Whiskey Web and Whatnot

A whiskey fueled fireside chat with your favorite web developers.


132: Next.js's Speed vs. RedwoodJS's Strength: The Web Development Drama You Can't Ignore

Show Notes

Join hosts RobbieTheWagner and Charles William Carpenter III as they delve into a wide variety of topics on their podcast, Whiskey Web and Whatnot. This episode features a detailed tasting of the Booker's Small Batch, Kentucky Straight Bourbon Whiskey – the Storyteller Batch. The hosts talk in-depth about the bourbon, its packaging, and flavors.

Robbie and Charles go on to share their thoughts on the intricacies of web development, discussing the pros and cons of latest web frameworks. Additionally, they dive into personal anecdotes, talking about the winter and the joys of playing video games. Tune in for an engaging blend of whiskey sipping, tech talk, and casual banter.

Key Takeaways

  • [01:07] - Unboxing and Introduction to Booker's Bourbon
  • [01:51] - Tasting and Reviewing the Whiskey
  • [03:06] - Diving into Personal Stories and Jokes
  • [03:28] - Analyzing the Whiskey's Aroma and Flavor
  • [04:37] - Continuing the Whiskey Tasting and Discussion
  • [07:10] - Final Thoughts and Rating of the Whiskey
  • [13:02] - Transitioning to Tech Talk: Web Development
  • [13:08] - Discussing Syntax Swag and Whiskey Web Merch
  • [15:47] - Debate on React and Next.js
  • [26:12] - Exploring Redwood JS and Django
  • [34:39] - Discussing Web Development Frameworks
  • [35:09] - Exploring Astro and HTMX
  • [36:32] - Debate on JSON and JavaScript
  • [38:19] - The Evolution of Web Design
  • [39:10] - The Whiskey Experiment
  • [40:27] - Snowy Adventures and Commuting Challenges
  • [42:59] - The Quest for the Perfect Electric Car
  • [51:23] - The Joys and Pains of Lawn Mowing
  • [53:01] - TV Shows, Video Games, and Time Management
  • [01:01:04] - Wrapping Up with Netflix and Barbie


Connect with our hosts

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[00:00:05] Robbie: ​ What's going on, everybody? Welcome to Whiskey Web and Whatnot, with your hosts, Robbie the Wagner and Charles William Carpenter the Third.

[00:00:13] Chuck: Well by the looks of the, yeah, no guess whatsoever, you're stuck with us. So feel free to turn it off right now if you're disappointed by that. If you're on the video, you probably think I look like Grandpa Chuck, because the bags under my eyes make me look 400 years old. I haven't slept much lately.

These things happen.

[00:00:32] Robbie: Yeah, the the 4K does not do me favors.

[00:00:35] Chuck: Yeah, it's sort of like upgrade, upgrade, upgrade. Shouldn't have done that.

[00:00:42] Robbie: Well, I want that many pixels. I just want it to like smooth everything out for me. So it's like, like everything looks better than it does in real life.

[00:00:51] Chuck: Yeah, I want the Oprah filter, like nice cameras with the Oprah filter. That's our next upgrade. I do get a lot of questions about equipment and stuff like [00:01:00] that. And so we can talk a little about our setup today. Maybe I think that might be of interest for folks.

[00:01:05] Robbie: Sure.

[00:01:05] Chuck: Cool.

[00:01:07] Robbie: Yeah. Part of our setup for today is this Booker's Whiskey, which I'm gonna attempt to show without breaking it all. It is in a fancy box.

[00:01:18] Chuck: Oh shit, you're doing it from the box. Yeah, I did at least take it out of the box. I didn't try It

[00:01:23] Robbie: Well I had to, you know, the presentation. I want to show everyone.

[00:01:26] Chuck: Yeah, it's a nice one on the shelf. I I mean, they've been doing that since day one, and I really I used to love Mia Goodbooker's because it was 50 bucks, came in some nice box, presentation wise. You can bring it places. It was

like, the be Oh, man is the best deal on the market for a, yeah, for a barrel proof whiskey.

So yeah, let's talk a little about this one. Wax top, still everything too, like good to go. So today we're having a [00:02:00] Booker's small batch, Kentucky straight bourbon whiskey.

[00:02:03] Robbie: Bourbon

[00:02:04] Chuck: bourbon whiskey. I feel like we should say it like that. This is the Storyteller batch. So it is a 2023 release.

They do them more in releases now because everything's popular and whiskey is cool. So this was release 4 of 2023. 127. 8 proof aged 7 years, 2 months, and exactly 29 days. I did


[00:02:29] Robbie: is way too much.

[00:02:30] Chuck: Yeah, I did contact the Beam Distillery to find out exactly how many minutes and seconds, but they hadn't gotten back to me yet before we recorded today.

Mash Bill is 27, er, sorry, 77 percent corn, 30 percent rye, and 10 percent malted barley. This is called the Storyteller Batch Noe, could just turn about anything he talked about into an interesting story. That's a quote from Fred Noe. It's the current master

[00:02:59] Robbie: [00:03:00] was getting some Jimmy Dean vibes there.

[00:03:02] Chuck: Oh! Jimmy Dean's sausage is the

best sausage. So I did have biscuits and gravy with my mom this morning for breakfast. Yeah, I met her for breakfast and she liked that country cooking so I turned her into a place that do homemade biscuits and gravy and not, gosh darn, did I have some of that.

[00:03:19] Robbie: Yeah, you can't, you can't beat it.

[00:03:21] Chuck: Yeah, I'm glad that I got this open without ill effect, so that's a good thing.

Hmm. It's got a nice smell. That was like a slow pour is almost like I swear folks on audio only I didn't step away to the restroom.

[00:03:42] Robbie: I'm smelling some lavender.

[00:03:48] Chuck: We did get floral. Lavender's very specific.

[00:03:53] Robbie: Yeah, I think lavender. My brain wanted to say lilacs, but I don't [00:04:00] even know what lilacs smell like, so

[00:04:01] Chuck: Hmm.

[00:04:02] Robbie: that's wrong.

[00:04:03] Chuck: That's true. My wife tells me the names of the flowers we have in our house. So,

[00:04:07] Robbie: Yeah, maybe some violet actually. I do know violet because it is good in lattes.

[00:04:15] Chuck: Violet, you're turning violet. Okay.

[00:04:20] Robbie: I'm realizing that my nose is congested as well.

[00:04:23] Chuck: Yeah, I have a little of that. I'm getting like a floral and a little cola like in mine. So.

[00:04:29] Robbie: yeah. Like a bath bomb in an RC Cola.

[00:04:35] Chuck: Oof. Got a little heat there, though. I need to warm up the mouth around that one. Oh yeah, feeling that burn all the way down. I'm glad I

[00:04:44] Robbie: Yeah.

[00:04:45] Chuck: meds this morning. Mm

[00:04:48] Robbie: got a, a very intense like, fruity, orangey,

[00:04:53] Chuck: hmm.

[00:04:54] Robbie: like, like a concentrated orange. Like, [00:05:00] Not like a, you know, a mimosa where it's like light, light flavor or like, even orange juice by itself I feel like is not as, like this is potent, like a candy or something.

[00:05:13] Chuck: Yes, okay, so this is where I was going to kind of go with it. More like an orange, like an orange crush soda. So then,

um, because

[00:05:20] Robbie: like fake, like very, very strong, stronger than it could ever be in real life, yeah.

[00:05:25] Chuck: Yeah, yeah. Some of that, like, if you were to drink a little, like, take some orange crush concentrate before they

mixed it with the carbonated, this is kind of that flavor that I think I'm getting.

A little of that, and then some of the floral on the finish. I'm getting, like, a little bitter, a little floral on the finish. Slight kind of woodiness. But

[00:05:49] Robbie: the proof on this? This is

[00:05:50] Chuck: 127. 8. Yeah, that's very hot. So, although with the high corn, that kind of doesn't surprise me with [00:06:00] the the kind of sweet y flavors that we're pulling out of that.

So Yeah.

definitely that with the floral in the finish, so not, not bad.

[00:06:10] Robbie: Yeah. Yeah, it's much different than I thought it would be. In a good way.

[00:06:16] Chuck: Yeah, yeah, softens once your palate is wet and ready for it a little more.

[00:06:21] Robbie: Mmm.

[00:06:22] Chuck: Still hurts the,

[00:06:23] Robbie: Yeah.

[00:06:23] Chuck: the throat. Yeah. But in the mouth, it's a little easier. I don't have salivatory glands in my throat as it goes down.

[00:06:33] Robbie: Oh, sorry. I was disconnecting with my 12 year old self there for a minute.

[00:06:40] Chuck: oh man Jizzle Kids stop listening. This isn't for you. This show Mr. Mr. Wagner has it up a notch in classiness This is why we don't get invited anywhere. They're like, oh my god, I listened to that one. Bunch [00:07:00] of

[00:07:00] Robbie: Hey, we have a lot of fairly clean ones. We have a few that maybe straddled the line,


[00:07:06] Chuck: lying. Oh my gosh. Anyway. Cool. Well, I yeah, I'm gonna rate it as is. Today I finally have my trusty, handy dandy, not notebook dropper. And I am gonna do a couple of drives and

come back around. Yeah, exactly. You know what I was getting at there. I only watch the Steve episodes. I refuse.

If Steve is gone, I'm not in. What was it, like his cousin or something later?


[00:07:34] Robbie: have no idea.

[00:07:35] Chuck: Hmm. Well, they, yeah, there's a late, there's like the OG, um, Blue's Clues. And then, like later, like Steve was out and they like subbed in like his cousin or something. This other guy, I can't remember

[00:07:50] Robbie: Yeah, that's, there's like a couple, we watched like maybe 10 minutes of one at a friend's house. And yeah, there's like two or three real people. And [00:08:00] there's like several dogs, like it's just,

[00:08:03] Chuck: Yeah. It's, it's carnage. Well, see, they recently did that with Blippi. Maybe you're not aware of Blippi yet, but Blippi will be on your radar, which is like this grown man. It's almost like PG, more like G rated Pee wee Herman in a way, like grown man acting like a kid, but he's not making like crass and weird jokes, and like, He is actually teaching kids stuff.

He's just kind of annoying. Very popular with my kids for a little bit. And then like, they've watched some more recently. And they have a, a there's two Blippis, apparently now. And then they also do some animated stuff, just to kind of mix it up. Yeah. So yeah, that's all about that. Let's talk about the whiskey.

Let's see what you think of the whiskey. Yes, the, as I should announce every single time, the highly highly stringent tentacle [00:09:00] scale, except for we offer nine options, zero to eight. Zero being horrible, eight being amazing, four being fine, categorized as bourbon. Maybe we should even say bourbon barrel strength.

We could really

[00:09:12] Robbie: Hmm.

[00:09:13] Chuck: into it here,

[00:09:14] Robbie: Yeah. Well, I'm starting to forget a lot of them that

[00:09:17] Chuck: Yeah. It turns, turns out that goes hand in hand with the more you drink, the more you forget.

[00:09:24] Robbie: yeah,

[00:09:24] Chuck: this.

[00:09:26] Robbie: but I like it. I don't think it's worth the price point. That it is now, like, I feel like we've had cheaper stuff that I like almost as much. However, it does have flavor notes that I haven't tasted in any other bourbon thus far. So, I think with the interestingness in mind, I would probably lean a little higher, but with the price point, I'm going to go back lower.

So I'm going to even it out at a five and a half, I think. [00:10:00] Yeah.

[00:10:02] Chuck: yeah, I have similar thoughts to you, like what we paid to get this. Like if you see it on the shelf and retail is a hundred bucks. So if you're at like a Total Wine or whatever, your ABC store and you see, Yeah. I would say go for it. I say that they have a consistency and a quality that is good and tasty on a regular basis.

This again, now they're in these releases and some other things. So I think it was like 150. That starts to be like, I don't know. You're, you're reaching and trying to punch above your weight, but it does taste good. My. funny inclination is to just do a 5. 1. I'm going to like prices right your ass and just like bid 1 higher than you.

Yeah, 5. 001. But yeah, I don't know. I think it's maybe a 5. 5 for me, give or take. I think it's like, it's good. I'd [00:11:00] come back to it. I, I would, I would recommend it to people. I don't think it's amazing. And you clear the shelves. Like I said, if you, if you see it for a hundred bucks and you get one, I don't think you'll be disappointed.

If it starts to like creep up and you're paying like elevated and or secondary prices, that's the whole thing in the, you know, in the first place why I started buying less of it is prices were creeping up. They changed MSRP from 50 to a hundred right from the distillery and I don't blame them for that, but it did have me like, well, for a hundred bucks, I'm going to look at other stuff and then that's just all.

[00:11:35] Robbie: Yeah, yeah, I think it's, it's very similar to the NFT market, honestly. I'm waiting for the bottom to drop out and every whiskey to just be like, Oh my God, please buy any of this. We made too much.

[00:11:47] Chuck: yeah.

that's the cycle that happened before essentially like whiskey was America's number one spirit in the 60s and 70s. And then like vodka became. The shit [00:12:00] and, you know, martinis and cocktails in that sense. And then the bottom dropped out when they had too much and it got cheap. And then Pappy Van Weeks will happen.

So great Pappy event. So I'm not sure, I don't know who I hate more for this purpose. I love Anthony Bourdain, but he helped make Pappy and Whiskey cool. And then like Finance Bros came in and just started buying out everything that was good. And so, supply and demand, right? I hate them all for that purpose, but Bourdain is, is cool.

Otherwise. Womp,

[00:12:34] Robbie: Yeah, it's, it's tough. I mean, anything that has any amount of FOMO is just going to skyrocket in price. Like, I wish there was something I had enough of that I could generate FOMO for, so that I could become very wealthy. But, I don't have large enough quantities of anything.

[00:12:52] Chuck: Anyway. Anyway?

[00:12:59] Robbie: [00:13:00] Anyway.

[00:13:01] Chuck: Anyway. Alrighty, so technology. I love technology. For those on let's see here too. So for those on the web, speaking of like, or, you know, watching this video, I should show off a little bit of swag.

[00:13:17] Robbie: I was not expecting Under the tie dye shirt.

[00:13:24] Chuck: Yeah, I really just elevated it. You know, I, I meant to I forgot all about that. I actually put that on for recording today and then, alas, here we are.


[00:13:35] Robbie: before they sold out this time?

[00:13:37] Chuck: Exactly. So I got like an email or something, and I was like, yes, I need that. First round, all I had was like XLs. I was

[00:13:47] Robbie: Yeah, I remember, I got the email, I don't know, it was within like the last week. And they they were like, we have 200, like, new ones. And then within like an hour, they were like, we have 39 left or something like [00:14:00] that.

[00:14:00] Chuck: Yeah.

[00:14:01] Robbie: oh my gosh.

[00:14:02] Chuck: People got on it. It was hot. So anyway, if you're not on video, it is Syntax's Century Syntax, their swag store refilled on the webmaster t shirt that looks like an old rock shirt or something like that. And it's got all these cool OG references that most people don't get. And yeah, I snatched it up.

I was like all over it. I need that. It's very

important for me.

[00:14:26] Robbie: shop. It's sold out, but you can buy other stuff.

[00:14:29] Chuck: Yeah. And you can look at the things there. And I have pimped out the the Yeti. The syntax Yeti cup, because it is less than retail of a normal Yeti club cup. So they're taking a loss on it. Are they going to have a good deal? Who, who cares?

You're spending less money. You can get some cool shit. I think you should get that.

[00:14:48] Robbie: Yeah. You know what else you can spend money on? We have swag, we don't ever talk about it on the show,

[00:14:56] Chuck: Right. Whiskey. fund. The purposes [00:15:00] should be obvious and we do have a few things up on there and more to come, so check it out. www. whiskey. fund. And this is a sweatshirt. Couple t shirts, beanie coming, maybe some other stuff. We'll see.

[00:15:16] Robbie: Yeah, yeah, we got samples of the beanies. I haven't gotten mine yet. I think it's supposed to be here maybe tomorrow. So if


[00:15:23] Chuck: time for it to be too warm for me

[00:15:25] Robbie: Yeah, well it just snowed a ton here so I think it's gonna maybe be cold here for a while we'll see

[00:15:33] Chuck: I'll come out and see you in order to wear the beanie

[00:15:37] Robbie: Yeah

[00:15:37] Chuck: Yeah, yeah, it's a good point though. So anyway, take it back to the web. Let's talk

[00:15:42] Robbie: Yeah

[00:15:43] Chuck: on the web

[00:15:45] Robbie: Yeah, so I want to mention, I'm going to go a little out of order here. This has been going around on Twitter. See, when I say things about like, React sucks or whatever, everyone's just like, Oh boo, I [00:16:00] like React and blah blah blah. But like important people say, Hey, React is maybe going down the wrong path.

And everyone's like, Oh my God, you're so right. I'm so glad someone has said this. And I'm like, I've been saying it for years, bro. Like what's going on?

[00:16:14] Chuck: Gotta like Partially say that I didn't fully agree with you until recently is that I mean, smooth.

[00:16:22] Robbie: it's cool to agree with me now

[00:16:25] Chuck: Okay, that's it's actually cool to agree with other people and that's why

I'm actually on that side. Well, no, it's just that I think that some of the complaints that you had, while valid for particular use cases, were more on the side of opinion of things that you don't prefer.

Right. But it didn't mean it make it less effective per se. And some of the things that come now, like, I just don't understand why, like every other release of next requires an entire [00:17:00] rethink of your paradigm, like of your like paradigms of building with that particular framework. Like,

[00:17:07] Robbie: know

[00:17:07] Chuck: Oh, I used to do it this way.

Yeah. Right. Because there's financial incentives. I

[00:17:11] Robbie: nope

[00:17:12] Chuck: be like,

[00:17:13] Robbie: Nope. It is, it is some of that. You know, some of it is to undermine anyone trying to copy what they're doing by changing, moving the ball, like, or moving the goal line, I guess. Whatever the fuck the, the analogy is. But also. People that like React and like over engineering the shit out of stuff want it to change.

They want it to be like, oh, I want, like, I want to go a year, and I want to have wasted an entire year building a thing that we haven't shipped any code to production, and then I want to rewrite it for another year. Because I want it to be the best bleeding edge, most complicated engineered thing I can.

And like, I think they've realized that, and they have a lot of the people, what I was reading in some of the people that are upset about all the React stuff, is like, [00:18:00] They have a lot of the people that used to work on React working for them, and they use like, unpublished canary Reacts, and like, do a bunch of crazy shit, and like, All of that is so that they can feel the same way of, Oh, I engineered this so hard and I love it and like, Let's get every, let's make that 0.

1 milliseconds faster. Everyone will love writing 16 more hooks so that we can do this tiny bit faster. Like,

[00:18:27] Chuck: I wonder if we could get any employees or anyone behind the scenes to, like, come on anonymously and admit that, you know, like, figure out some

security things around it or something.

[00:18:39] Robbie: that it's conscious.

[00:18:41] Chuck: Right, right. You think that, like, smart people are being enabled to really just go fucking crazy

[00:18:50] Robbie: Yeah, if you hire 10 really smart people who love overengineering, guess what you're going to get? Like,

[00:18:57] Chuck: Yeah, yeah. And from a product [00:19:00] perspective, you're just like, go at it. Go nuts. I don't know. Yeah. Because like, what was it? The react hasn't officially released anything since like 2022 or something like

a react 18 was 2022 or something like that. Yeah. So, you know, year and a half. But new features coming because triangle company unlocked some canary features that aren't actually stable and official.

I don't know. All I can say is that. And I have sung the praises of Next in the past, so let's, you know, let's just say there, like, I'm not a, I'm not a Robbie, I'm not a hater coming out hatin

[00:19:39] Robbie: Nope, let me, let me clarify, hold that thought.

[00:19:43] Chuck: mkay. We

[00:19:44] Robbie: like Next, and I like Vercel, and I like most of everything they're doing. I just, that's how I feel about people choosing any React framework, pretty much, but continue.

[00:19:55] Chuck: money, so, you know, there is something to be said for that, like, [00:20:00] aspects you don't like, you still are, I mean You, you still tried the product, embraced it, gave them money, moved your shit there, right? Like, so, something to be said for that. There's definitely still a lot of positives. Like, you know, caveat to that.

But, you know, the things I liked about Next were like, everything isn't a component and something's just like By how you organize it and like our auto magic and you can make decisions by routes about static and incremental static and server rendered things as you need and client like, like I felt like I had a lot of power and options.

And I feel like where it's gone now, like there's a reduction in that power and options to a degree, like, yes, I guess you can restructure things and do some of it the same, but like this whole use, use [00:21:00] client thing, and you can have a server rendered. Outer component and then inner functions and components that are used client.

And like you get in this strange mental model where like, Oh my gosh. And let's not even go into the whole. Everything is called page and layout as they're nested in the app directories. So like, didn't we go through this argument where like, Oh named files are better, that's why you shouldn't have the root of everything

be indexed because it's a fucking nightmare to like. Right, like, oh, page is you have an error on page. Which fucking page? I don't know.

[00:21:40] Robbie: Page. js, check it out. Yeah.

Well, I think, I think some of it, like, it's, they, it unlocks more if you're willing to do. 100 times more work. Like they've added more [00:22:00] hooks, more things you can call more shit that does shit cool, whatever.

[00:22:04] Chuck: shit

[00:22:05] Robbie: Who needs any of that? You want it to be like, at the end of the day we're writing HTML and we want certain little parts of it to update.

Sometimes that's, that's what we're doing. Like we don't need to be this granular, we don't need to do database queries right. From our JavaScript like. We just need it to be as simple as possible to track what's updating and update the DOM. That's the root that everyone, I think, would agree wants to solve.

So why do we need all these extra hooks and, like, other things to do all of that? Like, that's the problem is, like, they think we want all of these teeny tiny building blocks. And it's becoming even less of a meta framework and just becoming React Extended, which isn't a framework, and like, requires you to still build your own meta framework on top, which a lot of places love doing and will spend two years doing and then throw it all out and then spend two more [00:23:00] years doing it again and like, if you're writing your own framework, stop right now.

It is a waste of time. Don't do it. Like, yeah, that's, I don't know where I was going, but. You know, my feelings.

[00:23:13] Chuck: End rant. Yeah. Exactly. I, I, I don't know. It's not a great experience, especially if you're trying to build quickly. So I spent a couple of weeks, spent a, yeah, I've spent, A few weeks trying to build quickly on a couple of different things and everything kind of being bleeding edge and not being very, And maybe it's a skill issue.

So whatever, you can say that, fuck off.

[00:23:39] Robbie: Skill issue.

[00:23:40] Chuck: Skill issue. Yeah, you know, maybe someone's smarter than me at the absolute bleeding edge things. I don't think that even someone Like, let's say someone's been developing for 10 years in another framework, Angular, whatever. And they go where they go and they like come over to this.[00:24:00]

They're not bad because they don't understand this paradigm out of the box. Right? Like they just, and they're not productive out of the box. So anybody who's like jumped on server components. That literally looked at it last week and not like, Oh, I've been following. I'm a react, a proponent and I follow all their RFPs.

I doubt they do that. But and, and I understand this burgeoning feature. So when it was ready, I was ready and all of that thing. Like, let's just say that's not the case that I'm discussing because I don't think that's normal.

And if

you've been.

[00:24:35] Robbie: anyone does that.

[00:24:36] Chuck: Yeah, yeah, even if you've been building Next apps for years, as I have and gone through quite a few iterations of it, coming to this, kind of shatters What made you productive originally?

That's what I say. I say like what made it nice and easy for me, you know, two, three versions ago is almost gone. Like [00:25:00] they, there was some nice value ads and I think 12 or 13, even like, you know, the way they manage middleware. I love API routes. I just like all of those things were like super nice. Like you talk about like I want to.

Talk to a database and do queries and whatever else. Great API routes were a nice place for that. And you drop an ORM in there

and there's a good,

[00:25:22] Robbie: a good idea.

[00:25:23] Chuck: yeah, separation of concerns. I love a separation of concerns. Let's do that. The stuff that's happening now is like, it's just the wild west. I don't know why I need that.

And I feel like, so I was so unhappy. Working with that over a couple of weeks, I've been using also was trying to like write an API using some bleeding edge framework and bun and some other things there. And there's a lot of things I did like about it, but the downsides were like that, it just all wasn't ready yet.

You know, it just felt not ready. So like, so doing all of [00:26:00] those things, I'm coming to a point here anyway, and then like shifting to system back to some things that, Oh, these are all things I understand and know. So I started working in Redwood JS full stack web framework. So I just like spent a weekend like messing with that and messing again with Django and just being like web framework.

So many batteries included love this. They were both just so fun to go through the tutorials. And, So I just completely pivoted. It was like, Oh, this is more fun and it all makes sense and it is all battle tested stuff. Okay, fuck it. that's

[00:26:41] Robbie: Yeah. Well, I think that's the problem is a lot of people want it to be magic. And like battle tested and stable and they want to be able to like just write features But a lot of other people Really just want to over engineer stuff and like that [00:27:00] crowd seems to be getting bigger and bigger or at least louder and louder so like react and Next.

js are trying to cater to that crowd and they just like You know put out all the lowest level stuff and it's like well You All of coding, you know, I guess back, you know, we started with assembly or whatever and then like a little bit of C on top of that and like, that's kind of low level and that's kind of what we're, we've gone back to is like, no batteries included, do it all yourself, figure it all out.

And I think that's like at our detriment, like, it's just like, you know, if you had, uh, what's a good analogy? Like a food processor and then everybody was like, well, you know, what's really cool using a knife like Like that's it's it takes way more time and but like I can be so precise with it I just I got to use a knife like But a food processor is fast and consistent and easy and you press one button and [00:28:00] it's done.

And that's how your code should be. Like, we should use these building blocks and stand on the shoulders of the people that came before us to make better shit instead of being like, well, I think I'm a better engineer than like, DHH or somebody and like, well, I can do it way better than they could ever do.

And like, no, you fucking can't like be real with yourself. There's like, you know, maybe a hundred people in the entire world that can go, yeah, I'm going to build my own framework and optimize a shit out of it. And it's going to actually be better than a framework that a bunch of people who wrote frameworks made.

So yes, Redwood is a great choice. I think it's very undervalued. I think it has a lot of the same ideals that Ember has. And like, getting people on those ideals is important. Whether they use Ember or Redwood or anything. Rails is pretty opinionated. Like, anything that's like, believes in generators and like, [00:29:00] you know, conventions.

And like, it just, you do things a certain way. Instead of, do it how you want. Install all your own stuff. Like,

[00:29:07] Chuck: You know what I love about generators? That's a whole nice thing. So yeah, I mean, so for the folks at home or for the folk. person listening currently. Yeah. So Ember is a front end framework, but also very opinionated, amazing, like state management layer and all kinds of things there too. Adapters. I was reminded of adapters recently.

I was like, Oh, doctors were so nice. That's true. Things like that are like really helpful. But Redwood is full stack, so it spins up a node server for you. It is GraphQL out of the box, Prisma ORM, you know, love it or hate it. Or having an ORM is a nice thing. You can spin up some auth. Right out of the box and you can just do your local off there and whatever else generators are so nice because they also spin up your test case your basic [00:30:00] test and test case there for you.

So like don't forget tests tester included their first class citizen love that stuff included included in both super important things.


[00:30:12] Robbie: work? Does it, is it like a file based or is it they're like a big file where you define everything?

[00:30:18] Chuck: It's more like Ember routing, actually. So there's a routes file and you drop in your, it's really easy to off protect your routes though. So like nice things there. Yeah, the ergonomics of Redwood are really good. I think that, you know, sometimes it's marketing and positioning has some things to do with it and it's not doing all the bleeding edge things.

I think you'd respect that they get requests for some of these bleeding edge things, and they just. Deeply considerate and RFPs and all of that kind of thing. So the process is there. And so it's kind of like, never say never that you'll get some of these other bits, but you know, it's going to take some vetting from like bun comes out with their version 1.

0 and, and somebody is [00:31:00] like, ah, should we support bun or something else? And they're like. Well, maybe let's look at that. Let's take some time here. What are the implications of it? Let's make sure that it has you know Check these five check boxes done and and then go through a process before we like jump ship immediately.

So they use yarn Workspace management there Yeah, it's it's No, they don't even do that yet. And again, that's another thing that was like, consider this make sure that there's some feature parody before we actually, and, and there's true benefits and not just preferences.

[00:31:35] Robbie: Yeah, but I like the blessed path like that because, you know, if you used PMPM day one when it came out and it didn't work and you're like, hey, it doesn't work. They'd be like, well, you're supposed to use yarn. That's what we say.


[00:31:49] Chuck: And that is what they say.

[00:31:51] Robbie: it's not like, you know, things that are unopinionated and try to give you tiny building blocks have to be compatible with everything.

And like,

[00:31:57] Chuck: Yeah.

[00:31:58] Robbie: that's, that's a [00:32:00] nightmare.

[00:32:00] Chuck: And ultimately, so I think it's twofold. I think there's one, I think about, you know, Dax trolling people around like, listen, man, you have zero users who fucking cares which of these things you pick. Honestly, like you can fight your

fight until you have users that is like a proven use case and reason why you need this laundry list of things like That's one aspect of it.

So I have no users. What's the point? And then what I would need to do is build a thing as quickly as possible and feel like that it will stand up on its own. You know, node is known. Great. I'm, I'm I'm going to deploy a node app. We know how to do that. There's an AWS story around that. I can use SST.

dev to do it. And, like, I tried to use SST to deploy a BUN service. I tried to, like, wedge it into a Lambda. I tried to wedge [00:33:00] it into a service. And guess what? You know, bleeding edge stuff doesn't work across the board. It has a very specific Tested use case. And if you're not matching that, which is like in the docs, a to do app or whatever else it is, well, that's not reality for most of us.

So we're dependent on trying to build a real thing. We should use things that have already shown they can build the real thing.

[00:33:23] Robbie: Yeah.

[00:33:24] Chuck: than the real thing.

[00:33:25] Robbie: Yeah. I mean, it's, it's similar to how, you know, any JavaScript developer or modern web developer, I guess, would say like, Oh. I can't use Java. Java is not cool. It's old. Well, it's very reliable and everything runs on Java. Like, you know, nobody thinks about stability or like actually shipping software.

They think about how can I be the coolest engineer right now? And like, that's fun, especially for a side project, definitely use the most bleeding edge thing you can for your side project to [00:34:00] learn it and experience it. But like, if you have a team of more than a couple and you want to have some standards and like ship stuff regularly,

[00:34:08] Chuck: Yeah.

[00:34:09] Robbie: use something that's been shipping battle tested production code for like a decade.

[00:34:14] Chuck: Yeah. Yeah. That's the thing is that I don't. I don't believe that people are wrong when they're, okay, Java sucks because ABC, like ABC is probably true in particular circumstances, but are you, are you in those circumstances? Does that apply to you? Can we all build it? I mean, you know, to a degree, can we use WordPress and build some of the things we build?

Absolutely. We could. There's no doubt about it. Right? Like the whiskey. fm can be built in WordPress if we so choose. Right. We, you, we use next JS actually not 14 cause fuck that.


[00:34:54] Robbie: latest because you can still use either,

you don't have to use

[00:34:58] Chuck: or

[00:34:58] Robbie: the next one.[00:35:00]

[00:35:00] Chuck: yeah. Okay. Right. So, which we will not do.

[00:35:04] Robbie: No. It's going to be Astro then.

[00:35:07] Chuck: Definitely should be Astro. Speaking of Astro, there's like the there's some interesting stacks that have come out around Astro. So there's Astro obviously has been around now for a little bit, not like forever. It's still kind of new, but does all kinds of cool things. The thing is, is it came out as more of like a, Oh, it's another Gatsby or Jekyll, but turns out it's a web framework that can do way more shit.

Then it has led on to, and that islands is actually super flexible plugins and giving you a whole bunch. So, you know, more on that to come, I guess. But I saw this thing the other day, it was like the host and there's a couple of different ones. There's like the aha stack, was like Astro HTMX and something else, which

[00:35:51] Robbie: Hmm. I'm out. No HTMX.

[00:35:54] Chuck: no HTMX.

[00:35:55] Robbie: news.

[00:35:56] Chuck: Yeah, we really should have Carson on actually. I think that would [00:36:00] be a fun one. Although look into that.

[00:36:01] Robbie: the creator?

[00:36:02] Chuck: Yeah, that's the dude

[00:36:04] Robbie: Hmm.

[00:36:05] Chuck: in Montana who,

[00:36:07] Robbie: Yeah, I mean, I think it's, I'm always, you know, happy to discuss it and talk to them. But I, I, don't know if it's just that they've leaned into the meme so hard, or just that I also think that it's just all totally wrong. Like, the couple of minutes I've looked at how it works, I'm like, no, I don't want that.

[00:36:25] Chuck: I'm putting two drops of water in my bookers. I'm going to see how that changes things. Okay. Right. Because I know that you're a purist in the sense of like inherently you want JSON from your APIs, right? You want a JSON response that gets parsed

[00:36:42] Robbie: Well, I also want my JavaScript in my JavaScript. It's fine to write JavaScript functions and, like, have an onclick.

[00:36:51] Chuck: Mm hmm.

[00:36:51] Robbie: don't, like, h htmx is more like, It's like a tailwind for API calls and complex shit in your html.

[00:36:59] Chuck: [00:37:00] Your directives on HTML, it does

[00:37:02] Robbie: Yeah.

[00:37:02] Chuck: but yeah, those click in too. Right.

[00:37:06] Robbie: Yeah.

[00:37:06] Chuck: those directives to do a thing as, so your event listeners are sort of offloaded and you don't love that.

[00:37:11] Robbie: Yeah. And it's, it's sort of similar. To like, how Vue 2 did it, I think. Where like, they kind of had directive y thingies. I don't know how to describe them, but like, Yeah, it just feels weird, like, and I guess

Ember, Technically, Like, the way Ember does it is, Also not vanilla, like, to be fair. But, I like that the modifiers are like, click, function.

It just feels like, On click, Click.

[00:37:44] Chuck: H H X. I think they are. I forget what they are. They're like H X dash something or something

[00:37:50] Robbie: Yeah, it's really just sugar. I think it would even work, especially in modern Ember where like you have one file with like [00:38:00] your JavaScript and HTML and stuff, this, which I don't love either, but it does solve some problems. And like, I think then you could just refer to the function. You don't have to do this, like on modifier thing and like hook into this context and all of that stuff.

It's just like the function was right here.

[00:38:16] Chuck: Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah. The blending of all these things. Now, as like an OG proponent of a separation of concerns, like I really hated having my JavaScript bled into my HTML, my CSS bled into my HTML, right? Like there's all those kinds of things that have kind of started to creep back in. But I am, I find, I find myself More curious.

I guess it's just curious,

[00:38:47] Robbie: I'm becoming open to it, but I that used to be the first thing I would google every time I tried a new framework How do I split this into three files for the styles the javascript?

[00:38:58] Chuck: right.

[00:38:59] Robbie: usually do [00:39:00] it, but it was like not blessed path so like it would usually break later, but

[00:39:04] Chuck: Hmm.

[00:39:05] Robbie: it's

[00:39:08] Chuck: Just want to say that. I put a couple of drops in my bookers, except in your throat.

[00:39:14] Robbie: Yeah, I will I'll have to try that later on.

[00:39:19] Chuck: Yeah. If only you were home, where you had access to modern conveniences.

[00:39:23] Robbie: Well, I'm not gonna stop right now and go get, I have a spray bottle, but that we spray the dogs with I could go But

[00:39:31] Chuck: do it. No, I do it.

[00:39:32] Robbie: No, it's old very old

[00:39:34] Chuck: That's better actually. So this is like distilled water. So I used, now I just use like the reverse osmosis water, but I used to like, so you do your own distilled water but I just like fill up a gallon let it sit for a week and then you can use that because sediment has settled and whatever else so it's like really base.

Now I just reverse osmosis fill this thing. I'm sure there are whiskey purists

[00:39:58] Robbie: like basically the [00:40:00] same

[00:40:00] Chuck: Yeah, that's how I take it. I'm sure purists will feel differently, but I was born in Kentucky, so I can do what I want. I actually made the rules. Fuck you. That's what I say to some people. The more I drink, the more I occur. So,

[00:40:22] Robbie: enough tech ranting I think,

[00:40:24] Chuck: we've exhausted, that topic. Exactly. I

[00:40:26] Robbie: Yeah.

[00:40:27] Chuck: I, what is snow?

[00:40:30] Robbie: Yeah, so

[00:40:31] Chuck: I've heard of this.

[00:40:32] Robbie: it hasn't snowed here or I mean you get the occasional dusting but like we haven't gotten a real snow in years. So like we bought this house and the guy was trying to sell us the snowblower with the house and I was like fuck that. I don't need a snowblower. Why when will it ever

snow again?

[00:40:47] Chuck: it there if you want, fucker.

[00:40:48] Robbie: Yeah, I think he sold it to someone on like Facebook Marketplace for like. 50 bucks or like I should have probably just bought it because it was cheap. But yeah, so it snowed and like [00:41:00] even the weather people were like, oh, yeah it's gonna snow for like two hours We're gonna maybe get like an inch or something And then it it's proceeded to snow from like we're like we woke up in the morning No snow was called for and there was already like half an inch on the ground We're like, oh that's weird.

Like this is supposed to snow for like two hours later And then it snowed that entire day For like, it, it wasn't a ton of accumulation, but it was constant and it was just like, so we got probably like five-ish inches by the time it was done.


[00:41:34] Chuck: give or take?

[00:41:35] Robbie: yeah.

[00:41:36] Chuck: I mean, according to your wife, I think, right?

[00:41:39] Robbie: Yeah. Yes. That she is a weather expert, so she would know

[00:41:45] Chuck: Definitely what I meant.

[00:41:47] Robbie: Just try to, to circle it back around there for you.

[00:41:50] Chuck: You.

[00:41:51] Robbie: But yeah, so I, I didn't have a snowblower. We were shoveling it all by hand. It was not fun, [00:42:00] but Finn had a good time, so he sledded for the first time and loved it, and so we did a lot of that, we made a tiny snowman. It was like too powdery to make a snowman. So, we like, I waited until the next day when there was like a little bit of melted underneath. And like, kinda pushed it all to make it icy. It's like this melted blob. It is not great looking. But we do have one. So, that's been fun.

[00:42:28] Chuck: yeah, some pluses there. Yeah, we actually, once a year, go up north. Like Sometimes we've spent a weekend, sometimes we just drive up like in the morning, spend, you know, a few hours and then drive back down and come back to the sun. Yeah, it's kind of a, I guess that's one benefit of Arizona is getting to live in the desert and have a little bit of snow a few hours away.

[00:42:57] Robbie: Yeah. Yeah, [00:43:00] it's I just thought we were gonna have to travel for snow because like, It never snows here anymore, but yeah, hopefully this is, there will be more of this to come. It is supposed to snow again in a couple of days. So we'll see if that happens. It's like the same of where it says like two hours of like inch or two.

And so it'll probably snow all day again. We'll see.

[00:43:27] Chuck: Luckily, you've got a good commute, so. actually, you do have a real commute,

[00:43:32] Robbie: I do have a

real commute, but I.

[00:43:33] Chuck: when you have a real commute? And I know the city kind of shuts down, a couple inches of snow shuts down, because

[00:43:40] Robbie: Well, I, I'm not attempting to commute. I probably, so the way Amazon does RTO is it's a very dumb system. Like if you have a holiday or PTO or any approved reason to not be there, it doesn't count as you were there. It just, they're like, we have three [00:44:00] weeks, like out of the last eight weeks, you have to have been there five, five of the last eight.

So it's like that allows for holidays and PTO and stuff theoretically. But the system really breaks down if you take a lot of PTO in a row or you took some PTO and then there's a bunch of snow or other reasons you can't go in and like, yeah, they should have a way to like track what it actually is. But anyway, because you have to be there three days out of the week for that week to count, and one of our days in the office was a holiday, I already wasn't going to get this week counted.

So then with the snow on Tuesday, I'm like, I'm definitely not going to go in now with like one day of like,

[00:44:41] Chuck: Just hell with all of it.

[00:44:42] Robbie: yeah. So no, I haven't gone in, but yeah, I have my dad's old BMW and it will not like the snow. So,

I'm not gonna, Yeah, mm hmm.

[00:44:52] Chuck: so that's not going to be good on snow. All wheel drives, where's that, buddy? All wheel [00:45:00] drive.

[00:45:00] Robbie: I wish that

[00:45:01] Chuck: yeah,

[00:45:03] Robbie: we had kept our Rivian pre order. Because Like I see a lot of people driving the SUVs around and I'm like, that looks like a legit SUV size and while it might not

[00:45:14] Chuck: it was.

[00:45:14] Robbie: SUV, it would have been electric. So

[00:45:17] Chuck: And the third row is actually pretty roomy, like, yeah, it was a, it was a good would have been a good call for you. It

[00:45:25] Robbie: yeah.

[00:45:25] Chuck: wasn't a great fit for me, but definitely would have worked for you, Rivians.

[00:45:30] Robbie: Yeah. Well, I'm on the waiting list, waiting list for the first electric Range Rover. So stay tuned.

[00:45:40] Chuck: Do those have third rows or no?

[00:45:43] Robbie: Seen what the possible configurations will be, because like, they have the long wheelbase, where you get more space in each row, and they have like, like, are they going to have all the same options like that, or is it going to be kind of like, this is our first [00:46:00] electric car, this is, you get what you get, so

[00:46:03] Chuck: the latter, but who


[00:46:05] Robbie: I think so too, but hopefully they'll pick the right options to where it's roomy enough that like, it makes sense for us, we'll see.

[00:46:13] Chuck: Are you open to a Volvo? Because that Volvo

90 version that's hybrid is actually pretty

sweet looking. It's the bigger, it's a hybrid. It's got like a third row. I think it has like 35 mile range on

[00:46:29] Robbie: Hmm.

[00:46:30] Chuck: electric. So most of the time it's an electric car for you. it's not bad. And then

[00:46:36] Robbie: Yeah.

[00:46:37] Chuck: in a pinch, kick it over.

You're good to go. Yeah.

[00:46:42] Robbie: consider that. I've been looking at a ton of different options because I've been hating driving my dad's car. So I looked at like, What's the cheapest electric car you can get? And if anyone's looking, you can get a Kia something for like 12 grand and it's range [00:47:00] is like 90 miles. So it will work for commuting, but you gotta make sure you charge it every day because like, you're gonna get stuck.

And I don't love that. I want it to be like, a little more range to where I can like, think about, you know, missing a day of charging. Charge it every couple days or whatever.


[00:47:20] Chuck: yeah, options. I'm just saying, like, yeah, Hyundai, Kia, like, they all kind of have a thing.

[00:47:27] Robbie: Yeah.

[00:47:27] Chuck: on what you want.

[00:47:28] Robbie: I think the thing that, ironically, the thing that like, has the best Range for the cheapest price is an older BMW electric. They've been doing something with them to like, upgrade their batteries or something.

[00:47:42] Chuck: okay.

[00:47:43] Robbie: So they get

like, yeah, i3,


[00:47:46] Chuck: Yeah.

[00:47:47] Robbie: Yeah, so I don't love the look, but like, if it drives okay, and it has good range, like, I'm,

[00:47:55] Chuck: It

[00:47:55] Robbie: don't make enough money anymore to like, have a nice car that

[00:47:59] Chuck: [00:48:00] Yeah, it should reflect your current standards as a middle class

white fellow.

[00:48:04] Robbie: work. Hehehehehehehehehehe

[00:48:08] Chuck: No one can see you below shoulders, but if you stood up they'd know that you don't like to work. And you know, what you're, you know,

[00:48:17] Robbie: Uh,

[00:48:18] Chuck: willing to settle for is a BMW.

Let's just say that too.

[00:48:23] Robbie: like 20 grand or something like

[00:48:26] Chuck: well, you know,

people are starving in this country.

[00:48:28] Robbie: car you could get You're right

[00:48:30] Chuck: You're really just not connected to the people. Okay, but maybe our audience. Okay, let's, let's take it back. It's not that fucking serious.

[00:48:39] Robbie: Yeah

[00:48:40] Chuck: is ugly. It looks like a roller skate, but everyone that I know that has had or has one loves that car.

Like they,

[00:48:48] Robbie: I've, I rented

one when I went to California and I, I liked it fine

[00:48:53] Chuck: Good for you. You were never cool. So why even try? No. [00:49:00] You

[00:49:00] Robbie: I was cool for a couple minutes, so I did try, but.

[00:49:03] Chuck: went on a vacation and rented an i3. I think we're just, I think we've settled that


[00:49:09] Robbie: before or no. Okay. Context. You could, I guess Tesla existed still. Tesla's been around a long time, but they haven't been as pervasive.

[00:49:18] Chuck: they had the Roadster is like 2007, 2008,

[00:49:22] Robbie: they were all like very expensive cars for a while. And

[00:49:27] Chuck: Yeah.

[00:49:27] Robbie: during that time, still, I think like. It was probably 2016? No, I guess 2017. Or 18.

[00:49:38] Chuck: Yeah.

[00:49:39] Robbie: I feel like, you know, there wasn't a Model 3 yet, I don't think. And like, whatever. So I wanted to rent an electric car because I was going out to work at Netflix's offices.

And they have free electric car charging in the parking lot. So I was like, why would I not do that? The funny thing was I, like, I don't know if all i3s [00:50:00] are like this, but like, this one had like a tiny reserve gas tank, too. And it would hold like, three gallons.

[00:50:09] Chuck: Still, like, if you get trapped and you can get that last mile, that's nice.

[00:50:14] Robbie: Yeah, so I had to like, I had to go figure out how to fill it up at like a 400 a gallon gas station in California. So I was like, what the fuck is this? Yeah.


[00:50:26] Chuck: no idea. Huh? Today I learned that those are quasi hybrids. I thought they were a hundred percent elect,

[00:50:32] Robbie: I think, I think they usually are. I think it was like a certain ones where people were scared of full electric. You could get like the tiny little. It's probably, it's probably just like a, you know, one of those rip cord like generators that you would run in your garage,

[00:50:47] Chuck: right? Yeah. You actually had to get out and pull like an old like. Yeah, like an old lawnmower. I had a minibike as a kid that [00:51:00] it kind of looked like a little motorcycle and But you had to pull the cord. That was the less, the least cool thing about it. So it didn't look like a moped, didn't have like an electric start.

You actually had to pull the cord to get it started, but then everything else kind of looked like a little motorcycle. So I was like, eh, worth it. Nobody sees me do this. It's fine. I was like 12, so.

[00:51:23] Robbie: yeah. I used to have a push mower that the, the pole thing was like, wouldn't work until you pulled it like 50 in a row.

[00:51:31] Chuck: Oh, yeah,

yeah, you had to like.

put your foot on it and you're like,

[00:51:34] Robbie: your arm would be like falling out of the socket by the time it gets going and then you're like, all right, I guess I gotta mow now.

[00:51:40] Chuck: yeah, yeah. But you also, I think you had to like pull the like lever thing, right?

[00:51:47] Robbie: Oh, right. Yeah, you have to

[00:51:48] Chuck: to like

[00:51:49] Robbie: it doesn't safety stop. Yeah.

[00:51:51] Chuck: yeah, yeah, so you had to like do that and pull with the other arm and there's this whole like, ah, ah,


[00:51:57] Robbie: kids these days have their electric mower and they [00:52:00] hit go on it. Like,

[00:52:03] Chuck: Yeah, I guess. Like, do

[00:52:05] Robbie: well, that that's what I have at the


[00:52:07] Chuck: Yeah. Wait, there's, there's lawn at the office? Hmm.

[00:52:12] Robbie: Just enough for like a tiny mower. So I, I had the electric weed eater with like, there was this thing you could put the weed eater down in that had wheels. So it was like the

[00:52:23] Chuck: Uh, yes.

[00:52:25] Robbie: it looks like you're like vacuuming the yard. You look like a fucking idiot. But I got to like actual mower.

Cause it does it in like two seconds.

[00:52:33] Chuck: Right, yeah. So, at the end of the day, it's kinda worth it.

[00:52:37] Robbie: Yeah.

[00:52:38] Chuck: I'm gonna come collect that before we sell it. You know.


have the mower.

[00:52:42] Robbie: plane with you

[00:52:43] Chuck: Yep, taking this mower. I'm gonna have a mower case. I'll trade you a banjo for it.

[00:52:48] Robbie: Alright, try to fit it back in the banjo case.

[00:52:51] Chuck: Yeah, exactly. I'll just leave the banjo sans case with you.

And try to put a lawnmower in there. Like, wraps

up. [00:53:00] Uh,

[00:53:00] Robbie: watching? Anything fun? I've been watching so many shows all the time.

[00:53:04] Chuck: good for you. That you have a life. That you get to do that. I So the only thing that we started watching together, my wife and I, was We watched season one of The Bear. And was like really

jazzed about season two Yeah, it's very intense. So

[00:53:24] Robbie: were very intense and I

[00:53:25] Chuck: and it's a little crazy, the whole thing. Yeah. I don't know. I enjoyed it.

But so. And then I told her, yeah, it's good. You should watch it with me. I don't want to, whatever her friends tell her to watch it. And so she's interested now. And so we've been rewatching season one of the bear. And then I either code more or I play some Zelda. I'm really trying to

build up my. Tears of the Kingdom, man. I'm really trying to, [00:54:00] like, work on some of my armor and stuff so I can fight these things. I think they're called, like, Glee locks or whatever. They're basically like three headed dragons

[00:54:07] Robbie: Oh man, in the

[00:54:12] Chuck: And Yeah, so,

[00:54:16] Robbie: first one, I'm blanking on the name, Breath of the Wild, those things like the spinny laser face things with all the arms, like,

where if they laser you, you die instantly,

[00:54:31] Chuck: those are all mechanical things, yeah, those things are, those aren't in this one. But there's a lot of other stuff that's like, I'm sure they are, but I haven't fought one of those

yet. Uh,

[00:54:40] Robbie: never, I think maybe I once killed one of those things.

[00:54:44] Chuck: I think you mostly avoided those things, right, like, those were like the murder everything Skynet kind of things.

[00:54:51] Robbie: yeah,

[00:54:52] Chuck: I've played a lot of this game without encountering even one, but like, yeah, this There also aren't [00:55:00] like 74 Ganons. I feel like in Breath of the Wild I fought like 40 versions of Ganon.

[00:55:06] Robbie: need normal Ganon, Calamity Ganon, Old School Ganon, Ganony Ganon,

[00:55:13] Chuck: in law Ganon's ex wife. Yeah I've heard of Ganon Ganon. Yeah, yeah. So there's all of those. There aren't all of those. There's, like, the Dragon King, which I think is, like, supposed to be OG Ganon. Like, Ganon spawned from this thing, or whatever. But I've been avoiding some of

[00:55:33] Robbie: The origins of Ganon.

[00:55:34] Chuck: Yeah. I've been avoiding a bunch of the main quest stuff.

[00:55:38] Robbie: Oh, I never do the main quest.

[00:55:41] Chuck: well,

[00:55:42] Robbie: know why. I'm not a completionist. I only play the parts of the game that I enjoy. And then like, the parts that require work or like, I'm just like, nah, I don't need

[00:55:53] Chuck: work. But I'm not ready for it to be done. I think that's what it is. It's sort of like Yeah, I [00:56:00] mean, everything requires, or every, like, side quest, whatever, like, everything has, like, oh, and I, I don't even have the Master Sword yet,

[00:56:07] Robbie: Maybe it's

[00:56:08] Chuck: before,

[00:56:08] Robbie: like, it feels more self directed. It's not like, you go do the main quest. It's just like. You know, I don't know. It feels more fun to do the sidequests.

[00:56:17] Chuck: do feel a little, like, Skyrim inspired, like, I just want to do so much with my character first, before I do

[00:56:23] Robbie: Yeah. Yeah, well, I was talking to Caitlin yesterday? I don't know. Sometime.

About, well About, Stopping watching so many shows and playing games again. So I'm probably going to start playing some games soon. Cause

[00:56:41] Chuck: nice,

[00:56:42] Robbie: watching shows I don't give a shit about. Cause I'm just like, I want to find something new to watch, you know?

[00:56:47] Chuck: bright.

[00:56:48] Robbie: obscure shit that like, maybe is good. And actually they turn out to be good, but then there'll be like four seasons and I have to watch all four seasons.

[00:56:55] Chuck: Yeah. So then it's like, well, what the hell, where are you going to spend your time? You know, like, right. We [00:57:00] have finite time and where are you going to spend it? Yeah. Well, basically Sarah has been watching one of those like married at first sight, I think is the one she's watching now. It's another one. I don't know.

There's some version of the same thing. 50 times over, blah, blah, blah, blah. Married. Yeah. Married at first sight is the one now. It's been happening a lot in the background for me, so then I'll just do other things. I'm like, oh,

[00:57:28] Robbie: time to code.

[00:57:29] Chuck: It really is.

[00:57:31] Robbie: Yeah.

[00:57:32] Chuck: great to go down that path.

[00:57:34] Robbie: Yeah, a show that was very good that I finished recently was bodies. Have you seen bodies?

[00:57:39] Chuck: I haven't.

[00:57:41] Robbie: The premise is like,

[00:57:43] Chuck: Hmm.

[00:57:45] Robbie: This, like, guy that this guy that's been shot and dies that, like, materializes and falls from the sky in, like, four different time periods. So like, it starts in, like, [00:58:00] 1890 and then there's, like, a 1941.

And this is not a spoiler because all this happens in, like, the first ten minutes, so. And then it's, like, the same person dead falling from the sky in all these different time periods and they're having to figure out why. That's happening and like how to get it to stop happening. And it's like, it's a crazy, like my mind still has like questions about how it works because I'm like, you know, that's that like anything to do with space and time just like, doesn't make sense to me.

I'm just like, I don't, that, that

[00:58:31] Chuck: Quantum leap wasn't for you.

[00:58:32] Robbie: Yeah. I guess you have to suspend disbelief there and just be like, you know, just enjoy the show and not care about like how it worked.

[00:58:42] Chuck: right. Also, I think we're supposed to not I don't like Stephen Hawking anymore, right? Or something? Wasn't that a

[00:58:50] Robbie: What?

[00:58:51] Chuck: for a minute? Stephen Hawking was on the Epstein flight. Yeah, the flight logs or something for Epstein [00:59:00] Island. And, I, I don't know.

[00:59:04] Robbie: How does that even work?

[00:59:06] Chuck: Well when you fly planes, you are required to create flight logs, which include

the passenger manifest.

[00:59:16] Robbie: be like a rapist?

[00:59:19] Chuck: Doesn't he always have to get raped? I don't


[00:59:23] Robbie: I think everyone implicitly had consent.

[00:59:27] Chuck: Right, right. Well, if he went to Epstein Island and there were young girls under the influence

of wealth and power,

[00:59:36] Robbie: the organization


[00:59:38] Chuck: right? Yeah,


[00:59:40] Robbie: I yeah.

[00:59:41] Chuck: yeah, I don't know. So anyway, that's a tangent. But, What service does that stream on? If you're gonna mention

[00:59:50] Robbie: Oh, it's Netflix.

[00:59:52] Chuck: okay. This episode is brought to you by Netflix because Robbie's been there.

[00:59:57] Robbie: Yeah, stay tuned [01:00:00] for other things brought to you by Netflix, where we will be on a crossover with Front End Happy Hour sometime soon.

[01:00:06] Chuck: Right? Speaking of literally brought to you by Netflix.

[01:00:10] Robbie: Although Ryan doesn't work there anymore.

[01:00:14] Chuck: Oh, yes, right. People quit, move on, whatever else. These things happen. never leaving. I think he's gonna one day own Netflix.

[01:00:24] Robbie: Well, I think, like, he gets to do whatever he wants there.

[01:00:29] Chuck: Yeah. Cause he's like, I show value in my passion projects.

[01:00:34] Robbie: So if they were just forcing him to like do feature work, I think he would leave. But

[01:00:38] Chuck: right.

[01:00:39] Robbie: be like, I want to build this thing that does whatever because I think it's cool. And they're

[01:00:43] Chuck: And it saved you 15 million and they're like, Oh, awesome.

[01:00:47] Robbie: Yeah.

Why would they not continue to employ him?

[01:00:50] Chuck: Yeah. That's a position I shall never, never hold Maybe in this podcast.

[01:00:59] Robbie: [01:01:00] Position of

[01:01:00] Chuck: just, yeah, I will never be the primogen. My mustache game is weak as book.

[01:01:08] Robbie: Did you, did you see the well, I guess two part question. Have you seen the Barbie movie?

[01:01:15] Chuck: Yes.

[01:01:16] Robbie: So did you see the, somebody posted like earlier today of like prime talking about the like Text editor that's not good or whatever. And it's like Ken being like, sublime.

[01:01:29] Chuck: yeah. . Yeah, I saw it. It's pretty good.

[01:01:33] Robbie: Yeah. Oh God. Yeah, that was good. All right. Well, we are over time here. I don't know. We talked about things. So if you liked it, please subscribe, leave us ratings and reviews. We appreciate it. And we'll catch you next time. Also,

[01:01:52] Chuck: jim bean.com

[01:01:55] Robbie: I was going to say.

[01:01:56] Chuck: bookers.

[01:01:57] Robbie: Reminder, whiskey. fund [01:02:00] get some swag. If you think it's too expensive, hit us up and we'll give you some promo codes.

[01:02:06] Chuck: Whoa. We're gonna keep losing money buck.

[01:02:09] Robbie: I want people to have swag. It's fine.

[01:02:11] Chuck: Fair enough.

[01:02:12] Robbie: All right. See ya.