we’re all in the, you know, hype like cloud, Twitter, X World of, we take it for granted, but it’s still relatively minuscule in the grand scheme of things.

[00:05:39] Guillermo Rauch: And AI is making it seem even more minuscule, you know? Yeah. Only single digit million developers that know react. There’s hundreds of millions that know how to, you know, use Microsoft Excel mm-hmm. And things like that. So yeah. So

[00:05:53] Chuck Carpenter: the ubiquity that can kind of come over the next decades, it’s like there’s a lot of opportunity.

[00:05:57] Chuck Carpenter: That. Yep. And I think

[00:05:59] Aaron Francis: you’re right, it does [00:06:00] feel like on, Twitter x.com, everything else. Saturation. Yeah. Right. Market saturation. It feels saturated. Yeah. But yeah, when you look at the real stats and you’re like, wait, WordPress does what? We got a long way to go. We gotta keep going

[00:06:11] Guillermo Rauch: guys.

[00:06:12] Aaron Francis: Or are not online.

[00:06:13] Guillermo Rauch: Like that is true. By the way, Florida, Kanye is represented certain listening and like, I don’t mean to make any assumptions about their business, but like imagine how many big ideas they probably have about cool things they wanna do with software or the internet. And the limiting factor today is access to technology.

[00:06:29] Guillermo Rauch: Yeah. Access to developers recruiting the right people. Yeah. It’s exciting. Skill issue.

[00:06:34] Chuck Carpenter: Right. Alright, before we keep getting too serious, let’s remember the first part of this show, which is we’re gonna try this alcohol. And you may not be aware and for anyone who’s joining just on this episode, we have a highly technical rating system.

[00:06:49] Chuck Carpenter: It is from zero to eight tentacles, zero being . Terrible. Throw it out. Spit it out. Four being like middle of the road, you would have, again, you wouldn’t really seek it out. An eight is clear, the [00:07:00] shelves, because if I see it, I’m gonna buy it in every single one. Wow. Have you already rated an eight before ever?

[00:07:05] Chuck Carpenter: Yes. Not here. Not here, not today, or whatever else. Uh, not in the rum arena, actually, I don’t think I ever have. Could a

[00:07:12] Aaron Francis: rum

[00:07:12] Chuck Carpenter: even be at eight? Sure. That my within own realm.

[00:07:15] Aaron Francis: That was my question. I don’t think so. You don’t think

[00:07:18] Chuck Carpenter: so? Not for

[00:07:18] Aaron Francis: me personally.

[00:07:19] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah,

[00:07:19] Aaron Francis: not

[00:07:19] Chuck Carpenter: for me personally. That’s true. I don’t think I would.

[00:07:21] Chuck Carpenter: Clear it and say, I’m never drinking anything but rum. So that’s kind of tough. Yeah. So

[00:07:26] Guillermo Rauch: in Argentina, the most popular drink is Fernet Fett. Conka. Conka. That’s right. Oh, I know. I’ve had a that.

[00:07:32] Aaron Francis: Well, tell me ‘cause I’ve never heard of this. No, what is it? So

[00:07:35] Guillermo Rauch: Fett is a liquor from Italy. Mm-hmm. Argentina had a lot of Italian immigration, a lot of influence in the culture, the language.

[00:07:42] Guillermo Rauch: My great-grandfather is from Italy. And so it somehow became a thing, even though it’s like a pretty niche alcohol. It is.

[00:07:50] Chuck Carpenter: It’s an Amaro. Okay. And it’s a dark Amaro. Yeah. So it’s very herbal. Yeah. And then mixing it with Coke. Sounds insane. The combination with Coke, not diet Coke. No, [00:08:00] that’s actually terrible.

[00:08:00] Chuck Carpenter: And it has to be the right Coke too. Like our American coke won’t work. It just doesn’t taste right. It’s not as

[00:08:05] Guillermo Rauch: good. I’ll

[00:08:05] Chuck Carpenter: say,

[00:08:06] Guillermo Rauch: Mexican Coke is probably better. Yeah, it definitely. But I’ll tell you, the combination of those two things elevates Fernet. It takes it actually from a one, possibly, yeah.

[00:08:13] Guillermo Rauch: For me at least. Oh, okay. To an eight. Yeah. Whoa. Yeah. It’s

[00:08:17] Chuck Carpenter: in a choir. That’s a big swing. Yeah. I would say this. Aaron A we should try it tonight. I’ve had it, I used to go to Argentina Bunch. Nice. I worked for National Geographic. I have friends in Cordoba. Oh, wow. Which, so like Cordoba likes to say that they invented the drink

[00:08:31] Guillermo Rauch: and so everybody, there’s a huge dispute.

[00:08:33] Guillermo Rauch: Yeah. There’s probably a Wikipedia, you know, when this Wikipedia articles on like disputes Uhhuh. Yeah. The X versus Y, the tobacco. Of course. That’s like, who invented this? Yeah. And, and there’s a bunch in Argentina with Uruguay. Uruguay claims to have invented. Y Mate. I love Uruguay, but I mean, that’s insane.

[00:08:47] Guillermo Rauch: There’s no fucking way. they claim to have invented Tango to that Carlos Cardell or Tango guy. Yeah. Like Mar of Tango was born there. Ah. There’s a lot of myths out there, by the way.

[00:08:57] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. But if you wanna [00:09:00] tan, it’s this podcast. That’s nice. Yes. There. That’s another podcast. Spin off. Let’s just dig into

[00:09:05] Guillermo Rauch: truth.

[00:09:05] Guillermo Rauch: But anyway, so what I was gonna say is for Net Cola can go to an eight because of the cola. Yeah. So you like cola is what you’re saying? Yes. Yes. And we are, this is pure rum. Yeah. Pure rum. So it’s gonna be hard to get into

[00:09:20] Chuck Carpenter: an eight. Well, let’s try it. Let’s find sight. Here we go. Cheers. Yeah, there you go. I smell it first is just what I do.

[00:09:26] Chuck Carpenter: Hmm. It’s a little woody smelling. I’m gonna prime it. It is Woody. Yeah. I don’t know what they age it in. It’s usually used barrels, which is why you have to go up to like 15, 18, 20 years with rums. Wow. To kind of get some depth to it. It’s a little licorice in there. Am I crazy? I just don’t think I’m getting to an eight on rum.

[00:09:44] Chuck Carpenter: I

[00:09:44] Aaron Francis: just don’t think it’s, do I need, but I’m

[00:09:45] Guillermo Rauch: actually surprisingly not on the one realm. No. Okay. No, no, no. Yeah. ‘cause do you drink a lot of hard liquor? I’m above half for sure. I’m above, I’m above four. I’m in the second half. Yeah. I’m, I’m a, I’m in a four to eight.

[00:09:57] Aaron Francis: We’re narrowing.

[00:09:58] Guillermo Rauch: Okay.

[00:09:58] Chuck Carpenter: We’re narrowing. Okay. You [00:10:00] probably put this in my head, Uhhuh, but I have a slight like cola syrup flavor to it. I think you got little, little cola syrup. I’m gonna rule out eight. Okay. I’m gonna rule out seven. Mm-hmm. Okay. Fair, fair, fair. Sounds like you’re going first and I’m, I’m here for it.

[00:10:16] Chuck Carpenter: No, no, no. This is good. Keep going. This is a six. Okay. Okay. Okay. So you have some context, Aaron. ‘cause you had the last one and you know how you felt about it. Mm-hmm. So I think I’m

[00:10:28] Aaron Francis: gonna be so bold as to agree. I think this is a six.

[00:10:30] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, yeah, yeah. This was good. I gave the last one a six and a half.

[00:10:35] Guillermo Rauch: Oh, you’re going into the decimals?

[00:10:37] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. You can do it. We don’t care. I didn’t know that was the last It’s a allowed Sure. If you want to, yeah, if you wanna do floating point, you do floating point. Yeah. You can get all weird with it. It doesn’t matter. Six and a quarter stars totally fine. Uh, I feel like I like this one better. It’s got a little heat to it, but less actual like burn going down.

[00:10:52] Chuck Carpenter: There’s, it’s just a smoother, it’s a nice sipper.

[00:10:55] Guillermo Rauch: Respect.

[00:10:56] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. So I kind of feel like it was better that, I’m gonna say 6, 7, [00:11:00] 5 for me. 6.75. That’s high. Florida, Kenya, I won’t say it right. Look at Florida. Kenya, they’ve, they cooked. They have aged. I enjoying this. This is going well for them. Yeah, it is. Yeah.

[00:11:10] Chuck Carpenter: This is gonna be a massive marketing opportunity. Florida Kenya Run. They’re Florida. Kenya. Hundreds or just thousands of developers? Yes. Family Legacy.

[00:11:19] Guillermo Rauch: By the way, the mount behind it almost looks like Mount Fuji, which makes no sense. No, not at all. Vesuvius, maybe that

[00:11:26] Chuck Carpenter: looks like Vesuvius

[00:11:26] Guillermo Rauch: Somewhat.

[00:11:28] Chuck Carpenter: Carbon neutral certified.

[00:11:29] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. So they’re doing the right thing. I guess they’re doing the right things for the environment. Sure. Yeah.

[00:11:33] Aaron Francis: This is a, this is one big ad for Florida Canyon. Yeah.

[00:11:35] Chuck Carpenter: I want to talk about this whole, you get a special Zeit Zeit badge again, kind of That’s good content situation.

[00:11:41] Chuck Carpenter: Y’all should absolutely do that. I’m

[00:11:42] Guillermo Rauch: extremely grateful to the people that have been with us since the early days. Yeah. Because I mean, this is not to pat myself in the back because it came at a an incredible personal expense, but startups are almost impossible. Yeah. Startups in the infrastructure space, [00:12:00] even more so.

[00:12:01] Guillermo Rauch: Impossible squared. ‘cause you are solving basically a conundrum, which is infrastructure is a thing that is mission critical, has to be rock solid. It has to be trustworthy, it has to be secure, it has to be reliable. You have to be able to bet your life and the life of your children on this thing. Yeah, seriously.

[00:12:19] Guillermo Rauch: As the world as we were talking about, like becomes more digital first. You know, during Covid, I always tell this story to our, during colleagues that. Almost every single vaccine appointment emergency thing that had to be created was shipped on Versal. There was no time. Yeah. And the whole, that’s interesting.

[00:12:35] Guillermo Rauch: Healthcare industry had to become online overnight, not unlike e-commerce. People talk about this in, in the, in terms of e-commerce and how it, like, it grew like three years worth of growth in like a year, et cetera. Right. But also happen in healthcare. So to create a platform that can, earn the trust of so many people and that you can literally bank on.

[00:12:53] Guillermo Rauch: We also host a ton of financial services companies and crypto companies. So that could [00:13:00] not have happened without the brave, early adopters. Truly that bet on the promise of, okay, let’s make this thing a hundred times easier than it used to be, but it’s not gonna be perfect overnight. And so every time someone tells me , I was with you in the ze days, I think Thank you, because you had a huge part in building this.

[00:13:20] Guillermo Rauch: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:21] Guillermo Rauch: , and so that, that really deserves a special batch. We’re gonna make it happen. I think That’ss a fun,

[00:13:26] Aaron Francis: it’s a fun idea. And that would do very well. Yeah.

[00:13:28] Chuck Carpenter: On Twitter. That would be great. I think that makes a lot of sense. Sense too, in, in,

[00:13:32] Chuck Carpenter: the industry has had a lot of pressure to make people more of a generalist, and so you have less access to specialists who can Yeah.

[00:13:40] Chuck Carpenter: Create, CI pipelines Yeah. With Kubernetes and do all these crazy things in order to have observability and yada, yada yada. Yeah. Like a way for someone who’s a JavaScript developer to get their projects online and then have that positive experience and bring it back to their employers and be like, look, we can, we can actually just do [00:14:00] stuff.

[00:14:00] Guillermo Rauch: Yeah. And opening it up to as many people as possible. So in the early days, we used Kubernetes, which you just mentioned

[00:14:07] Guillermo Rauch: , as the actual control plane. And we discovered very quickly with our exponential growth that. A cluster can only get so big. Huh. And we started running into operational limits that Kubernetes themselves had never seen because no one had opened up an entire service with the wild west of the internet where everybody could deploy.

[00:14:26] Guillermo Rauch: Yeah. You know, the smallest unit of deployment was the cluster. So you might create a cluster just for yourself, your company, your friends, your, you know, labs at your company, research teams, et cetera. But no one created like the global cluster of the whole internet. Yeah. That everyone can sign up to and start deploying with one command, which by reducing the friction, you massively increase the number of deployments that get created.

[00:14:47] Guillermo Rauch: Yeah, sure. And then we had the idea of, well, what if every get commit got automatically deployed? What if we made it worse?

[00:14:54] Aaron Francis: What if we went, what if we pushed it even further? Yeah.

[00:14:57] Guillermo Rauch: So everything about like running everything hot. [00:15:00] I mean, that’s what startups are like. You run yourself freely hot, you run everything hot and Yeah.

[00:15:05] Guillermo Rauch: The computers especially, yeah.

[00:15:07] Aaron Francis: How long was the brutal personal phase? Like how many years was it just like waking up and eating

[00:15:14] Guillermo Rauch: glass? Every, every day is chewing glass. , but not the kind where the systems are melting. you know, every company at every scale, even AWS still has days where like, I don’t know, this region had a meltdown or this thing happened.

[00:15:31] Guillermo Rauch: So those are exceedingly rare these days. Mm-hmm. Which is amazing. ‘cause like I always tell the team, the worst thing that could happen is, uh, something security related. The next worst thing that could happen is something durability related. Mm-hmm. Like data loss. Mm-hmm. And the next worst thing that could happen is something availability related, which is like uptime.

[00:15:47] Guillermo Rauch: Mm-hmm. Yeah. So those things are exceedingly rare. But we don’t wanna downplay it as like the, the chewing glass happens because you’re setting up for like bigger and bigger and bigger challenges every single time. Bigger customers. [00:16:00] We just onboarded recently, I learned from our engineers.

[00:16:03] Guillermo Rauch: our top three most trafficked properties on versa, Brazil, are all new, meaning like out, like they came out of nowhere and they quickly rose to the very, very top of the platform. And one of them, I, I am not gonna name them, but they’re like a super hot AI company and every single time there’s like an exponential increase in like usage or traffic or launches and releases and all these things.

[00:16:28] Guillermo Rauch: So there’s always like an element of like fun and also like pressure that comes with it, with this job. you know, at this point, like when you’re an entrepreneur that’s been in this arena enough, you’re signing up for this Yeah. Early days, you’re more like surprised about like, ah, my friend Nat has this really funny tweet about like.

[00:16:47] Guillermo Rauch: We didn’t do this because it was easy. We did it because we thought it was gonna be easy, man. Yeah. So, so you’re you, the first few years are like that. You’re like, ah. So there’s that other aspect of this. Mm-hmm. Oh, and oh, and [00:17:00] this gets harder because of that. And, but now, like, I feel like there’s no more surprises.

[00:17:04] Guillermo Rauch: That’s good. In a way. So now it’s just

[00:17:06] Aaron Francis: operational. Yes.

[00:17:08] Guillermo Rauch: You know, things

[00:17:09] Aaron Francis: are gonna be hard, but you can pull them off.

[00:17:10] Guillermo Rauch: That’s right. No more

[00:17:11] Aaron Francis: like

[00:17:11] Guillermo Rauch: That’s right. What the hell are we even gonna make it days? That’s right. That’s right. And the other pressure that comes with startups that are at our scale is

[00:17:19] Guillermo Rauch: every successful startup in many ways is a one-trick pony.

[00:17:23] Guillermo Rauch: That’s great. Like, you wanna be focused. You wanna be like one thing. the problem with that is that as you get bigger, the world wants more out of you, which is actually really fun. So the classic thing that happened with Vercel is people see that we make something in the cloud really easy.

[00:17:40] Guillermo Rauch: And then they’re like, well, but can you make that other thing really easy? And that other thing really easy and that other thing really easy. can you make my data pipelines easy? Like, a lot of people kind of love the approach that we take on things. It’s like, well, I have this other hard problem at work.

[00:17:52] Guillermo Rauch: Can you also make it easy? And so the challenge becomes, okay, how, , thinly are you gonna spread yourself across all the possible [00:18:00] universal things that you could tackle? if you’re not ambitious enough, you’re kinda gonna fall behind. The world wanted you to do more. Hey, Vercel like, I thought you were gonna ship like a hundred different products this year.

[00:18:10] Guillermo Rauch: If you do too many, you’re like, Hey, Versal, like, are you just shipping slop? What’s going on here? So yeah, you’re just trying to cover too

[00:18:17] Chuck Carpenter: many

[00:18:17] Guillermo Rauch: edges at that point. Yes. And that is an, interesting force to deal with in its own writing. I think, my guess is that every entrepreneur struggles with this one on some level of, if I do too many things.

[00:18:30] Guillermo Rauch: I’m, uh, jack of old trace, master of none. Yeah. If I only do one thing, you know, my growth, whatever will slow down, I’ll disappoint my customers, whatever. So that’s, , that’s a fun one.

[00:18:40] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. And you’re

[00:18:41] Guillermo Rauch: accepting a

[00:18:41] Chuck Carpenter: certain

[00:18:42] Guillermo Rauch: level of

[00:18:42] Chuck Carpenter: responsibility to your customers. You start to like absorb more and more of those areas and you know, I’m now just trusting Versel.

[00:18:50] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. With handling my traffic, handling, you know, attacks and, you know, DDoS attacks. That’s a great example. And then another one would be like around, , security, right? Yeah. [00:19:00] Cybersecurity stuff in general, not just DDoS specific. Yeah.

[00:19:03] Chuck Carpenter: So at what point, like, do you intend to sort of accept that responsibility for like, knowledge and ownership into my project?

[00:19:13] Chuck Carpenter: You know, how much should I continually trust Versal to do the right thing for me, or should I get

[00:19:19] Guillermo Rauch: informed and cover those edges? That’s this such a great one because we live in a massive ecosystem, right? Like.

[00:19:25] Guillermo Rauch: , the thread model is nearly infinite. Think about what happened recently. there was a very popular project in the JavaScript tooling ecosystem that got honed and someone deployed a, uh, crypto miner.

[00:19:40] Guillermo Rauch: luckily it got discovered and sorted out very quickly. But NPM itself is a threat vector, right? Mm-hmm. we go above and beyond in protecting our own contributions to the NPM ecosystem. But the reality is my customers are using a lot of the things in the NPM ecosystem. Yeah. And I truly feel like I’m responsible over that because we are all [00:20:00] here responsible for the ecosystem that we exist in.

[00:20:02] Guillermo Rauch: And so if I, if I go and tell a client in, in a bank, Hey, this types strip thing is amazing, NextGen is amazing. Go all in. Deploy the future of your digital interactions with your millions of customers whose trust you’ve earned for a hundred years. Right onto this ecosystem. And they were like, oh shoot. , I was using left padd and left Padd deployed a post installed script and the post installed script like extracted all of our keys and yeah.

[00:20:28] Guillermo Rauch: And we’re not a business anymore. So I feel like when you are in this world of developer tools and infrastructure, you have to assume the responsibility. Cyber attacks on the traffic side, meaning like volumetric attacks, DDOS attacks, et cetera. Yeah. We’ve been fighting those for the 10 years that this company has existed.

[00:20:51] Guillermo Rauch: What’s more recent than new is that we started to productize the visibility. Like literally today I got a tweet of someone saying like, oh my God, thank you [00:21:00] VL for your firewall, because it prevented this 3000 threats and it blocked this 40 sources of traffic. And I remember telling the team, we have an internal principle at Versa, which is seeing is believing.

[00:21:12] Guillermo Rauch: Mm. We’ve been blocking those cyber threats. For years. Yeah. But if you don’t see it, you don’t believe it. Exactly. So for those that are in the audience, thinking about building products that have an in quote unquote an invisible component. ‘cause I always think it’s funny that infrastructure is invisible.

[00:21:29] Guillermo Rauch: Mm-hmm. So it’s very hard for us to size up the investment of quote unquote raw materials that go in human resources that go into it. Where here in Miami, I was like admiring all these beautiful buildings, the skyline, whatever. And like you can more or less say like, Hmm, that must have taken like thousands of workers and hundreds of millions of dollars, if not billions of dollars in investment.

[00:21:48] Guillermo Rauch: Right. Infrastructure is invisible. In fact, we recently did the math of like how big our racks are inside of AWS. It’s actually pretty bewildering now to think about how much physical [00:22:00] space at Amazon has automatically allocated for us with robots and people. Oh my gosh. But we never had to think about it.

[00:22:07] Guillermo Rauch: And we never visualized it. Yeah. And so when you think about cyber attacks and protecting against cyber threats, the lesson for us was like, data and knowledge is power. We have to make it super transparent to the end user, what’s going on. Yeah. And what’s going on is actually pretty sick. people will, like indie makers or solo entrepreneurs will build something.

[00:22:27] Guillermo Rauch: And versal, you know, welcomes them with open arms because we love the idea of like getting, feeling the pressure of the people that need to ship a hundred times a day and want to extract every possible ounce of power outta the platform. But then those people that are building like, their dream project get attacked by freaking like botnets that most recent that I thought heard about that we researched was a uh, set of DVR cameras all throughout the United States that are super high bandwidth uhoh.

[00:22:59] Guillermo Rauch: [00:23:00] So they’re constantly uploading really high quality video in real time. Yeah. Yeah. And so you can get so much internet throughput out of those that when we were mitigating this attack, we were like, who the hell?

[00:23:12] Guillermo Rauch: Like hard does this power Yes. To attack. Like sometimes it’s literally like a tiny website sometimes.

[00:23:20] Guillermo Rauch: It’s like an extremely strategic target. Yeah. But everybody, basically what we’ve learned is that everybody needs and deserves the same level of protection.

[00:23:29] Guillermo-Rauch_AP: Yeah.

[00:23:30] Guillermo Rauch: but the sort of like giving you access to the transparency of the data and the, and the twisting of the knobs, that’s more recent in the versal sort of journey.

[00:23:38] Aaron Francis: Huh. So you talked a little bit about building product and some of the advice you have for people building product. I wanna go back to what you were saying earlier about you do one thing well and your customers are like, Hey, do this other thing. Do databases. Yeah. Do waf do all of this other stuff.

[00:23:53] Aaron Francis: Do you personally, or does Versal as a company have a framework for deciding like.

[00:23:58] Aaron Francis: Hey, our customers are constantly [00:24:00] asking us this. We definitely wanna do it, or we definitely don’t want to do it. Like, how do you determine Yep. How you don’t stay a one trick pony and get passed up, and how you don’t spread yourself too thin. Yep.

[00:24:11] Guillermo Rauch: I love frameworks clearly next to this, et cetera, when you grow a certain size of a company and business, you start working on the framework for the company, not just the framework for the developers.

[00:24:22] Guillermo Rauch: Yeah. And so the, the, my job today is mostly, I still think a whole lot about next JS and V zero and things like that, but I think even more about the framework to create a company that can absorb all that input and produce high quality output. It’s like the render function of the products and experiences that we put out into the world.

[00:24:46] Guillermo Rauch: Yeah. So what are the inputs? The state are the things that a customer request Yeah. Innovations that we think up. And then what it gets sort of filtered down and passes these props is the most important function you could [00:25:00] possibly write. too rigorous of a function will make it such that you’re too much of a machine.

[00:25:05] Guillermo Rauch: You’re not flexible, you don’t take risks, right? But you do have to have certain filters. So one filter is things that we have used ourselves internally to create success, have a way higher likelihood of being productized and seeing the world. Okay. So a good example would be if I, create a really amazing thing with V zero.

[00:25:27] Guillermo Rauch: Yeah. I’m way more likely to green light the project because I’m like, Hey, like if I see myself using this, at the time we actually created it into a meme, which was called No Random Acts of ai. We can’t just like be excited about AI and put things into the world that we’re not proud of. So we wanted to create a product that had embedded our taste.

[00:25:47] Guillermo Rauch: Opinions that we used it internally that we’re proud of. Yeah. That whenever we demo it to others. Another principle is before something goes into the world, you have to be able to sit down with a customer or with a peer and you [00:26:00] demo it. So Apple actually borrowed this from Apple because they’re internal mantra and created the iPhone was like, we’re gonna demo every week.

[00:26:07] Guillermo Rauch: Demos over memos. And that’s how we evolved the product. Demo, demo, demo. Input, input, input, demo, demo, demo. And so constantly being demoing and watching other customers, you know, you can call them design partners as like the trendy term in, in the valley these days, people using the product and you watch them.

[00:26:27] Guillermo Rauch: Mm-hmm. ‘cause sometimes we tell ourselves a lot of lies, right? In our heads of like, yeah, the product is really good, the signup really works, the final is perfect. And then you watch someone do it and it’s like that meme of the guy trying to drink water by licking the bottom of the glass. And so that’s another one of the sort of like internal processes you can call them or principles that we follow.

[00:26:49] Guillermo Rauch: The other one is, I borrowed this one from Satya, from Microsoft. He calls it brand permission. Okay. I am not joking when I say that people ask me to sometimes build skateboards with [00:27:00] Versal logo or laptops or like, I’ve heard product requests in wireless categories like build me a forklift, a versal forklift.

[00:27:10] Guillermo Rauch: You know what I mean? Uh, and so I always think about like, alright, like I’m gonna announce it to the world. You know? Twilio also would do this, like the PR write, the press release today. Versel announces the Versal forklift to speed up construction worldwide. Like, I don’t think you would have the brand permission.

[00:27:26] Guillermo Rauch: Your customer base would be like, what? Yep. I’ve been asking you for like cues. Mm-hmm. And you share, you’re doing forklifts. Forklifts. Wait, wait. Tell me.

[00:27:35] Chuck Carpenter: Cues are coming.

[00:27:36] Guillermo Rauch: Yes. Well, I can’t commit nor deny, but confirm

[00:27:39] Chuck Carpenter: nor deny. But this could solve a problem for me in the near future. All we can can confirm is they’re coming before forklift.

[00:27:45] Chuck Carpenter: So that’s all we can say For sure. That already makes me me feel better. That’s

[00:27:48] Guillermo Rauch: a good framework for think about it. And so people call this adjacencies, so it has to be something that is with your constellation of reach and knowledge and [00:28:00] proficiency. Yeah. Satya had a great metaphor here of, they’ve been working on productivity tools, word, things like that.

[00:28:08] Guillermo Rauch: Things like DocuSign Yeah. Would’ve been a perfect adjacency for them. And perhaps sometimes they wandered off into doing weird things. Yep, yep. And then customers have had that reaction. So I really like learning also from like the other, like entrepreneurs and builders have been building the generational companies that, you learn ultimately from a lot of mistakes.

[00:28:26] Guillermo Rauch: Yeah. Uh, Jeff Business also talks about, you know, if you are not tolerant to failure, to some extent. You’ll become so rigid that you realize that ultimately one success pays for a thousand failed experiments. the loss of what people call like venture capital, which is like one startup returns the fund, is also true for your own investments.

[00:28:47] Guillermo Rauch: One good product returns from for a thousand failed experimental products. I think that’s fair. One feature, I’ve seen this a lot in our products, one feature or one integration, so like the GitHub integration with [00:29:00] Versal.

[00:29:00] Guillermo-Rauch_AP: Yeah.

[00:29:00] Guillermo Rauch: Paid for all every other integration. I’ve written so many bad integrations, I’ve misprioritized and whatever, but that one paid for everything.

[00:29:08] Guillermo Rauch: Yeah. Because everybody now goes to GitHub. They want to deploy, they install the first integration, they never think about it again.

[00:29:13] Guillermo-Rauch_AP: Yeah.

[00:29:14] Guillermo Rauch: and that’s another area where like I, in the early days I kind of underestimated the power of integrations. And this is true for everything you do in the world.

[00:29:21] Guillermo Rauch: Like try to integrate with others, try to partner. you’re not doing anything solo in this world. You’re always partnering with a community with the ecosystem. , and that’s why also I think React has been so successful. I don’t wanna make

[00:29:32] Aaron Francis: you dig up traumas, but what are some other, like experiments that you tried and realized, whoops, that ain’t it.

[00:29:38] Aaron Francis: And then are there any that like eventually came back to, to pay off

[00:29:42] Guillermo Rauch: deploying Haskill and COBOL is a funny one. Is that real? Yeah, yeah, for sure. in the early days, I think the common trap for entrepreneurs is more, is more mentality. Mm-hmm. But the way that you justify it is not because you didn’t listen to enough Steve Jobs videos.

[00:29:57] Guillermo Rauch: Mm-hmm. It’s because the world pushes you to be [00:30:00] ambitious. The, you look at, uh, public companies, you look at your aspirations, you look at your idols, and they have massive market caps. They support every language. They support all of it. And you might get tempted to be like, okay, I’m gonna win if I say yes to everything.

[00:30:14] Guillermo Rauch: Mm-hmm. Ah, right. And the version for that for us was that you’re gonna be able to deploy everything. Got. And I would literally spend time sometimes creating examples. For those languages. I’m not kidding. Like we had a bunch of Haskell examples, cobol, and part of it was to show the flexibility of the platform, but in some cases you’re like, man, like you can just read the room.

[00:30:35] Guillermo Rauch: No one has that need, just work a little closer to the customer. I think part of my job is to think ahead, of course to look around the corner, like what’s the next thing? Try to live in the future so that it can bridge that gap and be the one that takes an L for the team sometimes.

[00:30:53] Guillermo Rauch: , and you know, Silicon Valley is like that. A friend of mine was saying yesterday, like Silicon Valley’s like a big [00:31:00] lab and everybody kind of lives in the future. We have way more self-driving cars. But I was telling you this funny anecdote of when I arrived in Silicon Valley, I was an early user of a lot of the things that today are some of the most successful technologies.

[00:31:15] Guillermo Rauch: I was an early user of Uber. It was called Uber Cab, and it was only black limos. Yep. I was an early user of Airbnb. I lived in one of the first listed Airbnb units Oh, wow. In San Francisco where the co-founders had stayed to eat their own dog food. No way. So told about using your own product and I was an early customer and like super fan of a service called Waso, which would, as the name implies, wash and fold my clothes.

[00:31:43] Guillermo Rauch: Oh yeah. I love that. At an unreasonably low price. Oh. With a huge amount of like low latency. Like it would take no time and it would perfectly iron my clothes and like leave them. Sometimes it would even take them up to my apartment and I would just like have to like take them from my door to like my closet.

[00:31:59] Guillermo Rauch: [00:32:00] Like my life had been perfectly automated, but unfortunately that category didn’t work out. So this is the concept, right? Like you try to live in the future.

[00:32:07] Guillermo Rauch: Mm-hmm. Yeah. You try to live in the future where every luxury and every thing that you would want to automate that sounds like you’re watching the Jetsons. Mm-hmm. Is possible. Yeah. And then you work into, okay, how can I bring this reality to everybody in a sustainable fashion? And so that’s kind of the attitude that you have to take.

[00:32:26] Guillermo Rauch: But if you position yourself way too out into the future, if you try to like swing way too hard, you might miss. And so that’s kind of like the meta lesson in that kinda like you have to balance, I call it today. You have to balance ambition with realism. Yeah. And I would urge sometimes on like, don’t underestimate how big a small perfected thing can get so that then that becomes your launchpad into the next small perfected thing and the next small, perfect.

[00:32:55] Guillermo Rauch: And a good example, I think today, and I owe a huge amount of, uh, kudos here too. [00:33:00] Lars Grandma and Jerry Palmer in our team, A-I-S-D-K started out as this really small wrapper and multi our CTO for web streams are really freaking hard and all of the LLMs Stream tokens. And we started out with like, you know, let’s create a little toolkit to like literally wrap these LLMs and now it’s becoming an instrumental foundational piece of the AI ecosystem.

[00:33:25] Guillermo Rauch: You know, it might get us big or if not bigger than next JS itself. And it started as a small thing that we were gonna perfect. But we did have all these questions of like, alright, that’s an adjacency. Do we have brand permission? Can it get big enough? Are we gonna distract? Is it worth investing? So like, just because you’re making progress and you get bigger and you have resources and you have cracked colleagues, et cetera, it doesn’t mean it gets easier because you have all this like.

[00:33:50] Guillermo Rauch: Fundamental philosophical questions. Mm-hmm.

[00:33:52] Chuck Carpenter: You can always push it further and push it further Yes. And push it further. And is that gonna go over the edge? And then there it was. Yes. Yeah.

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[00:34:32] Aaron Francis: If you had to give, this past, let’s say five years of Burell an era, what would you name that era and what do you think the next era for Versel is going to

[00:34:42] Guillermo Rauch: be?

[00:34:43] Guillermo Rauch: That’s a great one. I think the web has gone through a couple eras in rapid succession. I call them like a static dynamic generative. Okay. A static was, and by the way, this is a weird one to think about because the web started out with like full [00:35:00] dynamism, CGI bin, put a pearl script in a folder plug the human directly into the machine, almost tell net SSH pipes bash Unix.

[00:35:09] Guillermo-Rauch_AP: Mm-hmm.

[00:35:10] Guillermo Rauch: But to scale the internet, we made it static. the web was starting to go into a couple directions, like static site generators, Gatsby gems, et cetera. Right? And, cash control CDNs and then client side JavaScript. We proved to the market that you could have the luxury, this is kinda like the Waso example or like the Uber example.

[00:35:30] Guillermo Rauch: I wanted really badly to democratize the technologies that the Googlers and the Facebookers had access to as a kid in Argentina. This is a wonder of the web. I had been able to reverse engineer how Google search worked, how meta worked, how Amazon worked. And I found this common pattern of like, these are highly dynamic, personalized systems that use a lot of service site rendering and are highly scalable.

[00:35:55] Guillermo Rauch: Of course, they have billions of users. So the last chapter of Versal was, can [00:36:00] we give every single developer on the planet that luxurious developer experience that before you had to get a job at Fang to get, hmm. And so it was a transition of a web that went from static to dynamic or hybrid. The future of the web is not that.

[00:36:14] Guillermo Rauch: You’re gonna get data from a database and you’re gonna ute it into some kind of markup. Of course, it’s gonna continue to happen, and there’s a lot of value in, in doing that, But now we’re starting to democratize the other aspects that made Google special. I even call this the unbundling of Google.

[00:36:28] Guillermo Rauch: Google got really big and popular by basically reading your mind. Hmm. You know, you started typing in an auto completer. This is another thing that got me extremely freaking like JavaScript built. Yeah. When Google launched, Google suggest you would start typing and then they tell you the future. What the hell is that?

[00:36:45] Guillermo Rauch: in fact, , I wrote this article that I referenced today in the panel, the seven Principles of Rich Web Applications, and my last principle that was starting to be future forward. I wrote this in 2014, thinking about the next 10 years of Versel. Right. , and to your point, this is kind of the chapter that we’re [00:37:00] now completing.

[00:37:00] Guillermo Rauch: The last principle was called Negative Latency. So the only way that you can get negative lat is either by creating a time machine. We might get there someday, you know, reversing entropy and faster than light communication and wormholes and whatever. Like,

[00:37:14] Aaron Francis: maybe let’s do forklifts first. That sounds

[00:37:17] Guillermo Rauch: hard.

[00:37:17] Guillermo Rauch: I don’t know if we have yet brand permission for like Einstein Rosen wormholes. Yeah. But, uh, the other technique is machine learning. And, and so the, the unbundling and democratization of Google is that all of these technologies that they invented, like transformers and uh, generative models and all of these things are now APIs that anybody can call.

[00:37:40] Guillermo Rauch: Like truly everybody can cook. And so the web will become generative in a, in a number of ways. One is, when people want to build for the web, they’re gonna be able to generate all of that code. on some level. And it’s the luxury of sometimes being able to abstract yourself away a little bit and, and think about like 10 years in the future.

[00:37:59] Guillermo Rauch: It is kinda [00:38:00] crazy that we all got accustomed to memorizing shit, looking it up on Stack Overflow and then typing it manually. I I, ah, the good old days exactly like, you know, we we’re doing a lot of that still, but it’s kind of wild that we thought that the way of the future was like typing fast.

[00:38:19] Guillermo Rauch: Mm-hmm. when I was a kid in Argentina, there was this, software that my dad got. Everything in Argentina is soccer themed. Mm-hmm. Spoiler alert. So we’re here in Miami, messy, et cetera. Right. The president of Argentina right now. Are you proud of that guy? Yeah, exactly. Okay. He, national hero. our president won not only because of his new ideas and whatever, he used to be a goalkeeper.

[00:38:40] Guillermo Rauch: I didn’t know way this million. I did not know that. I didn’t know that. In order to sort of achieve cultural dominance in Argentina, on some level, you need a sports, a sports background rooted in soccer. Oh, funny. Hi. , I don’t think it’s as true in the US although there is a social status that comes from like, were you awesome at [00:39:00] football?

[00:39:00] Guillermo Rauch: Sure. Or baseball or whatever.

[00:39:02] Chuck Carpenter: I, I could kind of see that because we have no, like modern era, massive wars. But if you look at some That’s right. Past presidents, they were war heroes. That’s right. And I would definitely help them. So you need to be perceived as some kind of conquer hero Yes. To the

[00:39:15] Guillermo Rauch: people.

[00:39:15] Guillermo Rauch: And so the software that my dad got me was the keyword champion. Yep. it was a typing game and you would score by tapping really fast. Nice. And I crushed that game. I think, I think my dad was smart there to like, he found something that like had overlapping interest.

[00:39:33] Guillermo Rauch: How can I get my kid, , computer literate? Yes. Without making it boring and whatever. Yes. Genius. Yeah. And uh, he tried it again with my sons. And it doesn’t work. No. It’s like dad first they live in San Francisco. Yeah. They don’t know what soccer is. Yeah. You’re you’re bringing shame upon your nation by that

[00:39:51] Chuck Carpenter: also.

[00:39:52] Chuck Carpenter: But they don’t know what soccer is. That’s true. ‘cause you, you don’t have an MLS team, right? Yeah, they, well, we have a San Jose. [00:40:00] Oh yeah. Earthquake. Earthquake. Yeah. Which is an original MLSI. But they’ve gone away and come back a couple of different times. If we were

[00:40:06] Guillermo Rauch: in Miami, I think they would be into it.

[00:40:07] Guillermo Rauch: Oh yeah. I mean, who wouldn’t? I, I blame all myself. I blame our surroundings. Mm-hmm. They’re, they’re more into, well, I mean, they’re into a lot of like, tech stuff too, but, other sports of course. So anyways, typing really fast, having good memory. Yeah. Good Recall pattern matching were the fundamental skills of how do you get really cracked at.

[00:40:29] Guillermo Rauch: Mm-hmm. I mean, not, not the only skills, but a contributing skill. I think it’s useful. Yeah. And so now we’re generating a lot of that and it’s, I think I always. Call out a people, and I remind myself daily, you know, you have to not become too attached to your ego in the age of ai, of the skills, the individual lanes that you develop proficiency in, because if you get too attached to that, it’s just we are one model generation away from being like absolutely crushed.

[00:40:59] Guillermo Rauch: Right? [00:41:00] Yeah. So the, the future of the web is more people contributing to it, more generation, and also the, the other like science fiction, but I think we’re gonna make it real, is that the web itself becomes fully generated that the next time you return to a website, there is a new version that within certain guardrails.

[00:41:19] Guillermo Rauch: ‘cause we have to be careful about it, you know, like Skynet 2.0 and whatnot. Yeah. Within certain cart rails, the web should become fully generative.

[00:41:27] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. I mean the, the con actually, I worked for a company called Acquia years ago and worked on a, a digital product that used like marketing segmentation to have dynamic content that was individualized.

[00:41:39] Chuck Carpenter: So that concept has been around for a little while and so why wouldn’t that just continue to evolve Totally. And probably get a lot faster and smarter with things like ai.

[00:41:47] Guillermo Rauch: Yeah. And you know, you could imagine a world where V zero when you ask it for, well create me the landing page for this. It’s not just creating like the onetime iteration of that.

[00:41:57] Guillermo Rauch: Yeah. But it’s embedding in the code, the [00:42:00] runtime V zero component that behind the scenes knows all of these technologies that US nerds know about. And like ISR and impartial and all this junk Yeah. That people won’t have to know about will leverage those foundations. But then with the, you know, marketer, business person, idea person will get to do what I think they’ve expected the web to always be able to do.

[00:42:21] Guillermo Rauch: Mm. Yeah. Which is, oh, can we launch a hundred permutations of that or can you just get better based on my feedback Yeah. Or my customer’s feedback in a more direct way. So yeah, I, I think the TLDR is that the web gets easier and more accessible to more people and ultimately will realize, I think it’s, it’s ultimate potential.

[00:42:41] Guillermo Rauch: I think, , maybe to getting even more philosophical here, like a lot of people, and this is not the world that I would want my children to grow up in, you know, political issues about blocking TikTok aside, we’ve become a consumer society. Yeah. we consume more than we create And And I think it’s our [00:43:00] responsibility as creators, dev tools makers, infrastructure platform makers to turn that around.

[00:43:04] Guillermo Rauch: Let’s turn our kids and their grandkids into builders. Maybe not all of them. Like I, you know, like I don’t fully subscribe to the marketing. Like there’s gonna be 5 billion developers. probably not, but there should probably be 10, 15 20x more than we have today.

[00:43:23] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. Yeah. I could definitely see that being the case.

[00:43:26] Chuck Carpenter: We’re gonna continually evolve and as long as we’re giving the ability for our next generations to actually learn the foundational information to like, you know, champion the fast typing, which that’s not what you really need anymore, because now you’re doing it in a different way, you know, a speech to text way, but you understand what you’re saying and how it’ll translate that.

[00:43:46] Chuck Carpenter: I think that’s an excellent future.

[00:43:48] Guillermo Rauch: Yeah. I had an amazing trip to Japan recently, speaking of Japanese whiskeys

[00:43:53] Guillermo Rauch: I went to Okinawa and I went to the A Did you see Miyagi? I did not. Oh, okay. [00:44:00] But I’ll follow that. I’ll follow up. I actually have not been to any martial arts or sumo. I haven’t wanted to go, but not yet.

[00:44:05] Guillermo Rauch: Okay. But anyways, the, I, I went to the Abacus School.

[00:44:09] Guillermo Rauch: The Abacus is the first computer that humanity has created. Mm-hmm. To basically automate in a primitive way, but in an effective way, arithmetic, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You can do math that is much more ambitious than what you could do in your head. Yep.

[00:44:24] Guillermo Rauch: And we watched these kids that were literally man, like just freaking alien. Mm-hmm. A 4-year-old doing like, uh, addition and multiplication with like nine digits. Wow. Like he watches a, a screen flash and he does abacus in his head. Oh. So it was hilarious because they had the abacus in the table. Yeah.

[00:44:43] Guillermo Rauch: But they didn’t use it. No. This is like, like out of an anime, you know, like. They play basketball or whatever, and like they do like, alien things to it. Uhhuh, this is it. Because the abacus is sitting there and in their heads they’re doing like mental virtual abacus. Yeah. And the lesson [00:45:00] there, and the reason we were there was, look, that is an important skill.

[00:45:03] Guillermo Rauch: Like why wouldn’t you want to go through the endure the pain mm-hmm. That these kids have gone through. I’m, I’m, I’m a huge fan of that. Yeah. But at the same time, you have to have the realization that that’s not gonna get you all the way. Mm-hmm. We have calculators. Mm-hmm. We have ai. Yeah. Mm-hmm. We have not just bicycles in the mind right now, we have freaking rockets mm-hmm.

[00:45:25] Guillermo Rauch: Of them. We have reusable rockets of the mind. And so, funny enough, Okinawa is the, , least privileged perfection in Japan. So we had an opportunity to sort of bring ideas from Silicon Valley and inspire them with like, complimentary skills. Yeah. You don’t just wanna become that one thing. Right. Uh, but it was just.

[00:45:44] Guillermo Rauch: Amazing. And, uh, it inspired us for, , what the future of computing will look like and, uh, and how it’ll transform humanity

[00:45:51] Aaron Francis: at this point , in Elle’s history. What are you, like, what is driving you? Because like from the outside you’ve made it [00:46:00] right? I know you don’t, I’m, I’m sure you don’t feel that way, but from the outside it looks like, alright, he’s made, he is got a big company, like they’re crushing it.

[00:46:07] Aaron Francis: you’ve talked a lot about democratization of the web, which is pure noble and Right, and that may be the, the answer is it that, is it you get a high off of the framework building the framework that is the company, you know, you’re big framework guy. Is it seeing Versel IPO or is it

[00:46:25] Guillermo Rauch: something completely different?

[00:46:27] Guillermo Rauch: So one of the amazing things about building a company like this is that there’s never adu Day, as I said. Mm-hmm. There’s never a day that’s not hard.

[00:46:33] Guillermo Rauch: There’s never a day that you’re like, oh, I made it. I’m, I’m so relaxed. So in case people in the audience were worried about that, like what’s awesome is you get more reach, impact, et cetera, and then you get tougher problems to solve, higher ceilings to break through.

[00:46:48] Guillermo Rauch: And, , other kinds of scale problems. As I mentioned, you go from this, uh, problem of like the framework for the tech to the framework for the company. And you become more ambitious in the process too, right? Like new doors [00:47:00] open. it’s like a fun video game in which there’s more bosses and, things like that along the game while you’re struggling, like, almost like when you play like Pokemon and Game Boy, there’s a lot of people that help you along the way.

[00:47:10] Guillermo Rauch: Mm-hmm. There’s the people that like cheer you on. I remember playing Pokemon a lot and it’s like, there’s always a guy in those RPGs or whatever that you talk to and like, they have nothing to add but cheer you on. And so there’s, there’s that, there’s your immortal enemy mm-hmm. Of the day, you know, like whatever, Matthew Prince or whoever.

[00:47:28] Guillermo Rauch: Mm-hmm. And like you, you battle him here and there. Yep. But you’re always in a journey in a good. Coan petition market in capitalism, you, you learn from your rivals and you grow each other and whatever, and ultimately you hone them if you’re ash, ketchu, catch, whatever his name is. And so there’s the competition that, I really like.

[00:47:46] Guillermo Rauch: There’s the fact that you go around the world and you make a lot of people happy, and they’re like, the stories that you learn about the company are fascinating at scale. The things that people will tell you. Like, this is a funny one. Like, we hired [00:48:00] a, a great product manager at Versal and he told me that his entire career was, was made by, so the funny thing is my last name is Rouch and there is a little town in Argentina called Rouch.

[00:48:11] Guillermo Rauch: Oh. In which there’s only cows.

[00:48:13] Guillermo-Rauch_AP: Hmm.

[00:48:13] Guillermo Rauch: Like every time I would pass it in the highway, it’s like, whoa, cool, dad, is that ours? And it’s like, no, there’s nothing there. And maybe your grandfather had it one, uh, one day. But this guy had, , grown up there. I didn’t know this. And he wanted to. get out of the life of like the rural Argentina, et cetera.

[00:48:32] Guillermo Rauch: Struggle. Yeah. And he went to college for computer science, and his big breakthrough was he started learning nex js and he started contributing to the examples. And a company in Germany found him because , they couldn’t find actually as developers, and they were like, Hey, let’s go to the committers.

[00:48:49] Guillermo Rauch: Yeah. Who’s been contributing recently, this guy had made an open source contribution. This is also like full circle to the power of open source and like a contribution that you make to a Ariba might change your life. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. So he went from [00:49:00] route Argentina, which by the way sounds dope. Wow.

[00:49:02] Guillermo Rauch: But it was very poor to being in Germany, , with a work visa and a new life and whatever. And eventually found his way to Versa, Brazil. And, you know, hearing this story is just like, just so amazing. And it was all because all, all these threats connected. Mm-hmm. And so that’s another thing that’s like so amazing, all this emergent things that happen.

[00:49:24] Guillermo Rauch: , things that people deploy on the platform. we’ve done so much with, there was recently massive floodings in Argentina and all of the disaster relief efforts that happened that we sponsored on the platform that people could create, projects and apps, like help people actually, that one is one with V zero.

[00:49:39] Guillermo Rauch: Like they had to move so fast mm-hmm. To create this like, interactive map with real time data of where people could get help and they had vibe coded it. we keep creating platforms and , you keep seeing all this emergent phenomenon and it’s just interesting and, and fascinating and, uh, and hard but, but rewarding

[00:49:58] Chuck Carpenter: that fuels the fire.

[00:50:00]

[00:50:00] Chuck Carpenter: So it makes me wonder ‘cause I don’t know where that town is. What town are you from? It’s called Lanu. Okay.

[00:50:06] Guillermo Rauch: Which is not short for Lee Anus, not to be confused. Mm-hmm. Okay.

[00:50:11] Guillermo Rauch: , so it’s, it’s in the outers of Argentina. It’s famous for having been the. Where, uh, Marona was born? Ah, your other national hero.

[00:50:20] Guillermo Rauch: Yes. I was gonna say peace was the primary one, I would say. And he was born in an even rougher part of town as I was,

[00:50:27] Guillermo Rauch: his didn’t even have any paving whatsoever. And so there is this famous video of him kicking a ball that he had assembled himself with, like, used, worn, not clothes. Like he didn’t even have money for, , for a soccer bowl.

[00:50:39] Guillermo Rauch: so we grew up there and then eventually moved to the city because, , I got into a high school that basically like, kind of, we’re talking about like open source. It’s like, a launching pad for a lot of Argentinians that if you’re willing to study really hard, this school is free. Oh, cool.

[00:50:56] Guillermo Rauch: You have to like win a competition almost to get in. and then I [00:51:00] actually, I got so distracted by mood tools and open source to react and all these things, and like I quickly became the worst student. Mm. but a good open source contributor, we’ll, we’ll allow it, it turned out

[00:51:11] Aaron Francis: okay. Yeah.

[00:51:11] Guillermo Rauch: That became the next launching pad.

[00:51:13] Guillermo Rauch: Yeah. , so kind of like the RA story, like the open source is a global launching pad. I hope that becomes a legacy of our companies, of everyone that’s here, react, Laravel, everyone’s been participating in this. You sometimes don’t know how big of a launch path this thing is becoming for people in other countries especially.

[00:51:31] Guillermo Rauch: Yeah. , where they don’t have a clear path to universities. They don’t have a clear path to jobs. They don’t have a clear path to mastery. Yeah. And uh, and open source is one of the big channels of our generation. Yeah. It’s a learn by doing platform where we lack

[00:51:48] Chuck Carpenter: things like apprenticeships and whatever else.

[00:51:50] Chuck Carpenter: Mm-hmm. That’s right. Which I think would be very beneficial, especially in, you know, yeah. Our career paths. But you know, that is open to anyone and the quality is [00:52:00] there. And if you have a good community, then you’re getting good feedback and mentorship through that as well. Yes.

[00:52:05] Chuck Carpenter: , now I’ve got another important follow up question to my previous question, which is, , Boca or River Plate?

[00:52:11] Guillermo Rauch: Well, I have to go with Linus. Okay. Because it’s actually they punch above their weight. Yeah. They’re so good. I like ing. So, you know, that

[00:52:19] Chuck Carpenter: would’ve been,

[00:52:19] Guillermo Rauch: but RCC has sold these clubs, like that’s racing club. Yeah. And River is River as in river. I don’t know why they’re like, I one gets this dug vanish accent and the other doesn’t.

[00:52:31] Guillermo Rauch: It’s strange.

[00:52:32] Chuck Carpenter: I’m sure there’s some historical context and like you said, Argentina has had a ton of immigration into it. Yes. And so there could be a good mix there.

[00:52:41] Guillermo Rauch: So my dad had determined that the household was Boca fans. Okay. to add some challenges for us in elementary school because we’re like, wait, why are you not with the rest of the town?

[00:52:52] Guillermo Rauch: We’re Boca we’re special. Yeah. , but the

[00:52:55] Chuck Carpenter: future you were gonna be in town

[00:52:56] Guillermo Rauch: eventually river, they’re called the millionaires. They [00:53:00] have the most fancy everything. Yeah. It’s the racetrack thing or something, right? Yeah.

[00:53:03] Chuck Carpenter: And

[00:53:03] Guillermo Rauch: the part of town is beautiful, the polo

[00:53:05] Chuck Carpenter: matches or something. I actually recently

[00:53:06] Guillermo Rauch: looked up why they’re called the millions.

[00:53:08] Guillermo Rauch: There’s something with immigration. They, lucked out. Oh no. And they lucked out with exploring a few soccer players. Mm. Like imagine if he had landed the messy pass to Barcelona, but not when he was 14, but when he was like 21. Oh, right. You would’ve made generational money for like 10, you would’ve owned half of Argentina.

[00:53:27] Guillermo Rauch: Yeah. So I went to River Stadium last time I was in Argentina, and it was just incredible. Like everything was pristine. And the, the show, I, I actually highly recommend it to anyone that visit Argentina, go to the rip Play stadium, , and watch a live, like if it’s like a very hot match. Very contested. Even better.

[00:53:47] Guillermo Rauch: Yeah. I was gonna say, it’s also safer. I’ve been to the Bombardi

[00:53:50] Chuck Carpenter: and super. Like what do you do? It was daytime in the police. Yeah. Like rolled up on us and like, what are you doing here? Yes. you should go. Yes. Three blocks that way. Yes. Yeah. [00:54:00] It’s

[00:54:00] Guillermo Rauch: gotten so much better. Okay. In river compared to bomb.

[00:54:03] Guillermo Rauch: , but it is funny that to get better the ratio of citizen to police officer is absurd. That speaks to the potential of the riots because the ratio was like, what a 20? Yeah. , yeah. So they get passionate. Passionate is a good thing. Passion is a really good thing. Yes. Yeah. Um,

[00:54:21] Aaron Francis: all right. I’ve got one last off topic question for you on topic, but slightly off topic.

[00:54:26] Aaron Francis: I know you and Taylor at well are friends. What is your favorite thing about Laravel?

[00:54:31] Guillermo Rauch: Many things. One is, uh, about PHP in general, which is a huge inspiration for an XJS because there’s two brilliant things about it. One, which I think some people will dispute, and one I think, which is. Objective. The objective one is that the life cycle of PHP in which a request comes in and that determines the computation unit mm-hmm.

[00:54:55] Guillermo Rauch: Is what eventually AWS rediscovered with Lambda. Mm-hmm. And the concept [00:55:00] of a function and the invocation trigger being the request is a very meaningful bit in the huge entropy of distributed systems. Mm-hmm. The fact that the request can inform load balancing and placement and scheduling of systems, that it basically tells you something needs to be done.

[00:55:21] Guillermo Rauch: And when this response completes, we can do cleanup of sorts or we can do de allocation of resources. Yeah. Is the right mental model to think about computation in the context of web services and PHP because it was focused on web services. And by the way, this is why focus is so important. There is PHPC allies, I’ve seen the artisan stuff, et cetera.

[00:55:41] Guillermo Rauch: But the fact that they focused on web services, actually what’s made it so successful, they actually nailed the computational framework. They were like, okay, if you wanna use PHP, the first thing you need is Mod, PHP and Apache, as opposed to almost every other programming language, and run them environment.

[00:55:56] Guillermo Rauch: They said, well, what do you wanna do? If you wanna do this kinda [00:56:00] system, you have to run it as a demon, and here’s 200 options with in D mm-hmm. And system D and Kubernetes and whatever. So I think PHP picked the right battle at the right time, even ahead of their times. And sort of like the, that request oriented invocation model.

[00:56:16] Guillermo Rauch: and the other one that’s more controversial, because I think some people don’t believe in it, but I’m obviously drinking the Kool-Aid hard for 10 years now, is the file system, uh, routing. So like, I love file

[00:56:28] Chuck Carpenter: routing, by the way. I love file

[00:56:30] Guillermo Rauch: system. I feel like I’m on the verge of being vindicated in the form of LLMs.

[00:56:36] Guillermo Rauch: Mm-hmm. So LLMs. Are becoming very good at file systems. Hmm. In fact,

[00:56:41] Guillermo Rauch: one way that LLMs have been able to age genetically, distribute work and explore systems and not saturate context, windows has been by using files. In fact, all 4 0 3 mini whatever, , came out yesterday. if you use [00:57:00] Codex, CLI, it’s been post trained to examine file systems and use Ls and g, grab and find and all of these things.

[00:57:10] Guillermo Rauch: So file systems are actually a very meaningful part of the infrastructure of the digital world, is what I would say. Yeah. So kind of like Waymo, how to get good at figuring out streets and stoplights and turning signals. It couldn’t just like say yolo, we’re just gonna do whatever. This is the short of path through your house.

[00:57:28] Guillermo Rauch: Exactly. Exactly. Cannot do that. Yeah. That’s the file system today. And uh, and that’s why I’m saying it’s vindicated. Vindicated because when I started an xray as an inspirational with php, but it’s a gift that keeps them giving.

[00:57:38] Guillermo-Rauch_AP: Yeah.

[00:57:39] Guillermo Rauch: It’s a gift that, like you open a project and you can recent about it, you can find the conventions, you can explore the routing, system with opening up the folder.

[00:57:48] Guillermo Rauch: And so that was a huge inspiration from PHP that he would throw in a PHP file in a folder and it would immediately become routable. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, CJ Abin had also done it of course, but uh, for me the inspiration was [00:58:00] PHP. Yeah. And now on Laravel specifically, I feel like it’s very similar to Next Js where I think it proves that run times are too primitive.

[00:58:08] Guillermo Rauch: of course they’re immensely valuable and necessary, and we wouldn’t be here without node. I love what BUN and Dino are doing to push node and push the community forward and, and, and in their own ecosystems. Yeah. But I find like the sweet spot is the framework. Mm-hmm. I think you reach the highest number of people and you just, give them the most amount of value.

[00:58:28] Guillermo Rauch: Mm-hmm. So, obviously kudos to AVL for finding that same sort of, balance , or place where they could add value , in the BHB ecosystem and also the other. I think this is not gonna be surprising to people because it’s so obvious that it’s created a very complete story. Mm-hmm. And we’re talking about, you know, how enterprises ask us for more features.

[00:58:52] Guillermo Rauch: They expect us to do everything for them over time. And I think that’s great. I think you’re gonna find that customers over time [00:59:00] want complete solutions. Yeah. Especially the more mature they are. Mm-hmm. I think when you’re more in the experimental phase of the innovation curve of a community, the community wants, oh, give me this piece.

[00:59:13] Guillermo Rauch: I wanna experiment with this other piece. If you think about react, think about how the community was breaking it apart into all these things. Here’s the state manager. Mm-hmm. Here’s the CS, CSS and JS solution. Here’s the router. Why It was immature and not because those pieces are not necessary, but like the next a hundred million people are probably not gonna be interested in having 12 different options for how to do CSS js.

[00:59:39] Guillermo Rauch: Right? Yeah. And so this is why I think we’re now entering the stability phase of the ecosystem

[00:59:44] Guillermo Rauch: and hope there’s gonna be more complete solutions. Hope. Yes, please. That’d be awesome. It’s, it is what people want as well. Yeah. And I think has done a masterful job mm-hmm. At giving you a very predictable, stable set of tools.

[00:59:58] Guillermo Rauch: Obviously more on the backend side. Sure. [01:00:00] Clearly. , but it’s, it’s an inspiration for us in that sense as well.

[01:00:03] Aaron Francis: Cool. No, that’s really, I, I didn’t know that PHP played a part in the inspiration for next. That’s very cool. I do like PHPs, , create the universe and destroy it on every request. It’s awesome. I love, it’s

[01:00:15] Guillermo Rauch: very easy to reason about, it’s very reactive, right?

[01:00:17] Guillermo Rauch: Mm-hmm. Like react, and Jordan was just talking about this in the panel. React took that approach of like, there’s some state over here. Let’s create the entire virtual dom, or even the illusion that you’re creating the entire application every single time. Yeah.

[01:00:32] Guillermo Rauch: And I find that that’s the model that ultimately you’d be surprised about how frequently things get, actually start over from scratch.

[01:00:41] Guillermo Rauch: Just totally blown way in the world of distributed systems, because things are always failing and they have to be recreated from scratch. Mm-hmm. Yeah. , you don’t wanna piggyback on the accumulation of state. In fact, one of the great things about functions is that they don’t make assumptions about.

[01:00:55] Guillermo Rauch: Having been running for two years. Yeah. And accumulating a lot of [01:01:00] caches, it has forced versa to do an enormous amount of work into making things fast when they’re cold. Yeah. I would always tell the team, I love that we have this challenge because in the real world, things do get cold.

[01:01:13] Guillermo Rauch: You know, there’s traffic spikes. There is, you know, during the weekends mm-hmm. Most of our customers during the weekends, like lose a lot of their traffic.

[01:01:20] Guillermo-Rauch_AP: Yeah.

[01:01:20] Guillermo Rauch: And sometimes you have unpredictable spikes of traffic. We’re like, oh, oh, I didn’t tell you for sale that I was gonna do this Super Bowl ad they paid $7 million for Yeah.

[01:01:30] Guillermo Rauch: But you told me they were gonna scale. And yes, of course I rise up to that challenge and that means reconstructing the world from scratch in many, many different ways, fail over. Mm-hmm. You know, at scale things are constantly, the, the CTO of AWS though says, you know, ultimately something is failing all of the time right now as we’re sitting here.

[01:01:52] Guillermo Rauch: Some computers just died. Oh, yeah. There’s also the categories of failures that are, , our infrastructure engineers have trained themselves to create monitors for, which is like [01:02:00] unpredictable degradations. Mm. Which is worse than, like, I, I’ll take a segmentation fault, I’ll take a computer that stops responding.

[01:02:07] Guillermo Rauch: Yeah. Over a computer that starts being, it spikes up to a hundred percent CPU for no good reason. Mm-hmm. And at the scale of the number of computers that we’re running, we don’t even have the bandwidth to investigate. We just need self-healing systems. Yeah. And so embracing the wilderness of, of the universe is a fantastic engineering principle that I think, uh, you know, runtimes, , like PHB kind of came into from the, from the early days.

[01:02:32] Guillermo Rauch: Alright,

[01:02:33] Chuck Carpenter: now it’s time for the most important question of them all. Let’s say you couldn’t work in tech, there is no tech. what would you do otherwise? And you don’t have to have the skill now, it can just be an interest of passion or whatever else.

[01:02:45] Guillermo Rauch: Yeah. So when I was a promising young student in Argentina, because they had these two faces, like

[01:02:51] Guillermo Rauch: the dark side and the, you know, almost like, uh, competing priorities between my dad and my mom.

[01:02:57] Guillermo Rauch: My mom was a chemical engineer, super [01:03:00] cracked at math, loved, , academic recognition. My dad almost like, wanted to ignore his academic achievements. He became an industrial engineer. He said, you know what? Software is the way. If I could go back in time, I would’ve not gotten this degree. you know, almost like, uh, self-deprecating in a way.

[01:03:18] Guillermo Rauch: Yeah. And so I started my, , life as more on my mom’s side of, you know, winning the math contest at school and studying really hard. And, and then when I was about 13, 14, I went off the rails really badly, but. I had almost like a fork on the road. So one of the dreams and visions that I had is in Bar Loche.

[01:03:39] Guillermo Rauch: Oh yeah. Argentina, the south of Argentina. By the way, if you come to Miami, there’s a bar Loche Alpha ho place here that I bought Alpha Ho that I took to the Dax party last night. That’s what that was. I saw you walk in with that. I saw that and now I was like, Barce bar From there. I’m like, yeah, so I could have ended.

[01:03:57] Guillermo Rauch: So it’s either go north to Silicon Valley, [01:04:00] like really north or go very south. Argentina is a very long country, uh, to Barce or the area where there’s an institute called ero, which is one of the most reputable nuclear engineering places in the world. Oh, right, yeah. Okay. In fact, uh, a friend of mine who’s now the chief of advisors to the current president in Argentina is a nuclear scientist from this institution.

[01:04:23] Guillermo Rauch: And we’re recently talking about, it was like a small world because he also had kind of a. Fork on the road. He went that route. I went the tech route. , and so I still long for it to be honest, because in order to get to where we need to go in terms of becoming a multi-planetary species that has super human intelligence, we’re gonna need unprecedented amounts of energy and compute.

[01:04:45] Guillermo Rauch: Mm-hmm. In fact, there’s almost an equation that has been implicitly discovered, which is the transmutation of energy into intelligence. Right. Like if you think about test time compute, it’s becoming very, very clear that it’s not that we can’t have [01:05:00] unbounded intelligence, our limiting factor has become energy.

[01:05:03] Guillermo Rauch: Yeah. And so nuclear is gonna take us there, vision and fusion. you know, there’s another parallel universe Yeah. In which Rouch G is studying is nuclear science. And try to like come up with a reactor of sorts. And I think there is also like an intersection of like, you know, how do we get more out of, , improved designs of computers?

[01:05:26] Guillermo Rauch: Yeah. And so I think parallelization is clearly the way, I think Math malls, , and Vector Math and GPUs, you know, there’s this awesome carpathy tweet about like, how weird is it that intelligence is being created mm-hmm. From gaming cards. Mm-hmm. Like we would buy GPU to render Grand Theft Auto. sick FBS mm-hmm.

[01:05:51] Guillermo Rauch: Or Call of Duty. And now that’s behind the intelligence age and the intelligence revolution. But I mean, a big part of that is the great [01:06:00] parallelism that comes from like these plans that get put onto the GPU grid. Yeah. And so uncovering new forms of highly parallel computation in quantum computing and.

[01:06:11] Guillermo Rauch: You know, newer designs for asics and GBU is one of my other, , big interests slash pair lives.

[01:06:18] Guillermo Rauch: I gotta say that’s a way nerdier answer

[01:06:20] Aaron Francis: that I expected, right? It’s most, most people say like, I don’t know, I’d be a painter or a farmer. I thought he said, when he said bar Loche and he talked about the plate, he was gonna say, I want, I would’ve been a basic, there’s like an, there’s an implicit lesson here that he’s like, if I didn’t create this massive company, I would go be a nuclear scientist and create a reactor.

[01:06:38] Aaron Francis: I think maybe some people are just built different. Yeah, maybe. Maybe that’s what it, I think react,

[01:06:42] Guillermo Rauch: there’s an issue to react. Like react is like this, like reactor, right? Mm-hmm. Uh, it’s all connected in the universe, guys. Yeah.

[01:06:49] Chuck Carpenter: You can’t escape it.

[01:06:50] Chuck Carpenter: I would ask you if there’s anything you wanna plug or where people can find you.

[01:06:54] Chuck Carpenter: I’m pretty sure by this point they know where that is,

[01:06:56] Guillermo Rauch: but say it anyway. Where can people find you? R Geo Next [01:07:00] dms are open. There you go. Excellent. T always happy to talk to people.

[01:07:03] Chuck Carpenter: All right, perfect. And thanks for sitting down with us. Uh, thank you. Any, any parting thoughts or all good? No, I mean, had a lot of fun.

[01:07:09] Chuck Carpenter: We, I’ll be back. That’s promised. Yep. Yeah, we’ll make it happen. Don’t worry. Otherwise, I’ll chase you for years. You know how this goes. All right, check never forgets. Thanks for doing this. Nope, that one sucks. now hit one. That was awesome.

[01:07:26] Chuck Carpenter: Sweet. Hello?

[01:07:27] Outro: You’ve been watching Whiskey Web and Whatnot. Recorded in front of a live studio audience. What the fuck are you talking about, Chuck? Enjoyed the show? Subscribe. You know, people don’t pay attention to these, right? Head to whiskey.fund for merchant to join our Discord server. I’m serious, it’s like 2% of people who actually click these links. And don’t forget to leave us a five star review and tell your friends about the show. All right, dude, I’m outta here. Still got [01:08:00] it.