Whiskey Web and Whatnot

A whiskey fueled fireside chat with your favorite web developers.


105: Hot Takes, React, and WebAssembly with Jack Herrington

Show Notes

By now we know that an engineer with skin in the game is a senior engineer. Experience teaches wisdom and Jack Herrington, Principal Full Stack Engineer, has plenty of it.

Jack dissects the various programming languages from old school to new school, sharing anecdotes and opinions on PHP, ColdFusion, and React. He explores the ongoing JS fatigue phenomenon and emerging alternatives like Deno and Quick. Though Jack is up to date on the latest in tech, he questions the need for complex toolchains and whether simpler solutions, like HTML and JavaScript, might suffice.

In this episode, Jack talks to Robbie and Chuck about polarizing tech topics, whether React Server Components changed React, and the state of Web Assembly.

Key Takeaways

  • [01:15] - Intro to Jack Herrington.
  • [02:04] - A whiskey review: Barrell Private Release Amaro Cask Finish.
  • [09:53] - Tech hot takes.
  • [19:51] - Did RSCs turn React into PHP?
  • [29:00] - Big architectural changes at Vercel.
  • [30:31] - Jack’s opinion on the future of the web.
  • [36:09] - Jack talks about interesting things happening on Nextdoor.
  • [39:43] - Jack gives Chuck pizza-making tips and tricks.
  • [44:49] - What Jack’s career would be if he weren’t in tech.


[14:04] - “If you give somebody else your problem to solve, they’re becoming a better engineer while you are not.” ~ Jack Herrington

[32:30] - “There’s a whole form validation system right in the browser, and nobody uses it.” ~ Jack Herrington

[48:05] - “The approach that I have to coding is very practical. I like building stuff for customers, so that's the way I teach it.” ~ Jack Herrington


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[00:00:05] Robbie: What's going on everybody? Welcome to another special live ish edition of Whiskey Web and whatnot. With your hosts, Robbie, the Wagner, and Charles William Carpenter, the third.

[00:00:16] Chuck: I'm gonna need you to call me Willie. Big Willie style the

[00:00:19] Robbie: All right. This is Big Willie style. Okay.

[00:00:21] Chuck: don't know. Yeah, yeah. I'm very important.

[00:00:24] Robbie: Yeah. Yeah. So we have a special guest today, Jack Herrington. How's it going, Jack?

[00:00:30] Jack: How's that? It's great. Yeah. Enjoying, uh, the whiskey ish? I mean, it's just new for me. I'm not really a whiskey fan, so it's,

[00:00:38] Chuck: Well, we're hoping to change that. Yeah. Yeah. Or at

[00:00:40] Jack: Yeah. I mean, a little

[00:00:41] Chuck: you open to

[00:00:42] Robbie: Yeah. Yeah. The secret is to just make it all up. You smell it and you're like, oh, you know, arbitrary shit, like, oh, uh, tastes like new shoes, or like, yeah.

[00:00:51] Chuck: this

[00:00:51] Jack: would the other one I had as old Medley? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. That's

[00:00:55] Chuck: an old Medley 12

[00:00:56] Jack: kind

[00:00:56] Robbie: kind of whiskey day.

[00:00:57] Jack: old medley

[00:00:58] Robbie: can't

[00:00:59] Chuck: medley. It's the old one. Don't get the young medley.

[00:01:02] Jack: You wouldn't want the new medley. Yeah, you want the,

[00:01:05] Chuck: gotta sit in barrels for a while, right? That would be gross. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:01:08] Robbie: I'm already getting ahead of myself though. I forgot to let you introduce yourself and say who you are and what you do. So, let's do that. Uh, so

[00:01:13] Jack intro

[00:01:13] Jack: so I'm a principal full stack engineer, and I also am a YouTuber, and my channel is called the Blue Collar Coder. I do mostly React, XJS stuff, but really full stack. Yeah. It's been really fun.

[00:01:27] Robbie: Some

[00:01:27] Chuck: So, rust, otherwise

[00:01:29] Jack: Actually, funny you say that. Actually, I'm going to do a Rust video coming up pretty soon.

[00:01:32] Chuck: Oh, cool. Yeah. All right. So there

[00:01:34] Jack: I think I did a Rust video a couple weeks ago. So, yeah. Nice. Change it up. You know, try different things.

[00:01:40] Robbie: Yeah, Rust's cool now, so.

[00:01:42] Chuck: Exactly.

[00:01:43] Jack: Prime. You've heard

[00:01:44] Chuck: Primo? Yeah, he's been on,

[00:01:45] Jack: Okay. So yeah, he's making Russ cool.

[00:01:47] Chuck: Yeah. Yeah. I mean after that milk video, but we'll get into that maybe. Yeah.

[00:01:51] Jack: the milk, I don't even understand. Yeah.

[00:01:54] Robbie: don't think people, anyone does.

[00:01:55] Jack: for that. Yeah. So, yeah.

[00:01:56] Whiskey selection

[00:01:56] Chuck: yeah. Alright. So, let's get into the whiskey. Today, folks, we have the barrel. Yes, I know we've done a lot of barrels but this

[00:02:03] Robbie: one we love barrels.

[00:02:05] Chuck: Uh, yeah. Barrels with two L's and that's the name of the distillery. It's one of their private releases. It is, uh, finished in an Amaro cask of other words that I can't read or say. Uh, it's 124. 16 proof. So, it's a hot one. Coming in hot. Uh, they're not age stated, but that's because they do a blend anyway, that's kind of their thing. It does say that it is a blend of both Kentucky and Indiana whiskeys, so that means some sourced MGP stuff. But, without further ado, let's get to it. I'm gonna do the pop sound, because it's fun.

[00:02:36] Jack: Oh, yeah, yeah,

[00:02:37] Robbie: Yeah. We can't do the pour because it's not our whiskey. Oh yeah. Yeah, so

[00:02:41] Chuck: so we are currently located in a whiskey, private club whiskey library, because that's some fancy shit. Yeah.

[00:02:47] Jack: Oh wow. That's, that's that.

[00:02:48] Robbie: Jack likes it. Yeah, he loves it.

[00:02:50] Chuck: Jack's a whiskey man now.

[00:02:51] Robbie: Oh

[00:02:51] Jack: Lord. That, that burn's going

[00:02:54] Robbie: like uh, dragon fruit candy to me.

[00:02:56] Chuck: Oh, I don't even know what

[00:02:58] Jack: is 124 or how does that, how does that rate.

[00:03:00] Robbie: A Little high.

[00:03:01] Chuck: Yeah, that's hot. That would be hot. Yeah, that would, yeah. That's a lot of, uh, the, the angel took a lot of the, a lot of the water out. Yeah. Uh, it feels, actually has a little bit of like, have you ever had, uh, chocolate covered cherries like that cordial.

[00:03:15] Jack: Um, yeah. Is that what it feels like? You, it

[00:03:18] Robbie: It smells

[00:03:19] Chuck: like that a little bit to me. Some of that like, a

[00:03:21] Robbie: kind of tastes like scallops, Are you getting that? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:03:25] Chuck: turns out that it smells like

[00:03:27] Jack: Well, it doesn't. No, I don't, I don't smell that

[00:03:28] Chuck: Close your legs Robbie.

[00:03:29] Robbie: all. God. Okay.

[00:03:32] Chuck: Hmm.

[00:03:33] Jack: Well that one, the third try hit a little bit less. So yeah.

[00:03:36] Robbie: Are

[00:03:37] Chuck: Ooh.

[00:03:37] Jack: you guys done with that? I'm, I'm, I think it's a sip and whiskey for

[00:03:40] Robbie: It is, um, it is alcoholy.

[00:03:43] Chuck: It is. There's a, there's a lot of burn there, but I am really getting like a deep kind of cordially, like sweetness to it. Yeah. Quite a bit of sweetness to it.

[00:03:51] Robbie: Yeah, it's like a syrupy sweet candy with like rubbing alcohol

[00:03:55] Chuck: Right, right. Like, uh, guaranteed heartburn later.

[00:03:58] Jack: Yeah, this is,

[00:03:59] Chuck: Um, and it's a small amount here we have to sample, but I am going to still try and sample it both ways, so I'm going to have it first, uh, up, as distiller intended, and then we'll, probably for another drink, I'll, I'll, uh, add a couple drops of water, and that can

[00:04:13] Jack: Oh, is that Oh, oh,

[00:04:14] Chuck: yeah,

[00:04:15] Robbie: Make it a little less intense.

[00:04:16] Jack: I was like, I was noticing you sw swirling

[00:04:19] Chuck: Yeah, well, it's like, it's like aeration. I actually just think it's fun, I don't think it does anything for it, really, I mean, it's...

[00:04:26] Jack: put it through like one of those kind of

[00:04:27] Chuck: Yeah. Here we go. I'm gonna like get the paper so that I can see its color and quality.

[00:04:33] Robbie: are the legs on this?

[00:04:34] Chuck: what are the legs like on it? Uh, looks like really alcoholy. Um, no, but I get a lot of sweetness in the front and maybe, uh, a tinge of some, uh, some bitter there from like a, I don't know. Uh, orange r citrus rye, something like that. Arbitrary.

[00:04:49] Jack: to have helped it a little bit.

[00:04:50] Chuck: Yeah, it makes it, Alright, Jack, so, okay. The, uh, The way that we do this is, uh, we have a very simple rating system.

[00:04:59] Robbie: No, it's very complex.

[00:05:00] Chuck: yeah.

[00:05:00] Jack: One to eight tentacles.

[00:05:02] Chuck: because that's a whole play on an octopus. One being, uh, terrible, I don't want this anymore. Eight being amazing, please always give me this whiskey. Or... Spirit. Okay. And for just being like, okay, so I, I know you said you're not a big whiskey fan. Sure. So just in comparison. You can't

[00:05:18] Jack: a whiskey fan, I guess.

[00:05:19] Chuck: don't even have to. Like, if it's a one because you just hate this shit, that's totally fine too. Uh, so.

[00:05:25] Jack: nice. You know, I mean...

[00:05:26] Chuck: That would you prefer other

[00:05:27] Jack: You can compare it You prefer other

[00:05:30] Chuck: libations and that's totally fine. Yeah. Yeah. So we'll just kind of keep it in the whiskey family of, of whiskeys you've tried and you've had

[00:05:36] Jack: I've tried, this is very nice, yeah. Right. So maybe, uh, five? Yeah, I think

[00:05:42] Chuck: Yeah, I think that's a, that's

[00:05:43] Robbie: above. Yeah. Better than average. Yeah.

[00:05:45] Chuck: yeah. Above

[00:05:46] Robbie: average Average for

[00:05:46] Chuck: you. You're probably not reaching for it all the time, but you appreciate it for what it's, yeah. Yeah. I mean, if somebody serviced

[00:05:51] Robbie: to

[00:05:51] Jack: you'd be like, oh, that's a whiskey.

[00:05:53] Chuck: Yeah, that's, and you'd be like, oh, that's a whiskey

[00:05:56] Jack: yeah.

[00:05:56] Chuck: It's a little more diverse. It's got a, which apparently is

[00:05:59] Robbie: Secondly, I would put it on, on the rock.

[00:06:01] Chuck: That is only me. Uh, well, in this

[00:06:03] Robbie: That is a singular rock. That is a singular

[00:06:04] Chuck: rock, so you have a large ice block. Uh, brought in and shaved down by your bartender. Yeah, I would agree that it does.

[00:06:11] Robbie: though. That it does.

[00:06:12] Chuck: so five, I think five.

[00:06:13] Jack: I'm going to do the sacrilegious. I'm actually

[00:06:15] Robbie: going Were you also saying five? I'm going

[00:06:17] Chuck: Uh, I am not, I'm going to pass it to you because

[00:06:19] Robbie: Oh, to me?

[00:06:20] Chuck: of talking.

[00:06:21] Robbie: Um, yeah, so we love this brand usually. This one, I don't hate it, but it's not like, this is one of the lower ones I feel like of the ones I've had of theirs, so Um

[00:06:32] Jack: a boutique brand?

[00:06:34] Robbie: Yeah, so they, I don't know, they do interesting, like the name is Barrel, and they do a lot of interesting barrels, like they'll put it in like a Cabernet Cask, and like different stuff. Um, so this one's a little bit less interesting to me, there's not as many different flavors, so I'm gonna say four.

[00:06:50] Chuck: Oh, interesting. Okay. Uh, first... So

[00:06:52] Jack: some wine connection they can like, use.

[00:06:55] Chuck: Uh, used barrels just as a finishing process. So it's common for distilleries to do that just to like change a flavor profile of, of uh, and it's not always a blend. They're doing a blend here to just get to a particular flavor profile that they think will mature well in this, in this finishing process. Uh, I mean it's like usually no longer than six months. Can be like a month, usually up to about six months. But nothing crazy. This one does have a lot of that in it, so I would think they probably went. Pretty far with this particular Amaro. The thing about Amaros too, is that they can be all kinds of stuff. Like Limoncello's Amaro, like there's, and everything in between there. so this seems to like, askew to the sweeter side of that. So, for those reasons, I kind of agree with Robbie, but I was actually going to side with you in terms of the,

[00:07:40] Jack: Yeah, we're all

[00:07:41] Chuck: rating. It's above average for me. Okay. I think they do good stuff. It's interesting, but I think they're like too much sweetness, a little overpowering for the sweetness. And these things are usually at least a hundred bucks a bottle. Whoa. And can go up from there. And so, yeah. No value for, for, for

[00:07:55] Jack: how many pours do I get out of the bottle?

[00:07:57] Robbie: Uh,

[00:07:57] Chuck: well, it depends on who's pouring it, right? Yeah. You can get a lot

[00:08:00] Jack: we got here?

[00:08:01] Chuck: Uh, 750 milliliters is a normal,

[00:08:04] Robbie: It's 25 ounces. So that's like 20. If you've

[00:08:06] Jack: pour, you can talk in

[00:08:07] Chuck: oh, there you

[00:08:07] Jack: 12 pours, 12 and a half pours. So Yeah, okay. It's not, I mean, you

[00:08:12] Chuck: Yeah, I'm not terrible for that. If you, so this is like probably two or three days for me, worth of. Whiskey. Um,

[00:08:19] Robbie: you say two or three days? Two,

[00:08:20] Chuck: or three days? That's probably,

[00:08:21] Robbie: No, no. Like two or three bottles of this would be two or three days. for you.

[00:08:27] Jack: two or three days. Ah,

[00:08:28] Chuck: Okay. There we go. Now you're leaning in. So anyway, I'm going five as well and I'm kind of personally just, comparing it to the other barrels that we've had and, and certainly been some there some better. There's probably been one that was like, oh, this isn't great.

[00:08:41] Robbie: that's why I did four. What's

[00:08:42] Jack: what's, what's the eight? What's the Octo,

[00:08:45] Chuck: Uh, gosh.

[00:08:48] Robbie: Forester Prohibition one.

[00:08:50] Chuck: Oh, the 1920? That's a high one for me. Yeah,

[00:08:52] Robbie: And our barrel pick, because we have good taste, we feel like. Yeah.

[00:08:56] Jack: Okay. Yeah. We

[00:08:56] Chuck: we did a, yeah, we did a barrel pick from, uh, distillery out of, actually, Baltimore. Um, So

[00:09:03] Jack: like, get it right out of the barrel,

[00:09:05] Chuck: they sent samples and then you choose outta that. You can, there are places where you can go

[00:09:09] Jack: Yeah,

[00:09:10] Chuck: And then they'll let you, you can go, yeah, same thing. And you try, there you go. Yep. Yeah. They have the, the whiskey thief is what they call it. Yeah. It's a little copper thing. And then, uh, and then you try a bunch of them and you decide which one you want, and then you buy the whole barrel. But then, They don't ship you a barrel, they actually

[00:09:24] Robbie: that would be logistically a nightmare. Yeah.

[00:09:28] Jack: a half a cow. Yeah. They actually give you, you know,

[00:09:30] Chuck: Yeah. They're

[00:09:30] Robbie: let's cut it in half and mail it. Yeah.

[00:09:33] Chuck: they put it on ice. Come on. They're not, they're not, you know, they're not barbarian to waste all that, so, uh, yeah. So it went five anyway.

[00:09:41] Robbie: not bad by any means. Just segmenting with Beryl, it was not as good as the others. But, yeah. Oh, So

[00:09:46] Chuck: so should we get, should we turn up the heat?

[00:09:48] Robbie: heat? With some hot takes? Hot takes, Yeah. hot takes, Alright. Alright.

[00:09:51] Chuck: takes, takes.

[00:09:52] Robbie: So, uh, yeah. you want to start or do you start?

[00:09:56] Chuck: Uh,

[00:09:57] Robbie: It doesn't

[00:09:57] Robbie: matter. you start. Okay. In TypeScript, inferred types or explicit types?

[00:10:02] Jack: Oh, uh, explicit. Mm. Oh no, actually inferred types.

[00:10:06] Robbie: Okay. are you sure?

[00:10:07] Jack: yeah,

[00:10:07] Robbie: yeah, Alright.

[00:10:08] Chuck: answer.

[00:10:08] Jack: Well, I mean, you hit me out. Yeah. Okay. But, uh, yeah, I mean, I don't really like to overdo it. I mean, if it, if it can be inferred Sure. Go for it. Yeah,

[00:10:16] Robbie: sure. yeah, yeah. I agree with that.

[00:10:18] Chuck: Trust the folks who work around you. I think. Sometimes. I mean, libraries and things like that.

[00:10:23] Jack: I mean, I do, I actually do, um, uh, you know, a lot of, uh, uh, template types, Alrighty.

[00:10:28] Robbie: here's

[00:10:28] Tailwind vs vanilla CSS

[00:10:28] Chuck: one for you. CSS or Vanilla CSS? Tailwind.

[00:10:32] Robbie: Vanilla

[00:10:33] Chuck: There we go. Okay.

[00:10:34] Jack: Although big fan of Panda.

[00:10:36] Robbie: we go. Yeah. I have not heard of Panda.

[00:10:37] Jack: Oh, wow. You guys,

[00:10:38] Chuck: I thought that was those little chocolate, like, Asian cookies. Those are good.

[00:10:42] Jack: No, I'm doing a video on Panda on Friday and it's a CSS and JS solution that has all of the tailwind shorthands in it. really nice. And it works with RSCs, the app writer, all of that stuff. So you don't get that sort of issue, but they also have this ability to define atomic CSS types. Like you can literally just kind of like create this generic version of button. Right? It's it's rounded. It's this it's that you can make it solid. You can make an outline, whatever, and you can use those in whatever you could use it in Svelte You can use it in react. And so when you think about these companies that are like the big Nike's the world or whatever walmart's and they've got like this team wants to be on Svelte and that team wants to be on react. And the problem was like, okay, well, they're all going to need to create their own like components and everything. This really helps out with that because you basically create the one sort of atomic set and then each of those teams can kind of skin those with whatever the local native like button is or whatever it is. Yeah. That's pretty cool. Actually, I'm really blown away by Panda.

[00:11:43] Chuck: Huh. Yeah, we'll have to look that one up. Yeah, yeah. Why not?

[00:11:45] Robbie: Yeah, hopefully people can argue about it on Twitter soon. Oh,

[00:11:48] Jack: I'm sure they will. js and RCEs. It's like,

[00:11:51] Chuck: of the big things about, like, js and RCEs. Like,

[00:11:56] Jack: State management and CSS. Those are the two, like, they kind of flip the apple cart on that, and people are trying to figure out, like, where everything landed.

[00:12:02] Chuck: Oh, yeah, that makes sense.

[00:12:04] Robbie: Uh, get rebase or get merge?

[00:12:07] Jack: Uh, merge. I know it's not a popular opinion.

[00:12:11] Robbie: know it's been kind of 50 50 on the people we've asked. Okay. But yeah, I guess people that merge aren't as loud on Twitter maybe.

[00:12:19] Jack: Nice. Yeah,

[00:12:20] Robbie: Nice. yeah,

[00:12:20] Jack: yeah. I mean, I think the people that rebase are the people that really get into Get and really understand the ref logs and all that sort of stuff. I'm like, I'm one of those people that like, if my GI repo gets just really hairy and I'm like, X number of visions ahead and this and that and the other thing, and I can't seem to rebase at all. I just basically just create a new directory, copy all this, all it

[00:12:40] Robbie: Yeah, yeah. whatever. Yeah. You can say shit. Yeah, What, What

[00:12:43] Jack: the, delta here?

[00:12:43] Robbie: Let's go Yeah. Yeah. Makes sense.

[00:12:45] Chuck: I got put through the ringers by, by seniors years ago

[00:12:49] Robbie: to

[00:12:50] Chuck: to really learn git, do the

[00:12:52] Jack: How long did that last?

[00:12:54] Chuck: uh, how long did I have to do

[00:12:56] Jack: No, did you really understand? Get, because I mean, if you don't like, really, I think you definitely really use it every day. It's like, okay, that, that knowledge loses. It's,

[00:13:03] Robbie: Oh, yeah,

[00:13:04] Chuck: yeah. No, and I, I could think, yeah, that's true. Uh, I think I just got into a habit and now it's just patterns, you know, I don't have to overthink it anymore. it probably took, you know, a couple of months to really like deep dive and do the right thing and, that was like back in the day where mentors weren't necessarily like pairing with you and leaning you down. They're like, go read the fucking manual and come back and do this right. Rejected, you know, you

[00:13:25] Jack: Yeah, I'm actually, I'm okay with that.

[00:13:27] Chuck: Yeah,

[00:13:28] Jack: mean, it's funny. I, I, um, I was giving a talk at OSU, so Oregon State. And there on the sign, there's a sign on the wall that said, uh, If you get stuck, don't immediately, immediately go find somebody and get, you know, get your, get help immediately. And I'm like, that's not great. Because you don't give your site. We are problem solvers. Like that's what we do. We constantly run into, you know, it's like the Martian. Like he says, like when he gets back, he's like, what we do is we solve enough problems and eventually you get home kind of thing. And so what we do is we solve problems. And if you give somebody else your problem to solve, they're becoming a better engineer while you are not,

[00:14:04] Chuck: I would agree with

[00:14:04] Jack: yeah, so give yourself like 10 to 15 minutes, try and figure it out. If that doesn't work, hit up ChatGBT, you know, and if that doesn't work, then. You know, go to the appropriate, try and find the appropriate

[00:14:15] Chuck: I do think that that's

[00:14:16] Jack: and then read the rules and then, and then post,

[00:14:19] Chuck: So

[00:14:19] Robbie: I, I do it wrong. Like, I, I ask first, because I know it'll take a while to get an answer from people. So then I'm like, hey, help me. And then I, then I go try to figure it out, knowing that they'll help me if I need it

[00:14:30] Jack: say, Oh, I already figured it

[00:14:31] Robbie: Yeah, Yeah. Yeah, I love

[00:14:33] Jack: that.

[00:14:34] Robbie: Yeah.

[00:14:35] Chuck: detect a note of sarcasm there. No, I do think that like, that's a maturity in, in your career. In like, I don't know a lot of things, but I do have a lot of confidence in myself to be able to, like, find answers or find a path. And then if I need, like, nuance or to get, like, really zoned in and I find an expert and, like, that kind of thing, sure. But I think in general, like, that's kind of maturity. That maybe is the definition of senior in some ways. Of, like, you know, knowing how to, like, ask the right questions and go down the right paths to find

[00:15:05] Jack: Right. I mean, the definition, one of the definitions of senior to me is, can I put you on call? Right. And the person that is on call, they get up at 2 a. m. They have to have some semblance of like, not just calling everybody at

[00:15:17] Chuck: No.

[00:15:18] Jack: hey, you know, whatever. Like, actually try and get in there and figure out like, oh, the disk is full over here. You know, whatever.

[00:15:24] Chuck: So, serious question though. Okay. I mean, what do you think about, no, no, what do you think about milk?

[00:15:30] Jack: Oh lord. I like milk. mean, I, I, I'm a baker. So, and, and, and, you know, I love, like, heavy cream. I'm, I'm a fan. So, I don't know. I don't know what adam. dev is on about. And, you know, the primogen and all that. Like, I just sort of sidestepped that whole thing.

[00:15:46] Chuck: Right, right.

[00:15:47] Jack: don't, my Twitter game is terrible.

[00:15:50] Chuck: is Tinker. Yeah, uh, no, I'm not agreeing with you

[00:15:52] Jack: No, no, no,

[00:15:53] Robbie: no.

[00:15:53] Chuck: sure. I don't know. Uh, but I do that. I actually like to, like, kind of be a little more on the sidelines and taking it in. And then I'll, I'll drop some little nuggets here and there.

[00:16:02] Robbie: Yeah.

[00:16:03] Jack: Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I don't know really how to use it. Like a lot of folks use it as just like, Hey, this is what I'm doing today. You know, like, okay, I'm cooking ribs. You know, whatever, you know, like, oh, okay, I

[00:16:14] Chuck: you want to know, you know, uh, what, you know, what Jason's cooking? I mean, how else are you going

[00:16:19] Jack: Oh, right, yeah, sorry. No, haha, um, 124 proof. That's all I got to say.

[00:16:26] Chuck: right? Yeah, definitely.

[00:16:29] Jack: it's only been like two and a half ounces

[00:16:31] Chuck: Uh, listener, just so you know, uh, we do have a live audience Yes. Today for, for the show.

[00:16:37] Robbie: You will see, you will see them on subsequent episodes,

[00:16:39] Chuck: right? Yeah. You may see them later, also known as Yeah.

[00:16:44] Jack: do a bunch

[00:16:44] Chuck: a bunch of 'em. Right.

[00:16:45] Jack: That's a good idea, though. And it's a great place. I mean,

[00:16:48] Robbie: Oh yeah. Yeah. We love this place. Oh yeah.

[00:16:51] Chuck: big fan

[00:16:53] Jack: Big fan. Big fan of the massive library. Of, of scotches?

[00:16:57] Chuck: scotch

[00:16:58] Jack: Of whiskey? There's

[00:16:59] Robbie: There's a lot of scotch.

[00:17:00] Chuck: Brown juice. A lot of brown juice out there.

[00:17:02] Jack: a lot of scotches. A lot of breweries. again, complete novice on this. So there's whiskey and then scotch is a variet of whiskey

[00:17:11] Robbie: you take the E out of, uh, Whiskey. When it's scotch

[00:17:14] Chuck: So there's a, there's a saying in Kentucky and it's. all bourbon is whiskey, but not all whiskey is bourbon. Okay. There you go.

[00:17:21] Robbie: Okay.

[00:17:21] Jack: I know more now

[00:17:23] Robbie: that. I know more now. Yeah. Alright, I'm gonna skip this one. Uh, what is your least favorite programming language?

[00:17:29] Jack's least favorite programming language

[00:17:29] Jack: Oh, uh,

[00:17:30] Robbie: T C L. Okay. I don't even know what that

[00:17:31] Chuck: even know what that is. No.

[00:17:33] Jack: Yeah, I know. It's a terrible language. It, uh, yeah. Oh

[00:17:36] Chuck: Is it, worse than ColdFusion? Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[00:17:39] Jack: No. Okay. So, oh no, no, no, Lord. No. I mean, it is, is terrible. So It was paired with a thing called TK, so TCL slash TK. TK is this really nice kind of portable windowing system. They wrapped it in Perl and PHP and whatever, a whole bunch of stuff. Because it was nice, right? It was like cross platform widgets, had a nice like layout system, all that sort of stuff. But it also was natively sort of connected with this TCL language, which is absolutely abysmal, worst language I've ever seen. And if you wanted to return a value, From a function. What you'd do is you'd say upvar.

[00:18:16] Chuck: Okay.

[00:18:16] Jack: And then you'd give the name of the variable in the parent function that called you. And the value that was supposed to get set to.

[00:18:24] Chuck: Okay.

[00:18:25] Jack: That is, that is, that

[00:18:26] Chuck: Highly

[00:18:27] Jack: deeply atrocious. Because I mean, imagine like you change the variable name in a parent function. Just like, ah, we're factoring a little bit, whatever. And it's like, no, no, you actually have to like go change it in the function that you called.

[00:18:38] Chuck: that you

[00:18:39] Jack: Because that calling function is actually going to go and, like, just jump back up the stack and set your locals. That doesn't seem so good.

[00:18:46] Robbie: No.

[00:18:47] Jack: No, that's not good.

[00:18:48] Chuck: like a nightmare to debug. It

[00:18:49] Jack: is a nightmare,

[00:18:50] Robbie: yeah! Right,

[00:18:51] Jack: it's a nightmare of a language, so, no, that would be the worst thing. APL was a close second. Okay, so, again, probably guys probably don't know

[00:18:57] Robbie: Yeah. Yeah. Not, not familiar with

[00:18:59] Chuck: I'm not familiar with that. No.

[00:18:59] Robbie: no,

[00:19:00] Jack: no, okay. Yeah. Cool.

[00:19:02] Chuck: Alrighty. Uh, and this is almost a hot take, so.

[00:19:04] Robbie: this kind of hot take?

[00:19:05] Jack: language?

[00:19:06] Chuck: Mine's what?

[00:19:06] Jack: What's yours?

[00:19:07] Chuck: I hated ColdFusion.

[00:19:08] Jack: Oh, yeah,

[00:19:09] Chuck: to do that for a while. That was, like, really bad. And then, uh, trying to do internationalization in ColdFusion was a lot of repeat yourself. Not that fun.

[00:19:16] Jack: think XML banks languages of any variety.

[00:19:19] Chuck: Yeah, right. I did not enjoy PHP very much, but I was also doing it in the Wild West world

[00:19:25] Jack: How do you like our seas?

[00:19:26] Chuck: um, Well, let me get to my next question here.

[00:19:30] Robbie: Um,

[00:19:31] Jack: Um,

[00:19:31] Chuck: oh yeah, PHP and like the wild west of, of WordPress, you know, 15, 20, whatever, 15

[00:19:36] Jack: A lot of people make a lot of money off that.

[00:19:38] Chuck: I know, and it still powers the internet. I mean, being

[00:19:40] Robbie: like half the internet.

[00:19:42] Jack: yeah, that and Wix. exactly.

[00:19:43] Chuck: So yeah, yeah.

[00:19:45] Chuck: so speaking of RSCs, uh, did RSCs, uh, turn React into PHP?

[00:19:52] Jack: No, not at all. I mean, it, it looks fairly similar, but when you actually think about what actually happened with pages router to app writer, like they just basically moved around and get service side props. I mean there is some like there's now suspenses and things like that that can make things a little bit weirder and you can have multiple components, maybe, you know, streaming simultaneously, but yeah, no, it's not PHP. I mean, I actually did a kind of rough comparison between the two and,

[00:20:20] Chuck: I

[00:20:21] Jack: I mean, P H P is faster

[00:20:23] Robbie: Yeah,

[00:20:24] Chuck: So then that begs

[00:20:25] Robbie: it's so much better. Isn't

[00:20:27] Chuck: beg the question of what's the point of this shit, then?

[00:20:30] Jack: Uh, yeah. It's a question that a lot of people are asking actually. Yeah. I mean, I think H T M X is something that, that people are looking at. Like, why are we right? I mean, there's, I actually was reading the, the HTM X book today. They actually have a, a full book on this now.

[00:20:43] Robbie: now.

[00:20:44] Chuck: oh yeah, I did see that actually. Yeah. Yeah. Did you buy

[00:20:46] Jack: I bought it, yeah. It, it was, the hard cover was

[00:20:49] Chuck: 55, 55 bucks. I was like, huh.

[00:20:51] Jack: but the Kindle was 9.99,

[00:20:53] Chuck: so. Oh, okay. Yeah. There we go. Right.

[00:20:56] Jack: there, yeah. One of the things I excited was JS fatigue, and I definitely feel that like it's, it's

[00:21:00] Robbie: it's

[00:21:01] Jack: really complex, you know? And, uh, I think like there's some alternatives in that space. There's Deno Fresh, which is. A little easier. Uh, there's quick, which I, I think is

[00:21:14] Chuck: like that, because of the W, you know? I like to go QUICK, QUICK

[00:21:18] Jack: Okay, sure. I

[00:21:20] Chuck: think that's how they intended it.

[00:21:22] Jack: Um, if it's quick,

[00:21:26] Chuck: Just that I got you to say that.

[00:21:27] Robbie: feel like I

[00:21:27] Chuck: like I've

[00:21:27] Robbie: yeah, Okay. okay.

[00:21:29] Chuck: Uh,

[00:21:30] Jack: that is I mean, I suppose trying to be kind of more simplistic and get out of that cycle. but yeah, I mean, I think it is kind of a little bit too complicated, like, I mean, like, I just said, Oh, wow, this is great. This kind of CSS thing, but when you step back and look at it, you're like, Whoa, we got this JS. It's turning into CSS. And then it's going and getting pre compiled during the build. They're like, well, it's a lot of that. This is a lot of a lot of complexity.

[00:21:57] Robbie: you used to be able to just write HTML and JavaScript and CSS in files and load them.

[00:22:04] Chuck: Yeah, exactly. Right.

[00:22:05] Jack: know, what's my deploy process? Like untar,

[00:22:08] Robbie: Yeah.

[00:22:08] Jack: you know,

[00:22:09] Chuck: Yeah. Change the

[00:22:10] Jack: symbolic link on the directory. Boom,

[00:22:12] Robbie: Much too easy. We need more tools. And that's

[00:22:14] Chuck: Well, and that's it. I think we've all become like, so emotionally attached to our tools in a way, right? Like I'm an expert at this. If all of a sudden my tool is, isn't necessary, or if I at least have to ask the question, then you start to become a little defensive or whatever else, like, because I've gone down this path so far. And if I let go of

[00:22:33] Jack: Because I don't feel that way at

[00:22:34] Chuck: No, no. I think, oh, well,

[00:22:36] Robbie: The collective, the collective we. Yeah,

[00:22:37] Chuck: do. Yeah. No, I collectively,

[00:22:38] Robbie: think

[00:22:39] Chuck: I think it was a more of a collective

[00:22:41] Jack: think it's a phase of, of, of engineering development. like, the computer's kicking your butt. You're like, oh man, like, it's, I'm never doing anything I like, you know. I'm getting these bugs, they're terrible, blah, blah, blah. And then you finally conquer it. You, you learn some system that works for you and you feel really good and everything's going fine. And then somebody's like, well, that sucks. We should do this. And you're like, no, I don't want to do that because I, because the computer is finally not kicking my butt,

[00:23:05] Chuck: Yeah, exactly. Why start

[00:23:07] Jack: a while you, well, yeah, unless the entire industry moves on and then you're like, okay,

[00:23:11] Chuck: oh, I'm irrelevant now I'm writing cold fusion. You know?

[00:23:13] Jack: Well, actually, if you're in Europe, Goldfusion is actually still pretty good.

[00:23:18] Chuck: My cold fusion, no, I don't think you ever read, read any of mine, but,

[00:23:21] Robbie: Oh, no, no, no.

[00:23:22] Jack: saying like as a, as a technology, like they, like it's good over there.

[00:23:26] Robbie: Yeah,

[00:23:26] Chuck: okay fair enough

[00:23:27] Jack: Yeah. Larval. P h P.

[00:23:29] Chuck: Yeah, I hear great things about Laravel

[00:23:32] Jack: don't, is it larval?

[00:23:33] Chuck: I don't know I think if you're in Louisville you say larval Yeah, but uh, yeah, I've heard great things the tools have improved I think yeah, I mean if it ain't broke don't try and fix it to a degree if you're if you're Things are working with the tools that continue to innovate and there are, they're very smart tools. I mean, there's certainly nothing wrong with that. They're well thought out and everything else, but is it necessary? I think like asking the question of to put up your marketing site, is it necessary? That's why I like things like Astro and, uh, because it's like it's take HTML was pretty good. So let's like start at the simplest terms and then build up as we

[00:24:08] Jack: And I think Astro is trying to do that, but still be in that node world

[00:24:12] Robbie: Where,

[00:24:13] Jack: Like your htmxs are saying, well, use rust or use go or use php and then you add a few of these little declarative tags on there or attributes and you have a little 34k package of javascript to basically just, you know, you can do 90% of what you can do in a react app and the question is, do you need it?

[00:24:32] Chuck: Yeah, is it good enough, you know? Yeah,

[00:24:34] Jack: it might be good enough. Yeah.

[00:24:35] Chuck: it's a reasonable

[00:24:36] Robbie: Yeah, it depends. is always the

[00:24:38] Chuck: I love it

[00:24:39] Robbie: yeah,

[00:24:40] Jack: yeah, yeah. Yeah, but if you are scared of that change, then that looks like, Oh, I'm going to lose all my, you know, I spent so many years learning use effect.

[00:24:48] Chuck: Yeah, oh gosh.

[00:24:50] Robbie: See, I never started learning

[00:24:51] Chuck: which is, bad, or it's just used wrong, or I don't know. There's a lot of different things there.

[00:24:56] Jack: misunderstood because I think a lot of folks Went from like class components, you know, which had a very clean life cycle

[00:25:04] Chuck: Yeah, lifecycle methods made sense,

[00:25:06] Jack: will

[00:25:07] Chuck: were

[00:25:07] Robbie: it. Just said what it did.

[00:25:08] Chuck: Yeah, Exactly.

[00:25:09] Jack: Exactly. And then they're like, Oh, well you can use functions and render. Yeah. Okay. But cool. And then we got into functions and it was kind of like leading you a little bit. Cause I'm like, Oh, well now can function couldn't have state, but now they can cause they got these hooks. Right. And if you had this dot state where you use use state and if you had a component that did mount. Well use, use effect. Well, that's actually the wrong way of thinking about it. Like it's actually like an entire reactive state management system. It's way more powerful than this state, except that like, people don't look at it that way. Like, you know, because there's a dependency arrays and everything else, and yeah. So you gotta get your head into that space and then you can actually do it.

[00:25:48] Robbie: it's still

[00:25:49] Jack: still a pain in the ass.

[00:25:50] Robbie: the ass. I

[00:25:51] Chuck: blame Thunk and Sagos for putting us down this path. For those, those jerks.

[00:25:55] Jack: What the heck is that?

[00:25:56] Chuck: was that? I

[00:25:57] Jack: don't know. Sagas, I don't even get me started, but, but thunks, like, I mean, I, I, if you ever do any, I didn't even win 32 programming.

[00:26:04] Chuck: Uh, no, I did not.

[00:26:05] Jack: I did not. Oh, okay. So, win 32 had this thunking layer to get to, or win 16 had a thunking layer to get to win 32. And then, you know, so I'm, I did that for a bunch of years and I came back and, you know, then Redux turns around and they're like, now we're doing thunking again. I'm like, are you kidding

[00:26:19] Chuck: were like, I can't escape you!

[00:26:21] Jack: Like, what, what are we doing

[00:26:23] Chuck: Yeah, I, I think just people, really smart people are like, they're solving crazy problems over here and they take those mental models and those paradigms and they're applying it up, up, upstream. Right. You know?

[00:26:34] Jack: I mean, I think Elm was the original progenitor of Redux and it looks really good actually. If you, if you do the Redux stuff in Elm, looks, looks really great. But if you look, if you do it in React, it looks like a lot of, lot of

[00:26:47] Chuck: Because it was never intended to be there, right? Like, the other thing,

[00:26:50] Jack: right. And then, I mean, I think.

[00:26:51] Chuck: rendering layer, you know?

[00:26:53] Jack: Yeah. And if you, you got a state management system in JavaScript, an inherently asynchronous system. Single threaded, but asynchronous. Right. We do everything we do as asynchronous click buttons, make fetches. It's all asynchronous. You create a state manager that doesn't have any default asynchronous behavior built into it. Mm-hmm.

[00:27:07] Robbie: like, what's that? That's craziness. You

[00:27:09] Jack: Like you have to bring in an extra library to make it asynchronous. Like of course. Like, duh.

[00:27:14] Robbie: Well, that's kind of been the React way, is bring another library. Oh, yeah.

[00:27:17] Chuck: Well, you've got six or seven different options for that, so you better, like, choose your own adventure the whole way, and then hopefully it's not the ugliest LEGO wall in the end. I

[00:27:25] Robbie: know. Yeah.

[00:27:26] Chuck: Yeah.

[00:27:26] Robbie: I mean, I don't know much about React, so that's kind of all I got there. Yeah, I'm, I'm still an Ember user, so.

[00:27:31] Jack: Oh, right. The hamster. Yep.

[00:27:33] Robbie: Yep. Well,

[00:27:34] Chuck: There you go. Well, I mean, he probably could have come around during class components time. He would've been like, oh, well, this isn't so

[00:27:41] Robbie: I liked it okay during

[00:27:43] Chuck: once Hooks came in and he was like, oh, dog shit. .

[00:27:45] Robbie: Yes. Oh,

[00:27:46] Jack: like, Oh, you and a lot of other folks.

[00:27:49] Robbie: Yeah.

[00:27:50] Chuck: I certainly struggled with it for a bit. I was just like, why are we doing this? I

[00:27:52] Jack: Did you ever like, did he get that mental shift though of going into like

[00:27:55] Chuck: did get there. You get, yeah, you got into, I mean, I think. I went through a lot of those crazy paths where you were, you know, picking different state management things and routers and all of that kind of

[00:28:06] Jack: And read

[00:28:06] Chuck: And once Next. js came in and came to prevalence, it was like, well, I've got guardrails now. At least I can make sense of this. Like there are, I thought so, I mean, to me, and I like the, the pages router.

[00:28:18] Jack: yeah, yeah,

[00:28:18] Chuck: app router bullshit now. What? I love this. This is one of the reasons why I said this is okay for me. And now you're like, taking them away,

[00:28:26] Robbie: so...

[00:28:27] Chuck: I don't know. I'm gonna play with other toys.

[00:28:29] Jack: Yeah, think Tanner Lindsley mentioned that this might have been there might have been the angular to moment of react. And I think that's Hmm. Potentially fair in that, if you have to throw away your design system and you've got to throw away your state manager and you got to like basically rewrite All your code. Like, I mean, that, that's, that's a heavy lift.

[00:28:51] Robbie: That's

[00:28:51] Chuck: gamble really, but I must be advantageous for them in some way monetarily. I was like

[00:28:56] Jack: who,

[00:28:57] Robbie: uh, for Vercel.

[00:28:58] Jack: Oh,

[00:28:58] Chuck: like make these big architectural changes or whatever who I don't Guillermo. I guess does he make some decisions there?

[00:29:04] Robbie: Uh, I think so. so

[00:29:07] Chuck: I think, like, maybe this is, I mean, things were working really well, lots of people pay money for Vercel but also there's a lot of people like reverse engineering so they can get the secret sauce outside of the Vercel

[00:29:19] Jack: Yes.

[00:29:19] Chuck: and so maybe that, you know, and maybe it, I'm speculating, but maybe that's some of the reasons why they're like iterating and changing the way things go because they need to maintain a level of secret sauce because they took a bunch of money, they have a huge valuation, they need to keep people on their platform and not Circumventing that, right? I don't know.

[00:29:38] Robbie: Yeah, I think that's valid. It's like anytime a device changes sizes or different ports and you have to buy new cords. Like, Keep them guessing. Yeah.

[00:29:47] Chuck: them a new cover. Yeah, yeah.

[00:29:48] Robbie: have to do new jailbreaks for everything. Like, yeah.

[00:29:50] Chuck: Do people still do that? Jailbreak their

[00:29:52] Robbie: I don't. I used to.

[00:29:54] Jack: Yeah, yeah. Back in the day when you couldn't actually put apps on it. Sure.

[00:29:57] Robbie: Yeah. . Yeah. Yeah.

[00:29:59] Chuck: Yeah, I was gonna say like I, that's the whole point of Apple, right? Is that you stay in the ecosystem and so Yeah, and it just works all the time.

[00:30:05] Robbie: but how can I play Game Boy games on it if I

[00:30:08] Chuck: right by Game Boy

[00:30:10] Jack: or Nintendo like actually puts out the game on

[00:30:13] Robbie: Well, yeah, that, yeah, I'd pay for that. Yeah.

[00:30:15] Chuck: Yeah. There we go. Yeah, and they do some things. Anyway.

[00:30:18] Robbie: Yeah. Mario, they do

[00:30:19] Jack: Kart, isn't Mario Kart on iOS?

[00:30:21] Robbie: Oh, they do it. They do have something. Mario, I think I remember seeing that

[00:30:24] Jack: racing game of some variety.

[00:30:25] Robbie: I don't know. Yeah.

[00:30:27] Chuck: so, uh, I think along these similar lines of just talking about, you know. Pontificating on the, the direction of the web and all those things. Yes. The promise of, web components and like wasm web assembly,

[00:30:37] Jack: and like WebAssembly.

[00:30:38] Jack: Is

[00:30:38] Chuck: really gonna, like, when is that gonna come to

[00:30:40] Jack: I think is for real, like

[00:30:42] Chuck: But it's been for real, I feel like for five years, give or take. Yeah. Oh yeah. They're coming. They're coming. And here are some libraries that are gonna like

[00:30:50] Jack: inside of a Wasm container on, you know, and actually Run Next faster inside your browser than on, because you're using a mem cache, essentially, for the file system, than you can on your disk. It's crazy. Yeah.

[00:31:06] Chuck: crazy. But again, when is it going to come to fruition?

[00:31:09] Jack: is it gonna come to me. Sure. Mass adoption. Mass adoption, that's to

[00:31:11] Chuck: y to me.

[00:31:13] Robbie: Like Mass adoption. I guess.

[00:31:14] Chuck: adoption, that's to me, would be. Like, we're still talking about React server components and, uh, How, uh, and, and router component. Everything's a fucking component. But actually, like, you know, component components, because they're nested, and I don't know. Anyway, so, instead, blow away all those paradigms and actually, like, think about how we make the web moving forward.

[00:31:33] Jack: a good question. I mean, I, I think the argument that the, like the H M X folks are making is the way forward is to go essentially back to the way we were basically, and kind of actually use the browser as the platform, as is intended. part of what they're trying to do with React is make up for variances in the browsers and the browsers not being as performant as we would have liked and all that kind of VDOM and all that sort of stuff. But now the browsers rock, you know, and you can do all this amazing stuff like view transitions. They are very powerful and we don't really use them as much as we could because we're sitting on top of this abstraction layer that's on top of the browser and the browser is its own abstraction layer and all sort of nested dolls sort of thing. Uh, why don't we just use more of the browser?

[00:32:19] Robbie: Yeah, we should. There's a lot of stuff that people don't leverage that exists.

[00:32:24] Jack: I mean, there's a whole, form validation system.

[00:32:27] Chuck: Baked

[00:32:28] Jack: in the browser. Nobody uses it.

[00:32:30] Robbie: But it doesn't look the way the designer wanted you to do it. Yeah, Right. I didn't say

[00:32:34] Jack: think it can look any way you want it, but

[00:32:35] Robbie: Well, true, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think that's like, we've spent so much time rebuilding stuff just because. It doesn't look exactly the way we want it. And I've been arguing about this at work, of like, we should use native date pickers. I don't care how you want it to look, let's use a native one. Because it just works everywhere. Like, oh, you don't, you don't believe in

[00:32:53] Chuck: Oh no, I do believe in that, heavily actually.

[00:32:55] Jack: Yeah, yeah,

[00:32:56] Chuck: about, about some nightmares throughout my career that I've had in making these, you know, uh... Trade-offs for visual subjectivity. Mm-hmm. , like, you know, the big one has been like, uh, dropdowns, like how, how long, how many billions of different ways have we had to over-engineer dropdowns? Because the, the design and, you know, ui, ux teams are like, Hmm, we don't want it to look

[00:33:20] Jack: It should be slightly more mov. Yeah,

[00:33:22] Chuck: Yeah. Oh, you need a little more that

[00:33:24] Jack: is mov, right. I mean, yeah, slightly more mov and now we've got like, there's a whole proposal on dropdowns actually. Like they actually, you can create a Skinnable dropdown natively in the browser, which is, and they've got like cool circular dropdowns and all that. It's amazing stuff.

[00:33:40] Chuck: Yeah, yeah. Popover API, that's a cool

[00:33:42] Jack: But of course, if you sit on top of the abstraction layer, you don't get any of that,

[00:33:45] Chuck: Right,

[00:33:46] Robbie: abstraction layer. You

[00:33:47] Chuck: So, like, trust the browser to do good stuff. Right. Yeah, I mean, I'm just happy we have evergreen browsers. No more time with Internet Explorer.

[00:33:56] Robbie: Oh,

[00:33:56] Jack: to browsers. Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, there's there's edge,

[00:33:59] Chuck: Yes.

[00:34:00] Robbie: Which is actually not bad.

[00:34:01] Chuck: Yeah, Microsoft's taking over the world.

[00:34:03] Robbie: over the world. They are, yeah.

[00:34:04] Jack: apparently Apple

[00:34:05] Chuck: They just buy all of our tools and make it work. Apparently Apple might buy

[00:34:08] Jack: you know, whatever.

[00:34:10] Robbie: yeah. Huh. Yeah.

[00:34:11] Jack: It's an odd

[00:34:12] Chuck: Well, there's a, yeah, well, I mean... Gosh, that's so funny. Well, I used to work for National Geographic and so that's like a hell of a ride for them to come around full circle.

[00:34:21] Jack: Wait, is National Geographic Disney or

[00:34:23] Robbie: They are Yeah. Yeah.

[00:34:24] Chuck: now, so so National Geographic has this tie with Apple to like where they're always a part of their major product launches So like we used to pseudo get to know a few things Yeah about like so like some of the first apps to release for the iPhone originally was National Geographic and they they partnered with us on a few different things and then National Geographic got Blown up, all the for profit. So it used to be a not for profit, so you had the society doing all the adventure stuff. And then you had like the magazine, the channel, and like media things that were allowed to be for profit and then feed into the non profit. But basically, the magazine was profitable, but not that great. And then the channel made all the money. And the channel was partially owned by Fox, so then Fox wanted everything. So 21st Century Fox got National Geographic Partners, and then the society broke off and they were just like... Good in perpetuity though, because they were like losing money and they didn't know if they were going to be a business. And then a few years later, Disney bought National Geographic. , so that was like part of some deal with, Murdoch's.

[00:35:25] Jack: Nice. I gotta say, well, if you ever get a chance, National Geographic actually has like a, kind of a tour thing where they have speakers go around and actually right over here at one of our Arlene Schnitzer Hall. My wife and daughter and I would go every month to go see a different speaker. They were fascinating.

[00:35:42] Chuck: they are. Explorers are super

[00:35:43] Jack: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:35:45] Chuck: I used to live in DC and I worked there for a while, so yeah. You know, I'd head down and see all kinds of different explorers speak and

[00:35:52] Jack: Yeah. Just amazingly cool people.

[00:35:54] Chuck: Yeah, definitely.

[00:35:55] Jack: Rocked up into Antarctica for you

[00:35:57] Chuck: yeah, no big deal.

[00:35:58] Jack: you know, whatever.

[00:35:59] Chuck: N B D, it was just hanging out with some penguins.

[00:36:01] Jack: is freezing all the time. All right, brutality. Okay.

[00:36:03] Chuck: Yeah.

[00:36:04] Robbie: So I think the real reason we're here is we want to hear about the things people have been saying on Nextdoor. Oh! Ha ha ha!

[00:36:14] Jack: It gets weirder and weirder every

[00:36:15] Robbie: every time.

[00:36:16] Jack: some Lady she says, somebody abducted my cat and, and shaved it,

[00:36:23] Robbie: it. shaved

[00:36:23] Jack: just his belly. And you're like, um, Okay. All right.

[00:36:28] Chuck: that's it. End of story. It's

[00:36:29] Jack: to actually document the shaved cat belly on, on next door and they kind of conspiracy theory eyes. Why this might have happened and stuff like, Oh, really,

[00:36:39] Robbie: Oh

[00:36:40] Jack: is, this is, this is important news to me, you know, like, yeah. So

[00:36:43] Chuck: you stick around for it.

[00:36:45] Jack: Well, I mean, I stick around because, my daughter's out of the house. So we're starting to get,

[00:36:48] Chuck: know.

[00:36:49] Jack: change things up, you know, if you got to get rid of a carpet or whatever, it's like, You know, you don't want to necessarily take it to the dump. It's a nice carpet, so. You know, give it for free on, on Nextdoor. But that's basically the only reason I'm showing up there. Otherwise, it's like, it is party town

[00:37:01] Chuck: Yeah, it is an interesting... And who would want to get,

[00:37:03] Jack: like, party, kind of,

[00:37:05] Robbie: Yeah,

[00:37:06] Chuck: party. Yeah, it's where people, like, everybody used to argue and Facebook went to Nextdoor to argue about politics and I don't know, whatever thing. There's

[00:37:13] Jack: to

[00:37:13] Chuck: of that. Yeah, but then they know each other because they're neighbors. Right. So it's even weirder.

[00:37:17] Jack: amazing how the knives come out between neighbors. Yeah.

[00:37:20] Robbie: Yeah, they'll be like, the guy in the gray Mazda with the license plate, whatever, and like, got too close to me at the stop sign. and like,

[00:37:28] Jack: cut me up in,

[00:37:29] Robbie: yeah, and it's like, alright, yeah.

[00:37:31] Jack: Yeah. Yeah. So it sounds like you guys are on. Yeah.

[00:37:35] Robbie: Oh yeah. Yeah,

[00:37:35] Chuck: Yeah, I go look at the crazies every once in a while. Sure. You know,

[00:37:39] Robbie: pump

[00:37:39] Jack: poke the cage.

[00:37:39] Chuck: yeah, exactly. I remember when we first moved back to Phoenix and I got on it and it was like, Oh, I can get to know some of my neighbors. And, , I think it was useful for about two months and then I don't know what, Oh, I think pandemic happened. And then people leaned in hard and it was like,

[00:37:55] Jack: Yeah. Pandemic was okay. So I'm a moron.

[00:37:58] Robbie: So

[00:37:59] Jack: I, my wife goes out of town and she's like, Hey, you should go to the HOA meeting, you know? Cause that was when she was out of town. I'm like, sure. Okay. Whatever. So I go to the HOA meeting. I'm, I'm bored. Whatever. I listened to this and then yelling and they're like, Hey, we need a new person on the HOA. And if one of you doesn't sign up, we're going to.

[00:38:16] Robbie: And told you.

[00:38:18] Jack: So, you know, I, I, and then, well, yeah, and they're like, Oh, it's only, you know, a couple, like an hour a month. I would go, yeah, okay, sure. And so I actually, I sign up, eventually I'm like, during the pandemic, I was the HOA president. And man, people went nuts, because they're all, they're in their houses, right, all the time, and they want to upgrade their houses and all that. And, you know, you tell them, Hey, you know, you can't have, like, foot high fence just surrounding your

[00:38:48] Chuck: house.

[00:38:48] Robbie: Like, it's

[00:38:49] Jack: Like, that's not, that's not okay. Like, it's not okay by us, but it's not okay for the county, probably the state. And they're like, no, no, we're going to sue you. It's like, you can't even, no, you can't even sue me. Like, it's

[00:38:59] Robbie: into

[00:39:00] Chuck: Right,

[00:39:00] Jack: Right, exactly, yeah,

[00:39:01] Chuck: is wrong with

[00:39:02] Jack: what do you, yeah. And then, of course, it was nice to get out of it, but it's amazing how much people like are really angry about their HOAs and it's like, you know, this

[00:39:09] Chuck: I've never

[00:39:10] Jack: just your neighbors.

[00:39:11] Chuck: Yeah, I've never heard any stories where people are like, I

[00:39:14] Jack: wow, I love

[00:39:15] Robbie: Yeah,

[00:39:15] Chuck: A a They keep every house the same three shades of brown and uh, it's just, it's wonderful.

[00:39:21] Jack: tell you, like before the pandemic,

[00:39:24] Robbie: I

[00:39:25] Jack: remember anybody having a run in with the h O A. It was like, you know, just like, Hey, do you wanna paint your house? Blah, blah, blah. Yeah, sure. Whatever. You know, it was not a big deal. People were just cool. And then

[00:39:34] Chuck: They had to lean in because they were bored. Going a little stir crazy

[00:39:37] Robbie: and nothing else to do,

[00:39:38] Pizza making tips

[00:39:38] Chuck: do you have any pizza making tips and tricks?

[00:39:42] Jack: Oh wow. Uh,

[00:39:44] Chuck: I have an uni. Oh, really? So I've done some... Okay. Yeah.

[00:39:47] Jack: Yeah. Long dough rise, you know, like get the, get the flavor going, you know? So like, prep the dough like a day ahead. That's real handy. I actually learned this on Twitter. A guy piped up and said, uh, He worked at a pizza joint and it looked like your cheese is a little toasted. So, you know, you want to, like, use a combination of mozzarella and Gouda and eat them. so we did that the first time. And then my wife went over to a cheese monger a couple of days ago and she's like, well, can I get Gouda and eat them? And he's like, well, they're the same thing. So like, okay, but yeah, so no, you got to get a good cheese blend that that's handy. oh, and then when it comes to uni, they have a really nice, like, cast iron little skillet

[00:40:29] Chuck: Oh yeah, yeah, I don't have it.

[00:40:31] Jack: Oh, cool. So what you can do is you can, like, put onions on there, like, when it's heating up, right? Because they've got to get the stone hot and all that. So when it's heating up, you can put that in and you, like, grill your onions ahead of time, grill your sausage. It's

[00:40:43] Chuck: Yeah. That does sound like a good pro

[00:40:44] Jack: Oh, yeah, yeah,

[00:40:45] Chuck: be into that. Yeah, I do a lot of like, well, I tried for a while in the pandemic like everybody else to like make your own bread and pizza dough and whatever else failed miserably, but a local pizzeria that we really like, you know, they were trying to keep going like

[00:41:01] Jack: right, so they'll sell you a dough

[00:41:02] Chuck: they sell you a dough balls like 3 and it's awesome. and then when it's tomato season, I make my own sauce. I can do all the other things. but,

[00:41:10] Robbie: yeah, No dough. Do

[00:41:11] Jack: you get the whole like, dun, dun, you know, flipping the dough thing and all

[00:41:15] Chuck: Oh, yeah, some of that to, like, stretch it out. Yeah, it was alright there, it's just the making of the dough. All things, including flour, seem to hate me and my hands. I don't know what it is, yeah.

[00:41:25] Jack: Which kind of flour do you use?

[00:41:26] Chuck: Uh, there is a local place actually that would do, like, a pizza flour. So I was trying to, like, embrace the local, yeah. No, I didn't get, like, the stuff from Naples or whatever, like some fancy places do,

[00:41:38] Jack: I That's stuff from Naples that like, like my local Safeway.

[00:41:41] Chuck: or something? Uh, well, you get the, like, the DAO certification and all

[00:41:44] Jack: that stuff. Oh no. Whoa,

[00:41:46] Chuck: and the right dough and all that kind of shit, yeah. Okay,

[00:41:49] Jack: No, I didn't go that hot. Uh, I mean, but there is like double O flour at like, you know, little bags and yeah, that can be really good too.

[00:41:56] Chuck: Alright, well, I'll keep practicing and I'll let you

[00:41:57] Jack: okay? Yeah. What kind of uni do you have?

[00:42:00] Chuck: Uh, the one that you can do both, with propane or

[00:42:04] Jack: Oh, cool. So the same one I do, like the cruise

[00:42:06] Chuck: Yeah, that sounds right. Yeah. Yeah. So, it's good. I love it.

[00:42:09] Jack: like, like the, there was definitely like a thing where it's like, there was the low end of it and then the high end of it. And I've always learned that, like, you want to buy into the low end of the high end as opposed to the high end of the low end. Right. And so that was, that seemed like the low end of the high

[00:42:25] Chuck: Yeah, well my wife got it for me for Father's Day or something, I don't know and so it was kind of a surprise but It's kind of yeah, yeah worked out. She's all right

[00:42:33] Jack: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:42:34] Robbie: yeah,

[00:42:34] Chuck: listens and my kids listen sometimes too. So so you can hear daddy's voice on the in the car So it makes me seem cool. Actually, they think I am cool because we just started putting YouTube videos up So the fact that I can go to the TV and search for us and they can see me on the TV They're like minds are blown

[00:42:50] Jack: I'm actually scared to do that.

[00:42:52] Chuck: eh, well, yeah, I don't know. It worked for me. They think I'm cool. No, they're four and almost seven,

[00:42:58] Jack: weird to like, see me

[00:42:59] Chuck: I seek their approval. It's, you know. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:43:02] Robbie: Don't, my son doesn't watch any TV 'cause he is young 16 months old, Oh, wow. So start Congratulations.

[00:43:07] Chuck: start him. Yeah

[00:43:08] Robbie: thanks. That's awesome. Yeah, no, we're actually, uh, on purpose like no TV until he is

[00:43:13] Jack: Oh

[00:43:14] Chuck: think that's fine. Yeah, no, that's

[00:43:16] Robbie: so he watched his first show, as a treat and that's, that was it. He got to watch Peppa Pig for 30 minutes. Yeah, yeah,

[00:43:25] Chuck: seen

[00:43:25] Jack: Is there a show now on that? Or what, what, what, how, it was a movie?

[00:43:29] Robbie: It's a show

[00:43:30] Chuck: a TV show

[00:43:31] Jack: I mean, I, I'm not, uh,

[00:43:32] Chuck: this British, they're like, in

[00:43:33] Jack: like, you kind of age out of these things. I don't generally watch, like, whatever,

[00:43:37] Chuck: Yeah. You

[00:43:37] Robbie: You don't watch Peppa Pig all the, time.

[00:43:39] Jack: my kids were like, my kid was like, Blue's Clues.

[00:43:42] Chuck: Oh, right. Yeah. Yeah. And they've seen that too. But yeah, this

[00:43:44] Robbie: probably more That's still around. Loose

[00:43:46] Chuck: British, so you

[00:43:46] Jack: around

[00:43:47] Robbie: still around. They've

[00:43:48] Chuck: changed the main guy. It's like a

[00:43:50] Jack: oh. Yeah. No, that dude like aged out,

[00:43:52] Chuck: right, right. Whatever his name was. I forget. Steve. Steve, yes. Steve

[00:43:55] Jack: Steve,

[00:43:56] Chuck: Steve's

[00:43:56] Robbie: go to see the

[00:43:57] Chuck: Yes. There we go. See the, the, the hive Mind we get there. Yeah.

[00:44:01] Jack: baby Einstein. Is that still a thing?

[00:44:03] Chuck: Uh, I think so.

[00:44:04] Robbie: telephone? Yeah, that'd be

[00:44:05] Jack: trippy

[00:44:06] Chuck: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You'd like. take some acid. Watch that. Yeah. Listen, I don't do that. Listener

[00:44:11] Robbie: But you could.

[00:44:12] Chuck: Yeah, but you could maybe later

[00:44:14] Jack: In Portland, mushrooms are legal.

[00:44:16] Chuck: Oh yeah. Semi kind of legal. What? Like

[00:44:18] Robbie: legal. I thought everything

[00:44:19] Chuck: I was just like, can you go buy that in the store? Like now?

[00:44:22] Jack: was a store where you could go buy that. That store is no

[00:44:25] Chuck: Oh, I see. Well, you know,

[00:44:26] Jack: if you've got a friend who, you know, can make, make some mushrooms, you're good to

[00:44:30] Chuck: Okay, well we'll be over at your house later.

[00:44:31] Robbie: Um,

[00:44:33] Chuck: I don't make them. You don't make

[00:44:35] Robbie: Yeah, we'll talk about it on next door later. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:44:37] Jack: go. Exactly. Yes, exactly.

[00:44:39] Chuck: need a bag of these mushrooms? I know a guy. His name's Jack.

[00:44:43] Robbie: Yeah, so uh, if you weren't in tech, what career would you

[00:44:48] Jack: Oh, wow. Uh, I really enjoy woodworking. I know that's so cliche,

[00:44:54] Chuck: not the only carpenter here.

[00:44:55] Robbie: Yeah. Aha. Do doom.

[00:44:57] Jack: Da

[00:44:58] Robbie: Da

[00:44:58] Chuck: Yeah, I'm a... It's so

[00:45:00] Jack: good to like, feel like a thing that you created that's tangible in the world. There's no other sensation like that. And yeah, so that, that would be really good. I, I, I always said, like, if I, I'm not classically trained in any of this but I, I volunteered on an FRC team, which is a robotics

[00:45:20] Chuck: team,

[00:45:21] Jack: And, uh, they have mechanical, so when you make a robot, right, you gotta, it's hardware, there's some wiring and all that. There's software, you gotta make it move. And then there is, uh, mechanical. And I really enjoy the mechanical part of it. Like, figuring out, like, how to make the trebuchet go and all that sort of thing. And so if I had it all to do over again, mechanical engineering, that kind of being able to make things work physically in the world, I think is really cool.

[00:45:48] Chuck: I agree, I think it's really neat and kind of impressive.

[00:45:51] Robbie: Yeah, I think anything where you can work with your hands and not look at a computer all day sounds very appealing to me.

[00:45:55] Jack: Yeah. But it, it, these skills... are underrated and come in very, very handy. Like I, I set up a studio in my house and as an example, like we're on these mics and these mics have particular pickup patterns and all that. But I use a shotgun mic in my videos. Shotgun mics have an issue where in indoors they pick up a lot of reflected noise and the smaller the room, the worse the problem. So you need to hang up these acoustic blankets. And so I actually designed like these full on hangers. And CNC them the whole thing to like drop these acoustic blankets from the ceiling. And so that when I want to record, I just kind of roll them down, and then go. And then when I want to, not record, I can roll them up and I have my office back. And it's really nice, and the only reason I could do that, I mean, you could never find those hangers like in the real world. Like, you have to design them. So it's nice to have those kind of skills to fall back on.

[00:46:50] Chuck: I agree. That's hilarious.

[00:46:52] Robbie: I just don't have the time to use any of those skills, but uh, It, yeah.

[00:46:56] Chuck: uh, You gotta

[00:46:56] Jack: There's definitely, there's two varietals of life. Like, I mean, you know, this, like as a woodworker, I was like, there's the folks that are like, we'll sit there with a chisel and just go all day, like, you know, doing the Japanese joinery thing. And then there's other folks who be like me, like power tool. It is, man. It's like, you know, I want to be in and out bang, bang, bang, you know? Yeah.

[00:47:13] Robbie: Um, yeah, I think that was about all we had there. Are there any things we missed or anything you want to plug before we end?

[00:47:21] Jack: I'm out of the channel. Honestly, like I still looking for subscriber.

[00:47:26] Robbie: looking for a

[00:47:27] Jack: Uh, you know, although it's doing very, very well and I'm really enjoying it. yeah, no, I mean, honestly, like just, yeah, just the channel.

[00:47:35] Robbie: I

[00:47:35] Chuck: Alright. Blue Collar Dev, right?

[00:47:37] Jack: Blue Collar Coder.

[00:47:38] Chuck: Blue Collar Coder, see? That's why you have to

[00:47:40] Jack: There you go. As opposed to BCD, I guess, you know, Blue Collar Dev. Yeah, there you go.

[00:47:46] Robbie: Everyone's confused now, but Right,

[00:47:47] Jack: right, right.

[00:47:48] Chuck: He corrected me. We'll make sure it's in the notes.

[00:47:50] Jack: first time somebody really questioned it was on Twitter. They were like, what the heck? Blue collar coder? What are you talking about? You know, yeah.

[00:47:57] Chuck: And then you were like, yeah. Yeah,

[00:47:59] Jack: I mean, it's, it's, the approach that I have to coding is like, very practical. It's like, I, I like building stuff for customers. And, uh, you know, so that's, that's the way I teach it.

[00:48:09] Chuck: that's awesome. Check it out, guys. Alright.

[00:48:12] Robbie: Alright, thanks everyone for listening. If you liked it, please subscribe, leave us some ratings and reviews. We appreciate it, and we will catch you next time.

[00:48:18] Chuck: Boom, boom, boom, boom.