Whiskey Web and Whatnot

A whiskey fueled fireside chat with your favorite web developers.


123: Hot Takes, Web Technologies, and Learning to Code with Ken Wheeler

Show Notes

Ken Wheeler is a software engineer with well over a decade of experience. He shares stories about his journey into tech, his life, and his hobbies.

Ken fell in love with coding as a kid, building his skills from QBasic to PHP and HTML. He recounts his transition from being a rap producer for a decade to stumbling upon a job listing for a web developer using Flash. After twisting the truth to get through the interview, he spent five years building local restaurant websites with Flash animations. Ken dives into some unfiltered hot takes from TypeScript to CSS and the ongoing debate of sidebar placement in VS Code. He shares his love for inferred types over explicit types, arguing in favor of TypeScript's Hindley-Milner type system.

In this episode, Ken talks to Robbie and Chuck about his thoughts on types, Tailwind and VS Code, his coding journey from QBasic to HTML as a kid, and his technique for landing his first job.

Key Takeaways

  • [00:48] - Introduction to Ken Wheeler.
  • [01:56] - A whiskey review: Basil Hayden Straight Bourbon Whiskey.
  • [19:03] - Tech hot takes.
  • [40:57] - Ken discusses his New Jersey roots and how he entered the tech field.
  • [49:51] - Chuck, Robbie, and Ken talk about cars.
  • [59:00] - Chuck’s plans to move to Italy.
  • [01:04:41] - Chuck, Robbie, and Ken discuss burgers and sandwiches.


[19:20] - “Typescript is good. It's better than Javascript.” ~ Ken Wheeler

[34:50] - “A senior at dickhead.com is not the same as a senior at Google.com.” ~ Ken Wheeler

[37:48] - “Webpack actually isn’t that hard, believe it or not, if you just dig into it.” ~ Ken Wheeler


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​[00:00:00] Robbie: What's going on, everybody? Welcome to Whiskey Web and Whatnot with myself, RobbieTheWagner and my co host as always, Charles William Carpenter III with

[00:00:16] Chuck: for the rest of this, no, no, no, for the rest of this I'm gonna be Barbie though. It's gonna be like on, yeah, on brand with Ken.

[00:00:23] Robbie: Oh, yeah, we've got a special guest today. Ken CEO of OpenAI. What?

[00:00:31] Ken: That's correct.

[00:00:32] Robbie: Cool, cool. Yeah.

[00:00:37] Chuck: for at least 12 hours. I think over this last weekend that happened.

[00:00:42] Ken: Turn the place around.

[00:00:44] Chuck: Get it on track, AGI coming.

[00:00:47] Robbie: But yeah, um, if you want to give a quick intro into who you are and what you do, Ken.

[00:00:51] Ken: Oh, uh, yeah. So I'm Ken Wheeler. I wrote a bunch of open source back in the day. some of which was helpful and, um, then, uh, I wasn't allowed to write open source anymore. Kind of pivoted to just talking shit on Twitter. I would love to write open source, but I still write code every single day. Um, and I tweet about it, but just don't really release much.

I do a bunch of talks and conferences too. So,

[00:01:18] Chuck: And you are allowed to do that.

[00:01:20] Ken: I am

[00:01:21] Chuck: Uh, I've been, uh, subject to some of your previous open source work before. I don't, I don't know if it's, I pronounce it Urkel. Yep, yep,


[00:01:30] Ken: urkel. Yeah, urkel was the shit still is really?

[00:01:33] Chuck: Yeah, a lot of people like it. I'm not sure I understand. Shut up, Siri. Um, yeah, like, uh, we've done a lot of work with Formidable in the past, and I know you used to be a Formidable.

Oh, yeah, I'll not fuck around just like you two.

[00:01:46] Ken: Yeah. Oh, look at you. You have a fancy

[00:01:48] Robbie: Mm.

[00:01:49] Chuck: yes,

[00:01:50] Ken: You have a fancy glass, I have a problem. Ha

[00:01:52] Chuck: It's a glencairn. Um, alrighty, well, it matches my hat. So, speaking of whiskey, today we're having Basil Hayden straight bourbon whiskey, non age stated, 80 proof, you man. Uh, and the mash bill is 63 percent corn, 27 percent rye, and 10 percent malted barley.

[00:02:11] Ken: Where are you getting these stats?

[00:02:12] Chuck: Uh, the internets.

[00:02:14] Ken: Oh,

[00:02:14] Robbie: he has all of them memorized for every whiskey.

[00:02:17] Chuck: I, yeah, can you imagine how bad that


[00:02:19] Ken: Do you guys drink this shit?

[00:02:21] Chuck: Uh, I have drank this shit. I drank many shits. I, uh, not literal shit, because that's disgusting, but, uh, I remember, I was a bartender when this stuff came out first, and then it was, uh, being released, the small batch collection, so it was like this, Knob Creek, Bakers and Bookers, all at the same time.

[00:02:37] Ken: uh,

[00:02:37] Chuck: I had it back in the day. It must have been


[00:02:40] Ken: what's your daily driver?

[00:02:43] Chuck: Um, I would say the things that I go for most regular, I mean I have a whiskey podcast so I have a lot of shit all the time. Every week I get new whiskeys, but um, we do Sagamore Rye a bunch, like their regular old rye, it's like 35 40, it's a pretty good one.

I'll pick up a Buffalo Trace, it's like 25 at

[00:03:06] Ken: Buffalo Trace is lovely. I drink that a lot on planes.

[00:03:09] Chuck: Yeah, it's like good, it's easy drinker, it's low cost,



[00:03:12] Robbie: it's hard to beat


[00:03:12] Chuck: high value.

[00:03:13] Robbie: for the quality.

[00:03:14] Chuck: is.

[00:03:14] Ken: a really funny thing that happens every single time I'm on a plane.

[00:03:18] Chuck: Okay.

[00:03:19] Ken: um, so I'll usually weasel my way into first class. Through a variety of techniques. And then when I do, I ask them for a red wine and a bourbon.

And most of the time they'll just bring you a red wine and a bourbon. And it's usually trace, right?

So I'm like, I'm like, yeah, red wine and a Buffalo trace. Right. But I've actually had it before where they put the fucking bourbon into the red wine.

[00:03:40] Chuck: Wow. That.

[00:03:42] Ken: I'm like, what are you doing?

[00:03:44] Chuck: Whoever wants that, like, that's the logical outcome, and that is how you end up becoming a flight attendant. No, I'm just kidding. I'm not. Yeah, I'm not. I had to make the bad joke. Okay, let's do a little tasting here before. I'm not even, you know, I barely even

had any, and I'm

[00:03:59] Ken: How do you properly taste whiskey? Cause I feel like I'm a more of a drinker than a


[00:04:04] Chuck: uh, so a couple of different things, you chew it first to,

uh, you want to, uh, just kind of chew it in your mouth a little bit, and you want to activate the salivatory glands, swallow there, then you can, you, it's like wine, actually, in many ways, I mean, I'm sure you've been to like wine


[00:04:20] Ken: The old front to back.

[00:04:21] Chuck: yeah, exactly, and, uh, you start with a little, like, breathe into your mouth, but put your nose on it,

[00:04:27] Ken: I don't think it's properly decanting straight out of the


[00:04:30] Chuck: yeah, I don't know, you know, how much oxygen does it need at that point.

So, uh, that's, that's kind of the first part, do the nose and then, yeah.

[00:04:40] Robbie: Yeah, it doesn't, it doesn't really smell like much to me. I don't know if that's because my nose is not great right now or what. But

[00:04:46] Chuck: I get a little like sweet, almost like maple y on the nose, but then it is kind of weak there. It is a lower proof whiskey, so you're going to have that happen. It always has a sort of corn leafy flavor to me. So if I was to like have


[00:05:00] Robbie: Yeah. Leafy.

[00:05:01] Chuck: and a little leafiness in


[00:05:03] Robbie: Yeah. A little bit of like bitter. Yeah. Some kind of part of the plant. That's like not the part you would want to eat. Maybe.

[00:05:12] Chuck: Depends on the plant, I guess. Uh. It does have a little bitter on the finish, like on the back of the tongue for me,

[00:05:18] Robbie: Yeah.

[00:05:19] Ken: Yeah, no, no, no. That's true. Now that you mentioned it.

[00:05:21] Chuck: yeah. You know, you can, you can also be suggestive in tasting notes and stuff too, I've found that. Like, I'll start drinking something and, you know, Robbie will be like, Oh, this kind of tastes like a Twizzler or whatever, and that, Oh, now I taste that somehow, a little

[00:05:35] Ken: Oh,

[00:05:36] Chuck: yeah.

Uh, dried apricots, I think is what you should be tasting,

if you're

[00:05:40] Robbie: That's what Chuck tastes every time he tastes any whiskey. I think his tongue's baseline is


[00:05:45] Ken: dried


[00:05:46] Chuck: Well, I also eat a handful of apricots before.

[00:05:50] Ken: Did

[00:05:50] Chuck: no, I didn't. I don't mind them, but I don't seek them out per se.


yeah, there's nothing wrong with that. Uh, dried fruits in general. It's kind of nice. You know, this whole like, you know, you get a handful of that and you go hiking. It feels very natural.

[00:06:04] Ken: it's less stingy than some of the other ones that I

[00:06:08] Chuck: Yeah. 80 proof is going to kind of be like that. This is

a little

[00:06:11] Ken: Have you ever had widow Jane?

[00:06:12] Chuck: Yes.

[00:06:13] Ken: Very tasty. Very


[00:06:15] Chuck: That's one. Is that one that you go to on the regular?

[00:06:18] Ken: Yeah,

[00:06:19] Chuck: Yeah,

[00:06:19] Ken: It's not something that I drink with regularity because you know the way that I drink, but I have like a, a nicer bottle to hold on

[00:06:25] Chuck: yeah,

[00:06:26] Ken: Like that or Jefferson. Now, do you guys smoke this shit?

[00:06:30] Chuck: smoke whiskey.

I have not. Oh, you mean like do that whole thing where you like Yeah, and I have had those like smoked cocktails before with that. Yeah, that's that's good. Pretty good.

That's an

[00:06:41] Ken: So i've had that before where like they go and they smoke the old fashioned for you,

right? So I bought the smoking thing, right? It's like a it's like a little electric thing and you like have a little torch and you rip it like a bowl kind of But then it like blows it and there's like a little like, uh Like, tube with a disk that goes on top of the cup,

[00:07:01] Chuck: mm


[00:07:01] Ken: um, and fills it up, and then you kinda let it chill there for a minute and shit, and then just the whiskey itself gets a little smoky.

It's nice. I got, like, this whole thing, it's like a fuckin dome that you can, like, put over like cheeses.

[00:07:14] Chuck: I've definitely had that like at a cocktail bar before

It's a little

[00:07:17] Ken: put it over cheeses yet. I've just, I've literally just smoked

[00:07:20] Chuck: Just smoke whiskey. Maybe you could smoke the cheeses too.

[00:07:23] Ken: Right? Smoked

[00:07:24] Robbie: Or meats,

[00:07:25] Chuck: Yeah,

[00:07:26] Robbie: smoke before you smoke the meat.

[00:07:32] Chuck: yeah, that's funny. So, I think that adds a very interesting element. And see, that's the whole thing about whiskey.

Is it like, it tastes this way, just plain, just neat. You can add a couple of drops of water. Now it tastes a little different. You can add some ice in there. You get something


[00:07:46] Ken: one second. What? Yo. I'm on a podcast right now. What are you doing? I'm

[00:07:52] Robbie: Okay.

[00:07:54] Ken: I am on this podcast for at least another 50 minutes. Stop banging on the door. What the fuck are you doing?

[00:08:02] Chuck: Kids these days, you know, no respect. You need to have an on air sign. Then you'll be set.

[00:08:07] Ken: I need an on air sign, wouldn't that be

[00:08:09] Robbie: Yeah. Um,

[00:08:09] Chuck: cool.

[00:08:10] Ken: Get that shit for the outside of the bedroom too. Who said that? Not me.

[00:08:13] Robbie: Ha ha ha ha ha ha.

[00:08:14] Chuck: On air, in air, then you're in somewhere. I don't know. You can

[00:08:18] Ken: If I'm in air, there's a problem.

[00:08:21] Robbie: ha

[00:08:25] Chuck: here. We have a highly sophisticated rating system here. It is zero to eight tentacles, zero being horrible shit. You're going to throw out eight being amazing. Now you're going to throw everything else out in the liquor cabinet. And then obviously four is just. It's fine.

It's not good. It's not bad. Whatever else. So, what, what are your feelings on this one? I know this is a regular for you, so you probably have, yeah, this, this basil, right? You're a, you're a basil,

basil bra.

[00:08:50] Ken: Wait, wait, you said zero to eight?

[00:08:52] Chuck: to eight. We're engineers, right? We're zero based indexing.

[00:08:55] Ken: No, that's fair. Oh, I don't know. Probably somewhere around a five. Maybe a six.

[00:09:00] Chuck: Yeah. Yeah. All right.

[00:09:02] Ken: It's, it's, it's, it's extremely drinkable.

[00:09:04] Chuck: yeah.

[00:09:05] Ken: You know, it's not like the finest shit on the shelf.

[00:09:09] Chuck: It's got a

[00:09:09] Ken: It's not

[00:09:10] Chuck: No, no, it's a, it's a nice bottle.

[00:09:13] Ken: I wouldn't feel bad serving it to


[00:09:15] Chuck: There you go. Yeah.

like, look nice and a little, like,

gathering, social gathering.

[00:09:20] Ken: you know, I drink whiskey like it's fucking Gatorade. So, you know, you can't just go buy bottles of Pappy and fucking hydrate with that shit.


[00:09:32] Chuck: that's

[00:09:33] Ken: why this is a daily driver


[00:09:34] Chuck: Yeah, yeah,

and Pappy's just a flex


[00:09:38] Ken: I'm just going to text my wife so this kid stops fucking running into my door. Is

[00:09:45] Chuck: Well, while you do that, Robbie can give his


[00:09:48] Robbie: um, I think this is a good bourbon y bourbon, like it's similar to Buffalo Trace in that it's like, it just like, there's nothing necessarily bad about it. It's just kind of middle of the road ish, um, little pricier than Buffalo Trace. So for that, I might lower, I'd say a five is probably good for it.

I think we did six or seven for Buffalo Trace. So I'd say five.

[00:10:12] Chuck: Yeah, Yeah, Buffalo Trace punches well above its, its weight. Yeah, and there you go. We'll just, uh, Comparing it to things like Buffalo Trace, or Weller 107, or other things that I think are like super tasty when pretty much by every time I see


[00:10:30] Ken: this above or below makers for you?

[00:10:33] Chuck: Makers is a weeded.

[00:10:35] Robbie: I think this would be above for me.

[00:10:37] Ken: I personally consider it above,

[00:10:39] Chuck: yeah, I think

[00:10:40] Ken: but you went to say below

[00:10:42] Chuck: I'm trying

to, okay, well, so I would put it below Makers 46 for sure.

Because the 46


[00:10:49] Ken: Oh, we didn't say anything about

[00:10:51] Chuck: Yeah, now plain old Makers is, is a solid one that I would not be ashamed to like pick up at, you know, pick up on the way to a party or something like that too, but this is, this is kind of fancy looking. I'm going to put this at a four. I think it's kind of equal to regular Makers for

me. it's just the, the problem here is the proofing. So Makers is 90 proof. This is 80 proof. And I want a little more punch. I want a little more hug. If I'm sipping this stuff straight. but I mean, you can. Or, you want to finish the whole bottle. So, that, that's a good, that's a good fit for you then. You know, this is like, it's kind of like, you know, they have those session beers that are like 4 percent or something like that.

This is like a session whiskey.

That's that's how I feel about


[00:11:34] Ken: get in arguments with guys on the internet. Right. And they're like, you know, you post a picture, you're just enjoying a Coors light. Right. And they're like, have fun drinking the piss. You call that a fucking beer. Right. And you're like,

you're like, I am playing fucking horseshoes.

Right. I'm not going to drink six IPAs. And

[00:11:53] Chuck: Exactly. Those are the guys that I was going to say exactly that. Those are the guys that want to put like a handful of fucking hops in their

[00:11:59] Robbie: fuck that.

[00:12:00] Ken: don't get me wrong. I like IPAs. You drink a sixer IPA in like a three hour period. You're fucking having a bad time.

[00:12:07] Chuck: yeah, right. Exactly. I don't like IPAs. I used to. I just got sick of them. It's kind of like a Petey scotch, like smacking me in the mouth all the time. I could sip on a little bit of scotch. I can sip on a little bit of scotch, but I don't want, I don't want three, four drinks of that. This I could have three, four, no problem.

Bourbons are like that. I can, yeah.

[00:12:27] Ken: We have like these, uh, like farm breweries around us, right? You show up and there's like shit for the kids to play on and

they have all their beers. And I, I've been going with sours

[00:12:37] Chuck: Mm hmm.

[00:12:38] Ken: You can't go wrong with a sour.

[00:12:40] Chuck: No, I like a sour. I think a sour is unique and interesting.

[00:12:44] Ken: Yeah. Tasty, egregiously high alcohol content.

[00:12:48] Chuck: a win. You can feel like a man having a sour. So that feels good.

[00:12:53] Ken: So I'm frozen.

[00:12:54] Chuck: I don't know. Robbie, are you there?

[00:12:56] Robbie: I'm here. I think it's my internet that is fucked

[00:12:59] Chuck: really gonna just like, move on. Well, we can move on without you


[00:13:02] Ken: I mean, he's frozen, but he's sitting there pretty agreeable looking. So

[00:13:05] Chuck: He seems happy about how things are going for him currently.

[00:13:08] Ken: that's

[00:13:09] Robbie: Yeah,

just continue. I'll jump back



[00:13:11] Chuck: some internet connection. That's

okay. Um, and, well, we're not supposed to tell you these things,

right? We're,

we're preserving privacy.

[00:13:19] Ken: whereabouts and he left. You said you're in

[00:13:20] Chuck: I'm in Phoenix. He's in Virginia like outside the DC area. Yeah, so

like the

[00:13:25] Ken: I'm in Wall Township, New Jersey. I'll give everybody the fucking

[00:13:27] Chuck: Oh if you want go for it How about your phone number so we can text you too?

[00:13:31] Ken: Go ahead.

[00:13:32] Chuck: No you your phone number.

[00:13:34] Ken: Yeah, 908 692

[00:13:38] Chuck: Perfect Somebody our one listener will text you so I mean, I mean, I'm in Phoenix, Arizona, and he's in Great Falls, Virginia That's enough to like


know, in

[00:13:47] Ken: I love Phoenix.

[00:13:48] Chuck: it's, it's nice. It's nice right now. 75 degrees today. You know, I had to put on a light jacket.

There's nothing wrong with that. I don't golf,


[00:13:56] Ken: 75 degree You don't

[00:13:57] Chuck: no, I don't golf. I hate that shit because I don't like being bad at things.

[00:14:02] Ken: Oh, it's not about being good or bad. It's about fucking around on the carts with the

[00:14:05] Chuck: No, I don't know. I can do that doing other things. Now, top golf is. That that's I'm okay with that. I can like fuck around the boys do that decent food, you know,

[00:14:14] Ken: Topgolf, except you're driving.

[00:14:17] Chuck: I'll drive the car I don't know. I I've golfed once I hated it. I think we went through like 12 Boxes of balls. It


[00:14:25] Ken: Was the person who you went with competitive?

[00:14:28] Chuck: they were good It was actually with Robbie and then two other guys who were good

[00:14:34] Ken: yeah, no, you got to go with a, uh, a ragtag

[00:14:37] Chuck: people don't

[00:14:38] Ken: bunch of rascals.

[00:14:39] Chuck: Yeah the next time I'm

[00:14:41] Ken: like me and my brothers, my brother's like smoking blunts on the cart, like we're running, we're fucking running the carts into other carts and

[00:14:46] Chuck: Right, right, yeah, well that's kinda, yeah, I could maybe get down with that. When I'm in New Jersey next time, are you coming

[00:14:51] Ken: he's twerking on the green, cursing, screaming, yelling. It's fucking

[00:14:53] Chuck: Yeah.

Is there good

[00:14:55] Ken: You can't do that shit at nice golf places. You know, you go like, you know, you go on like a golf vacation, show up

[00:15:00] Chuck: Yeah, no. You wanna go on a public course or something like that, right?

[00:15:03] Ken: Yeah, I'm in like Crocs and sweatpants. Right and like my brothers and like fucking Tim's and

[00:15:10] Chuck: Right.

[00:15:11] Ken: yeah, you can't wear Tim's on the

[00:15:12] Chuck: No, no. I mean, I, I, I, I think I went like middle ground, uh, do it collars and stuff. It was a nice place. I think it was called like the boulders or something. There's a ton of really nice ones here.

[00:15:23] Ken: Did they have that little thing that drives up with the drinks?

[00:15:25] Chuck: Oh yeah. Yeah. They have the, the, the drink cart girls or whatever. Ladies, ladies, uh, can respect that, but I don't know.

Uh, we'll see. We'll see. But I don't like golf at this point.


[00:15:38] Ken: amazing Mexican food


[00:15:40] Chuck: Here? Absolutely.

[00:15:42] Ken: Yeah.

[00:15:43] Chuck: uh, tons of that there. That's, I lived in D. C. for seven years, and that was the biggest thing I missed, is like, the Mexican food in D. C. was garbage.

[00:15:51] Ken: Really?

[00:15:51] Chuck: horrible. Yeah.

so bad.

[00:15:53] Ken: I can't remember what the last thing I had and I did some like random shit, you know, it was like some fucking colonial pub shit.

[00:16:00] Chuck: Okay.

[00:16:01] Ken: It was good

[00:16:02] Chuck: Yeah. There's plenty of good food there.

[00:16:04] Ken: I, it was during COVID,

[00:16:06] Chuck: Mm.

[00:16:07] Ken: like like pure lockdown and you know how hard DC


[00:16:11] Chuck: for sure.

[00:16:11] Ken: like harder than fuck. And we were on our way back from South Carolina, which didn't give a fuck.

And so like we, we stopped, we decided we got like a room. Really nice. It was a fucking room at the Ritz, which is less fun when everything's like completely locked

[00:16:25] Chuck: Yeah, for sure.

[00:16:26] Ken: But we ended up door dashing and the food was on fucking real, but it was not Mexican food. I'll tell you

[00:16:32] Chuck: Yeah, no, definitely wasn't Mexican food and wasn't oysters, although the oysters and,

uh, Taco Bell?

is not Mexican food. Thanks for joining us, Robbie. Uh, no, we're just talking about, uh, how there's good Mexican food here, but not in D. C. Like, it's just absolute garbage. It's not the thing you want there.

There's a lot of other really great food. I did have one time I had a good Mexican food experience, but it was like this speakeasy Mexican restaurant. Yeah, out of somebody's like, uh, income based housing, like we went to this neighborhood and you picked up a phone and like called one of the units and if they had space for you, they dropped the keys down and then you went up in there and it's like grandma in the kitchen with a giant pot.

They had some like, uh, picnic tables inside and it was awesome and that was good. But you were just like hanging out with some family and they charged you cash for food. Like it's the most D. C. City experience ever. And that was good. Yeah, they got shut down eventually by, you know, whatever health board thing, you know, there's no regulation.

So they were like, Nope, I heard about this. That's done. But I got to do that once. And then I went to this place, um, it was like off, uh, like near U street. And I can't remember the name of it. It was very popular because people like the margaritas there or something went. And they basically like serve me a chimichanga.

And it tasted like it was just like dente more beef stew in a tortilla. And the hot sauce they brought me was, uh, I dunno, it was like a Tabasco or something. And I


[00:18:00] Ken: If it's not El Yucateco, you should

[00:18:03] Chuck: Right? Yeah. So I was like, do you have anything else like Tapatio, like anything else that maybe I'll, I'll take Cholula and they were like, no, this is what we have.

And like, you're not a Mexican restaurant. I'm out. Garbage. The whole thing was shit. Anyway, we should talk some tech things now that

Robbie's back. Yeah, we can go into that and then we'll

[00:18:21] Robbie: should we do some lukewarm takes

[00:18:23] Chuck: Yeah, we should do some

[00:18:24] Robbie: or did you already do that?

[00:18:25] Chuck: No, I didn't do that. I was trying to buy you a little time to fix your shitty internet.


[00:18:30] Robbie: I don't know if it's going to stay fixed. I just restarted my routers as you do.


[00:18:35] Chuck: Fair enough. Give it a

[00:18:36] Ken: I got so pissed off one time that I got business internet for my house.

[00:18:40] Chuck: Mm hmm.

[00:18:41] Robbie: nice.

[00:18:41] Chuck: Straight up like T1 line right to your


[00:18:44] Ken: I was like, I'm fucking tired of this shit. I'm getting bi I'm getting business internet because if it's down, they're gonna pay for it.

[00:18:50] Chuck: Yeah, that's, that's a


that's a good

[00:18:52] Ken: been down.

[00:18:53] Chuck: No, that's not bad. I've been lucky.

[00:18:54] Ken: for this


[00:18:55] Chuck: When we moved back to, to Arizona, I got lucky because they had just put fiber in.

I was like, yeah. That was kinda nice. Anyway, lukewarm takes. You wanna go first, Robbie, since I've been talking a lot?

[00:19:08] Robbie: Sure. Uh, in TypeScript, uh, inferred types are explicit types.

[00:19:12] Ken: Me?

[00:19:13] Chuck: Yeah,

[00:19:14] Robbie: Yeah.

[00:19:14] Ken: Oh, fucking inferred all day long. As a matter of fact, I'm like a huge champion of that.

TypeScript is good. it's better than JavaScript, me personally, I'm a huge champion of the Hindley-Milner type system. If you aren't familiar with it, it's, uh, like OCaml, ReasonML, F And in that, right, like, types are not, they're not just like annotations, They're, actually like literal things as well. types are a little bit more first class. It's not just tacked on,

which when that's in a language, that's fucking pretty cool stuff. like if you have like polymorphic variants, right? Like you can switch on shit and have like, kind of like, I don't know, like monadic handling of shit, which is very tight.

So definitely TEEB inferred, fuck writing


[00:20:05] Chuck: Yeah, fuck writing

[00:20:06] Robbie: yep. Ha ha

[00:20:08] Chuck: All right, we're gonna go another direction on opinions then. How about Tailwind or Vanilla CSS?

[00:20:14] Ken: fucking tailwind all day long. Tailwind is the shit. And I'll tell you why fucking tailwind rules. And the reason that everyone's like, Oh, well, you fucking, you don't know, see, I know fucking CSS better than a lot of people, but not fucking J, but

[00:20:28] Chuck: Jay. Jay doesn't fuck


[00:20:30] Ken: that's like a, that's like a next tier, but you know, I've been writing CSS fucking 15, 20 years.

I don't know. Probably closer to 15 some shit. I don't

[00:20:37] Chuck: How old are you?

[00:20:38] Ken: I'm 38 years old

[00:20:40] Robbie: How old is CSS is the better question.

[00:20:42] Ken: I don't fucking know but i've been writing it for a long time. And what I will tell you is that

You see these dudes who are like CSS artisans. They're like, oh, well, you know, if you use this particular style and you know You maintain this fucking bullshit technique and fucking everything will be fine And it'll be a and it's like it's like that's fine when it's your blog Right or like it like an open source fucking theme or some shit like that, right?

But if you're at a company with people People of varying skill levels in CSS, people who are trying to provide business value and not

fucking code stir bait or fucking, you know, that kind of thing. Yeah. Like, like, like when you're like trying to get shit done

You know, I'm going to sit here and tiptoe around this motherfuckers CSS setup.

Not just that, the purge feature is the most important thing in the entire world, right? Because it's like, like you're only including what you use. And if you work in any kind of dynamic environment where it's like, you're loading apps into apps or shit like that, right? It's like super important to have a known local maximum of style asset sizing.

Like imagine you have like a dynamic dashboard or some shit like that. Right. Where it's like, you can load in, um, like some like federated module as shit, you know, and each of them has their own assets or whatever. Right. right. If it, if it's tailwind, right. You like, like you have a known local maximum in addition as a library author.

if you can take an implicit dependency on tailwind. Then you don't have to deal with any of this import bullshit all the time. Right? Like,

have you ever had to publish a library that has a dependency that CSS as well as JS?

[00:22:24] Robbie: Yeah, it's never,



[00:22:27] Ken: dude, it is even like internally at places, right? It's like, it's just a grimy fucking thing, especially if you're using like certain things, like it doesn't do like, so then now you have to like. copy it into the dist folder as part of an npm script before publishing and then fucking in your readme like Not only do you import this but you have to fucking import, you know

[00:22:48] Chuck: Yeah, I mean,

so, yeah, we have Shepard. And Shepard has, uh, CSS, like,

[00:22:54] Robbie: we do just make them import the CSS

[00:22:56] Chuck: we do exactly that thing. So maybe that's a bad

[00:22:59] Ken: well, if it's, if it's a, if it's a public

thing, maybe, right. But if you're working like as like an internal infrastructure team somewhere or some shit like that, right? Like you can tell everyone we're taking an implicit dependency on tailwind and then everyone's lives become immediately easier because you can pull in everything in the entire place and then, you know, the worst case scenario, you have full tailwind, which is statistically improbable. Right, like most people are like, you know, P2, fucking text white, call it a day.

[00:23:31] Chuck: Yeah, yeah, for sure,


[00:23:32] Ken: Flex, flex row,

[00:23:34] Chuck: I

[00:23:34] Ken: item center.

[00:23:35] Chuck: yeah, the shorthand around flex and all of that stuff is really nice.

I do


[00:23:40] Ken: Do you guys ever get bit by that min height zero bullshit?

[00:23:44] Chuck: Uh,

[00:23:44] Robbie: Uh, I don't think so.

[00:23:46] Chuck: in

[00:23:46] Ken: So it's like, it's like you have, you have the header up top, you have the footer on the bottom, and then the middle has to auto accommodate and scroll?

[00:23:54] Robbie: Mm

[00:23:54] Chuck: flexed on you. I just want you to, you know,

[00:23:57] Robbie: Oh,

[00:24:00] Chuck: see. He, he told me he's gonna finish that bottle and I'm gonna try to make it happen.

[00:24:05] Ken: Sheesh. Yeah, yeah, but like, you know, like, like, as, like, if you were to look at how Flexbox is supposed to work, header, footer, flex zero, middle, flex one? No, No, you have to min height zero, the fucking thing won't work.

[00:24:24] Robbie: I don't, I don't do a ton of CSS in general, honestly.

[00:24:27] Chuck: That's why you like


[00:24:28] Ken: Bless you, sir.

[00:24:30] Chuck: I do try to avoid it. That's why I like Serverless or YAML.

[00:24:34] Ken: Certain things are a little challenging in Tailwind.

[00:24:37] Chuck: Yeah, for sure.

[00:24:38] Ken: Like, like if you're really wrangling. Let me dial it back one more time. Another huge advantage of Tailwind, is that you don't get scope fucked. Cascade fucked, to be, to be precise. Have you been cascade

[00:24:54] Chuck: Oh, absolutely. A billion times. Separation of concerns and, uh, and the cascade doesn't play well,

[00:25:01] Ken: If you look at the slick carousel issue list,

it just cascade fucking like probably like 43 percent is cascade fucking. which is unfortunate. Right. Because like, you know, if you're working in component based systems, like I get, right, like if you're like trying to do like, Oh, are we going to get into like apps versus sites?

[00:25:23] Robbie: Um,

[00:25:24] Chuck: I don't have it on a list, but also our list can also

be burned. Who gives


[00:25:29] Ken: Well, I mean, if you have like a site, right. Like I mean,

[00:25:32] Chuck: Yeah, a


[00:25:32] Ken: there's, there's times for the cascade and there's times there's not the cascade, right? Like I'll cascade, like, like fucking REM shit or whatever. But

[00:25:39] Chuck: Yeah.

[00:25:40] Ken: most of the time, you know, if you're just out here writing your own. Shit willy nilly somebody's like fucking p background gray and then like your whole shit is fucked

[00:25:51] Chuck: Yeah.

[00:25:51] Ken: and tailwind prevents that which is you know It's it's

I love everything about it and anybody who doesn't like it.

I will fucking fight physically

[00:26:00] Chuck: Before or after you finish this bottle? I


[00:26:03] Ken: Before stone sober is six o'clock in the morning four o'clock in the morning when I wake up. I don't even poop yet I'll fight you Is

[00:26:10] Chuck: you might shit your pants. As you get older, you know, like incontinence, incontinence is a real real


It is as you get old. I mean, I haven't shit in my pants since


was two or

[00:26:20] Robbie: you have to be a little older than

[00:26:22] Chuck: Yeah, you got to be a little older.

I'm getting


[00:26:24] Ken: I, I know that's like a way off, probably. I don't know if that was like a now problem or whatever, you know.

[00:26:29] Chuck: Not yet, but you know, i'm always wondering i'm

always trying to testing I

do those

[00:26:33] Ken: get through over the

[00:26:33] Chuck: Yeah, yeah, but other than that, you know, and then you just do some clinching exercises and just you know, keep it tight, bro

[00:26:40] Ken: like, like kegels?

[00:26:41] Chuck: Yeah, but for men because you don't I don't have a


[00:26:45] Ken: the same

[00:26:45] Chuck: Yeah. Yeah, I guess it's the same

[00:26:47] Robbie: Yeah,

[00:26:47] Ken: it's the same,

[00:26:48] Chuck: Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Kegel's for

[00:26:50] Robbie: yeah,

[00:26:53] Chuck: you don't want to shit your pants. We spend a lot of time seated, right? So we're not working all the


[00:26:57] Ken: I know, and you know what, that's like a big problem for me.

[00:27:01] Chuck: yeah.

[00:27:01] Ken: literally sit here like 10 12 hours a


[00:27:04] Chuck: exactly. And I've tried the, uh, You put the whole, um, Uh, you know, try to walk while your standing desk is and the

[00:27:12] Ken: Can you, can you pay attention, can you code while

[00:27:15] Chuck: No. I can't. I can do meetings while

standing. I cannot code.

[00:27:18] Robbie: I can't do anything that's like, that I don't already know the answer to. Like if I'm trying to debug something hard, but if it's like, I'm gonna refactor the shit out of these like ten things and it's a repeatable process,

then I can stand and

walk and do

[00:27:31] Ken: that's the

[00:27:31] Chuck: You could do that on the treadmill or

[00:27:33] Ken: review PRs or I could answer emails or that kind of thing, but anything that actually requires, I'm like, Mike, hold on. I'm not fancy enough. I don't have like the electric one, the crank one.

[00:27:42] Chuck: Oh.

We gotta get you a BFLOW sponsorship actually. We can, we can work


[00:27:47] Robbie: They, they have ones they'll send you for


[00:27:50] Chuck: Yeah. We

[00:27:50] Ken: they'll send it for free.

[00:27:52] Robbie: Yeah,

[00:27:52] Chuck: yeah, we, we we might know people. Yeah, we might

[00:27:55] Ken: Get the heck out of


[00:27:56] Chuck: don't make money on this podcast, but we do

get the hookup sometimes.

[00:28:01] Robbie: Yep.

[00:28:01] Chuck: Yeah. Yeah. Like, a far more, uh, polished in a professional podcast brought to you by syntax.

fm. Uh, yeah. So we had David on, we've had Wes and Scott on before too. And, uh, yeah, we got a hookup when they did the swag store. So.

[00:28:17] Ken: That's

[00:28:17] Chuck: Yeah, the desk is really nice. It actually is different than most like standing desks because all four legs lift So it's a little and and it's really well designed in terms of how you can organize cables and all that



[00:28:30] Robbie: Yeah. It's got like a slot in the back so you can run everything down and like a

velcro thing you hook everything to.

[00:28:35] Chuck: it's

pretty nice. So today's podcast is brought to you by bflow. Is it bflow. com?

[00:28:41] Robbie: Uh, I don't know the website. Hold on.

[00:28:45] Chuck: You paid the money and


[00:28:46] Robbie: prepared to do an ad live. Come on. Let's see.

[00:28:49] Chuck: them all up. Anyway, I have like a chess gold, too. So the combination between


[00:28:53] Robbie: It's go be flow.com,

[00:28:55] Chuck: com.

[00:28:56] Robbie: G-O-B-E-F-L o.com.

[00:29:00] Ken: I did an ad read one time on The Undefined, I feel like Jared was taken back. He like chatted to me. He's like, that was fucking incredible. That was like art.

[00:29:08] Chuck: Right. So

[00:29:10] Ken: I was like shit faced. And I like read off of there. I'm like, you know, you need to,

[00:29:13] Chuck: yeah, I did one for warp. I actually did that myself because whatever,

you know,

[00:29:18] Robbie: that I told you like I can't do this, so you do


[00:29:21] Chuck: yeah. And I did.

[00:29:23] Ken: I do it very roganly. Cause that's the only like fucking point of reference that I have for podcast


[00:29:30] Chuck: yeah. I listened to smart lists and some other like non techie ones to get kind of ideas and be


[00:29:37] Ken: I listened to all in,

which is

[00:29:39] Chuck: Oh yeah. Yeah.

[00:29:40] Ken: We drove to Lake George, which is probably the better part of a five hour drive. I'm listening to all in the whole entire way.

Imagine my poor wife having to listen to that bullshit for five hours.

[00:29:49] Chuck: yeah, do you listen to Dark Knight Diaries?

[00:29:52] Ken: I have,

[00:29:53] Chuck: Yeah, so we, we, you should listen to the Jack Reciter episode. So he was on ours. Uh, I obviously wasn't on his because I haven't gone to jail yet for

[00:30:03] Robbie: Yeah, his requirement is like, you have to have been in

jail or,

[00:30:07] Chuck: I don't meet that, but, uh, so I, I forced my, anyway, the connection there is that I forced my wife to listen to some darknet diaries on a drive before, because she loves those murder podcasts.

And I'm like, this is like that, but for the internet and tech tech people, and then she's, it didn't have the same resonance for her, but

[00:30:24] Robbie: I think it's more important to people that have some frame of reference in technology.

[00:30:29] Chuck: if you ever modded a console, there's a cool episode about that. Or if you really


[00:30:34] Ken: I've done a lot of hardware work. I love hardware.

[00:30:36] Chuck: I think hardware is pretty cool and interesting and not so

in the, I, I, yeah, you, you might find this surprising, but like being not in the limelight for some of my work is, feels. Feels kind of nice.

It feels protected.

[00:30:51] Ken: I

haven't been in the limelight for my work for five years.

[00:30:54] Chuck: But now you're coming back. Coming back


[00:30:57] Ken: No I'm

[00:30:58] Chuck: You're doing talks. Are you doing talks? You just did a

[00:31:00] Ken: talks the entire time. Yeah.

[00:31:02] Chuck: Yeah.

that's the

[00:31:03] Ken: I don't talk about what I do.

[00:31:06] Robbie: your day

[00:31:06] Chuck: Yeah, it

doesn't have to be your day job. You think I talk about my day job ever?

[00:31:10] Ken: I used to a


[00:31:12] Chuck: but you're in a different position. So I don't think that's


important part. It's more about Ken than it is about, you know, work for blah de blah. And that's still,


[00:31:22] Ken: I got news for you boss, it was always your back end. Ha

ha ha ha


[00:31:28] Chuck: All right, do you want to do any more of these hot takes, Mr.

[00:31:31] Ken: happy to fucking


[00:31:32] Robbie: yeah, we've, we've got one of the more recent ones that's been going around sidebar on the left or right in VS code.

[00:31:39] Ken: Oh god, I thought you were going to ask me a political question, you already know the answer. Um, Cybarr on? No, no, no Cybarr.

[00:31:47] Chuck: No

sidebar at all? Yeah, Just hide

[00:31:50] Robbie: search for the files you need.

[00:31:55] AD SPOT

[00:31:55] Robbie: Silence.

[00:32:11] Ken: Like I'll literally just sit there for like an hour and like, look at it and then go do some shit and then look at it and go do some shit and then come in like. You know, I don't know. I feel like over time, I feel like, like when you're like first starting out or first couple of years or whatever, right.

You'll go, you'd be like, Oh God, I have to refactor this entire fucking thing. Right. And then like you come in and you know, 15 years later, you're like, all right, I'm just going to, you know, go take a poop, make a sandwich, come back, think about it, and then you're like, all right, I could like write like three lines.

It's taken me four days to do these three lines, but it fixes everything in like a very like low risk kind of way.

[00:32:48] Chuck: yeah, yeah. That

[00:32:50] Ken: And you'll do that.

[00:32:51] Chuck: yeah, I think that's like experience gives you the ability to realize that work isn't just sitting in front of your keyboard, right? Is that you're processing that whole time. And that's what companies are paying for. They're paying for your ability to solve problems. They're not paying for lines of code.

And I think that is kind of what

[00:33:10] Ken: That's like a metric though. Some

[00:33:12] Chuck: It is, it is, and it's,

[00:33:14] Robbie: it's stupid, yeah.

[00:33:15] Ken: I see, I've seen dudes get fired over not committing atomically

[00:33:18] Chuck: yeah, yeah, number of


[00:33:21] Ken: you. You're getting one big ass fucking PR. they used to get one big. So that's the difference between like feature dev and fixes fixes.

All right. It'll be like one line after three days,

but like, Yeah feature dev you'll get like, you know

[00:33:32] Chuck: bug introduction,

[00:33:34] Ken: lines after one


[00:33:35] Chuck: yeah, but, you know, impact is, you can't measure impact, and that's a big argument, I think, right, like, Productivity from a dev across all levels, whatever that means. And none of us can really agree what, you know, what's a junior dev versus a senior dev versus a staff and architect and all those things in general, we don't really agree on that.

Uh, and it's not 10 year alone because that's

[00:33:58] Ken: No, no, no No, i've seen i've seen absolute senior devs who've only been in the game for like three

[00:34:02] Chuck: I know because they job hopped and played the game and

good for

[00:34:05] Ken: No, no, no. No, I mean like like like like like like skilled

here senior devs, right? I've seen a lot of guys who are like super super talented who like are not even being Paid close to what

they're worth or like, you know Like also you see these folks who've been at the same company for like 10 years and like stay like 10 hours a day And just fucking don't do anything

[00:34:24] Chuck: Yeah.

[00:34:25] Ken: Of any Necessary, you know, I mean, they're just they're just struggling the entire time With the same kind of problems and shit and you're like damn

[00:34:33] Chuck: Yeah. You haven't learned to be efficient. You haven't learned how to find the answers. You haven't learned how to learn really.

[00:34:39] Robbie: they just don't care,

[00:34:40] Chuck: or they don't care. And they just are like, if I'm here

[00:34:43] Ken: chilling. They're not sharky

[00:34:44] Chuck: yeah,

yeah. It's a, it's a wide spectrum. I think

[00:34:48] Ken: It's also like like a senior in one place So you're a senior it fucking, you know Dickhead calm is not the same is like senior at google. com All

[00:34:54] Chuck: for sure, for sure.

[00:34:56] Ken: right, these titles are not transferable. Like there's places I could go where i'd be a fucking junior


[00:34:59] Chuck: yeah. I mean, there's any,

[00:35:01] Ken: I mean, maybe not a


[00:35:02] Robbie: that's my problem right now.

I'm a mid level dev at Amazon with 10 years or 11 or 12 years of experience,


[00:35:09] Ken: Yeah,

[00:35:10] Chuck: say that's accurate leveling though. I don't know. In my

[00:35:12] Robbie: Uh,

[00:35:13] Chuck: no, I'd say that's accurate leveling. Like, do you know Yammelbro or no?

[00:35:17] Robbie: well, I'm not, I'm not good at, uh, interviewing is the problem.


solve this shit during


[00:35:21] Ken: are you interviewing for?

[00:35:23] Robbie: Well, nothing now, but like when I

[00:35:24] Ken: No, no. I'm just saying you need to

like leverage


[00:35:26] Chuck: Yeah, you, yeah, you gotta, you gotta

[00:35:29] Ken: just leverage that network.

[00:35:30] Chuck: and see, I'm very

unskilled and, I'm very unskilled and very

[00:35:34] Robbie: you have to do the process.

[00:35:35] Chuck: That's the difference. I need just friends to get me

[00:35:37] Ken: what I'm saying? You just, Yeah.

you just gotta, it's just, it's, it's a Riz only play. I w I wouldn't work at Amazon. I know a lot of people who work at Amazon and I like them, but I probably wouldn't work there.

[00:35:46] Chuck: It's a very specific process. People study,

[00:35:49] Robbie: yeah,

[00:35:51] Chuck: you're


[00:35:52] Ken: people do the whole decode thing for this isn't that and it's like, you know I've worked on some of the harder problems and not had to deal with that shit Or if I had to deal with that shit, it wasn't the shit that they were asking It was more obscure algorithms that I either had to find a library for or fucking

[00:36:05] Chuck: just go learn at the time when I need it. I know how to get that information. Yeah. And I think that's a big difference.

Like I don't

have it on demand.

[00:36:13] Ken: value to understanding like algorithmic complexity, right and things like that Like most of the time you're not doing this

[00:36:19] Chuck: Apps versus sites. And then what's the


[00:36:23] Robbie: Combinatorics is a thing is like helpful. Like you don't need to know how to do all of it. You just need to know it exists for when you hit complex problems. Like,

you know, so, but yeah, most of the time we're like, move this over a few pixels. Like that's all we're doing all fucking day.

[00:36:36] Chuck: In my career, I think it was about like 13 years or so, and then I had to figure out combinatorics. I was like, oh, okay, I've got to solve this problem. It's called this. Alright. That's where I went.

[00:36:47] Ken: You guys ever do like leak code dive shit

[00:36:50] Chuck: I did when I started the Amazon process, and I decided it wasn't for me, and

[00:36:55] Ken: It makes me feel so fucking stupid

[00:36:57] Chuck: Yeah, yeah. It really does.

You're like, what the fuck? Okay. I'm okay up to mediums, hards are hard. And then I'm an idiot. So then I was like, I'm going to opt out of this one for various

[00:37:11] Ken: at no point in time has it ever resembled anything I've ever done in 15, 20 years of software engineering.

[00:37:18] Robbie: Yeah, I think it's, you know, it's a different skill set. There's like, everyone talks about back end versus front end and like, Oh, front end is not real engineers or whatever the fuck they want to say. And

[00:37:27] Chuck: well, they changed

[00:37:28] Robbie: that because we don't have to do algorithms or whatever as much. Doesn't mean it's not as much engineering because there's so much other shit you have to know, like.

Okay, well you know algorithms, but can you configure webpack for me real quick? Like, fuck you. Like

[00:37:43] Chuck: Front

[00:37:43] Ken: the final, that's the final question in the interview.

[00:37:46] Chuck: hmm. Front end infra sucks


[00:37:48] Ken: Webpack actually isn't that hard. Believe it or not. Like if you really just died to dig into it, like I've heard like pretty meaty plugins for Webpack before everything comes down to just reading the fucking errors.

[00:38:00] Chuck: mm hmm. And the docs. Read the fuckin manual.

[00:38:02] Ken: The docs and the errors, right? You start googling shit,

[00:38:05] Chuck: Yeah.

[00:38:06] Ken: it's not gonna work. Now chat GPT that shit, that's a different

[00:38:10] Robbie: Yeah.

[00:38:10] Chuck: is. That kind of puts you on a nicer

[00:38:13] Ken: Then you get a really wrong answer. Look at that!

[00:38:16] Chuck: And they're like, well, I'm smart enough to know this ain't it.

[00:38:18] Robbie: Yeah.

[00:38:19] Ken: do shit too.

[00:38:20] Chuck: I got to say though, like the jump from like grunt or what was the one for a minute gulp? Yeah. Grunt gulp. to, to web pack was like, Oh, did we really need to do all this? Okay. It was kind

[00:38:32] Ken: Vite is good.

[00:38:33] Chuck: yeah. It's good.

[00:38:34] Ken: I like Vite a


[00:38:35] Chuck: I'm glad you say


[00:38:36] Ken: fuck Vite, use Next. And I like Next, but I just can't use

[00:38:40] Chuck: Yeah. I mean, I like next because it puts guardrails into like it made CRA like ridiculous and stupid.

[00:38:48] Ken: It always

[00:38:49] Chuck: Yeah, it always was but it's you know I don't know if you went down the path of like sagas and funk and


[00:38:56] Ken: Oh yes, I

[00:38:57] Chuck: shit exactly You're like, why is this happening to me?

Someone else made this choice. I guess I gotta pretend like they were right

[00:39:06] Ken: I had one of the original Flux implementations.

It was called McFly. It was awesome.


[00:39:11] Chuck: Well, the name is good,

[00:39:13] Ken: then we switched to alt because we needed server rendering.

And my, my, my good friends were the maintainers of that. And hey, some fine Airbnb

[00:39:24] Chuck: Yeah, yeah, everybody just wants JavaScript's version of PHP and, and Python and whatever, you know, basically they want Rails and Django and,


[00:39:34] Ken: You guys been writing Python?

[00:39:36] Chuck: I, I used to at National Geographic

[00:39:39] Robbie: can't do it. I have to have braces.

[00:39:40] Chuck: I like Python cause it's like language to me, but anyway,

[00:39:44] Robbie: want

[00:39:45] Ken: a lot. Little AI bullshit. Also like some, you know, data exploration kind of shit. I like it.

Python's fun.

[00:39:52] Chuck: so can I just publicly ask you what's in your jewel? Is it just tobacco or is it something else?

[00:39:58] Ken: No, no, it's just tobacco right in here. This is, this is one jewel of tobacco. This is another jewel of tobacco. This is like an elf bar of tobacco. This is a Zen. Yeah,

[00:40:08] Chuck: So you got options. You're not


[00:40:10] Ken: yeah, are you guys

nicotine pilled? No? Are

[00:40:13] Chuck: No.

[00:40:13] Ken: you ex nicotine pilled?

[00:40:15] Chuck: Nope, never. I've never smoked a cigarette or had any nicotine in my entire life.

[00:40:20] Ken: I don't think I started smoking until I was about 17 years

[00:40:23] Chuck: Right?

[00:40:25] Ken: and it was Marlboro Reds.

[00:40:26] Robbie: ha, ha,

[00:40:31] Ken: used to this is funny I used to get Marlboro Reds But I would also carry around a pack of Marlboro Lights just for girls at the bar.

[00:40:38] Chuck: That's

[00:40:39] Ken: fucking amazing

[00:40:40] Chuck: Were these bars on the Jersey Shore?

I've been to

the shore. I've been to Seaside and Vineland and what's the one? Wood something? Anyway.

[00:40:48] Ken: Vineland

and Jersey Vineland and Seaside are completely different fucking

[00:40:52] Chuck: I know, well, I've had reasons to go to both.

[00:40:56] Ken: Okay, no, that's cool. Yeah, so I grew up I'm in the Jersey Shore right now. I've lived there for 38 years. I need to I need you to understand how much of a townie I am,

[00:41:05] Chuck: Hmm. okay?

[00:41:06] Ken: So, I


here right

[00:41:08] Chuck: for me, please.

[00:41:09] Ken: in the town directly next to the town where I was born.

[00:41:12] Chuck: Okay.

[00:41:13] Ken: This town that I'm in right now, my wife is from this town.

[00:41:15] Chuck: Mm hmm.

[00:41:16] Ken: it's a mile away from the town in which I was born. My parents still live in that town so me and her are both from here live here We have parents brothers and sisters and cousins all in a five mile radius Talking turbo townie

[00:41:34] Chuck: Yeah. Turbo

[00:41:35] Robbie: N. O. N.

[00:41:51] Chuck: That's funny.

That's funny.

[00:41:52] Ken: Yeah, it was funny, but, uh, yeah, yeah. It, it, it, it do be like that. I saw my brother in the parking lot of the liquor store the other day.

[00:42:00] Chuck: Did he

[00:42:00] Ken: I was walking and he's like, he's like, what's up bitch? I'm like, I'm like this soft ass motherfucker.

[00:42:08] Chuck: that brings up so many other questions. Like, are they all in tech? Are you all in tech? How did you get in? How do you go from the short to tech?

[00:42:16] Ken: when I was a little kid, I loved computers. My dad thought computers. My dad like, likes a gadgets and. He likes like tech shit, you know, he's, he's, he's tapped in. I could elaborate on that, but I'm not going to, uh, he's, he's, he's,

[00:42:28] Chuck: Tune into the next episode where we talk about Ken's dad.

[00:42:32] Ken: no, he's fucking tapped in. when we were little kids, he got like one of those like first, like IBM computer kind of things.

you know, there were like text based games

[00:42:40] Chuck: Oh yeah. I love those. Like Zork and


[00:42:42] Ken: Zork and like, you fucking drive the heavy truck or whatever. And you drive like the semi. You remember that

[00:42:50] Chuck: I, I loved those games. I had an Atari computer that I set up to the TV and then


[00:42:56] Ken: So when I was a little kid, right? Like I, that's, that was like, I was like, this is fucking cool. Dude. Computers. What the fuck? This is sick.

So I did that. And then you get to, you get to elementary school. And the first thing that they're trying to do is trying to get you to do Mavis Beacon. I come in, I'm like destroying typing. Right. And so I'm like fucking sick of typing and I'm like, yeah, I don't need this. And they're like, listen, you can do whatever you want.

So I go and find QBasic and I'm like, what the fuck is this? And I go and I get in there. I'm like doing like fucking visualizations and like gradients and shit. I'm like playing with like math and coding and fucking shit. That dude was awesome. I'm like tearing that shit up. And I got really, really into it.

And then like, we get like really into like, like me and my boys, we were like, geez, like real geez. Right. And then like, like we would sit there and like,

fucking write PHP or like code up HTML websites,

[00:43:50] Robbie: Silence.

[00:43:54] Ken: basic apps, like punters and shit like that.

Little hackers,

that kind of thing. And yeah, dude, it was, it was really funny culturally. And then, um, then I got super into rap music and I became a rap producer for like 10 years. And at the end of that, uh, my mom was like, you have to get a job.

[00:44:14] Chuck: right?

[00:44:16] Ken: I went, I looked in the back of a newspaper and the newspaper said like web developer. Using flash

[00:44:23] Chuck: Oh yeah.

[00:44:24] Ken: and I was like shit I could do that.

I called him up lied the entire time

and spent five years at that place You know, while everyone else was in college, I was just, I was building all the local restaurants, websites, and flash. You get the little loading bar and it's a music and you put your mouse over shit.

It's like, ding, ding, ding, ding. It's like, right. Like, it was awesome. We had fun. yeah. And then from there I launched into like tech proper. like this, this place was kind of fizzling out. So like I hit up a local. Firm who actually did a lot of work with like New York fashion.

And they were like e com implementers for like Oracle and Salesforce.

Now it's Salesforce. It was demand where then, yeah. And started working with them doing real things. That's where I wrote slick carousel and, you

know, took it from there.

That's how code happened.

[00:45:08] Chuck: That's how code happened. ActionScript was like like, legit JavaScript back in the day.

[00:45:14] Ken: Action script, fucking rules.

[00:45:16] Chuck: yeah, it did a lot. It did a ton.

[00:45:19] Ken: I remember when, iPhone came out and it was like, we're not going to support flash and flash is dead. Shit like that. I was like, all right, fellas, time to switch over to. Fucking html css we have jquery and you could do like dot slide down order to fuck, you know I'm, like I tell you what, it's okay in time the animation performance will catch up

It never did

[00:45:42] Robbie: Yeah,

[00:46:11] Chuck: People without kids. That's who has that kind of time. So,

you know,

[00:46:16] Ken: I have so many kids. They're out here fucking busting through the wall. Like the Kool Aid man


[00:46:20] Chuck: They're like, Daddy, Daddy! Stop it with a Versace robe! Come out here and play with us! I don't know.

[00:46:28] Ken: They have their

[00:46:29] Chuck: what They're

The whole family has Versace robes. Did you get those from China?

[00:46:35] Ken: No,

[00:46:36] Robbie: Versace over Gucci?

[00:46:37] Chuck: Well, you got them secondarily through China though.


[00:46:41] Ken: I don't know where this was made.

[00:46:43] Chuck: you don't look at the tag.

[00:46:44] Ken: I don't, I mean, I don't know.

[00:46:46] Chuck: Yeah, Tags are irrelevant.

That's fair. Yeah, you just,

[00:46:51] Ken: Yeah,

[00:46:51] Chuck: just riding the wave.

[00:46:53] Ken: keeping it drippy. You know what they're really into? They're into Crocs now. Do

[00:46:56] Chuck: I know, I don't really get it. I know you like

them. I just don't get it. No, I don't wear Crocs.



[00:47:01] Ken: But have you ever worn Crocs?

[00:47:03] Chuck: haven't ever


[00:47:05] Ken: Do you know what I'm wearing right now? They're not Crocs.

[00:47:07] Chuck: Oh? Okay. Let me, let me know what I can have, like, some self respect, and then


[00:47:13] Ken: I never said there was self respect, but like, uh, imagine if you had like a Crocs for winter?

[00:47:20] Chuck: Okay.

[00:47:21] Ken: So it's a North Face

[00:47:23] Chuck: Oh, I have seen this. Or versions of it. yeah,

[00:47:28] Ken: Bro, it's like a jacket for your feet. It's fucking incredible.

[00:47:32] Chuck: might be open to that.


[00:47:34] Ken: Yeah, it's pretty

[00:47:35] Chuck: slipper. Yeah. I've got some fancy slippers. I have mohenders


[00:47:38] Robbie: I'm into

[00:47:39] Chuck: Those are sweet. Mohinders, you ever heard of those? They're like wool, boiled wool slipper things, but they're super

comfy and

[00:47:45] Ken: Does the inside get gnarly?

[00:47:48] Chuck: they breathe.

So the boiled wool breathes. That's the point. Yeah, with those, I don't, I don't know. Do those breathe? I have, I

[00:47:54] Ken: no, I

mean, these are fine. I have the, uh, like the lined Crocs, the Crocs with the fuzzy interior. Dude, those things are fuckin biohazards

right now.

[00:48:04] Chuck: See, that's

[00:48:04] Ken: They're fuckin gnarly. You know how gnarly they are? Right, like, like when you wake up in the morning and you go to put your foot in, like, the initial fleece is like hard

from like foot gnarliness.

[00:48:15] Chuck: my

[00:48:16] Ken: No, no, no, but

then like so I like put my foot in all the way and like the toe is wet I'm, like fuck

[00:48:21] Robbie: Oh,


[00:48:22] Ken: I just kicked it off. I'm like, no, no, no These bitches have to

[00:48:26] Chuck: Yeah.

[00:48:27] Ken: you just need to off gas a little weeks ago. I froze them I put them in a

freezer for like a

[00:48:33] Chuck: That's why I was thinking like put 'em outside or put 'em in the freezer or something. I don't know. That's what they tell you to do with jeans to like kill the bacteria. Yeah. They're like, don't wash your jeans, just put 'em in the freezer. And


[00:48:43] Ken: I hate I'd never wash jeans ever.

[00:48:45] Robbie: Wait, what?


[00:48:47] Chuck: not supposed to wash jeans every time.

Yeah, If you

[00:48:49] Ken: if you wash jeans, dude, you ruin the fucking

jeans like

[00:48:52] Chuck: yeah, raw denim is

[00:48:53] Robbie: Um, I'm okay with that,

but but putting them in the


[00:48:57] Ken: Yeah,

you want to

maintain your patina?

[00:48:59] Chuck: Oh,

I know all about patina. I'm a car guy, so.

[00:49:02] Ken: Is that right? Are you a boot guy?

[00:49:05] Chuck: yes, I have some like red wings that I've had for like a decade plus, and like



[00:49:10] Ken: Oh, man, they must be lovely

[00:49:11] Chuck: They're amazing. They're


[00:49:12] Ken: I fucked around and then got the mocktoe originally which is a mistake.

[00:49:16] Chuck: because of that, the sole is not replaceable. That's like what you're


[00:49:20] Ken: Yeah. No, I got Rangers now though I'm about six months in on the Rangers.

[00:49:23] Chuck: yeah, hell yeah.

[00:49:24] Ken: we'll see how they patina up You know what? I just gotta get some Thursdays and they're fucking actually pretty great

[00:49:29] Chuck: Hmm. Okay.


[00:49:31] Ken: I got them as part of like a Billy Hargrove Halloween costume

[00:49:34] Chuck: Okay. I don't know who Billy Hargrove is. I'm, I'm,

[00:49:37] Ken: he's the dude who fucked the kids mom on stranger things that cool dude with the

Remember that guy?

do you know what's funny? You know what that kid's mom's name was?

[00:49:46] Chuck: no. Oh right. Yes. And he had the flaming chicken, right? Do you have a flaming chicken?

[00:49:55] Ken: I don't know about a flaming chicken. yeah,


[00:49:56] Chuck: It's a Trans Am. Firebird. It's like Burt Reynolds shit. Yeah, you know, smoking the bandit.

[00:50:01] Ken: Yeah, he was cool as shit and he's at the pool and he's like, What's up, shawty?

[00:50:04] Chuck: So, the, those are called, they're the last, like, muscle car, and

[00:50:10] Ken: I thought you meant like a flaming chicken decal.

[00:50:12] Chuck: No, yeah, well, I mean, it's on the front of the car,

[00:50:15] Robbie: The last muscle

[00:50:16] Chuck: Yeah, it's the last muscle car, because it went, well, because it wasn't encumbered by, regulation and stuff as much.

Um, because it was like kind of the end, like a lot of companies were like

[00:50:27] Ken: Do you own a muscle car?

[00:50:29] Chuck: I don't,

[00:50:30] Robbie: He would never own a muscle car.

[00:50:32] Chuck: I like muscle cars, I mean, I grew

[00:50:33] Ken: What do you drive?

[00:50:34] Chuck: and stuff. Um, Porsche, Taycan, Cross Turismo.

I'm a Porsche

[00:50:38] Ken: Fuckin hot.

[00:50:40] Chuck: Yeah. I love it. It's a hot hatch. It is amazing. Electric, obviously. And all the things. Plus, my kids can fit in the back. It's the first car I've had that my wife actually likes. Cause I, even when I had no money, I bought like shitty old Porsches and then worked on them myself and push started and whatever you got to do.

Cause I was always like, I'd rather have a cool car than one that works all the time. I don't care. Yeah,

[00:51:03] Ken: My neighbor has a 911 and it's fuckin very cool. He had me drive it to his daughter's wedding. I was coincidentally drone filming his daughter's wedding. And he's like, he's like, Hey, he's like, he's like, I don't mean to put you out, but can you do me a favor? Can you fucking drive this Porsche for me?

I was like, I was like, I'll tell you what. Uh, no, it's like, I don't know. Maybe like 10, 15 years old maybe.

[00:51:25] Chuck: Okay, so like a 997 or something. I had one of those. I had a 996, 997,

I've had a bunch. Yeah.

[00:51:32] Ken: I don't, I don't, I don't drive cars.

[00:51:35] Chuck: go places. You just

have the

[00:51:36] Ken: No, no, I drive trucks.

[00:51:38] Chuck: Oh,

[00:51:39] Ken: don't like dragon ass.

It's too low to the ground. No, I, sort of.

[00:51:43] Chuck: But

[00:51:44] Ken: have a Land Rover Defender. Right, and it has like it has like a,


[00:51:47] Chuck: one or an old one?

[00:51:48] Ken: new one.

It has like a, uh, like a hydraulic

[00:51:51] Robbie: Four door, two

[00:51:52] Ken: or some shit. Four door. And it's like, you hit the button and the shit will lift six inches or some shit. Or drop six inches or something. You know,

it's like,

[00:52:00] Chuck: car actually goes up two and a half inches. You know, for off road mode, so I've taken it, like, in a wash in Arizona and stuff, so.

[00:52:09] Ken: I was historically a Jeep guy.

[00:52:10] Chuck: Oh, yeah, okay. I

[00:52:12] Ken: I like, I like Wrangler, Wrangler Unlimited, that kind of

thing. I wanted a pickup truck.

[00:52:18] Chuck: Now they

[00:52:19] Ken: was very anti.

[00:52:20] Chuck: whatever the hell the modern version is called. They have the 80s

[00:52:23] Robbie: I forget

[00:52:24] Chuck: then it's out now.


[00:52:25] Ken: is

that fucking, gladiator?

[00:52:26] Robbie: yeah.

[00:52:27] Chuck: it's called? Okay.

[00:52:28] Ken: Yeah, I was gonna, I was gonna get a gladiator.

[00:52:31] Chuck: They have the, the, the Jeep Electric, too. It's like


[00:52:35] Ken: heard it's dog shit. Yeah, they said it's like, it's like 25 minutes of


[00:52:38] Chuck: oh, yeah, that's not great.

[00:52:40] Ken: Yeah.

[00:52:41] Chuck: if it's hybrid in that way, in full electric, that's not crazy. Like, even the, uh, we looked at the hybrid Volvo one.

It's like the, the 90 or whatever. And that's like 35 miles. Yeah, XC90, it's only 35 miles. But that usually covers you, you know, driving around town or something. You're good to go.

[00:53:02] Ken: Yeah.

[00:53:04] Chuck: You come out here, I'll try golf, and then I'll take you for a ride through the Ticon.


[00:53:09] Ken: Yeah, yeah, no, I'm into that. My wife was a big fan when I was driving his car. So, someday,

[00:53:15] Chuck: my wife hated my 911s. So,


[00:53:18] Ken: even on the way to dinner.

[00:53:20] Chuck: yeah. I mean, I guess she liked how people were impressed by it, but she did not like the drive. I mean, we took road trips down to North Carolina and stuff when we were in D. C. And she was like,

This is not what I thought it was going to be. It's expensive, and I thought it was just going to be like, a nice car.

But this feels like a


[00:53:40] Ken: That's not a smooth ride.




[00:53:41] Chuck: not. Yeah, yeah, you feel everything, and it was loud, and everything. some

[00:53:47] Ken: pretty sweet though top down

[00:53:48] Chuck: mm


[00:53:50] Ken: I put on fucking Thai dollar sign and drop the fucking roof. I'm like

[00:53:53] Chuck: Yeah, I had a 74 914 at one point and I was working at a casino one of the greatest fun memories that I have in my life of that car would be like three in the morning driving home with the target top off windows up heater on, but then just like seeing the clear sky in the desert.


[00:54:13] Ken: That's bananas.

[00:54:14] Chuck: it was awesome. Yeah, that car


[00:54:17] Ken: You're sat there like

[00:54:21] Chuck: Siri.

I don't know

[00:54:23] Ken: What band is that dude?

[00:54:24] Robbie: Um,

[00:54:43] Chuck: Airlines on blast right now because they lost a bunch of my luggage when, uh, when I was, uh, going to Italy for a wedding. And, uh, so I lost like my bands for this. And I was like, well, what am I going to get? Like,

[00:54:57] Ken: bands will make her dance.

[00:54:58] Chuck: yeah,

[00:55:01] Ken: No, but they actually will though Do you know what this is?

[00:55:07] Chuck: bunch of ones.

[00:55:08] Ken: Yeah, this is a certified band from Magic City in Atlanta.

[00:55:12] Chuck: Oh,



[00:55:14] Ken: it as a muse when I'm making rap

[00:55:16] Chuck: Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

[00:55:18] Ken: me why I'm doing it.

[00:55:19] Chuck: All right. Uh, greatest rap album ever named top, top five rap albums.

[00:55:25] Ken: Top five rap albums. Jesus Christ. You


do that to


[00:55:28] Chuck: Well,

[00:55:29] Robbie: like a couple at least.

[00:55:31] Chuck: have you

[00:55:31] Ken: Do I really have to be

[00:55:32] Chuck: Fidelity? You don't have to be anything.

[00:55:36] Ken: no

[00:55:36] Robbie: what do you enjoy? Not, not what, what everyone say is the,

[00:55:40] Chuck: Yeah,

what do

[00:55:40] Ken: like I enjoy a lot of what everyone would say like obviously people are gonna say like like Carter three and

also like Nostradamus quite a bit

[00:56:00] Chuck: Mm hmm.


[00:56:02] Ken: Knockboot and then um, I don't know. There's there's there's there's there's a lot there

[00:56:09] Chuck: You weren't expecting I was gonna come at you like this, but this is like, this is what it is. We

[00:56:14] Robbie: Speaking of rap, did you guys see the whole thing with uh, Snoop Dogg being like, I'm quitting smoke and like, yeah, and then it became like, Oh, it's a solo


[00:56:25] Ken: Solo stuff was it was that literally just a setup for a solo stove

[00:56:29] Chuck: It, it was. I had

[00:56:30] Robbie: and it was amazing. Yeah.

[00:56:32] Chuck: I heard that he was going to launch his own line of edibles and I was like, well, this makes sense.

[00:56:37] Robbie: That made more

[00:56:37] Chuck: that makes more sense. And then it ended

[00:56:40] Ken: I was

[00:56:40] Chuck: a

[00:56:40] Ken: I thought he had like COPD or something.

[00:56:42] Chuck: Yeah. I

[00:56:44] Ken: Have you seen him perform?

[00:56:46] Chuck: I have, but it was 1997 on Lollapalooza at Lollapalooza

was the

[00:56:54] Ken: I saw him perform like three months ago. It was fucking awesome

[00:56:56] Chuck: Yeah. I mean, he's good. He's no doubt.


[00:56:59] Ken: Do you guys have a solo stove?

[00:57:02] Chuck: I don't.

[00:57:03] Ken: They're fucking unreal

[00:57:04] Chuck: I have an

uni pizza maker.

[00:57:06] Ken: Unis are the best.

[00:57:07] Robbie: Mm mm.

[00:57:20] Ken: Sits on top. But you don't have, oh no, so did you see that they came out with a pizza maker? SolarStove?

[00:57:26] Robbie: I don't think so.

[00:57:28] Ken: Yeah, SolarStove has a pizza maker,


pizza oven.

[00:57:31] Robbie: Oh, you're saying they did? Okay, yeah, okay, I didn't know that.

[00:57:33] Chuck: Napolitana

[00:57:35] Ken: How do you, how do you feel about that style of pizza?

[00:57:38] Chuck: Napolitana

[00:57:40] Robbie: the best

[00:57:40] Chuck: is the best style, no doubt.

[00:57:42] Ken: I'm gonna have to go ahead and hard disagree.

[00:57:44] Robbie: ha.

[00:57:45] Chuck: And if it's Chicago, you're a liar.

[00:57:48] Ken: I'm from fucking New Jersey, where do you think I'm picking? Our

pizza. Right? Like, like I, don't get me wrong, I love a good margarita.

[00:57:57] Chuck: Yeah.

[00:57:58] Ken: Right? It's an unbelievable pain in the ass to, to make, you know,

[00:58:03] Chuck: This is the dough. Everything else is easy.


[00:58:06] Ken: well the dough is the, the dough hydration is a pain in my fucking tits. But like, do you do like San Marzano for the sauce?

[00:58:13] Chuck: I do, actually, we have a pretty long tomato season, so I can usually grow most of them myself.

So I'll do San Marzano's cans, the cans are good, the rest of the time, but I even, like, I'll grow my own, boil and peel, and then have basically the same process

[00:58:28] Robbie: Well, it's a lot of work.

[00:58:30] Chuck: It's fun though.

[00:58:30] Ken: I'm like seven different ways that I make pizza. And I like the margaritas in the,

in the, in the blast furnace. But I have a Breville smart oven and that does a pretty good job. I have a stone inside of my regular oven. That does a pretty good job. Have you ever grilled pizza?

[00:58:46] Chuck: I have actually.

[00:58:47] Ken: That does a phenomenal job as


[00:58:49] Chuck: It, it does its own thing


[00:58:50] Ken: as long as you can manage the heat so that the bottom doesn't get fucking snorched, right?


[00:58:55] Chuck: Yeah, but I've done,

[00:58:56] Ken: BigPizzaFan,

[00:58:58] Chuck: I love all pizza. So fun fact is, uh, we're working on moving to Italy actually.

[00:59:04] Ken: you're gonna literally move to Italy.

[00:59:07] Chuck: I've really, no,

[00:59:08] Ken: Are you Italian?

[00:59:09] Chuck: nope. I'm Irish and German, but I have some really good, uh, because it's amazing. I just like being there. It's like a great, like,

[00:59:17] Ken: in Italy are you looking to


[00:59:20] Chuck: like around Lake Como, so the province of Como, somewhere around there. I have some very close friends down around, uh, Na the Bay of Naples in the, do


[00:59:30] Ken: And you can just move there. You can just decide to move there. You don't have to have some employment sponsorship.

[00:59:34] Chuck: Uh, I make my own money, so, yeah, I mean, as long as you're able to


[00:59:38] Ken: to employ Italians?

[00:59:40] Chuck: Uh, no, I don't. Uh, you can get So, they have? Yeah, yeah. I need to get things done, so No offense, homies, sorry. Um

[00:59:49] Robbie: internet there. It's

[00:59:50] Chuck: No, actually, infrastructure has gotten much better, so there's a lot of that, because they've been trying to encourage people to, like, not move to the major cities or leave altogether, so infrastructure is a big thing, and that's improved a bunch over the last five years.

you can buy an incredible house in a,


like 200, 000. 200, 000.

[01:00:09] Ken: I was looking at the French castles, which you can do. Apparently there's a lot of like, bullshit around upkeep and historical

[01:00:18] Chuck: Don't get a crumbling villa. Right? Like you can get a normal one walkable to a bunch of restaurants

20 to 30 minutes. Yeah, just yeah Just take that flex seal with you and you're totally fine. But

[01:00:28] Ken: Fucks you.

[01:00:31] Chuck: Yeah, so good places lots of infrastructure like not problems two three hundred thousand dollars Palacio

[01:00:39] Ken: No, yeah, they have like sick fucking trains and shit like that.

[01:00:42] Robbie: Yeah, then you can also drive a Ferrari and it makes more sense and you've saved all the money on your house that it's, uh, it's

[01:00:49] Chuck: I have driven a Ferrari


[01:00:51] Ken: When are you looking to do

[01:00:52] Chuck: story a year and a half

sell my house by summer Uh, stay one more school year for the


[01:00:57] Ken: and you don't have any requirement. Like, what do you get? Like a resident visa?

[01:01:02] Chuck: so it's a couple different things They have a digital nomad visa. They don't have a process for it because italy right now. Um,

[01:01:09] Ken: to be like fucking levels.

[01:01:10] Chuck: But they do have resident I will I want to rent it first But if I had to buy then we might go down and then you get a residence

[01:01:18] Ken: Can you speak any Italian?

[01:01:20] Chuck: Uh, allora That's my favorite Italian word.

Allora. Uh, when I'm there for a bit, I speak enough to get by. My wife actually speaks Italian?

Um, no, she is not. She's Polish. but, and from Michigan. So that's a whole other thing. But she randomly took Italian in college and became good. And then we started


[01:01:42] Robbie: a good

[01:01:43] Chuck: and it just was.

[01:01:46] Ken: Are you going to establish an olive farm immediately

[01:01:49] Chuck: Uh, if I'm smart, I will. You can

[01:01:51] Ken: or a


[01:01:52] Chuck: I have actually seen for sale olive orchards and wineries and all that stuff. Yeah, like, they grow a lot of stuff there, so. Yes,


[01:02:03] Ken: that region.

[01:02:04] Chuck: I mean, let's,

[01:02:05] Ken: That's exciting.

[01:02:06] Chuck: yeah, I

[01:02:07] Ken: And then you're, then you're in the fucking Euroverse, right. Which is like, you know,

[01:02:11] Chuck: Everything's

[01:02:11] Ken: Germany is like going

to like fucking Ohio.

[01:02:14] Chuck: So I'm a big European football fan, too.

So like 40 minutes to Milan. 40

minutes to Milan. My number two team is Inter Milan, so like I can drive down there, join the ultras and just get fucking nuts. I love it. I like Amaro's. I'm, yeah.

There's nothing wrong with it.


kids like pizza. My kids like pizza and gelato every day. I mean, that's not hard.

And here's the funny thing is I can eat pasta, pizza, gelato every day. And I, I always weigh less after when I come back.

[01:02:47] Ken: See,


have the

[01:02:48] Robbie: use real food. I

[01:02:50] Ken: I make carbonara for myself like three times a week.

[01:02:53] Chuck: We talked about this on Twitter because I, I know a lot about this. I was like, use the Bucatini. It's a fucking level up

[01:02:59] Ken: Bucatini is lovely.

[01:03:01] Robbie: love

[01:03:01] Chuck: It's so good.

[01:03:02] Ken: You know, I was just at the supermarket the other day, trying to find it. You know what? I fucked up the other day and got angel hair. I didn't get angel hair. Somebody else got angel hair. And I tried to make this alfredo with angel hair, and it was like, devastating. This shit just fucking absorbs the sauce.

[01:03:16] Chuck: Angel hair is for very light butter sauces, like seafood, uh,

what is

[01:03:20] Ken: Regular, like, burrito,

like, spaghetti, that'll do. But like, yeah, that pucatini for the, uh, the amatriciana, that shit was fucking unreal.

[01:03:30] Chuck: and Carbonara, you need like,

[01:03:32] Robbie: Cacio e Pepe is one of my favorites.

Mm hmm.

It's so easy.

[01:03:37] Chuck: 7 Minute Bad Boys? Like that movie, Will Smith?

[01:03:40] Ken: No, no, no. Like you boil it very, very shortly for

[01:03:44] Chuck: Oh, you want a


[01:03:45] Ken: this fellow. Have you heard of him? Al dente.

[01:03:48] Chuck: Yes. Al dente. I

love al. al. knows what's up. Especially if you're gonna toss it back in a hot pan. You want to get


little more al dente. And then, ah, I

[01:03:57] Robbie: Cause it'll cook

[01:03:57] Chuck: going. The pancetta. Oof.


[01:04:00] Ken: no, no, I use the what is it the guanciale or whatever?

[01:04:04] Robbie: Oh yeah. Yeah.

Pork jowl.

[01:04:06] Chuck: Yeah, the guanciale.

And, uh, it's

[01:04:09] Ken: source that look I have that I have that shit in my fridge as we speak I'm able to source that locally because I live in italyville.

[01:04:17] Chuck: Yeah, basically. Yeah, all for sure. And I, you know, I'm not afraid of a pork roll.

[01:04:23] Ken: No? You know about pork

[01:04:24] Chuck: I do know that. I

I've been to

[01:04:27] Ken: either way, dude. I

made, I made carbonara like a month ago with fucking bacon. I don't

[01:04:30] Chuck: yeah, if you got, you do what you gotta do, right? Yeah.

[01:04:33] Ken: I'm really in here for the, uh, Uh, what is it, cheese? It's not parmesan, it's the, uh, Buh, buh, buh,


that's right. I'm here for that pecorino and fresh grated black

[01:04:44] Chuck: Fuck



[01:04:45] Ken: You motherfuckers are making me hungry right


[01:04:47] Robbie: Yeah. Yeah.

[01:04:48] Chuck: Well, you get the drinking and now you're hungry and like, I


[01:04:51] Ken: That's usually how that goes.

Did you see my little bitch meals that I made?

[01:04:56] Chuck: Little bitch


[01:04:57] Ken: Mm hmm.

[01:04:58] Robbie: Yeah.

I saw that. The line of all that shit.

[01:05:01] Ken: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I've been eating those. Those are like firmly 550 calories each.

[01:05:06] Chuck: Yeah.

[01:05:07] Ken: So, it's left a little to be desired.

[01:05:10] Robbie: Yeah. It's like one

bite of catch away pepe. Yeah.

[01:05:14] Chuck: Five Guys though is worth it. Shaq appreciates your purchase, just so you know.

[01:05:19] Ken: My wife did not appreciate the


[01:05:22] Chuck: Did you know the hack for Five Guys is that you can get extra bacon for no cost?

Like, yeah,

[01:05:29] Robbie: Wait, how do you do that.

[01:05:30] Chuck: you ask for extra bacon, and like, you give your toppings, and you say extra bacon, and they don't charge you. It's amazing.

[01:05:37] Robbie: Well, isn't that the same for anything? If you asked and they didn't

key it

[01:05:42] Chuck: that's just how it is like every

[01:05:44] Ken: No, you go add extra bacon other places, they're charging

[01:05:46] Chuck: they're charging you a hundred percent So that's the hack for there is that you can


[01:05:50] Robbie: Can

you get it on

[01:05:50] Ken: four dollars per extra.

[01:05:52] Chuck: I Used to work above a five guys in DC and I got it far too often So I always knew like


[01:05:59] Ken: remember correctly, Five Guys is a DC franchise.

[01:06:02] Chuck: there of Virginia or something They're from the area

[01:06:05] Robbie: East, East Coast for



[01:06:07] Ken: It's been out here for quite some time, but, uh, it started there.

[01:06:10] Chuck: Yeah, so

[01:06:12] Ken: have Jersey Mike's?

[01:06:13] Chuck: Yep

[01:06:14] Robbie: Oh yeah, fucking love

[01:06:15] Chuck: I

[01:06:15] Ken: I'm like a mile from the original one.

[01:06:17] Chuck: Oh,


[01:06:18] Ken: I know all the dudes who, like, run it and shit, like, the owners and everything, it's fuckin cool.

[01:06:22] Chuck: gotta go back to burgers though, hold on. So five guys

[01:06:25] Ken: Yeah, go back.

[01:06:26] Chuck: Five guys are in and out.

[01:06:27] Robbie: That's not even a


[01:06:29] Ken: guys.

[01:06:30] Robbie: Yeah, In N Out is trash. You heard it here


[01:06:34] Ken: Yeah, you know what i'm gonna go ahead and echo that

[01:06:36] Chuck: You're so

wrong. Have

[01:06:37] Ken: everyone fucking cali bros And then you go and you have it you're like this is fucking what the fuck is this

it's just like roy

[01:06:47] Robbie: Like, it's not

any better. It's like

[01:06:49] Chuck: chopped chilies, animal

[01:06:50] Robbie: No,

[01:06:51] Ken: No, bro, you

[01:06:52] Robbie: you add

[01:06:52] Ken: fucking triple double animal style.

[01:06:55] Robbie: Yeah, if you add a bunch of shit to it, then that's, that's not

[01:06:58] Chuck: Fuck you guys, right?


[01:07:00] Ken: Fuck In N Out burger.

[01:07:02] Robbie: Yeah,

[01:07:02] Chuck: So, wait, have you seen the burger show? The First We Feast shows? Okay, you gotta watch that if you love burgers because it's amazing. And there's one where they basically like, so it's West Coast dude, East Coast dude, and they do, they make their own Shake Shack and they make their own In N Out. And they're like, okay, yeah, we'll kind of trade back and forth.

And then we're like, now let's make the ultimate burger. Shake Shack has the better quality meat, 100%, no doubt. That's why it's more expensive.

[01:07:29] Ken: Shake Shack is


[01:07:30] Chuck: Shake Shack's delicious. And they make it in an out style though. So they do a Shake Shack burger in an out style. And I learned that animal style means before you flip it, you put a smear of mustard on there and then you sear mustard

[01:07:45] Ken: all animal style is I thought that was


[01:07:47] Chuck: well, it's the sauce, and yeah, it has the

[01:07:49] Ken: pickles and onions or


[01:07:50] Chuck: yeah, it's, it's the, it's the extra sauce, the special sauce, and then, um, grilled onions, normally, but I throw on some chopped chilies,

because I

[01:08:01] Ken: I remember like eight years ago. I got off a plane in SFO

[01:08:05] Chuck: mmm,

[01:08:06] Ken: and I had to I had to go somewhere close, right? It was like San Bruno like same fucking town right and I asked them I said, uh, I have got to try In N Out I have to see what this is all about. And mind you, I was drinking the entire time on the plane.

[01:08:19] Chuck: surprise, this is my surprise side, yeah, this is my

[01:08:23] Ken: Imagine drinking and getting off a plane and then you go to in and out and you're unimpressed.

[01:08:27] Chuck: Hmm. I don't know what

[01:08:29] Ken: It's gotta be fucking mid.

[01:08:30] Chuck: I don't know what you did

[01:08:31] Robbie: Yeah, it is very mid.

[01:08:33] Chuck: It's better than fuckin Arby's burgers, and you were willing to


[01:08:35] Robbie: Well,

[01:08:36] Ken: never had an Arby's burger in my life. I just wanted to have it on the basis of fucking Keenan and Kel.

[01:08:41] Chuck: Right, right. That's fair. I mean, I

[01:08:43] Ken: I've never, I

don't think there is an Arby's a mile and a half from my house and I've never eaten Arby's in my life.

[01:08:49] Chuck: Hmm. I mean, beef and cheddar.

[01:08:52] Ken: I've

[01:08:52] Robbie: Yeah, I like their roast beef and I like their fries,

[01:08:55] Chuck: Yeah. Well I I like their old fries, so I'm old school. I hated when


make their crispy fries. Yeah, curly fries are okay. Their original greasy fries were good to me. I like greasy fries. That's why inn out

or not inn out. Uh, five guys fries are delicious 'cause they're greasy as fuck. They're like giant bag of fries.


[01:09:12] Ken: of fries and you know it. Nobody's fucking with Burger


[01:09:16] Chuck: Chick fil a

waffle fries.

[01:09:17] Robbie: I, I think that's a, a,

[01:09:19] Ken: I fuck with

Chick-fil-A heavily

[01:09:22] Robbie: is some of the better fries. And I think that's like a, a little known thing. Like most people shit on Burger King.


[01:09:29] Ken: Burger King, fries and Whopper. Dude, if you had a fucking whopper, it's like the most unbelievable thing that fucking ever


[01:09:34] Chuck: yeah.

[01:09:35] Ken: Even the impossible Whopper was good, and I ate that


[01:09:38] Chuck: don't even, know why. Yeah, that's true. They're, they're impossible. It's good. I don't even know why like anybody talks about McDonald's anymore. I only go to McDonald's because my kids make me sometimes.

[01:09:48] Ken: So I I have, I have a, a low key winner for you. Have you ever had a McChicken with cheese?

[01:09:56] Chuck: No.

[01:09:57] Robbie: Mm mm.

[01:09:57] Chuck: Spicy McChicken or just regular?

[01:09:59] Ken: regular McChicken with cheese. It'll change your fucking life.

[01:10:02] Robbie: Mm. Sounds so simple.

[01:10:04] Chuck: does.

[01:10:05] Ken: She's giving me the food order right now. We're ordering from a local establishment. She asked, uh. Should she get the fish tacos or the Nashville hot salad? And I don't know if you could tell but i'm kind of an anti salad kind of guy

[01:10:17] Robbie: But Nashville hot is

[01:10:19] Chuck: Nashville

[01:10:19] Ken: Nashville hot's delicious, but and then it's a salad

[01:10:23] Chuck: Right. Like, do you want a shit salad later or do you want to have these fish tacos? That's


[01:10:28] Robbie: ha

[01:10:28] Chuck: is. Do you want a shit lettuce? Yeah, I'd go fish tacos all day long. Is it, are they fried or grilled?

[01:10:34] Ken: fried.

[01:10:35] Chuck: Fish tacos. 100%.

[01:10:37] Ken: Yeah,

fish tacos are fucking unreal.

[01:10:38] Chuck: Don't, you know, don't front. You just want something crunchy?

Go fish tacos.

[01:10:42] Ken: we should be eating my meals that I made but

[01:10:46] Robbie: Yeah. Ha


[01:10:47] Chuck: you know, that's a silent vote.

[01:10:49] Robbie: Just seems

[01:10:50] Chuck: I don't,

[01:10:50] Ken: Daddy spent too much time on the podcast. So I just realized, so I looked at a previous order. It was like an order it again, and this is, this is unreal. So they have, they have tater tots here

[01:11:03] Chuck: mm hmm.

[01:11:06] Ken: has, has short rib tots. And mine has my thing that I order is disco tots. Do you know what disco fries are?

[01:11:15] Robbie: No.

[01:11:16] Chuck: I know what a

[01:11:17] Ken: And so,

[01:11:18] Chuck: is, but,

[01:11:19] Ken: so yeah, disco stick, right? Whatever. disco fries in New Jersey is if you go to a diner, they'll give you fries with gravy and cheese on them.

[01:11:27] Robbie: Oh, so it's poutine.

[01:11:28] Chuck: yeah,

[01:11:29] Ken: It's basically like poutine,

but it's like New Jersey poutine.

[01:11:32] Chuck: mm

[01:11:32] Robbie: I fuck with


[01:11:33] Ken: Have you guys been to a New Jersey diner?

[01:11:36] Chuck: Probably, I have, I've, I've,

[01:11:39] Ken: Fucking unreal.

[01:11:40] Chuck: I mean, we could have a whole other episode about my time in New Jersey. I

[01:11:44] Ken: It's like a Chrome trailer and you

go in and there's a fucking 83, 000 things on the menu.

[01:11:49] Chuck: Do you know what the palace of depression

[01:11:51] Robbie: Okay.

[01:11:56] Ken: the palace of this depression?

[01:11:58] Chuck: Google it. It's like this whole thing made of mud that was made during the depression and And was in the movie Eddie and the Cruisers.

What do you know about that? Eddie and the Cruisers,

[01:12:09] Ken: Not a goddamn thing.

[01:12:10] Chuck: New Jersey it's not just about the Seaside

[01:12:14] Ken: Oh, it was in Violent.

[01:12:16] Chuck: Yes, but it is like


[01:12:20] Ken: That's actually kind of fascinating.

[01:12:22] Chuck: You're welcome.

[01:12:25] Ken: Huh.

[01:12:25] Chuck: for I think we're gonna have to have a part two

if I can lock

[01:12:28] Robbie: no idea how long this has actually been going on, but I feel like more than an hour now because I cut

out and

came back, so it doesn't tell me the real

time. Okay, so we can probably

end this.

[01:12:38] Ken: Do you guys want a part two this?

[01:12:40] Chuck: yeah, I want

to part to this. I 100 percent want to part to this Are you going to react Miami by the way? I know

[01:12:45] Ken: I think so. I submitted my CFP.

[01:12:48] Chuck: and they're all obviously gonna accept you because


[01:12:51] Ken: I don't know. I don't know. I'm actually getting a little fucking worried. I haven't heard anything

[01:12:55] Chuck: Yeah, I don't know what's going on there.

[01:12:57] Robbie: Well, we'll probably be

[01:12:58] Ken: a

[01:12:58] Chuck: We'll just show up.

Both of us can stay on, uh, Dax's couch. I have

[01:13:04] Robbie: We'll set up a table next to Prime and Theo and be like,

[01:13:08] Chuck: And just

[01:13:08] Robbie: guys, and we're gonna talk

[01:13:10] Chuck: I'm

[01:13:10] Ken: do you know them? They're nice guys

[01:13:12] Chuck: Yeah, Prime's been on a couple times, so we're friends. I guess? I'm

assuming we're

[01:13:16] Robbie: on them, I'm just,

[01:13:17] Ken: prime's a good guy. Have you seen him in person?

[01:13:19] Chuck: no.


[01:13:20] Ken: He's way like taller and handsome than you think he would be

[01:13:23] Chuck: Yeah.

It's all that

[01:13:24] Ken: You know anything he's like

[01:13:25] Robbie: Yeah.

[01:13:26] Ken: Then you like see him and you're like, oh, he's like a fucking normal kind of chill guy Like,

[01:13:29] Robbie: Yeah, yeah,

[01:13:30] Ken: know, like good good fucking guy. Theo too. Theo's tall as fuck.

[01:13:34] Chuck: Yeah, well that I


guess. I get That



[01:13:38] Ken: No, no He's like egregiously tall. You're like

[01:13:40] Chuck: like 6'5 tall. Yeah, whatever. I'm not. I'm not tall.

[01:13:44] Ken: How tall are


[01:13:45] Robbie: All

[01:13:53] Ken: it

[01:13:53] Chuck: if you're not wearing that robe the entire time we're there, I don't want to even go.

[01:13:56] Robbie: Yeah, we'll, we'll get the same robes and we'll show


[01:13:59] Chuck: Mm hmm.

[01:13:59] Ken: Dude, we should all do that and sit by the pool. That's what I did the first day. You want to hear a funny story about React Miami last year?

[01:14:05] Robbie: What's that?


[01:14:20] Ken: So they're all outside at the pool, just chilling on their computers and shit like that. And I fucking roll up with like, carry on luggage. I'm like, let's get fucked up. Right?

[01:14:28] Chuck: hmm.

[01:14:28] Ken: right, I pull up and get fucked up. We just eat food and drink like I'm just slaying drinks.

I have a signature drink called the hoochie daddy punch, right? It's like pinot grigio With like peach schnapps and some other shit in it, right?


[01:14:41] Chuck: Hehehehe That sounds

[01:14:42] Ken: it's a very summery kind of drink, right? So i'm sitting there. We're all fucked up. We're having a good time And i'm like, whoa, i'm like, all right All right, I gotta get ready for this like speaker dinner thing I'm, like i'm gonna head back to the room.

So I go to the room And I fucking fall asleep.

[01:14:55] Chuck: Hehehehe

[01:14:57] Ken: I'm like too drunk. I fall asleep, right?

[01:14:59] Chuck: For sure.


[01:15:02] Ken: until like fucking 83 missed calls from my wife, dude. She's like, she's like, what the fuck?

Furious. Right? So I like call her and I'm like, I'm like, Hey, I am so sorry. I'm like, I fucking was just chilling at the pool with Sunil and passed out. And she's like, you motherfucker, da da da da. And like dude, it was like this whole thing. And um, I hit, I hit them up. I'm like, what are you guys doing? They're like, we're out. I'm like, alright, I'll be there in five minutes. I took a shower. I fucking dipped out. I'm like, let's go!

[01:15:30] Chuck: Yeah,

back at It

[01:15:32] Ken: I fucking love Miami.

[01:15:33] Chuck: I want to get rich at Jason. I'm ready for that.

[01:15:36] Ken: That's like the fourth or fifth time that's happened to me in Miami.

[01:15:40] Chuck: Okay.


[01:15:41] Ken: and her went out and got all fucked up one time and I punched a stop sign. And then we

passed out. This is like the night before a cruise. Like, you know, you have that like day before cruise in Miami.

[01:15:51] Chuck: Yeah.

[01:15:52] Ken: We like had that and like, we're like, we woke up and we're like, Oh no, we fucking blew our night in Miami.

And then we were like, wait, hold on a minute. It's 9 15 PM.

[01:16:02] Robbie: Uh,

[01:16:07] Chuck: Oh man.

[01:16:07] Robbie: All right. Well, we should wrap this up. We can definitely do a part two. Uh, is there anything you want to plug or mention before we end?

[01:16:14] Ken: Not at all. Fellas.

[01:16:16] Robbie: Just, just give me the opportunity. All right. Cool. Uh, thanks everyone for listening. If you like it, please subscribe and we'll catch you next time.

[01:16:25] Chuck: Boom. Boom. Boom. Boom.