178: Is Cereal Soup?, the FG Scale, and JS vs CSS with Adam Argyle

[00:00:00] Intro: Welcome to Syntax. Welcome to a brand new episode of the Front End Happy Hour podcast. Welcome to this week’s JS Party. Live from Ship Shape Studios, this is Whiskey Web and Whatnot. With your hosts, Robbie the Wagner, and me, Charles William Carpenter III. That’s right Charles. We drink whiskey and talk about web development.

[00:00:27] Intro: I mean, it’s all in the name. It’s not that deep. This is Whiskey Web and Whatnot. Do not adjust your set.

[00:00:36] Robbie Wagner: What’s up everybody. This is a whiskey web and whatnot. We have a guest today.

[00:00:41] Robbie Wagner: This is Adam Argyle. You may have seen him very recently also on the show.

[00:00:47] Chuck Carpenter: and he’s back again. Uh, I don’t know why he yeah, he just well, I didn’t bring that but

[00:00:52] Robbie Wagner: well, I have a a special.

[00:00:55] Adam Argyle: Ooh. Hey, whoa. And it’s like a branded [00:01:00] mixer or what’s

[00:01:01] Chuck Carpenter: it’s a

[00:01:02] Adam Argyle: flavors.

[00:01:03] Robbie Wagner: so they have different flavors because they’re playing the seltzer game but this one is mixed berry

[00:01:07] Robbie Wagner: citrus the the normal one is grapefruit like you know like the normal one and that one tastes exactly the same it’s a non alcoholic one but this one I don’t know I’m just gonna try a different flavor they can’t all be the same flavor so

[00:01:20] Robbie Wagner: whatever

[00:01:20] Chuck Carpenter: so Boozy Fresca is I mean, that’s That’s genius. That’s what I have to say. Why didn’t we do this sooner? That’s what I

[00:01:29] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. The mash bill is, uh, let’s see, uh, contains no juice. And if you have questions, you can visit frescomixed. com.

[00:01:38] Robbie Wagner: Oh

[00:01:42] Chuck Carpenter: You’ll never find this anywhere overseas. Definitely, instant cancer.

[00:01:46] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. The fact that it doesn’t say like contains no, uh, you know, all the chemicals and stuff they always advertise, like you buy anything in Europe and it’s like, it doesn’t have this and this and this and this.

[00:01:56] Robbie Wagner: And you’re like, cool. Well, okay.

[00:01:57] Robbie Wagner: Yeah.

[00:01:59] Chuck Carpenter: you’re like, [00:02:00] oh, well, and it’s delicious, that’s weird. Why did we put all that shit in there anyway? Well, I am

[00:02:06] Adam Argyle: and yikes.

[00:02:07] Chuck Carpenter: yikes.

[00:02:09] Adam Argyle: put nasty stuff on the packaging. They’re like, here’s a

[00:02:12] Robbie Wagner: Oh, I bet. Yeah.

[00:02:19] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah.

[00:02:19] Adam Argyle: like, what else should we do that with? Hey, are there any JavaScript libraries? We should put a label like that on there. It’s like may cause death.

[00:02:25] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah.

[00:02:26] Robbie Wagner: Ooo, controversial.

[00:02:28] Chuck Carpenter: Includes

[00:02:29] Adam Argyle: spicy. There it

[00:02:30] Adam Argyle: is,

[00:02:30] Chuck Carpenter: I want that. Yeah. You already

[00:02:33] Robbie Wagner: require you to write, , object oriented code.

[00:02:38] Chuck Carpenter: require you to use objects and,

[00:02:40] Adam Argyle: Oh yeah, it’s callback, so we should just throw someone into the callback hell, you know, and let them try to recursively navigate out of it. Can you succeed and

[00:02:50] Chuck Carpenter: Build a website with jQuery UI and Bootstrap. Enjoy! wait, I am

[00:02:56] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, I was okay with it. It was a lot easier than, , [00:03:00] Backbone, but Okay.

[00:03:01] Robbie Wagner: not enjoying trying to remove jQuery UI from our work code base

[00:03:05] Robbie Wagner: right

[00:03:05] Adam Argyle: Hmm.

[00:03:05] Adam Argyle: And

[00:03:06] Robbie Wagner: but

[00:03:06] Chuck Carpenter: is amazing. That’s worth applying for. , so I’m actually having the Standard Spirit Wormwood Rye because I discovered that this is one that I had in the arsenal that Robbie doesn’t have and it’s not something to easy get and blah blah blah blah blah so I’m just going to go ahead and break it open now.

[00:03:23] Chuck Carpenter: It’s very interesting. So it is a spirit distilled from a normal grain mash bill and flavored with wormwood and other herbs. Herbs, so it has like an absinthe like quality is what I’m

[00:03:35] Robbie Wagner: Is it.

[00:03:35] Robbie Wagner: aged in it? Are they like

[00:03:37] Chuck Carpenter: Uh, no, I think they flavor it. So, high rye thin mash with

[00:03:41] Robbie Wagner: a dust, put it in there.

[00:03:43] Chuck Carpenter: I didn’t, I didn’t ask these kind of

[00:03:44] Chuck Carpenter: questions.

[00:03:45] Adam Argyle: cast a spell. You’re like,

[00:03:46] Chuck Carpenter: Can I,

[00:03:47] Chuck Carpenter: can I get, can I get, Is it possible to finish the sentence? I’m not sure. Uh, Highratherin Thin Mash with Wormwood finished with four char levels of American and French Oak for a range of Butterscotch,

[00:03:59] Adam Argyle: there’s four [00:04:00] Charles in

[00:04:00] Chuck Carpenter: Kemp. Char levels. char

[00:04:02] Adam Argyle: Oh, char levels, not

[00:04:04] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. Oh, you don’t know about that? Um.

[00:04:06] Adam Argyle: levels.

[00:04:07] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, various levels of Charles.

[00:04:09] Chuck Carpenter: No, there’s a thing. So for bourbon, the char Yeah, I am. The, uh, the char levels are another thing that is, , bourbon is required to a particular char level with American oak. But this has other things. It does say it has no anise or licorice, , as part of its flavor additions. And it’s made with local rye and corn in the column of our still.

[00:04:30] Chuck Carpenter: So,

[00:04:30] Robbie Wagner: think my fallback, profession when this doesn’t work out is

[00:04:35] Robbie Wagner: going around and making sure the char on the barrels is correct.

[00:04:39] Adam Argyle: Yeah. Who, what do you call the chart? The char person, the char cat, you know,

[00:04:42] Adam Argyle: the,

[00:04:43] Chuck Carpenter: I don’t know. Yeah, like the, uh, I forget even what it’s called, the people who make the barrels. It’s like, uh, not rickery. What is it? It’s, yeah, the staves put together. I can’t remember what that, but I’m sure it’s somebody that works at the place that makes the barrels. That’s a whole industry

[00:04:58] Chuck Carpenter: unto

[00:04:58] Robbie Wagner: I want to say something, but [00:05:00] I feel like I’m

[00:05:00] Robbie Wagner: wrong.

[00:05:01] Adam Argyle: Crafting

[00:05:02] Chuck Carpenter: ahead and say it. No one will know. If you say it with conviction, people will think we’re geniuses. We’ve been doing it for three

[00:05:08] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, no, I was right. Okay, it’s a Cooper. A

[00:05:10] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, there you go. Yeah,

[00:05:12] Robbie Wagner: I was wanting to say that, and then if it turned out to be like the guy who made shoes, I was gonna look fucking dumb, so I didn’t want to

[00:05:17] Robbie Wagner: do

[00:05:17] Adam Argyle: Oh,

[00:05:18] Chuck Carpenter: That’s a cobbler. That’s a cobbler, yeah.

[00:05:21] Chuck Carpenter: And not

[00:05:21] Adam Argyle: love that phrase that a cobbler’s kids have no shoes. Do you think the web, the web developers, kids will have no websites? Is that the,

[00:05:27] Chuck Carpenter: They definitely don’t. I mean, do you have

[00:05:30] Robbie Wagner: time they’re old enough to make websites, no, they will not have

[00:05:33] Chuck Carpenter: yeah,

[00:05:34] Chuck Carpenter: yeah, the web

[00:05:35] Chuck Carpenter: developer’s family? No.

[00:05:37] Robbie Wagner: No, I should though, I guess.

[00:05:39] Chuck Carpenter: Some people make emails and then like, Fair enough. , okay, well I’m gonna taste this one. It doesn’t smell like licorice, just so you know.

[00:05:48] Robbie Wagner: They told you it wouldn’t.

[00:05:50] Chuck Carpenter: it says it has none in

[00:05:51] Adam Argyle: and how did you say Annis again?

[00:05:53] Chuck Carpenter: Anise? Star of an Star anise?

[00:05:55] Chuck Carpenter: Anise? Anus?

[00:05:57] Adam Argyle: Or are you wrong?

[00:05:58] Chuck Carpenter: Why do you want to say [00:06:00] anus?

[00:06:01] Adam Argyle: Well, anise. It’s not a

[00:06:03] Chuck Carpenter: Anus? Anus? I don’t know.

[00:06:05] Adam Argyle: Uh,

[00:06:08] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, uh, I don’t know.

[00:06:10] Robbie Wagner: I’m trying to look it up. Let’s

[00:06:12] Chuck Carpenter: Okay, there we go. Wow, we worked through this tasting. It’s very difficult. Adam, why don’t you pour yourself something?

[00:06:17] Adam Argyle: I’ve

[00:06:18] Robbie Wagner: Anis. It is Anis.

[00:06:20] Adam Argyle: It’s anise. Oh,

[00:06:20] Adam Argyle: sweet.

[00:06:22] Chuck Carpenter: So it’s

[00:06:22] Adam Argyle: I love it when

[00:06:23] Chuck Carpenter: Star

[00:06:23] Chuck Carpenter: of anus. Anus. Star of anus. That’s something, too. Oh my gosh.

[00:06:29] Chuck Carpenter: This

[00:06:29] Adam Argyle: I just like the choc chocolate anise. You know, like, uh, that sounds like a band name.

[00:06:34] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. Yes.

[00:06:37] Chuck Carpenter: Okay.

[00:06:38] Robbie Wagner: Anis

[00:06:39] Adam Argyle: what this whiskey tastes

[00:06:40] Robbie Wagner: I’m going to continue to say it wrong.

[00:06:43] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, I’m going to go with Anise because I don’t, I don’t want to have to explain that to my kids. Oh, interesting. I don’t know if you saying chocolate, , affected me, but it has a little bit of a, like a, a dark chocolate, like, you know, a little bit of a bitter chocolate, , in the beginning.

[00:06:58] Robbie Wagner: I’m getting

[00:06:59] Adam Argyle: has a peppery [00:07:00]

[00:07:00] Robbie Wagner: mixed berry citrus.

[00:07:02] Chuck Carpenter: It definitely has a little bit of licorice like flavor to it, though. And then a little bit of, like, that light nutmeg. It’s very interesting, I would have to say. I don’t know if I like it or don’t like it. Quite yet. I’m warming up, but it, you know, to me in general, it’s kind of like a flavored rye.

[00:07:20] Chuck Carpenter: So I’ll just consider it more of a flavored, you know, American whiskey. I’m not sure I’m prepared to rate it on our

[00:07:27] Robbie Wagner: Well, it will be a, uh, inaccurate rating because we won’t be able to average it amongst everyone rating it,

[00:07:34] Chuck Carpenter: That’s true. so. I’ll skip the rating and just let people know. This is

[00:07:37] Chuck Carpenter: interesting. It’s

[00:07:37] Chuck Carpenter: worth

[00:07:38] Robbie Wagner: time. We’ll try it again.

[00:07:40] Robbie Wagner: Yeah,

[00:07:40] Adam Argyle: Put it in your whiskey

[00:07:41] Chuck Carpenter: entry would be Yeah, yeah, I’ll just keep it to myself. Go ahead and DM me on, , Twitter. Because it’s the only place so far. , socially I’m willing to tolerate. If everybody leaves

[00:07:54] Robbie Wagner: Everyone’s on Blue Sky now,

[00:07:56] Adam Argyle: everyone’s on blue sky, dude. I swear. Twitter is full of bots right now. Like [00:08:00] I’m like, I don’t know anyone really on there yet. Things seem active. And I’m like,

[00:08:04] Chuck Carpenter: I might be just done with the whole social media thing again. I don’t need it that much.

[00:08:08] Adam Argyle: I reject it all. I mean, you could

[00:08:10] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah,

[00:08:11] Adam Argyle: own your

[00:08:12] Chuck Carpenter: I might end up there, so we’ll see. But for the time being, message me on there if you’re

[00:08:16] Adam Argyle: you can host

[00:08:17] Adam Argyle: your own blue sky content. In case you’re interested in

[00:08:20] Adam Argyle: that, you don’t even have to use the site. Could just be a way people find you, but you’re totally own your own shit. It’s on your own servers. , you post to it using the protocol. It retrieves from your server as a protocol. I mean, it’s kind of cool how you don’t have to rely on blue sky and there’s even apps like gray sky.

[00:08:38] Adam Argyle: There’s other UIs that interface with the backbone and it’s pretty cool stuff. I don’t know. It’s a little bit different. It’s also very, very similar, but it’s a little bit different.

[00:08:47] Chuck Carpenter: Heh heh I just, it sounds like a lot of work.

[00:08:51] Robbie Wagner: The only thing that I hate so far is if you have more than one account. You know, on Twitter you can just hit the picture to switch [00:09:00] accounts.

[00:09:01] Robbie Wagner: I have to go into settings, switch my account, find the post I wanted to comment on again. it’s super annoying. So, yeah. Fix that and uh, Dan, fix that please.

[00:09:11] Robbie Wagner: Um, otherwise it’s good.

[00:09:14] Chuck Carpenter: Den den. Den den. Those noodles are amazing, by the way. Den den noodles? Fire.

[00:09:19] Adam Argyle: Yeah.

[00:09:20] Adam Argyle: Dan

[00:09:20] Chuck Carpenter: always like a dan dan noodle. So,

[00:09:22] Adam Argyle: It’s fun to say things

[00:09:23] Chuck Carpenter: you know, that, uh,

[00:09:24] Adam Argyle: It’s a Chuck Chuck noodle. It’s a Chuck Chuck bear. See? Now it’s a cute

[00:09:28] Adam Argyle: bear. It’s a

[00:09:29] Chuck Carpenter: is it have to be, it has to be just kind of like You can’t really go Adam Adam. Adam Adam Adam Adam.

[00:09:36] Adam Argyle: Yeah, my name sucks.

[00:09:37] Robbie Wagner: it does have to be one

[00:09:37] Chuck Carpenter: quite the same flow.

[00:09:39] Robbie Wagner: All right, let’s get to

[00:09:40] Robbie Wagner: the, the most important topic right now.

[00:09:44] Chuck Carpenter: yeah.

[00:09:45] Robbie Wagner: Is cereal soup?

[00:09:47] Chuck Carpenter: I will jump it into the whatnot.

[00:09:49] Robbie Wagner: Yeah.

[00:09:50] Adam Argyle: It’s

[00:09:50] Robbie Wagner: That’s what I titled our, our title. So we have to, yes,

[00:09:54] Chuck Carpenter: the cri Actually,

[00:09:56] Robbie Wagner: the definition

[00:09:56] Robbie Wagner: of

[00:09:56] Chuck Carpenter: What is the definition of soup, right? Uh, things in a

[00:09:59] Chuck Carpenter: broth y

[00:09:59] Adam Argyle: [00:10:00] bowl. You know, some chunks in

[00:10:01] Robbie Wagner: Must it be warm? Um,

[00:10:03] Chuck Carpenter: No, cause gazpacho is

[00:10:04] Chuck Carpenter: soup.

[00:10:05] Adam Argyle: Yeah,

[00:10:06] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah,

[00:10:06] Chuck Carpenter: gazpacho. Yeah. Cold

[00:10:08] Robbie Wagner: those are not good, whereas

[00:10:10] Chuck Carpenter: Ha ha

[00:10:11] Adam Argyle: Cereal

[00:10:12] Chuck Carpenter: Well, subjectivity aside, I mean, I think you need to define soup first. And

[00:10:21] Robbie Wagner: that you could drink, or eat with a spoon, that is mostly liquid and could have, you know, large pieces of other things in it that you would have to

[00:10:33] Chuck Carpenter: So is

[00:10:33] Robbie Wagner: that couldn’t be drinkable.

[00:10:34] Chuck Carpenter: Is chili soup?

[00:10:36] Robbie Wagner: Hmm, I guess, I think there needs to be a certain amount of

[00:10:39] Adam Argyle: There’s like

[00:10:39] Robbie Wagner: if you poured it out, yeah, how, how much would it, like, move? And, like, chili could kind of just stay the same shape, kind of, depending on how thick It

[00:10:48] Robbie Wagner: is.

[00:10:48] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, it depends on how thick it

[00:10:50] Robbie Wagner: So, I, I do think, probably most of the time you could consider chili soup.

[00:10:54] Chuck Carpenter: Okay, so I think we have to We can consider, , cereal like breakfast [00:11:00] soup.

[00:11:00] Adam Argyle: Breakfast soup, it’s sweet

[00:11:01] Robbie Wagner: are there any sweet soups?

[00:11:04] Adam Argyle: that’s a good

[00:11:05] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah,

[00:11:06] Chuck Carpenter: why not? Right,

[00:11:09] Robbie Wagner: I know I’ve had like a Yeah, like a you know pumpkin soup or something, but it’s still like slightly

[00:11:14] Adam Argyle: like a tea. You know, you

[00:11:15] Adam Argyle: got

[00:11:15] Adam Argyle: like a

[00:11:15] Chuck Carpenter: butternut squash is like I mean, this is along the same lines of, I have asked this question, is a hot dog a sandwich? Hot dog on a bun? Because that’s also confusing. You use the term hot dog, or whatever, the words hot dog, to mean both the sausage and the sausage on the bread.

[00:11:36] Chuck Carpenter: Is hot dog a sandwich?

[00:11:38] Chuck Carpenter: And then also, is a hamburger the sandwich? And I saw this because I saw an advertisement that was like, get a Whopper sandwich. And I was like, so they’re saying get a hamburger sandwich basically, is hamburger a sandwich?

[00:11:51] Robbie Wagner: you should be including sandwich? when you describe those things

[00:11:54] Robbie Wagner: because you could have a hamburger without the bun

[00:11:57] Chuck Carpenter: yeah. And I advocate for using the [00:12:00] term sandwich to mean includes bun.

[00:12:02] Chuck Carpenter: So I want a hot dog sandwich, or do I just want a hot dog?

[00:12:05] Adam Argyle: Mmm.

[00:12:06] Chuck Carpenter: Hmm. So this is why cereal could also kind of fall into that more blanket category. So breakfast soup. I’ll have some breakfast soup. , I’m going to have that tomorrow and tell my family I’m going to have some breakfast soup.

[00:12:20] Chuck Carpenter: And you’re like, what are you talking about?

[00:12:21] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, I was just trying to think about like I guess You do use the term sandwich for most sandwichy things. Like if you go to Burger King and you’re like, I want a Whopper, there’ll be like the meal or just the sandwich,

[00:12:35] Robbie Wagner: so you refer to it as a sandwich.

[00:12:37] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. Yeah. So just

[00:12:38] Chuck Carpenter: saying a

[00:12:39] Robbie Wagner: think, or am I wrong? Am I remembering how they would say, I need to go to a Burger King and see what they say.

[00:12:45] Chuck Carpenter: it’s just short form, like it’s implied sandwich. It is a sandwich, but it’s implied. Cause you don’t go and say, I’d like a Philly cheesesteak sandwich. You know, if I’m getting Philly cheesesteak, it’s the whole thing. Nobody wants that without the bread.

[00:12:59] Chuck Carpenter: That’s like [00:13:00] saying, I’ll have it without the whiz.

[00:13:03] Robbie Wagner: Oh, I would not eat it without the whiz, though. The

[00:13:05] Robbie Wagner: whiz is

[00:13:05] Robbie Wagner: the jam. That is all the fake chemicals. I need the fake chemicals.

[00:13:10] Chuck Carpenter: you know, that’s how you order it. WitWiz. That’s the

[00:13:14] Adam Argyle: It’s like, uh, sometimes we have too

[00:13:15] Robbie Wagner: Isn’t it implied that it comes with it?

[00:13:17] Adam Argyle: It better come with it. I mean, I think it should.

[00:13:20] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, like why would you need to say with when you could just be like it just comes with it. I

[00:13:26] Chuck Carpenter: Because some people will get provolone and other cheeses. I

[00:13:29] Robbie Wagner: Oh, those people are

[00:13:30] Adam Argyle: good. Mmm, Provolone

[00:13:31] Adam Argyle: is

[00:13:32] Chuck Carpenter: Provolone is good, but I would kind of say WitWiz is kind of, it’s the

[00:13:36] Robbie Wagner: That’s the classic,

[00:13:37] Chuck Carpenter: That’s the classic, yeah.

[00:13:39] Adam Argyle: Sounds like a

[00:13:39] Chuck Carpenter: you know, you have it your way. That’s how WitWi is. What

[00:13:43] Robbie Wagner: I bet there is a rapper with that name.

[00:13:45] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. Wiz Khalifa. So there’s Anyway.

[00:13:50] Chuck Carpenter: Yes. Well, I actually have no

[00:13:53] Robbie Wagner: Is he based, is he named after Cheez Whiz? I would hope so.

[00:13:57] Chuck Carpenter: You know, I, we haven’t had that conversation yet, [00:14:00] so.

[00:14:00] Robbie Wagner: Oh, you haven’t?

[00:14:01] Adam Argyle: There’s Mr. Cheezle from, uh, Grandma’s Boy.

[00:14:04] Chuck Carpenter: I have never seen that.

[00:14:06] Robbie Wagner: have not

[00:14:07] Chuck Carpenter: It’s Nick

[00:14:07] Chuck Carpenter: Schwartzen’s like, most popular movie, and I don’t know why, like, it’s I think it was just at a point where like Nick Swartzen was like blowing up and He was kind of annoying to me for a little bit when that movie came out and I was like I just I need a break from this guy.

[00:14:23] Chuck Carpenter: I’ll I’ll see it later. It sounds dumb. Whatever I’ll see it later and then just 20 years later still hasn’t happened he’s funny. I mean like i’ve definitely listened to his comedy stuff and everything but

[00:14:34] Adam Argyle: don’t typically like stoner movies, but that one is, like, on point. There’s just some awesome parts where, like, his grandma drinks his tea off the tin in his shelf, but it was actually weed. And then she, she’s like, I can hear my hair growing! Hey, there’s a sandwich reference in there!

[00:14:48] Adam Argyle: She comes out with ice cream sandwiches and she goes, do you want them on wheat or rye? Or a white or rye or whatever.

[00:14:53] Adam Argyle: She’s got them on a tray. She’s got ice cream in between pieces of bread with lettuce. And she’s like, who wants an ice cream [00:15:00] sandwich?

[00:15:00] Chuck Carpenter: Oh, gosh. Yes, but not those. Well, there you go, though. That’s a very valid point already. there is a dessert sandwich. An ice cream sandwich. Is,

[00:15:09] Robbie Wagner: But it’s, but there’s not a dessert soup, or like a sweet soup,

[00:15:13] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. We,

[00:15:15] Robbie Wagner: I

[00:15:16] Chuck Carpenter: What about, well, it’s not soupy enough, right? Like, so some kind of chocolate mousse or whatever. I don’t know.

[00:15:23] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, what if your applesauce Is very liquidy?

[00:15:25] Chuck Carpenter: applesauce dessert?

[00:15:27] Adam Argyle: Like if your ice cream melts, it becomes soupy as well. It’s like it went from not soup to soup right before your eyes.

[00:15:36] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, uh, I mean almost if like your milkshake. I drink your milkshake, but it is soup now. It’s almost like that, a little bit.

[00:15:46] Adam Argyle: is a function of method and is a method of function.

[00:15:48] Chuck Carpenter: sometimes. Method is usually what, a property on a class or object? Yeah, it’s a,

[00:15:54] Robbie Wagner: but A function doesn’t have to be a method

[00:15:56] Adam Argyle: Yes, that’s my understanding also. Do you think sandwiches [00:16:00] and like this hot dog thing are similar? Or like, the hot dog, you know, bread, has one connected side. It’s only got one open face. Right? and that’s kind of clutch because it’s catching shit. you know, it’s the diaper of the wiener. And Well,

[00:16:19] Chuck Carpenter: not old enough for that to be the problem or the case, right? I hope, hopefully you’re not wearing wiener diapers yet. But, uh, I’m not far away.

[00:16:29] Adam Argyle: I just turned really red. I could feel how red, I

[00:16:34] Chuck Carpenter: Not

[00:16:34] Adam Argyle: stumbled, I stumbled right across it. But I mean, like, yeah, like thinking about like pitas, you know, like other things. I mean, the point was still like, if you got the Pac Man sandwich, , you know, with only one open face, you’re like, that is kind of clutch in the eating vessel

[00:16:47] Adam Argyle: mechanism strategy. And as soon as it becomes un, you’re like, Connected. Like if you have a hot dog and the diaper disconnects, you’re totally like, what? This is junk to me now. You get upset. You’re like the whole purpose, your whole purpose is [00:17:00] gone. You know?

[00:17:01] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, yeah, because, like, hot dogs outside of the bun basically should just get cut up and put into SpaghettiOs. Otherwise, what’s the point,

[00:17:10] Robbie Wagner: Oh, I love hot dogs and

[00:17:11] Robbie Wagner: spaghettios.

[00:17:12] Chuck Carpenter: yeah, I like that. Or beans and franks, I can even tolerate that. Like, SpaghettiOs, franks and O’s, yes. Beans and

[00:17:19] Robbie Wagner: something

[00:17:20] Adam Argyle: good stuff. Yeah.

[00:17:22] Robbie Wagner: there’s something about how the, the ones that come in the can

[00:17:25] Robbie Wagner: are even lower quality than the like minced mystery meat crap you would buy anyway.

[00:17:32] Robbie Wagner: And that just tastes so good.

[00:17:33] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, yeah. It’s like the Vienna sausage of, of meats or something like that. Like, I actually like canned meats. , because I grew up, uh, with a trash mouth, apparently. Because, like, potted meat, Vienna sausages, spam. I love all these things. I have no problem digging into that. So,

[00:17:51] Chuck Carpenter: I don’t

[00:17:52] Robbie Wagner: It’s the salt and the chemicals makes everything

[00:17:54] Chuck Carpenter: yeah.

[00:17:55] Adam Argyle: Is there a JavaScript library that’s like this where you’re like, it’s not good for me. It’s the end of the [00:18:00] meat. You know, it’s the last little bits of the library JavaScript, but you know what? I just can’t stop using it. It’s just too good and delicious. It’s like a guilty pleasure,

[00:18:09] Chuck Carpenter: I mean, I think, like,

[00:18:11] Adam Argyle: like, moment

[00:18:12] Chuck Carpenter: Let’s think of it that way. Like, yeah, like,

[00:18:14] Robbie Wagner: I do use a lot of moment,

[00:18:15] Robbie Wagner: yeah.

[00:18:16] Chuck Carpenter: You know? Like, Lodash, is like a jQuery, like, library that was, like, you know, such a helper for so long, and it was just easy button to kind of keep rolling with it.

[00:18:26] Chuck Carpenter: And when I see Lodash, like, in a project now, I kind of feel like, why? But then it’s

[00:18:32] Chuck Carpenter: already there,

[00:18:33] Robbie Wagner: wanted to group by and group by wasn’t out

[00:18:35] Robbie Wagner: yet.

[00:18:35] Adam Argyle: Yeah. Or they want to do certain things in like a one liner where we’re like, no, I shall use ES6. I shall continue nesting and using, multiple ternaries in line.

[00:18:45] Chuck Carpenter: I, I will, I want to keep this standards sticker on my laptop. And in order to do so, I must write it out 400 lines.

[00:18:55] Adam Argyle: What is your favorite color? I like that we just turned into, Oh shoot, what’s that

[00:18:59] Adam Argyle: movie? [00:19:00]

[00:19:00] Chuck Carpenter: The right answer was green.

[00:19:02] Adam Argyle: Python. Monty

[00:19:03] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, yeah, that’s what it is. Is that the one where like, You shall not pass. You must answer these three questions.

[00:19:12]

[00:19:12] Chuck Carpenter: These questions? Thrice. Or three, is it? Yeah, it’s been a while.

[00:19:16] Adam Argyle: What is your favorite color?

[00:19:18] Adam Argyle: This is how you should ask the spicy questions.

[00:19:25] Chuck Carpenter: Maybe

[00:19:25] Adam Argyle: a cereal a soup?

[00:19:28] Chuck Carpenter: we’re gonna start to change the format, which means we’ll probably get less guests, but, we’ll try the whiskey a little bit in the beginning, and then, like, before each hot take, you have to take a shot of that whiskey. One ounce shot, and then

[00:19:43] Adam Argyle: That is very Hot Ones, which y’all were like originated on, right? It’s a good idea to follow the

[00:19:48] Chuck Carpenter: I say it is inspirational to just entering the idea of duress, and having a good time.

[00:19:54] Chuck Carpenter: Not necessarily duress because like alcohol isn’t spicy. My mouth is on hot or whatever you’re on [00:20:00] fire or whatever Well, we would just want people to like come a little bit out of their like professional shell They’re like I have this spiel about the thing. I’m here to talk about when we want you to relax some yeah hot dog

[00:20:11] Adam Argyle: commentary.

[00:20:12] Chuck Carpenter: Adam Argyle author of the JS library hot dog diapers

[00:20:17] Robbie Wagner: I bet there isn’t one already.

[00:20:19] Chuck Carpenter: I’m certain you could definitely have that.

[00:20:21] Adam Argyle: And then

[00:20:22] Adam Argyle: one of

[00:20:22] Adam Argyle: the errors that it admits says, says not hot dog. You’re like, you tried to put something inside of this. That’s not hot.

[00:20:29] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, how would those sell? If you like started a bakery and then like would package hot dog buns, but you just called them

[00:20:38] Adam Argyle: Dude. Burrito tape sold good. If burrito tape can sell well, I

[00:20:42] Adam Argyle: think maybe I’ll make hot dog tape. Yeah. Burrito tape. Do you know?

[00:20:45] Chuck Carpenter: No, I that just keep your burritos closed?

[00:20:47] Adam Argyle: it will. Yes, it goes around the, okay. So like, imagine, , it was kind of like edible tape. So instead

[00:20:53] Adam Argyle: of

[00:20:54] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, yeah. Is it kind of

[00:20:55] Adam Argyle: in something, you put this tape on the burrito and then you can just eat it as you go.

[00:20:58] Adam Argyle: There’s none of this unfolding the [00:21:00] diaper

[00:21:00] Adam Argyle: ritual.

[00:21:01] Chuck Carpenter: the seaweed tape that goes around, uh,

[00:21:04] Adam Argyle: Yeah,

[00:21:04] Chuck Carpenter: is it, Nagori or whatever? Yeah, the sushi and stuff. I could see that, except for, I do believe if you just warm up your, , tortilla and then fold it right, it’s not a problem. It doesn’t come

[00:21:15] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, I’ve never learned how to fold it right. I just

[00:21:17] Adam Argyle: Oh, that’s a skill, dude. It’s just like swaddling a baby. You got to learn these things. Like, you got to know how to tighten up the burrito and the arms on that little toddler, You

[00:21:26] Robbie Wagner: Well,

[00:21:26] Robbie Wagner: what’s more important is the technique of eating. You just hold the whole burrito and like never put it down and eat it as fast as you can and then it doesn’t matter how well it was wrapped.

[00:21:39] Adam Argyle: That is the fun way. The messy way. It’s the artistic

[00:21:42] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. Yeah, the artistic way. You gotta say this correct. Star of an anus. Star of anus. Anus. There’s no,

[00:21:50] Chuck Carpenter: there’s,

[00:21:51] Robbie Wagner: Anus

[00:21:53] Chuck Carpenter: there’s no anus in here. Or

[00:21:55] Chuck Carpenter: liquorice. liquorice.

[00:21:58] Adam Argyle: Oh, yeah, licorice, I don’t know, just [00:22:00] anus sounds like someone’s name. Or wait, what? Did you say again? How did you say it

[00:22:04] Robbie Wagner: Anise. Anise. Anise.

[00:22:07] Adam Argyle: a niece. I was like, yeah, I’ve got a niece around the corner. Uh, her name is Annis.

[00:22:11] Chuck Carpenter: That is a little nicer, I’m just saying, for her. Like if you named someone that, do you think they would like to be called? Because I don’t assume it’s a male or female name, but, , would they like to be called Anise or Anis?

[00:22:26] Adam Argyle: I don’t know. It sounds like Alice, you know, it’s like Alice, but a little darker. Cause you’re, you’re a, you’re black licorice. You’re sweet to some, but evil and gothic to others.

[00:22:36] Chuck Carpenter: Right. Yeah, this is true. It’s a very good point. And I, I also appreciate how much you’re trying to tie this back to JS libraries. I was thinking of like, high level categorization and like sandwich short form is almost like, , you know, CSS shortcuts. You have the long

[00:22:52] Chuck Carpenter: property description. You’ve got the shortcuts if you do it right. , yeah, they have them in Spain too, like, , they have them in basically all, I forget what they call them. [00:23:00] They’re just like little snacks. They call them like little snack and whatever that

[00:23:03] Robbie Wagner: Little tea sandwiches.

[00:23:04] Adam Argyle: Yeah.

[00:23:05] Adam Argyle: A little

[00:23:05] Chuck Carpenter: the tea sandwiches. It’s more like a tiny

[00:23:07] Chuck Carpenter: baguette kind of thing.

[00:23:08] Chuck Carpenter: okay, sing it.

[00:23:10] Adam Argyle: Oh,

[00:23:11] Chuck Carpenter: You and Robbie could have showed up with banjos. He’s got his now.

[00:23:15] Adam Argyle: Dang dude, I will help you get

[00:23:17] Adam Argyle: addicted. I’m still I’d love

[00:23:19] Adam Argyle: to thank so much Oh, I went to a show last night and was watching like metal bands play and I was like I could do banjo rolls with An electric banjo and it would be super cool. I’ve just slightly

[00:23:27] Adam Argyle: adjusted so it’s not all like country bluesy I could like Do like a dope metal riff with like a banjo roll.

[00:23:33] Adam Argyle: I’m like, you’d be fast

[00:23:34] Adam Argyle: to be sick. Anyway, so I

[00:23:36] Adam Argyle: kind of want to try that. Okay. The song goes, uh, I went to England. I visited the queen. She had the smallest sandwiches that I had ever seen. , I asked for another and she looked at me a door. She handed me a sandwich and then she kicked me out the door.

[00:23:50] Adam Argyle: Ah, there’s more verses. I can’t remember them now,

[00:23:53] Adam Argyle: but the queen had small sandwiches. I guess

[00:23:56] Chuck Carpenter: Well, tea sandwiches are small. They’re like little sandwiches and they just [00:24:00] have like a

[00:24:00] Robbie Wagner: They’re always gross,

[00:24:01] Robbie Wagner: though. It’ll be like,

[00:24:03] Adam Argyle: they look

[00:24:04] Robbie Wagner: it’ll be like, Hey,

[00:24:06] Chuck Carpenter: Maybe it’s where

[00:24:06] Robbie Wagner: this, the thinnest bread you’ve ever seen.

[00:24:08] Robbie Wagner: And all we put in there was cucumbers. How about a

[00:24:11] Adam Argyle: or olive

[00:24:12] Robbie Wagner: instead? Yeah,

[00:24:16] Chuck Carpenter: with cucumbers and then like a smear of cream cheese in that and they’ll do like, uh,

[00:24:21] Chuck Carpenter: little smoked salmon ones. Actually, the last time I was in England, we did tea service with the kids at a place and it was amazing. They brought out all these like, , Great little sandwiches, and they had a kids version of everything.

[00:24:35] Chuck Carpenter: And it was during Wimbledon, and so they had these awesome pastries that looked like little tennis balls. And then they had like cream in the middle and everything else. It was, it was great. And then for the kids, they could get milkshakes and mint tea if they wanted. Which, no caffeine and whatever else.

[00:24:50] Chuck Carpenter: That

[00:24:50] Robbie Wagner: Did all the boys come as well?

[00:24:52] Chuck Carpenter: Yes, I

[00:24:53] Robbie Wagner: Cause they had milkshakes.

[00:24:54] Adam Argyle: Woo

[00:24:54] Chuck Carpenter: Oh, bring the boys to the yard. That woman was married to Naz. I don’t know if she still [00:25:00] is, but fun fact. Uh,

[00:25:01] Chuck Carpenter: Kellis, I think was her name? Or is her name? I don’t think she’s dead.

[00:25:05] Adam Argyle: was pretty

[00:25:05] Chuck Carpenter: So she is, was, whatever else. Naz. that’s a fun fact. But didn’t bring all the boys to the British yard that I’m aware of.

[00:25:12] Adam Argyle: Oh, speaking of that, have you heard of the band Manchester Orchestra?

[00:25:16] Chuck Carpenter: Yes. Love it.

[00:25:17] Adam Argyle: Yes, that’s, I

[00:25:18] Adam Argyle: saw them in Thrice last night. but I was like, this has a good tie in.

[00:25:22] Adam Argyle: Oh yeah, fresco. Is this peach

[00:25:23] Adam Argyle: flavored?

[00:25:24] Robbie Wagner: citrus.

[00:25:26] Adam Argyle: Mmm,

[00:25:27] Chuck Carpenter: What was your feedback on the first alternative flavor? Hmm.

[00:25:33] Robbie Wagner: the, Grapefruit one, but with a little bit of berries. I’m guessing this one is going to be Like just a little bit of pineapple added. Let’s see

[00:25:40] Chuck Carpenter: Okay. I wanted to ask, Okay, Adam, why does CSS tooling get no funding and JS tooling gets a ton?

[00:25:50] Adam Argyle: where did you hear this? That’s such a profound thing to be saying.

[00:25:54] Chuck Carpenter: I I heard this from the notes that Robbie made, so I probably stole his thunder on that [00:26:00] question, but I was just trying to steer us into something technical and whatever else for our

[00:26:03] Chuck Carpenter: audience. know. I, I honestly do this one for Charles, yo.

[00:26:07] Adam Argyle: is JS just seen as the, , omniscient control center? cause I mean, it’s like JS has to interface with HTML almost no way around it unless you go canvas. so, okay, so with this tight dependency and sure JS can create h TM L and create CSS and CSS can’t really create JavaScript, although it’s starting to take its job in a lot of ways.

[00:26:29] Adam Argyle: HTML as well, taking the role of, uh, JavaScript’s job, but somehow JavaScript is seen as this like Mecca epicenter, and it’s also so conceptually powerful and mysterious that investors show up and say It’s the users. You have users, here is some money or whatever. but I don’t know. I never know how they’re going to get that back.

[00:26:49] Adam Argyle: Like if you’re getting into tooling and why not, if you’re trying to empower developers, we’re here to empower developers with next generation tooling in your kit. The red squiggles will now animate [00:27:00] as they squiggle and give you actually meaningful information, which is not possible anyway. Okay. Like what where is this for like the holistic view?

[00:27:10] Adam Argyle: Like why is I mean Svelte has like an HTML inter, CSS has like style and some other things But like these are wimpy in comparison to like what typescript does which is like I understand everything so much I know more than you and I go shut up. No, you don’t and it goes Yeah, I do. This will be undefined once in a million years.

[00:27:25] Adam Argyle: You must fucking solve it I’m like TS ignore that bullshit, you know, like anyway, sorry, there’s

[00:27:33] Chuck Carpenter: couple.

[00:27:34] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, no, no, you’re totally on the subject. I have a couple of points. I think one of them is that JavaScript was perceived in that very same way for quite some time. So I think it’s by design that it has been elevated in importance.

[00:27:50] Chuck Carpenter: Oh yeah, back end developers, everyone else who would, uh, talk shit about make things pretty. Well, let me show you how complex and computer science y I can [00:28:00] become here

[00:28:00] Adam Argyle: bow to my stream of linked lists

[00:28:02] Chuck Carpenter: Right, exactly, right? And, and so it was just They were linked in that same way, and then Folks came in and introduced complexity for a myriad of reasons, whatever, trying to prove a point, maybe they’re right, maybe they’re wrong.

[00:28:19] Chuck Carpenter: I’m not here to judge that. But I think that is part of it is that, you know, JavaScript was seen as that same way. And I think tooling and TypeScript is another thing that, exposes how it can be A real programming language, right? Like, not just a scripting language for the browser, but you can actually make full on applications.

[00:28:40] Chuck Carpenter: Which, yes and no, right? Like, there’s a database in the browser, I guess you can do some things in that respect, and whatever else, but, turns out, CSS doesn’t have a bunch of that. I lost my second point, so, sorry. That was one of

[00:28:54] Robbie Wagner: I do want to make a quick point that HTML also doesn’t really have [00:29:00] tooling.

[00:29:00] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah.

[00:29:00] Robbie Wagner: So it’s just that it’s not a CSS specific problem. It’s that JavaScript is viewed as like where you do the heavy logic, whether that’s the right place to do it or not, or you should use web standards and like built in, you know, native HTML stuff and like CSS

[00:29:17] Adam Argyle: to stand on the shoulders of giants, but I don’t want to stand on the shoulders of the HTML standards because they’re not giants, they’re wimps.

[00:29:25] Robbie Wagner: Yeah,

[00:29:25] Robbie Wagner: the Giants do it all themselves. They write all divs and

[00:29:30] Robbie Wagner: just hand roll everything.

[00:29:32] Chuck Carpenter: but the funny thing is, is there is no internet without HTML, right? If there’s no hypermedia, then there’s no outlay of information that interconnects to another hypermedia document. Like, if you don’t have those two things, you don’t have the internet. So you can, you know, Flashturbate, whatever, I don’t know, I’m trying to think of whatever the new word, you can do all this like complex masturbation on top and create HTML, but [00:30:00] that’s exactly what you’re doing.

[00:30:01] Chuck Carpenter: JavaScript is creating CSS, creating HTML, creating the things it requires in its environment, or they could be there already and play together nicely. Depends, but without HTML, just everything aside without HTML. Connecting to additional HTML within your own domain, or elsewhere, there is no internet, so it doesn’t fucking matter.

[00:30:28] Chuck Carpenter: So the web goes away and you can just make software

[00:30:30] Adam Argyle: My servers keep running, Chuck, and all I need is my JavaScript to have one

[00:30:35] Adam Argyle: thread don’t need a server, and I will be faithful to this forever.

[00:30:39] Chuck Carpenter: You just need a Raspberry Pi that you open up to the internet and there you go. That’s all you need. You could serve up

[00:30:48] Adam Argyle: Are there people reverse hacking? Like, what if I opened up a port to the internet and I’m like, yes, I guess it’s the honey badger kind of concept. I’d be like, yes, try to invade me, you know? And it’s just like, invades me. And I claw and I’m like, I [00:31:00] got you now. And you

[00:31:01] Adam Argyle: just, is a logging and monitoring app called Honey Badger. I don’t think that’s what you mean, right? You’re just trying to make the Nat Geo joke like Honey Badger don’t give a fuck?

[00:31:12] Adam Argyle: I don’t know. Isn’t honey badger was like the thing where like you, you leave something out to entice them, , in

[00:31:16] Robbie Wagner: Mean honey

[00:31:17] Chuck Carpenter: Honey Pot. Honey

[00:31:18] Chuck Carpenter: Pot. No, the Honey

[00:31:20] Chuck Carpenter: Pot. So it’s hidden fields, it’s hidden fields that when the bot finds it, oh, that’s

[00:31:26] Robbie Wagner: Whoa.

[00:31:28] Chuck Carpenter: Okay.

[00:31:29] Robbie Wagner: Oh,

[00:31:29] Robbie Wagner: spooky

[00:31:30] Adam Argyle: just turn off. Hey. Yes. Who

[00:31:31] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah,

[00:31:32] Adam Argyle: poopy?

[00:31:32] Chuck Carpenter: what happened there. Something happened here. , but I’m still recording.

[00:31:38] Adam Argyle: You

[00:31:39] Robbie Wagner: The room seems to be unlit.

[00:31:42] Chuck Carpenter: Welcome to another edition of Spooky Stories from the Internet.

[00:31:48] Robbie Wagner: I feel like I should turn lights off around me and match the

[00:31:50] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, you should do it.

[00:31:51] Adam Argyle: can’t, I’m, it’s daytime still.

[00:31:54] Robbie Wagner: Oh,

[00:31:54] Chuck Carpenter: my god, that’s bright as shit. What do you guys like? Do you like dark? Or do you like

[00:31:59] Adam Argyle: I mean, dark was [00:32:00] cool. You looked

[00:32:00] Adam Argyle: all

[00:32:00] Chuck Carpenter: Dark mode. Whoa,

[00:32:02] Robbie Wagner: Oh. All right. No, that’s no, that was good. It adjusted.

[00:32:05] Adam Argyle: I don’t know. I like your chin and neck in the frame. That’s great.

[00:32:08] Chuck Carpenter: Maybe you see the wrinkles too much. What about Okay. Yeah, I have no

[00:32:13] Robbie Wagner: turn that up. There you go. Just give it a second.

[00:32:16] Robbie Wagner: It’ll look normal. There you go. Yeah

[00:32:18] Chuck Carpenter: Robbie is a stickler for This is

[00:32:23] Robbie Wagner: The producer has to keep you on

[00:32:25] Robbie Wagner: track with the best quality and the best,

[00:32:27] Robbie Wagner: uh,

[00:32:28] Chuck Carpenter: assumes I’m, giving him a hard time. I’m making fun of him. Which is usually

[00:32:32] Adam Argyle: you guys are a cute couple on here. You can keep bantering in front of me and like bickering though. If you like,

[00:32:37] Chuck Carpenter: Robbie, you’re just gonna have to sleep on the couch tonight. Okay? You

[00:32:42] Robbie Wagner: That’s fine.

[00:32:43] CTA: This just in! Whiskey.fund is now open for all your merch needs. That’s right, Robbie. We’re hearing reports of hats, sweaters, and T-shirts, as well as a link to join our Discord server. What’s a Discord server? [00:33:00] Just read the prompter, man. Hit subscribe. Leave us a review on your favorite podcast app and tell your friends about our broadcast. It really does help us reach more people and keeps the show growing. All right, back to your regularly scheduled programming.

[00:33:16] Chuck Carpenter: Anyway,

[00:33:17] Adam Argyle: you, did you guys see when CSS made queries from a database from an

[00:33:21] Adam Argyle: index

[00:33:22] Chuck Carpenter: no, but

[00:33:23] Adam Argyle: Oh, here’s a question. Is it data or data

[00:33:25] Robbie Wagner: Usually data.

[00:33:30] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, I say data, but I think people just, it’s kind of like radiator, radiator, right? Isn’t like, radiator isn’t technically right, but there’s vernacular, so then it’s right

[00:33:40] Adam Argyle: I think router makes more sense than router, but we say route cause we’re all,

[00:33:44] Adam Argyle: but

[00:33:45] Chuck Carpenter: Rotorooter? Like that kind of thing? I always think the

[00:33:47] Robbie Wagner: when you’re talking about websites. Because when you go, if you call everything root, you’re talking about routes and like the root of your application being like, you know, slash.

[00:33:59] Robbie Wagner: And then you’re like, [00:34:00] root, root, root, root, root, root, root. root. And I’m like, what did you even mean? You used root for all these different words.

[00:34:05] Adam Argyle: Oh,

[00:34:06] Robbie Wagner: where? Like, so I do

[00:34:08] Adam Argyle: distinguishes. Yeah.

[00:34:10] Adam Argyle: That means we’re

[00:34:10] Chuck Carpenter: Route. Router. Root. I

[00:34:16] Robbie Wagner: one that I would, uh, argue we might be right about.

[00:34:18] Chuck Carpenter: think, I think you’re on to something there. I think that’s absolutely, because if you say, oh, what’s the root?

[00:34:25] Robbie Wagner: If you

[00:34:25] Chuck Carpenter: R O O?

[00:34:29] Robbie Wagner: conversation, it’s unlikely you would be talking about a route and a route of things that aren’t technical in the same sentences. But when talking about websites, it’s a big, big thing.

[00:34:40] Adam Argyle: this, this sounds like a YouTube short that needs to happen. You know, where we’re just like, Hey dude, are you going to take the route to get to the root? And once you’re at the root, you can get to the route that takes you to the other route. I don’t know. There’s gotta be a script that would be funny,

[00:34:52] Chuck Carpenter: point. I want to regress briefly and say that, my second point was, CSS tooling mostly [00:35:00] doesn’t get funding, except for Tailwind. did they even take funding, or are they bootstrapped, or?

[00:35:05] Adam Argyle: they’re like Macklemore. Yo, they’re self made. they don’t have a depth on

[00:35:09] Adam Argyle: anybody.

[00:35:09] Chuck Carpenter: to the thrift

[00:35:10] Robbie Wagner: I mean adam has like 100 000 teslas. So I think he’s probably making

[00:35:16] Chuck Carpenter: I mean, they’re making money, but I just wonder, like, is it because of investment? And then he’s just like, Lambo, so people like my stuff. Or, is

[00:35:25] Robbie Wagner: think it was investment a while long time ago But I think now it’s all just like people buy in the ui library stuff

[00:35:32] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, and then it’s like lifetime access, and then it’s sort of like, but if you want the next thing, upgrade your lifetime

[00:35:38] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, i’ve paid them three times so far and we’ll probably continue to do so

[00:35:42] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. I have logged into the account where you paid them three times so far.

[00:35:46] Robbie Wagner: although, the big problem is it’s all Next. js, which now no one can use because it’s not an acceptable thing anymore. But, all that aside,

[00:35:56] Robbie Wagner: we should do it in Astro

[00:35:58] Adam Argyle: get canceled. I mean I [00:36:00] saw all his employees were like, I do not reflect things My employer says but then I saw Sundar did the same thing and I’m like, dang it. Do I have to do this, too?

[00:36:07] Robbie Wagner: I just like to stir the pot. I tend to think that, like, It doesn’t really matter what your views are you should be able to express them and you shouldn’t be cancelled

[00:36:16] Robbie Wagner: for them for saying a thing once like

[00:36:18] Chuck Carpenter: Well, now we just got cancelled, so thank you, Robbie. But I will say that. I will say,

[00:36:23] Robbie Wagner: I have to condemn him to be not cancelled.

[00:36:26] Chuck Carpenter: Jason Freid and DHH had their thing a few years ago where, like, we don’t want politics in our business. We’re just trying to do business. And, we accept folks personal politics. We don’t want that in the business.

[00:36:39] Chuck Carpenter: It, , isn’t reflective of our goals. It’s, like, all of those things. And I do think that that, like, incredibly muddies the water. So it’s a little bit like separate the art from the artist, but it is also a little bit of like, if you dig into all kinds of like famous rich people or just businesses in general, there’s certain things that you’re kind of [00:37:00] not going to like, and then we’ve become a culture of like, Oh, this is owned by, you know, Chick fil a is an open on Sundays and they hate gays, so I don’t like their chicken anymore, but I actually do like their chicken and their waffle fries.

[00:37:13] Chuck Carpenter: So which, you

[00:37:14] Robbie Wagner: only when they’re free though

[00:37:16] Chuck Carpenter: Well, especially when they’re free, but, you know, do I not buy that anymore? Do I not utilize, like, the best software because the dude who was part of creating it is, I mean, I don’t know, he’s not murdering people. If they’re not murdering people and they have a personal opinion, I don’t, it’s, it’s

[00:37:34] Robbie Wagner: it also depends what your position is like as the ceo You should just probably keep your mouth shut about most

[00:37:43] Chuck Carpenter: You probably, he should also, that’s true. Like I don’t think that politics belongs in business, just like religion. But if you open your mouth, I guess there are repercussions.

[00:37:54] Adam Argyle: damn that got heavy. We went from wiener diapers to to that

[00:37:59] Chuck Carpenter: was given [00:38:00] in a moment

[00:38:00] Chuck Carpenter: where I maybe was This episode is sponsored

[00:38:03] Robbie Wagner: by Blue Sky.

[00:38:05] Chuck Carpenter: this episode is sponsored by Vercel. Because for one, that fucker owes me an interview on this mediocre podcast with my

[00:38:14] Adam Argyle: His secretary drank the booze dude, you know, just

[00:38:17] Chuck Carpenter: Is one of them.

[00:38:18] Robbie Wagner: What if, what if he actually didn’t even know, like he wasn’t getting the notifications and his, yeah, his assistant got the whiskey, drank it all and said, oh, he can’t make it

[00:38:28] Robbie Wagner: today.

[00:38:28] Chuck Carpenter: can’t make

[00:38:28] Chuck Carpenter: it. Yeah. I mean, that’s a good, that’s a good pull.

[00:38:32] Robbie Wagner: Which, if that’s the case, that’s kind of awesome. I would love that, but

[00:38:36] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. Yeah. I’d accept that as a good explanation of like, hey guys, cuz he’s been on tons of podcasts. Like, I don’t know what about us specifically. I think it’s

[00:38:46] Adam Argyle: He’d get on Trump’s podcast. We know that now.

[00:38:50] Robbie Wagner: Mm hmm. Yeah, maybe a guest on Joe Rogan’s show as well.

[00:38:56] Chuck Carpenter: I mean, okay, but, nevermind. I’m going to start [00:39:00] drinking. Like, I mean, Bernie has been on Joe Rogan’s podcast, right? Bernie Sanders, not just Trump. Like, let’s not, you know, cast a singular side.

[00:39:11] Robbie Wagner: I’ve never listened to it and honestly, sorry, I’m cutting you right off, but I want to,

[00:39:16] Robbie Wagner: I want to uh, listen to Trump’s episode because everyone has been like, this made me want to vote for him. And I’m like, what the fuck? Like, what could have been said in this episode? I now need to listen to it and find out.

[00:39:28] Chuck Carpenter: I do think information is good. I mean, I think you should get information from all sides of the argument, regardless of, you know, where your feelings are. It’s good to kind of understand where others perspective is coming from, so

[00:39:42] Adam Argyle: Agree. That’s always my number one question. I’m like, Hey, tell me what you hope he does that, you know, just tell me your hopes and dreams with, with your

[00:39:49] Adam Argyle: vote. Like, I’m just curious where you’re if that’s the best thing, I mean, you know, what’s done is done. So, I really hope it works out, you know, overall. him speaking always seems a [00:40:00] little like dumb. I would almost say like JD Vance has come off more like eloquent and focused on on what he’s trying to say but I don’t

[00:40:08] Robbie Wagner: Well that’s a totally different skill that I don’t have of being like, Alright, no prompter, no notes, like, Be, , someone interesting that, you know, I would want to listen to. I would fail at that, like, I think there’s a,

[00:40:23] Chuck Carpenter: I think you’re in the wrong

[00:40:24] Robbie Wagner: There’s a subset of people that are like very good and charismatic and can say everything and spin it well just because you can’t do that doesn’t necessarily mean That like all of your ideas are wrong.

[00:40:37] Robbie Wagner: You’re just like on the spot. You don’t shine, you know

[00:40:40] Robbie Wagner: Like you just need

[00:40:41] Chuck Carpenter: society. Right, but that’s not modern society. You need, I mean, in many professions, even if you want to be a technologist online, streaming or doing podcasts and everything else, I think you need, to be able to evoke your points and, ask good

[00:40:57] Robbie Wagner: Yeah and be entertaining

[00:40:59] Chuck Carpenter: [00:41:00] Yeah, to a degree, because

[00:41:01] Robbie Wagner: yeah, that’s why I don’t stream like I don’t I don’t feel like I could code and like be You Engaging while coding. I’d just be like typing and be like cool. You’re watching what I’m

[00:41:11] Chuck Carpenter: I fucked up again. Oh, I fucked up again. Back, back, back, back, back, backspace. Yeah, because even when I pair program, my programming goes down like 50%. 100%.

[00:41:21] Robbie Wagner: It’s the old saying that that my grandpa used to say he’s like one boy is one boy Two boys is a half a boy and three boys is no boys at all Yeah,

[00:41:36] Adam Argyle: Oh, sometimes I think like shotgun debugging or pair programming though. It’s like, uh, I might be conceptually going slower, but the checks and balances are way better than TypeScript. Like we kind of try to attribute TypeScript as if there is a healthy person over your shoulder, right? This is like, that’s why he’s called co pilot.

[00:41:51] Adam Argyle: We try to convince you that they’re agents sitting next to you, peacefully, not breathing sweet nothings in your But [00:42:00] like kind of the reality is an actual human there. you may go slower. So like TypeScript, , tries to pitch you that you’re, I don’t know. Anyway, but the slower that they go, it’s more that you’re catching.

[00:42:08] Adam Argyle: You have dual perspectives co authoring. And I think that’s, what’s cool where it’s like co pilot is not co authoring. It’s auto completing. And what you need is someone to Co author with you to really suss out the realities of the potentials of the intent of the script. Not the realities of the, the script as it’s, , purely theoretically written, you know, to TypeScript where it’s like doing deep insights in this sort of like edge case analysis, where it’s like when two people repair programming, we’re high level, we’re almost at the opposite side.

[00:42:38] Adam Argyle: When I’m writing TypeScript, I’m. Down deep, I’m typing stuff that maybe it’s, it’s a string. It’s like, it’s a type of string. Yeah. But I’m like that type isn’t good enough. I need to give something more specific, whatever. Right. That’s like, that’s really down in the weeds, but when you’re pair programming with someone, you’re in a higher level space.

[00:42:55] Adam Argyle: The code is actually just an implementation detail of your you’re not coexisting together, but you’re like mind [00:43:00] melding into this moment of the manifestation of an algorithm. I’ve always really liked it. , I do agree that like on the surface, it can feel slower, but I feel like the output of it is really strong.

[00:43:10] Chuck Carpenter: agree with your point. Overall, I think you make a very great point in that when you’re pairing, you’re not trying to accelerate your output. Right? And it doesn’t matter that like whatever you’re putting out in the moment, you’re you can’t type, you can’t whatever else. But you are bringing a completely new perspective into what you’re trying to address, usually are asking the pair, not because like, Oh, I’m doing my thing.

[00:43:34] Chuck Carpenter: And I’m creating a signup form. And I’ve done this a million times. And I kind of know what’s up. Why don’t you pair and join me on that like that doesn’t happen. It’s usually like let’s pair. I don’t know. I’m thinking this direction.

[00:43:44] Robbie Wagner: could if you’re trying to, if you’re the senior and you’re trying to be like, Hey, come learn how I did this,

[00:43:50] Robbie Wagner: the opposite pairing, you know,

[00:43:52] Robbie Wagner: but anyway, continue.

[00:43:53] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. Yeah. And and that still exists in that like they drive and you [00:44:00] observe and you’re just trying to like help them through a thing. That’s true. I think there is multiple facets. It’s like you’re a junior. I’m here to just kind of like Be on your shoulder if you want my help, but no problem.

[00:44:12] Chuck Carpenter: And then conversely you have the pairing or mob programming. Mob programming can be really fun in your team when you like have a big challenge and nobody’s really clear. on what direction you want to go. And you’re like, live whiteboarding to a degree. Or you’re like, live, like, I don’t know, we’re just trying to figure this thing out.

[00:44:28] Chuck Carpenter: Not sure. This is what I was thinking. Oh, Adam was thinking this other thing. And, Hot Dog Diaper was thinking something else. And like, I, hadn’t considered that perspective. Like, let’s, let’s fly through a few of those.

[00:44:41] Robbie Wagner: This is somewhat maybe related to, you know how everyone says like, the best way to get the best code advice is to just post something you know is wrong and wait for people to come

[00:44:53] Robbie Wagner: correct you.

[00:44:54] Chuck Carpenter: you. Yeah, yeah. That’s the old school stack overflow trick

[00:44:58] Adam Argyle: Wait, Blue Sky, we need to start doing

[00:44:59] Robbie Wagner: [00:45:00] Yeah, but I wonder if it’s like, if that’s like tied in your brain of like, that’s what happens when you’re pairing or mobbing too.

[00:45:11] Robbie Wagner: It’s not that you’re like trying to do that. Be that like, oh, you’re wrong kind of thing, but you’re just, it’s easier to see someone else make the mistake. Then when you’re doing it, you’re in the zone. You’re not like paying attention to what you’re doing as much, you know.

[00:45:24] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, I think that’s fair. It’s another perspective overall.

[00:45:28] Chuck Carpenter: I think what we say is the exercise is worthwhile regardless of the

[00:45:33] Robbie Wagner: Wait, you’re supposed to exercise. Listen,

[00:45:43] Adam Argyle: This is a

[00:45:44] Chuck Carpenter: Yes, yes, this is very heavy.

[00:45:47] Robbie Wagner: Taco Bell, the Taco Bell

[00:45:48] Chuck Carpenter: liquid.

[00:45:50] Robbie Wagner: is going to be demolished in two days.

[00:45:55] Robbie Wagner: I don’t know what I’m going to do.

[00:45:56] Adam Argyle: Is there any cool mural art inside? Did you see that [00:46:00] panic guy this guy’s video his I think it was like a ted talk Oh, it wasn’t a ted talk. So, do you know panic the company that does uh, They’ve made a couple games. They have the handheld uh video game that has this the wheel or it’s like a lever

[00:46:12] Robbie Wagner: one, the one I’m going to be sending to

[00:46:14] Robbie Wagner: Chuck.

[00:46:15] Adam Argyle: playdate the playdate Yeah, okay.

[00:46:18] Adam Argyle: So

[00:46:18] Chuck Carpenter: yeah, yeah, you haven’t sent that yet?

[00:46:20] Adam Argyle: You

[00:46:20] Robbie Wagner: I have not sent it yet. I’m bad

[00:46:21] Adam Argyle: Did y’all trade Banjo for Playdate?

[00:46:24] Chuck Carpenter: No, no, I mean, just coincidentally,

[00:46:27] Robbie Wagner: I

[00:46:27] Robbie Wagner: bought the playdate or pre ordered it like years before it came out and then I was like, you know group Quad Z like never getting it whatever so I got it way later and was like, I don’t really care about this anymore So I’ve never opened it. So I was like, well Chuck you can have it. I don’t need it like

[00:46:45] Robbie Wagner: So I’m gonna send it to him

[00:46:48] Chuck Carpenter: uh, that’s going to be a gift for my son for Christmas because he’s really into gaming, he has a Switch, he does some, , iPad stuff, but

[00:46:55] Robbie Wagner: Hopefully, he’s not watching right now

[00:46:57] Robbie Wagner: cuz then

[00:46:57] Chuck Carpenter: Heh. yeah, he’s not, I can assure [00:47:00] you. There’s too many fucks in this show for him to watch on a regular basis. He has seen it.

[00:47:04] Chuck Carpenter: I just, I put it up on YouTube before because he likes some YouTube streamers and I was like, that’s on YouTube. And he’s like, what? You’re famous. And I’m like, absolutely. I am famous.

[00:47:17] Robbie Wagner: You listen to our, uh, the episode changelog posted of us?

[00:47:22] Adam Argyle: did,

[00:47:23] Chuck Carpenter: some of

[00:47:23] Robbie Wagner: Jared was like, Chuck said we could bleep him, so here we go.

[00:47:27] Chuck Carpenter: And they did. And they did

[00:47:29] Adam Argyle: It was record bleeps, right? He was like, I think we have a record number of

[00:47:32] Chuck Carpenter: That’s okay. I mean, I re I respect, I respect their format. I respect, like I asked like, if you’re gonna post it, I said, A lot of fucks. Is that cool? And they were like, can we bleep you? And I was like, you do you like, I have no problem with that.

[00:47:46] Adam Argyle: You know the

[00:47:46] Adam Argyle: FG scale, right?

[00:47:49] Chuck Carpenter: No. Is that a guitar thing or something? I don’t

[00:47:52] Adam Argyle: No. Oh shit. I’m so happy I get to teach you this. Okay. So here, this is even could be part of the title, I guess, because so it’s like, is, is cereal soup. [00:48:00] And why did we give so many FGs this episode? FGs are fucks given so you just mentioned that like we’ve already given out a lot of fucks given and so like the kind of the idea is like every day and every person each has a limited number of fucks to spend and you’re either the type of person that has a ton of them, which means you’re really concerned about stuff.

[00:48:19] Adam Argyle: You’re always busy. Putting your nose into things, you’re trying to control everything. You have a lot of fgs to spend. And then you definitely know people that are like chill. And they’re like, I don’t have a lot of fgs to spend, so I’m not gonna spend them here. But it comes in really important when you’re talking about like software and stuff.

[00:48:30] Adam Argyle: ‘cause people have a butting head about like, this is a button. And someone else will be like, that’s not a button, that’s a link or whatever, right? And you’re like, okay, uh, well that one actually has a correct answer, but whatever. You’ll have a scenario where people like butt heads.

[00:48:41] Adam Argyle: And then you’d be like, how many FGs do you give this?

[00:48:43] Adam Argyle: And the other person would be like, dude, this is like a five FG. I’ll spend five FGs on this. And the other person’s like, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa. I was only like one FG that I thought it was a link. So if you’re really sure it’s a button, it sounds like you’re really sure. but yeah, so you just have like, this is like a way to communicate how important something is to you.

[00:48:57] Adam Argyle: It’s also like a way to say like, what kind of [00:49:00] personality type of view? Some people are born with a hell of a lot of fucks to give and other people are born with not very many. And you can see it

[00:49:06] Adam Argyle: manifest in their day to day life choices.

[00:49:08] Adam Argyle: The

[00:49:08] Chuck Carpenter: here we go. where do you think I lie on the FG scale?

[00:49:12] Adam Argyle: Uh, I feel like you got a decent amount of flex to give. You give them out pretty freely, but you give them out chilly, chill, chill, Lee, that’s not a word, but I said it twice though, to try to

[00:49:21] Adam Argyle: hope

[00:49:21] Chuck Carpenter: You did, you

[00:49:22] Adam Argyle: second time.

[00:49:23] Chuck Carpenter: have another.

[00:49:25] Adam Argyle: so that’s nice. Yeah. You give, you give chill Fgs, there you go.

[00:49:28] Chuck Carpenter: FGs, but not a ton. I’d give him out chill,

[00:49:31] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, I, I feel like I don’t have a ton, but I am not chill about them.

[00:49:36] Robbie Wagner: I’m very opinionated

[00:49:38] Chuck Carpenter: I’ve worked with Robby in a

[00:49:39] Robbie Wagner: when, whenever, yeah, usually I’m even keel until it’s a thing I don’t agree with. And then no,

[00:49:46] Robbie Wagner: it’s,

[00:49:46] Chuck Carpenter: then he will wear you down. Robby is very good at wearing you down. He’ll

[00:49:51] Adam Argyle: He’s got a big tailwind FG.

[00:49:53] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah.

[00:49:54] Chuck Carpenter: Oh, for sure.

[00:49:54] Robbie Wagner: I’m fighting, I’ve been fighting that battle at work since I started my job almost two years now.[00:50:00]

[00:50:01] Chuck Carpenter: I can understand why you’d want to get rid of it, to a degree. Like, it’s not cool, but is it not working anymore? That would be my,

[00:50:08] Robbie Wagner: well, how deep you want me to go on this? So one of the problems

[00:50:13] Robbie Wagner: is Amazon scans everything to be like, Hey, this is a third party CDN. You shouldn’t use that. So like a lot of our jQuery depths we pull in are from an old CDN link. And so all of those had to be changed. we had uh, jQuery, uh, what was it called, I forget, it’s one of the jQuery UI things, but it was for taking a text area and like, you know, dragging it and resizing it, like jQuery resizable or something. And I was like, yo. Text areas are already resizable. What the fuck are we doing? Why do we need a plugin for this? and so delete that. Like, it’s just stuff that was, it’s crufty. It’s like, it’s not inherently bad. Some of it may be useful. I don’t, I’m not a jQuery hater per se, but it’s like, just think about it.

[00:50:59] Robbie Wagner: A [00:51:00] lot of it can be removed

[00:51:01] Robbie Wagner: pretty easily, and that should be done if it can be easily removed.

[00:51:04] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, like if it’s doing something that is natively available to you, maybe consider,

[00:51:11] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. jQuery slider. That’s a range input, dog.

[00:51:14] Robbie Wagner: Just, uh, replace that.

[00:51:16] Adam Argyle: you meant slider. You meant slider like range. Oh, dang. I was like, are we going to talk about carousels? Cause

[00:51:21] Adam Argyle: Holy crap. That’s like a

[00:51:22] Chuck Carpenter: slick. Wait, wait, wait, we can have a follow up episode with you and Wheeler and slick carousel.

[00:51:28] Chuck Carpenter: talk about it.

[00:51:29] Adam Argyle: fun.

[00:51:30] Chuck Carpenter: based originally.

[00:51:36] Adam Argyle: I’ve been building carousels for like months now. and the stuff we’re working on is like super sick. Like imagine you just have like a horizontal carousel and it says like horror movies and there’s a whole bunch of movie titles inside of it.

[00:51:47] Adam Argyle: They’re focusable. You know, you’ve already done the work where like you can keyboard in, but the bummer is, is when you keyboard in, you have to keyboard past 25 titles before you can get down to comedy underneath horror. Enter the CSS carousel feature spec. So right now you’ve [00:52:00] got like a scroll snapping, horizontal scroller.

[00:52:02] Adam Argyle: You can, with a CSS selector target scroll buttons on there and give them, , content just like a pseudo element and they appear. So you can put a custom icon inside of this scroll button. And now you have scroll buttons that appear next to. Your scroller, you can use anchor positioning to put them inside the scroller, outside the scroller, up on top, down below, together on the right, together on the left, together in the middle, whatever you want.

[00:52:25] Adam Argyle: It’s like the world’s your oyster. So you’re already, now you have scroll buttons, right? And they’re accessible. They do all the things where they fade in and out when

[00:52:31] Adam Argyle: you’re at the beginning and

[00:52:32] Chuck Carpenter: accessibility when I think you should

[00:52:34] Chuck Carpenter: highlight that that the point isn’t visual when it’s accessibility. I think we have to get behind that

[00:52:40] Robbie Wagner: Like, even if you for some reason This sounds like it does a lot of shit already. But if for some reason you wanted it to look a little different, you should still use Like the stuff that you’re is accessible and the way to do it like all the right elements and everything And then just restyle a little bit if you want that because if you do

[00:52:55] Adam Argyle: So that’s the browser is going to

[00:52:57] Robbie Wagner: No one can use it.

[00:52:58] Adam Argyle: focusable. Yeah, [00:53:00] that all the work is there and then you just get to come and install it. So here’s even the things like when you make a carousel, do the buttons go before the focusable content or after it? And what if you have little markers at the bottom, the little dots or thumbnails, do the buttons focus order after or before that?

[00:53:14] Adam Argyle: What if you don’t want to give a shit because you don’t have any fucks to give, then you just say, Hey browser, Stick it in the right place because I don’t want to deal with this. I don’t want my library to have to deal

[00:53:23] Robbie Wagner: What is the

[00:53:24] Robbie Wagner: right do you know the right What’s

[00:53:26] Chuck Carpenter: What’s the default place?

[00:53:28] Adam Argyle: I think it’s after, but honestly, yeah, I don’t remember. It’s gone back and forth a lot. And so that’s kind of the thing is there’s like a, why are you like WAI, ARIA patterns and they’ve got like advice on it. but that’s kind of one of the things it’s like, we’re kind of taking all of the advice that we can and we’re building that into the Chrome reports it accurately to screen readers and so your accessibility tree is accurate per what all the stuff is in there.

[00:53:49] Adam Argyle: and we’re going to do all the ahead of time work so that this thing can just Do the right thing for you out of, but you don’t have to worry about what comes first. , we’ll make sure it’s the right thing, but yeah, the second feature after buttons is the markers at the bottom. So [00:54:00] dots, it’ll make a little dot or a number or a title, like for tabs, like for sections or thumbnails for every scroll snap child or other things.

[00:54:09] Adam Argyle: It doesn’t even have to be the thing that snaps. You can just target any child and be like, generate a marker for this. And it’ll be like, okay. And it puts them all in group for you and another pseudo element that you could use anchor positioning and put it on top, put it on the bottom, turn them into boxes, turn them into squares, turn them into the whole thing.

[00:54:25] Adam Argyle: The world’s your oyster. It’s really exciting. And then your arrow keys work inside of there. You tab in your arrows work. It’s the whole nine is all in there. And we have. the ability to toggle inertness from CSS. So it’s called interactivity colon inert, which was previously a HTML only feature, and it was an attribute and it nullified the entire tree.

[00:54:44] Adam Argyle: You put it somewhere in the tree, just bam, every child forever is inert. There’s no focusing anything inside of there,

[00:54:50] Chuck Carpenter: So this is an HTML specific thing, or this is a

[00:54:54] Adam Argyle: This one’s a CSS one. So the CSS is going to be able to more

[00:54:58] Chuck Carpenter: it is.

[00:54:59] Chuck Carpenter: [00:55:00] CSS kind of taking accessibility to a degree is an interesting

[00:55:04] Adam Argyle: It already was with display none versus visibility. And yeah, I mean, that’s kind of one of the things is a lot of people push back and they’re like, so you said shouldn’t have to do with accessibility. And we’re like, it already does. You can change the color of the text to white on a white background.

[00:55:16] Adam Argyle: It’s now illegible. Um, there’s like Oh, right. Yeah, because the fallacy is that accessibility only has to do with like blind people or deaf people and you’re not, yeah, there’s a

[00:55:27] Robbie Wagner: It’s a huge, huge range of

[00:55:29] Chuck Carpenter: That’s true. That’s a great point. have two questions. One, what’s up with that shirt where it looks like CSS like in a skateboard font or some shit?

[00:55:37] Adam Argyle: Yeah, this is from project Wallace. They do a CSS insights and he’s made a really sick shirt. And I was like, well, I must wear it. I think he also made it from CSS day where I MC’d and I kind of did a, I didn’t mean to, I was just trying to get people pumped, but I was like, CSS, CSS. And I did this like cheering thing.

[00:55:53] Adam Argyle: And then it kind of sounded really culty at one point when people weren’t cheering with me and I think this shirt is inspired [00:56:00] by that. I don’t Also,

[00:56:01] Chuck Carpenter: do you own not black shirts?

[00:56:04] Adam Argyle: No. One I’ve won it’s black and green checkered. I just got it’s from packs was special. And then I look like a lumberjack.

[00:56:13] Adam Argyle: It’s my, I have one lumberjack shirt and that’s it. It’s a nerd pack

[00:56:16] Adam Argyle: shirt.

[00:56:17] Chuck Carpenter: black and green isn’t a buffalo check. I don’t know, maybe it is, I guess, but it’s not traditional. There’s no maple syrup

[00:56:23] Adam Argyle: Yeah. I’m like Doug from, uh, you know, like I, I got like a very simple wardrobe. That’s all, all black teas, black pants. I have like one. Yeah.

[00:56:33] Robbie Wagner: I tried that for a while. had a lot of the same things. I still have a lot. I have like the same pants, I’ve like five of the same pants, but I’ve stopped trying to do the shirts. I just have like, ‘cause I wanna wear, like I have the syntax shirt, I have like some of our shirts. I have like. There’s a bunch of different colored stuff, and can’t do that, but I loved the simplicity of like, you know, you basically wear the same thing all the time, and it’s like, Is that the same thing he wore yesterday? I’m not sure, [00:57:00] but I’m not going to ask. Like,

[00:57:02] Adam Argyle: Yep. It’s easy for everybody.

[00:57:05] Chuck Carpenter: Easy as easy. Turns out.

[00:57:08] Robbie Wagner: I do have a question about like, you know, we dropped all that about the CSS carousel stuff and like, you know, accessibility and whatever. I still feel like, and I haven’t,

[00:57:18] Robbie Wagner: you know, I, well,

[00:57:21] Adam Argyle: I feel like chicken tonight. Oh, that’s what, sorry.

[00:57:25] Robbie Wagner: I feel like no one gives accessibility or CSS or most of the time, HTML, like the time of day at all, like back to the JavaScript or CSS thing, I feel like there’s so

[00:57:38] Robbie Wagner: much new stuff coming out in CSS that I can’t possibly learn at all without

[00:57:42] Robbie Wagner: like,

[00:57:42] Adam Argyle: neither.

[00:57:43] Robbie Wagner: like, I feel like college should have a course on just CSS.

[00:57:47] Robbie Wagner: Like, they try to do, like, you know, a web dev course, and that’s like, alright, well, we’ll tell you what CSS is, but then you can figure it out. I feel like we’re at the point where there’s so much in CSS, it should be its own course. [00:58:00] So,

[00:58:00] Robbie Wagner: I, think we should do that, and I think, uh, we can all teach it.

[00:58:04] Chuck Carpenter: want an addendum upon that for post college professionals, which is like We’ve, uh, gone back and rubber banded around like there was a separation of concerns and they used to be like subject matter experts along like different levels of it. So it would be like designers kind of do HTML as well so they could structure the document correctly and maybe they know a little CSS but the front end devs know the advanced CSS and we can get there.

[00:58:34] Chuck Carpenter: And then they know some JavaScript and then like. We’re getting our JSON APIs and then like it all kind of comes together. And now that has like heavily leaned towards the application logic in the browser. So now we’ve forgotten about, oh, becoming CSS experts because now, you know, tailwind solves it for us.

[00:58:54] Chuck Carpenter: And does to a degree, but that abstraction, like, kind of [00:59:00] takes away some of that developed expertise, and companies aren’t prioritizing it. And I think in that, and a lack of, semantic HTML being a first class citizen anymore means that, accessibility has been thrown out the window.

[00:59:16] Chuck Carpenter: that I think is a massive problem.

[00:59:18] Adam Argyle: Yep. These things are hard. There’s been a couple, couple of people have said some really profound things for me over past couple of years. One of them was, uh, someone was writing, Oh crap. It’s like a procedural code. I think it starts with P. What’s this language? it’s very low level.

[00:59:32] Adam Argyle: Dang it. This wasn’t supposed to be a quiz.

[00:59:34] Adam Argyle: Uh, anyway, this person

[00:59:35] Adam Argyle: was like, if you can,

[00:59:37] Adam Argyle: oh, not Pascal, but it’s Good. Good. the answer.

[00:59:40] Adam Argyle: Oh, sure. Sure. That sounds like it. That’s a great, that usually works, right? Mm hmm. It’s been working for me, clearly.

[00:59:46] Robbie Wagner: I’m trying to think of any other languages to start with P.

[00:59:48] Chuck Carpenter: Pee

[00:59:50] Adam Argyle: It starts with an A, it’s assembly. Hey, it worked. I took a ha ha this person’s like, ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. possibly.

[00:59:57] Adam Argyle: Gotcha, gotcha.

[00:59:59] Chuck Carpenter: [01:00:00] Yeah.

[01:00:00] Adam Argyle: but yeah, this person’s like I’ve, I’ve been writing assembly. I’m trying to, I’m teaching these courses on a blah, blah, blah. And he’s like, I want you to go write a CSS grid the other day. My God, it’s way harder than assembly. He’s like some of the hardest problems that I’m solving in assembly, are half as difficult as a responsive grid layout.

[01:00:16] Adam Argyle: And I was like, I love that this person said that. So then another person says they’ve been building, , native apps. That’s pretty much how they cut their teeth where a lot of us cut our teeth early web or web centric in general. Anyway, this person is transitioning into the web. And, uh, they’re obviously a talented, software engineer because they’re building native apps, which is basically, those have been typed since the beginning, right?

[01:00:36] Adam Argyle: These are, these are real apps get compiled into little executables. Anyway. So this person is transitioning into the web and after all, so they are a good scripter, but what they’re learning is that HTML is the hardest language. They’re like, basically, this is like a seasoned engineer saying. I’m still learning HTML every day.

[01:00:55] Adam Argyle: I think this is because it’s so many subjective choices that I have to make where [01:01:00] scripting doesn’t have the subjective choices. CSS deals with more than just subjective choices. It deals with multiple consumers of various size, of various capability, of various, all these things.

[01:01:10] Adam Argyle: And CSS is thrashed around in the most chaotic space that’s ever existed. And HTML is in the same scenario where we’re all consuming this thing. And we have high expectations So it’s like, this guy’s like, I’m coming from native. Looking at JavaScript is easy. HTML is hard. Why aren’t y’all focusing on it more?

[01:01:26] Adam Argyle: Why isn’t there more education about HTML and CSS? This shit is super duper hard. And I’m just listening. I’m like, I love that this person is willing to say that because that’s not the common phrase. On the web, we all generally be like I made the color red with color red. this shit is easy And i’m like, oh, yeah Well yesterday I combined a time-based animation with the scroll-based animation so that they could both affect the same Transform value without stomping on each other’s feet.

[01:01:50] Adam Argyle: What the fuck did you Oh you made

[01:01:53] Adam Argyle: The

[01:01:53] Adam Argyle: color red Oh That’s really nice

[01:01:55] Adam Argyle: of

[01:01:55] Adam Argyle: you

[01:01:55] Adam Argyle: That’s really

[01:01:55] Adam Argyle: cool

[01:01:56] Adam Argyle: You made the color red anyway,

[01:01:57] Adam Argyle: but it’s like this wild disrespect for [01:02:00] this thing, because of just almost like the way you write it, like the declarative nature, the fact that it starts with declarative immediately makes people think it’s not powerful.

[01:02:09] Adam Argyle: It’s just like this strange thing that our communities continue to do and our educational systems and our own companies continue to do, even though they were all playing a part to make an airplane together. It doesn’t matter who is doing like, okay. It does matter though at a software company. They’re like, Oh, you just paint the plane.

[01:02:25] Adam Argyle: Oh, that’s actually just kind of, and I’m like, well, hold on. Wait, wait, wait. I just, cause I write CSS doesn’t mean I just walk up and fucking paint the plane, dude. Like you’re completely misunderstanding. They actually just stacked all of the chairs for me inside the main hole. I had to write a layout to put all the chairs in the right spot with the right gaps that have to do with user expectations and make sure that the eye level is at the TVs, man.

[01:02:47] Adam Argyle: I’m like, you cannot just call me the painter of the plane. This is really rude. Anyways, I keep going. I’m going

[01:02:52] Chuck Carpenter: I think

[01:02:52] Adam Argyle: because your finger’s

[01:02:53] Chuck Carpenter: a drink real quick. And I would say that CSS is both declarative and imperative. And the second thing is [01:03:00] CSS is the punk rock of web development. You

[01:03:05] Adam Argyle: I’m so happy to hear you say that.

[01:03:08] Chuck Carpenter: know why? Because it’s like the whole three chord Monty bullshit with like whatever, like punk rock is so simple because it’s like basic chords and

[01:03:16] Chuck Carpenter: thrashing away and whatever else and tell people really dive into it.

[01:03:19] Chuck Carpenter: So.

[01:03:20] Adam Argyle: This is a good point. Yeah. On the surface, it seems extremely simple, but then you’re like, cool. You go do it. , great. I’ll talk to you when you’re all done making your first punk album.

[01:03:29] Robbie Wagner: I think if you were like, you know, hey, make this like Out of just like one div and CSS, make like a transformer versus give me a sorting algorithm. There’s one that you can probably figure out a lot easier than the other. And like, I’ll just leave it at that.

[01:03:47] Adam Argyle: so it’s like, there’s other industries where like building homes, The electricians and the architects, everybody sort of seems to have more of a mutual respect for each other. And the web doesn’t do that for some reason. We have a [01:04:00] hierarchy like this, like weird and we continue it.

[01:04:01] Adam Argyle: , we could destroy it at any day that we wanted to, we could destroy this hierarchy of bullshit and just say that we’re all equal participants in building web experiences, but we’re not, people want to feel better than other people. there’s like this is like born in our, blood and yeah.

[01:04:15] Chuck Carpenter: I think a decade ago this happened very strongly. I mean, I have been a part of that. I’ve been on teams where the front end is perceived as being like, make it pretty and simple. And I feel like that rubber band effect is where we’re at now.

[01:04:32] Adam Argyle: Yeah, the front end has come back to show that it’s, you can’t take It lightly and it’s your one place to basically distinguish yourself. , I like to tell people it’s like getting in a car. let’s say I’m going to go try three cars. , one car has the dopest engine in the entire world. , the other one has, , amazing range. but it’s, uh, kind of crappy inside. And the third one’s like somehow a middle of all of them, but in the interior is very nice. I’m like, I’m going to get in the one with the nice interior and basically be like, this is, I’m, I’m [01:05:00] sitting in this for long rides. I’m sitting there, right?

[01:05:01] Adam Argyle: This is what I’m going to do. This is the one I want. the fastest engine doesn’t always win, but that’s, we’re just so obsessed with that for some reason. making things comfy is hard, making things beautiful and comfortable. It takes iteration and love. It takes love Love is all you need to write good CSS

[01:05:21] Chuck Carpenter: Hehe. I wish we were doing that

[01:05:24] Robbie Wagner: I did miss out on the, uh, the HTML is for lovers sticker that on

[01:05:29] Robbie Wagner: rehab. I need to get one. of those. Oh, you

[01:05:30] Robbie Wagner: got

[01:05:31] Robbie Wagner: one.

[01:05:31] Chuck Carpenter: one. Yeah, it’s on my, I have two stickers on my computer right now because I was, I did not grab our own stickers. Apparently I only grabbed one. And so I have, uh, HTML is for lovers. I love that one. And then I have the wet whiskey web and whatnot, but it’s like in a soccer crest.

[01:05:50] Chuck Carpenter: And then it says the Ryan Reynolds, , fan club, cause that’s like kind of a

[01:05:55] Robbie Wagner: I can show you right now

[01:05:56] Chuck Carpenter: yeah, sure.

[01:05:58] Chuck Carpenter: [01:06:00] do

[01:06:00] Robbie Wagner: right?

[01:06:01] Chuck Carpenter: focus. It was. Oh, it’s coming back.

[01:06:03] Adam Argyle: Yeah.

[01:06:04] Chuck Carpenter: to get jerseys made with that crest on it. I think that would be dope, so we’ll see.

[01:06:09] Adam Argyle: I like it.

[01:06:10] Adam Argyle: Anyway, thanks for letting me rant. I ranted a couple times pretty furiously. You could just call me Furiosa, the web Furiosa. , but yeah, like I really think that the fact that we’re competing against each other, It’s like, why the hell are we doing that? We’re all like, the way that we all win is if people use our shit.

[01:06:25] Adam Argyle: So it’s like, how about we all focus on making usable shit. And that does mean accessibility because that it just drives me nuts when people can’t consider themselves when they’re even temporarily disabled. And it’s like, almost like you’re, we’re all temporarily abled. We all feel, especially as you get older, you feel this, you fall down and you get a big fat bruise or you do something stupid.

[01:06:43] Adam Argyle: And you’re like, holy shit, I’m vulnerable.

[01:06:46] Adam Argyle: I don’t like this at all.

[01:06:47] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah.

[01:06:48] Adam Argyle: it was strong, but i’m fragile. , and so it’s like why can’t we think back to that more about how like the way that we want this, I don’t know. It just seems seems strange and self servient in a [01:07:00] lot of ways and a lot of people Well, a lot of people also care more about their career trajectory than they do producing actually something good So that’s also something so it’s like those people are going to do what it takes to it’s like,

[01:07:11] Adam Argyle: okay, that is just on a different, different

[01:07:14] Adam Argyle: meteor than I am.

[01:07:14] Adam Argyle: Yeah.

[01:07:15] Robbie Wagner: accessibility should be a should improve your career. Like it should be, , like, I feel like that should be a thing anyone could do. If you come into a new app and you’re like, Oh yeah, this is not accessible, you know, pitch to your boss that like, Hey, this should be accessible.

[01:07:29] Robbie Wagner: Not just because like, you know, for. These certain people or whatever, just like , from even just a usability standpoint of like using, like we talked about, like, you know, the native HTML solution versus like thousands of lines of JavaScript is going to load quicker for people that can see and click and do whatever. you should always go with the simple, like standards based solution and doing that and improving your load times, improving who can use it. Unblocking people that you may not have known you were blocking

[01:07:59] Robbie Wagner: [01:08:00] should always be like Yeah should should always like make you increase your career Like I mean, that’s it probably won’t because of this such a political game and like I don’t even know how you get promoted I’m, never gonna figure it out.

[01:08:13] Robbie Wagner: It seems like so, uh, You know, but I that’s how I feel that it should help but it maybe maybe doesn’t maybe that’s a idealized world

[01:08:22] Adam Argyle: stinking world. I mean, our votes just came in, right? We just, our country voted for someone. I was like, Whoa, I did not expect that. But it’s the same reason why I’m like, Whoa, JavaScript got 10 million for that JavaScript library project bundler thing. Holy shit. Why didn’t they do that for CSS? I’ll never know.

[01:08:36] Adam Argyle: These are questions I cannot answer with my tiny, tiny CSS brain.

[01:08:40] Chuck Carpenter: Your inability to pitch to VCs. Maybe that’s the problem. I don’t know. It’s hard to say. Wherever it comes from. It doesn’t come out of nowhere. I think people seek money and find ways to get it.

[01:08:54] Adam Argyle: Yeah,

[01:08:54] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. Maybe, maybe we need more, uh, just slap some AI labels on CSS initiatives and that’ll get [01:09:00] some money. Yeah.

[01:09:01] Adam Argyle: keep trying to, I’ve been training my own Gemini bot, internally for months now trying to make an actually good CSS AI bot. That’s for vanilla. It’s not gonna be a tail with it. There’s already plenty of tailwinds suggesting AI bots. Um,

[01:09:14] Adam Argyle: and it’s really

[01:09:15] Chuck Carpenter: gives you components with CSS. Shad

[01:09:18] Adam Argyle: Yeah. Shad and tailwind. Yeah. Which is smart. , it’s just like, you, you, it makes sense why the AI, you know, Engines are so shitty at CSS. Cause if you go search something just basic, how do I center this div? Honestly, search that the first five results are going to be garbage from stack overflow. And the AI engines like, look at these high rated, successful 15 year old good answers, I’m going to go ahead and start surfacing these to everybody.

[01:09:42] Adam Argyle: And it’s like

[01:09:42] Robbie Wagner: Yeah.

[01:09:43] Adam Argyle: wackest, most ancient solution. Yeah. exactly. Like,

[01:09:46] Chuck Carpenter: left. Float. Yeah.

[01:09:48] Robbie Wagner: Yeah.

[01:09:49] Robbie Wagner: it’s a hard problem.

[01:09:50] Adam Argyle: I’m

[01:09:50] Adam Argyle: glad y’all got a, it’s in your hearts though. I appreciate that.

[01:09:54] Robbie Wagner: yes, always. We are quite over time now. Is there anything you want to plug before we [01:10:00] end?

[01:10:00] Adam Argyle: Yeah. Try my new JavaScript library, uh, hotdog diapers, and vote

[01:10:04] Adam Argyle: for us on,

[01:10:05] Adam Argyle: uh, uh, it’s on NPM. It’s also on a, Oh shit. What’s the website where people launch all the products, product hunt. It’s on product hunt. Give us a plus one. Cause I’d like to, I’d like to go ask for a lot more money for my, my new project.

[01:10:16] Adam Argyle: I’ll make sure the sauce never falls out of your module. There you go.

[01:10:23] Chuck Carpenter: If you can get money for a hot dog diaper, I mean, that would be amazing.

[01:10:28] Adam Argyle: Sounds

[01:10:28] Chuck Carpenter: wish you luck.

[01:10:29] Adam Argyle: Valley pitch here. I

[01:10:30] Adam Argyle: love

[01:10:30] Chuck Carpenter: I’m going to give you two days to register that domain, and then I’m doing it.

[01:10:36] Adam Argyle: Ha ha ha ha.

[01:10:38] Chuck Carpenter: Alright,

[01:10:39] Chuck Carpenter: by Monday, that shit is mine.

[01:10:42] Robbie Wagner: Alright, we are done. Thanks everybody for listening. Catch you next time.

[01:10:46] Outro: You’ve been watching Whiskey Web and Whatnot. Recorded in front of a live studio audience. What the fuck are you talking about, Chuck? Enjoyed the show? Subscribe. You know, people don’t pay attention to these, right? [01:11:00] Head to whiskey.fund for merchant to join our Discord server. I’m serious, it’s like 2% of people who actually click these links. And don’t forget to leave us a five star review and tell your friends about the show. All right, dude, I’m outta here. Still got it.