Whiskey Web and Whatnot

A whiskey fueled fireside chat with your favorite web developers.


104: Hot Takes, Developer Relations, and AI with Rizel Scarlett

Show Notes

The tech industry is in the middle of an AI revolution, and some developers are wondering if their jobs are at stake. Rizel Scarlett, Developer Advocate at Github, is encouraging developers to embrace the technology instead of fearing it.

As a developer advocate, Rizel’s mission is to empower developers with the knowledge to navigate open source and make the most of GitHub’s tools - including Github’s AI pair programmer, Copilot. She sheds light on some of the features of Copilot that make it stand out among traditional code editors. She introduces Copilot for Docs, Voice, CLI, and Chat which are expected to elevate the coding experience, enhance coding efficiency, improve accessibility, and offer insights for developers of all skill levels. Rizel is a major AI advocate and she believes the technology will make coding more inclusive and user-friendly, allowing a wider range of individuals to participate actively in the developer community.

In this episode, Rizel talks to Chuck and Robbie about the importance of technical skills in advocacy roles, how AI is transforming coding, and using AI to foster inclusivity in tech.

Key Takeaways

  • [01:01] - Introduction to Rizel Scarlett.
  • [01:40] - A whiskey review: Minor Case Straight Rye Whiskey.
  • [08:07] - Tech hot takes.
  • [14:24] - Should developer advocate or developer relations be technical roles.
  • [26:21] - Open source projects Rizel is currently excited about.
  • [32:28] - Rizel delves into the various dimensions of GitHub Copilot.
  • [35:41] - What would Rizel do if she wasn’t in tech.
  • [45:11] - Rizel talks about buying a house and the moving process.


[15:24] - “I think particularly, it’s helpful if a developer advocate is willing to be technical or is already technical.” ~ Rizel Scarlett

[22:55] - “What people should start thinking about more is just having range on the team.” ~ Rizel Scarlett

[32:45] - “GitHub is going all in on the AI front.” ~ Rizel Scarlett


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[00:00:00] Robbie: What's going on, everybody? Welcome to Whiskey Web and Whatnot, your favorite podcast about whiskey, web, and whatnot, with your hosts, RobbieTheWagner and Charles William Carpenter the Third.

[00:00:14] Chuck: Let's get ready to rumble! I just made that up.

[00:00:20] Robbie: Yeah. I should stop waiting for you to say something, but then you'll just interrupt me again.

[00:00:27] Chuck: And then you'll be mad, and the whole thing's not fun. Anyway,

[00:00:30] Robbie: Anyway, yeah, our guest today is Rizel Scarlett. How's it going?

[00:00:34] Rizel: Hey, uh, thank you for having me. It's going pretty good. How's it going for y'all?

[00:00:39] Robbie: Good. Good.

[00:00:41] Chuck: Robbie's in his parents basement, so I guess it's not going good for him.

[00:00:44] Robbie: Well,

[00:00:45] Chuck: otherwise...

[00:00:47] Robbie: Hey, it could be worse

[00:00:49] Chuck: That's the life of an open source developer.

[00:00:53] Robbie: Yeah yeah, so uh Before we get going here. Do you want to give a few sentences about who you are and what you do?

[00:01:02] Rizel: Oh yeah, of course. Um, my name is Rizal Scarlett. Um, I'm a developer advocate at GitHub right now. And what I do is I help to empower developers so they can get a better understanding of How to navigate GitHub, how to navigate open source. A lot of people think we're just a tool that you put code samples on, or you collaborate with teams, but there's other things like Codespaces, and Copilot, and GitHub Actions that help to make the developer's workflow easier. And, uh, that's what I do.

[00:01:36] Robbie: Nice. Nice. all right, Chuck. Tell us about the whiskey. Oh

[00:01:42] Chuck: Uh, survey says, looks like today we have the Minor Case Straight Rye Whiskey. So we'll show it. There you go. It's backwards. Uh, so it has a sherry cask finish. It is 90 proof. Um, and all I could find out about the mash bill was, uh, Oh, no, I did find the mash bill. Uh, 51% rye, 45% corn, and 4% malted barley. So that's an interesting thing. Um, I couldn't find anything specific about the uh, uh, age. I believe it's supposed to be at least two years, uh, Aged, and whether it's sourced or not, no idea, but a hundred percent, um, American grains, which I guess is nice, I don't know, it's a marketing thing.

[00:02:25] Robbie: Yeah, do they ship grains in usually for? That seems inefficient.

[00:02:30] Chuck: I know, I know, but I think you can buy anything from China these days.

[00:02:35] Robbie: Well, that's true.

[00:02:37] Chuck: Glub, glub, glub, scotchy, scotch,

[00:02:39] Rizel: Have you, uh, How do y'all determine the taste? Cause I feel like I'm going to be like, it tastes like alcohol.

[00:02:48] Robbie: Yeah,

[00:02:48] Chuck: is an accurate, accurate descriptor sometimes. I mean, mostly we make it up. We reference things that make sense to us. But I mean, there's no real science for us for this. That is not to like talk down to actual professionals within, you know, alcohol, whiskey, whatever. Like, they know what they're saying. And it's a... I don't know. Maybe I just need to get, like, more well versed in that, uh, vernacular. But, otherwise, I just mostly make it up myself. Yeah.

[00:03:21] Robbie: To me, I'm smelling some, uh, cherry limeade on this one.

[00:03:26] Rizel: I

[00:03:26] Chuck: getting cherry. Yeah? I wish I was getting some cherry. I'm definitely getting a little, like, citrusy on there.

[00:03:34] Rizel: Oh, I smelled the sweet.

[00:03:36] Chuck: Alright. it's got a lot of corn, so it's probably gonna have, like a decent sweetness to it.

[00:03:41] Robbie: it's also for in sherry casks, so.

[00:03:44] Chuck: Mm hmm. Mm. Oh yeah, Ch Ch Ch Cherry Bomb. Does anybody remember that song? No.

[00:03:52] Rizel: No. Don't. What is that from?

[00:03:54] Chuck: Uh, so, there was an all girl band, like, uh, Joan Jett was in it, and Lita Ford, I think, or whatever, in the late 70s, and their big song was called Cherry Bomb. Um, but, yeah, I just thought pop culture wise, whatever. They did a movie with, um, I, I don't know, some younger Hollywood, uh, women in around 2015 or so, give or take. It was like, oh, The Runaways is the name of that group. Um, so they were like a bunch of teenage girls in the punk rock scene. And then, you've heard of Joan Jett though, right? The, I love rock and roll.

[00:04:30] Rizel: Oh,

[00:04:30] Chuck: in the root tube box maybe. Okay, there we

[00:04:32] Robbie: Yeah, I didn't know who that was.

[00:04:34] Chuck: it's getting

[00:04:35] Robbie: Yeah.

[00:04:35] Rizel: that's what this should be. It's to turn into a singing podcast.

[00:04:40] Chuck: we just lost half, half our subscribers. because of you. Uh, this has a very mild flavor to it though. But I

[00:04:48] Robbie: for a rye, it's not, not very spicy.

[00:04:50] Chuck: No, not at all. It actually has more of like a cherry cola flavor to me a little bit. Hmm. So easy to drink in that sense, but not much, not much burn. And really has kind of, It kind of fades away a little bit. Almost is like, a flat cherry Pepsi, you know? To me. Yeah, that's what I'm getting out of it. Alright, so, right? So there you go, you just make it up but, and then you're picking up when I'm dropping.

[00:05:21] Rizel: it's, it burns a little for me, but that can be because I'm not a whiskey

[00:05:26] Chuck: another 20 years of alcoholism and we'll just find it, you know, most of your taste buds are gone. Alrighty. So I'm not sure if you're familiar with our rating system. It's a highly technical, uh, tentacle system from one to eight. So, uh, one being terrible or zero. I think we allowed a zero last time. You know,

[00:05:46] Robbie: we'll allow a

[00:05:47] Chuck: would allow it. Yeah. We're, we're, we're zero based. And, uh, 8 being amazing, I want this all the time, 4 is just fine. Uh, we tend to break them up kind of by kinds of whiskey, but you could, you could categorize it any way you want. You said you don't drink very much whiskey, so you could just say, What whiskey would you drink, or what alcohol would you drink, and how does this compare to that?

[00:06:09] Rizel: okay. I'm going to give it a four cause it wasn't terrible.

[00:06:17] Robbie: Nice.

[00:06:17] Rizel: I was able to swallow it. Oh, well, I drink it all the time. Not necessarily. It was better than what I would think of like tequila or vodka. I think those things like hand sanitizer. So this is, this is a step up from hand sanitizer for me. I think. I drink I drink really fruity drinks, like,

[00:06:38] Chuck: Oh, yeah,

[00:06:38] Rizel: the more sugar the better.

[00:06:40] Chuck: Yeah, yeah. so what do you think? Are you leaving this, uh, bottle there? Or are you going to take it back and maybe make a cocktail with it?

[00:06:48] Rizel: I'ma take it? In fact, when you guys sent it to me, I was like, let me taste it first, because I don't want to embarrass myself on the stream, on the podcast. And then my friends said they wanted to taste it too, so like, it's halfway done.

[00:07:02] Chuck: Oh,

[00:07:02] Robbie: Oh wow.

[00:07:03] Chuck: I love it. Alright, fair enough. See, you've got a refined palette now. You didn't even realize that. Um, and, and Robbie embarrasses himself every week, so

[00:07:12] Robbie: Yeah, sure. Do we both do usually?

[00:07:14] Chuck: Yeah, yeah. I'm actually going to agree with you. I'm going to give this a four. I think that, uh, it has an interesting flavor based on the mash build, but it's not amazing. It doesn't blow me away. It's not something... you know I, I can't say it was unique enough in any way that I'd like, Oh yeah, I'm, I'm kind of craving that. I'd want that. I could see this being really good as mixed and just Like. you know, whiskey and Coke,

[00:07:37] Rizel: Ohhhh!

[00:07:38] Chuck: that cherry kind of flavor to it. It'd be a real simple whiskey and Coke kind of thing. But that said, you could, you could do that with a lot of things, probably 20, 25 bucks off the shelf and, and get the same experience. Once you start mixing it with a single mixer like that, you're not getting a ton anyway. So I'm with you. It's not bad. It's not great. It's four. Hmm.

[00:07:58] Robbie: I'm, gonna go a step up. I'm gonna give it a five. I think it's, uh, I agree that it's not great compared to our, uh, baseline rise. Always go back to Sagamore being the best, which is actually a little cheaper than this and much, much better. So, yeah, I'm gonna say a five, but I'll just give it that little step up cause I do enjoy the little, uh, cherry Cola flavor.

[00:08:20] Chuck: It might be interesting in a Manhattan, you know, where you get that cherry in there, and a little cherry flavor, and sweet vermouth, and it's pretty simple, but might work for that.

[00:08:29] Robbie: Yeah.

[00:08:30] Chuck: I'll let you both know how that goes.

[00:08:32] Robbie: Okay. Alright. So we always start with some hot takes here. Um, so we'll just jump right into these. They're things people usually argue about on Twitter. Um, they're not as controversial anymore. Like some of them are a little older, but uh, we still like to ask

[00:08:49] Chuck: hmm. I still like, them. Yeah.

[00:08:51] Robbie: Yeah. Yeah. So the first one is, uh, in TypeScript, do you prefer inferred types or explicit types?

[00:09:00] Rizel: Ooh. Okay, I think people would hate me. I prefer explicit types, I think. I just I think... I'm not a typescript whiz. So, that's usually the... That's the way I initially learned it. That's what I usually go for. I think it's easier for me to read, but I don't know. What about y'all?

[00:09:24] Chuck: I mean, I feel like that, but first of all, I don't think there's a wrong answer anyway, but, uh, I think that you have a valid, uh, use case for why explicit is fine and works for you in that you can enter a new file and read and understand what's expected throughout things, right? So it's, uh, it's verbose and right, right. they're accessible to you. You're not, um, you're not like waiting for the TypeScript plugin to, once you hover, to show you the thing that it thinks is going to happen. And then you're going to be like Oh, well, I better make that work. So I don't break stuff. And you know, it's already, you already know you're going into it informed. And I think that's, that's a good case.

[00:10:03] Rizel: Exactly.

[00:10:03] Robbie: Yeah. Yeah. There's, there's no wrong answer. I think it depends on, the use case and like sometimes the more complex the thing is like a really gross type. I would use an inferred type just because I don't want to have to, like, figure all that out. But, um, but yeah, there's not really a wrong answer.

[00:10:21] Rizel: true. What?

[00:10:21] Chuck: Depends. I do like the, it depends answer to a degree because I feel like that applies to life a bunch.

[00:10:27] Rizel: That's true. Just don't tell, like, Matt Pocock or, um, Josh Goldberg that I said that. They probably wouldn't

[00:10:34] Robbie: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:10:34] Chuck: Well, Josh might listen to this because he's been on, so he might know

[00:10:38] Robbie: so is Matt,

[00:10:40] Chuck: Yeah, yeah,

[00:10:40] Robbie: hasn't aired yet, but

[00:10:42] Chuck: Right. See, that's how I always... Categorize them, and they haven't happened if they haven't aired yet, so, anyway, that's my fallacy. Um, so this will, this next question makes me think of a funny video I just saw on Twitter today, so, uh, but we'll ask the question first and then I'll give you my context. Uh, Tailwind or Vanilla CSS?

[00:11:03] Rizel: I feel strongly I'm gonna go with vanilla CSS. I'm sorry to Tailwind folks. I think Tailwind makes, like, I think it makes, like, HTML elements or components look really messy and hard to read. And I'm just like, get your CSS skills up if you're struggling. But I understand why people would use Tailwind. Um, over CSS. It makes it much faster for them. The documentation is really excellent. They do a great job at that. Um, but yeah, that's that's my opinion.

[00:11:41] Chuck: Yeah, I I mean, your answer is the right answer for you, so that applies. So the cal. com guy put on like a parody video that was like tech centric. So like there's this video on Twitter of a creator on Tik TOK who I don't know. It doesn't, it doesn't make sense to me cause I'm not on Tik TOK. So I don't, but she's like, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Ice cream. Good. Yes, yes, yes. Gang, gang, gang, gang. I don't know what it is. She's talking about Like these virtual gifts that she's being given. And so you, you, we haven't seen that either of you, I guess. You should

[00:12:16] Robbie: no, but I saw the parody video.

[00:12:19] Chuck: You saw thecal. com where he's like, Tailwind, yes, yes, yes! CSS, yes, yes,

[00:12:23] Robbie: React. Yummy. Or something like that. Yeah.

[00:12:28] Chuck: yes,

[00:12:28] Rizel: No.

[00:12:28] Chuck: yes! Uh, yeah, so... Anyway, that's all I can think of now when I see Tailwind. It's, yes, yes! yes! Tailwind, yes, yes! Yummy! Um...

[00:12:38] Rizel: do it. I don't do it.

[00:12:40] Robbie: Yeah. Anyway, um, get rebase or get merge.

[00:12:46] Rizel: Ooh. Okay. I used to hate Rebasing. I was like, so stressed out by it. I'll be like, Oh, my gosh, I'm going to delete code that's needed. But I worked at this startup where this guy, like, the one of one of our, like, senior engineers, he like, I want to say, I'm gonna use the word force. He forced us to do read basic and like, kind of like, sat down with us made sure we understood how to do it each time. Um, I see the value in it. I like it. Um, and yeah. Yeah, I'm a, I'm a rebase person now, or for the last couple of years, and we used to call him the, the Git tater, like for Git tater, but like for Git.

[00:13:27] Chuck: Well, I love that he was willing to put, you know, his money where his mouth is, kind of thing. Not just saying, this is the best way, you all have to go figure it out. But, I'm gonna help you on the happy path, have a happy path, in what I think is the best way to do things. So, like, being an advocate in that way, like, that's great. Too

[00:13:46] Rizel: dope

[00:13:46] Chuck: yeah, that was awesome. Um, milk Or milk substitute?

[00:13:55] Rizel: for that That's not a coded question. Alright, I thought it was.

[00:13:58] Chuck: It was a hot take. It still belongs

[00:14:00] Rizel: didn't know that. Oh, is that what everyone was talking about on Twitter? I went on Twitter and everybody was like, Milk! And I was like, I don't know what y'all was talking about.

[00:14:09] Chuck: I don't know. I'm just happy that I didn't contribute to it. I just enjoyed it as, as a yeah. So, I don't, yeah.

[00:14:18] Rizel: I'm, I'm vegetarian. And I've been vegetarian all my life. So I'mma go, I mean, vegetarians drink milk. But, I'mma go for milk substitute. Because, it's, tastes better. I'm sorry. Yeah, you get different flavors. I mean, I guess you get chocolate milk or strawberry, but like you can get like coconut, you can get oat milk. Yeah, it's good.

[00:14:44] Robbie: Yeah.

[00:14:44] Chuck: Fair enough.

[00:14:46] Rizel: Yeah.

[00:14:47] Robbie: All right. Yeah. We'll skip this last one. I feel like it's not relevant anymore or should I ask it Chuck? What do you think

[00:14:54] Chuck: Well, now you brought it up, now she's

[00:14:55] Robbie: Well,

[00:14:56] Chuck: Like, that's not nice, just take it

[00:14:58] Robbie: Well, okay.

[00:14:59] Chuck: you gotta give her access to

[00:15:00] Robbie: We should have discussed. All right. Well, we'll do this one last time. Uh, what do you think about signals?

[00:15:07] Rizel: Oh, actually, I don't know anything about that, so maybe I shouldn't. What is, what do you mean by signals? Like,

[00:15:14] Robbie: Uh, like in SolidJS where they have, um, like instead of hooks, they have like a, a signal. Um.

[00:15:22] Rizel: That's, that's beyond me. I don't know.

[00:15:25] Chuck: It's like scoped, scoped state management patterns.

[00:15:29] Rizel: Gotcha. I haven't, I haven't played around with Solid yet, So that's part of why. I should've let you say it was irrelevant and move on.

[00:15:36] Chuck: Oh yeah, and that had nothing to do with you, it's just like, not really a hot take on Twitter anymore. Like, the ship has sailed, pun intended. So. Okay. Technical things. Should we talk about technical things? Job things. Work things. Technologies. I'm gonna pour a second thing. You ask.

[00:15:56] Robbie: Yeah. So, uh, yeah, the thing I saw you, uh, debating with people on a bit was, um, about whether developer advocates and DevRel roles and stuff should be technical or non technical and like, what does technical even mean when you're doing that and stuff? Um, just curious to get some of your thoughts around that.

[00:16:17] Rizel: Yes! Okay, so, I gotta make sure I say this in a way that doesn't rob Tech Twitter up all over again. But, here's the thing, I do I do agree that, first of all, developer relations as a whole is very broad, right? You have community managers, you have technical writers, you have developer advocates and developer experience engineers, so on and so forth. Maybe a community manager doesn't necessarily need to be technical, um, because they just need to be able to communicate with people, um, and be able to support them. I think particularly it's helpful if a developer advocate is, is either willing to be technical or is already technical because part of our role is to make sure people understand how to use the product. and I think when, um, folks Like Angie Jones or, or Brian, I think it was Brian West. I hope I said his name right. We're putting that out there. They weren't saying it to gatekeep and saying you cannot be a developer advocate if you're not technical. They were, or even me, right? We're saying it'll help you to do the job better. It's, to me, I find it very hard. It's possible. But very hard to maybe write a blog post or do some, do a talk on something I've never leveraged or built with or used. Like, all I'm doing is listening to somebody else. And I think that doesn't make the experience as authentic as it could be. Because I'm essentially just what a marketer and that was that's like the opposite of why developer advocacy was created is because like software engineers don't trust marketers just because you said it's fast and performant. well How do I know you're telling the truth? It doesn't necessarily mean you need to be a software engineer like there's different types of advocates out there like maybe you have a network engineering experience or solution architect. Something like that where you're able to take those skills And be like, okay, here's how this could be applicable to somebody in these roles. Here's how they can build with it so they can see something real with it. And then, my, what I was debating in particular was that people on Twitter, they tend to have this idealistic way of the way, like, the way the world works. Like, yeah, it would be nice if... Companies will be more welcoming and support people who may not have the traditional sense of like technical or you know what I mean, but I've experienced even being a software engineer coming out of a, coding boot camp and going to a startup, nobody was helping me, nobody was supporting me and I was like floundering. So I always say that more to protect people rather than I'm like, just go in with the mindset that you want to be taking initiative, building things, trying to absorb information. And then, um, Erin, who works at, I forget what the name of the company is called, but it's a machine learning company. She talked about, she brought up a good point of Like, what technical can mean different things. it doesn't necessarily, you might be technical or strong at. Machine learning, but You don't really know, get that well, or, or next JS or like, I, I don't know anything about solid JS, so it can vary. Um, but it's just like. Be be able to know what that company needs from you, maybe what they're missing. Maybe the company has a whole bunch of great engineers and they don't need that from you. They need a more content focused person, but you should be able to be able to communicate with engineers and be able to produce that content. Vice versa. Maybe you have people in the company that are great at marketing, but they need someone who's going to be building out. code samples. Then you won't need, that's when you know you need to be able to. Know how to do The work or know how to level yourself up and not be afraid to experiment So I think that's my long way of saying everything

[00:20:20] Chuck: Yeah, well, okay. So, I think I have a couple of questions around, around some of the things that you said. I do think it's interesting, and I didn't see this discussion, so if I repeat any, make you repeat anything, I'm sorry. But, uh, is a skills gap gatekeeping, first of all? I think it depends, like, obviously what is the job. Description and what you're expected to perform, because I have seen like developer advocate engineers, right? And they expect you to write some code and contribute some, but some of your primary. So I think like the description of the job depends, but I mean, I'm not, I don't think I'm understanding the accusation around gatekeeping. Because you wouldn't go to a doctor who hasn't been to medical school, right? And then that's not gatekeeping, that's just, that's a skill that's required for the position.

[00:21:13] Rizel: Yeah, I think I'm I might more think like you but some people do think that like When you hear people say these things it'll discourage them from wanting to go forward with these roles and I can see that because I remember, um, at least in maybe a couple years ago, before developer advocacy was like super, super, super popular, and in Massachusetts, developer advocacy, at least, at least the areas I know wasn't that well known. So when I would tell, like my coworkers or somebody that that's my career goal, they'll be like, I think that's for like really senior engineers, I'm not sure. So that could be seen as like oh, like I was like, dang, I guess I can't be that right now. And maybe people see that as like, oh, that's like putting someone down. I think that just made me, made me figure out like, oh, I need to probably level up in these certain areas. Or I need to figure out if that's actually true. I don't think telling someone that a skills gap is wrong. Cause I agree with you. I don't want anybody that is a doctor talking about like, I'm good at cardiology, but I'm not really good at this other thing. You know, like that'll be great. But I think, I think, oh sorry, go ahead.

[00:22:29] Chuck: No, no, I want to let you finish your thought.

[00:22:30] Rizel: Oh, the only other thing I was going to say is I think, I think Twitter and other developers are trying to move away from like, making people, making hiring managers not see the potential in other people. Because if you looked at my resume before, you might not say, this is a developer advocate. But I think I'm a really good developer advocate. So I think that's what they're trying to do. But I think they're going too far on the extreme. That's all.

[00:22:57] Chuck: I think that, there you go, I'm glad I let you finish that, because I think you're highlighting some of the other things that I wanted to bring up, which is around, like, the skills... that are necessary for a successful person in that position are beyond that that are technical, right? They're communication based, and there's empathy based, and there's some other things there. that exists that can like, it doesn't mean you need to be a senior engineer or 10 plus years. You need to have showcased some additional skills that are good for this. And also I think it's a little bit of a misnomer that like, this is a new job. It's just been formalized and, and given its own priority. If these are, this is work that people have been doing in software. Along with a billion other things that finally got like Oh, scaled up because we want to, we want to have people more, uh, specialized and focused. And so, you know, you come into an organization and you show aptitude. Oh, you're pretty good at coding, but you're a great communicator. And you're the docs work you're doing is awesome. And the empathy that you have to like, sit down and help people and get feedback. So now you're kind of a product person too. And you're, you know, relaying that back into the team and like, so it's just like, it's, it's not. It's apples and oranges. Essentially, you're like identifying talent and giving an opportunity based on like a knowledge set. But again, you know, you don't get published papers in a medical journal without going to medical school first, right? So, you know, you, you get in there and you write some code and you've launched some things and you fail a couple of times. And maybe you've been doing this three years or 30 years. But somebody sees potential in, you know, providing value in these other positions. And I, so, there's no, not really a right answer, but I do think having some technical aptitude showing that in some way and just knowing How to talk the talk is an important part. It's just, you you, can't. And I don't think that, like, someone in, um, you know, coming right out of, like, a coding boot camp, or even a CS graduate can go right into it, though. You need to, you know, you need a few scars.

[00:25:03] Rizel: Yeah, I think, I think those help. I think, I think, what, I think what people should start thinking about more is just having range on the team. Cause I do have people on my team who have never been software engineers before. But they're really excellent at being developer advocates. Um, because they, they read, they, they, interact with The open source community, or whatever, and they try to build things. So like, it's having that range of like, oh, there's, maybe, maybe a boot camper can graduate and go into that, because maybe they're advocating for, for beginners. Whereas you have someone who's more advanced and advocating more for, for advanced folks.

[00:25:41] Chuck: That's true, that's just range on the team. That's like, you know, a product software engineering team. You don't want, you know, four senior engineers who are gonna fight over, you know, what technology to use forever or something of that nature. Like, you need range and you need, like, you know, uh, a good mindshare.

[00:25:59] Rizel: Yeah, and I love that you brought up empathy and stuff Like that, because that, that is important. It is important to have good communication skills. There are engineers that are so good at coding, of course. I wouldn't say I'm one of them. I'm okay. But there's engineers that are so good at coding, but they don't know how to put themselves out there or learn in public or make things relatable. So, yeah, that's all I wanted to add.

[00:26:27] Robbie: Chuck, it says your computer stopped recording, so you should refresh your...

[00:26:31] Rizel: I don't know.

[00:26:40] Robbie: Sorry about that. it seemed like his camera broke, which is, always makes it crash, so.

[00:26:45] Rizel: That's alright. I'm chillin I hope I'm not saying anything. Crazy. Like, I hope It's a lot. Okay, cool.

[00:26:54] Robbie: Yeah, no, everything's been fine. Nothing too controversial.

[00:26:59] Rizel: Okay, cool. You really like, that, because you're still drinking it. Maybe you have to drink more.

[00:27:16] Robbie: It's not required. I just, uh, just finishing what I poured. I poured too much, but, It happens.

[00:27:24] Rizel: Whew. I'm like, never mind, I don't want

[00:27:30] Robbie: Yeah, I do think it would be good for some cocktails, though. I'll have to try that later.

[00:27:34] Rizel: it. Yeah. Mixing it, make it sweeter and stuff. It'll be good.

[00:27:40] Robbie: for sure.

[00:27:44] Rizel: This is a fun, like, premise of a podcast. Like, you start it off relaxed, and then get into the spicy stuff.

[00:27:56] Robbie: Yeah, people usually are pretty tame, but we occasionally have someone that'll drink a lot and get pretty feisty by

[00:28:06] Rizel: Oh my gosh. He's back.

[00:28:13] Robbie: the end. Your camera broke. Yeah,

[00:28:28] Rizel: that's okay.

[00:28:29] Robbie: Yeah. Is it just gonna stay blurry? Okay. Um, just unplug it for, for like a second or, or switch to your other camera. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. Oh. Do you should I I, guess I should stop while we're figuring this out.

[00:29:24] Chuck: for a minute. There we go. I don't know. It's something. This is the reality. Okay. And take two. Um, I think I lost a little momentum that we were talking about, but yeah, I knew we were on the track around empathy and having that aspect of it. You, you jump in too quiet. Yeah. Why not do it?

[00:30:11] Robbie: So yeah, for me, I think, uh, one of the common themes around all of these things we've been discussing is like, even if you're hiring engineers specifically, you know, how technical should they be? Or like, do we care more about the person being a good employee, you know, having the right ideals for the company, um, you know, being a good fit, that kind of stuff, or do we care more about tons of experience? And it's a hard thing to nail down because there's like, you know, pros and cons to both sides, I would say, but, uh, Yeah, that's just kind of what I was thinking.

[00:30:44] Rizel: Yeah, I think that's fair. I think, I think, I, this might be repeat, repeat of what I said. I don't remember what I said, but I think to me,

[00:30:55] Chuck: works!

[00:30:58] Rizel: to me, the most important thing is just like, do you have the resources to support them? To me, like, if you see that, yes, this person is excited and willing to learn, I And you have the ability to set them up for success, then I think it's a match made in heaven. But if you're like, right now we don't have anybody that's going to be able to help this person out or answer questions when needed, and maybe our culture is toxic, maybe... Maybe it's not necessarily the right time to, to bring in a person who's junior. Cause I almost think, or, or a person who may not have all those technical skills. Because I almost think that's going to set their career back and their confidence back. And they're just wasting years when they could be at a company learning and growing and building.

[00:31:53] Chuck: That's true, that's true. Like, the right environment for that, too. You know, doesn't mean no everywhere. Like, the answer doesn't necessarily mean you can't do this anywhere. We just don't have the right setup, the right culture, for folks at that stage in their career. I mean, that's definitely worth... Yeah, like a brand new startup, probably not a great place for you to go.

[00:32:14] Rizel: Yeah. I did that. I think it was good in the sense of like, I learned to build stuff and not be nervous. And like, just build things quickly and like, iterate. You know, when people say there's a bug, I'm like, alright, I got it. Um, but I do think my confidence would have been even higher or I could have excelled even more if there was more support. Um, but you know, like, it depends.

[00:32:40] Chuck: Yeah, it depends. It's always a valid answer. It depends.

[00:32:48] Robbie: Yeah.

[00:32:49] Chuck: question, Robbie?

[00:32:50] Robbie: Well, I did this question,

[00:32:52] Chuck: Oh,

[00:32:52] Robbie: but I can do another one if you want.

[00:32:57] Chuck: no, that's fine. Uh, what are some open source projects you're excited about right now? And I'm sorry, I didn't give that much excitement, but I do mean it.

[00:33:06] Rizel: Um, I think I really, I like Astro, like that is such a, like, it's such an accessible, easy project to use. The team is so amazing. They make the documentation great. They, they have a good process for contributing. Um, I contributed to it and I thought, I was like, wow, in my head, I'm like, this is such a big project. I don't know if I could contribute to it, but it was like a really easy process. Lots of good feedback and back and forth, um, and I think I'm enjoying that the way that the web is going is like, how can we make coding more accessible for folks, whether it's through AI or whether it's through, like, shipping less JavaScript or something like that. Like, I think, I like that. We're going for that direction now.

[00:33:56] Chuck: Yeah, I do. I love that. Uh, basically making HTML a first class citizen on the internet again, which is such a strange thing to say because that was the whole point, and all the rest has just been like, how do we leverage this to do other stuff?

[00:34:12] Robbie: Yeah. People are going to take stuff and use it for things it wasn't meant for. That happens everywhere. So that's, but if they hadn't done that, we would not have careers in, in building web apps. So

[00:34:22] Chuck: Yeah. Sometimes that's innovation, and sometimes it's like bastardization of things, and you're like, Uh, is this hacky? I don't know.

[00:34:31] Rizel: True.

[00:34:32] Robbie: it's all fine.

[00:34:33] Chuck: Yeah. I contributed to Astro also, by the way. Just the docs, so, yeah.

[00:34:39] Rizel: No, I, I think I just did the docs too, but I was like adding action in there. It was like,

[00:34:44] Chuck: Yeah. I've got some...

[00:34:47] Rizel: yeah. Oh, there's another framework that I'm excited about, even though I'm not super into the, I don't know much about the angular community, but Brandon Roberts, he works at open sauce. He has a project called, wait, I want to Google it because now. Metaframework, Angular, Brandon Robert. Oh, it's Analog. I didn't even finish Googling.

[00:35:12] Chuck: Oh, yes, I've heard of that. I didn't realize that was Angular based.

[00:35:16] Rizel: yeah. It's, it's his thing. It's Angular based. And like, his whole idea is like, Angular doesn't get as much love as React. And people are not building like, Metaframeworks around it. So like, Analog, I guess, is like, the next JS. But for, for Angular, and I'm excited about. That, as well. Yeah. Yes.

[00:35:37] Chuck: I do love the rise of meta frameworks as being like the problem with react in the past was it was so subjective and 47 different packages to put together for an app because it was never depend, you know, it was never intended to be an application framework. It was just like these cool, updatable components on a page. And, you know, they're like, they were serving PHP that booted up in JavaScript and then it. You know, became reactive. Uh, so it was, I just love that like, that has started to become a thing across the board of, Oh yeah, you could piecemeal things together if you want, but um, well we've got something more opinionated, and if you want to be productive, opinionated is a good way to go.

[00:36:18] Rizel: Yes. Yeah.

[00:36:22] Robbie: Ember and excuse me, Angular have been doing that for a while though. Like they're getting more and more like that now, but like just shipping a router, for instance, is a. I feel like pretty important to have a way to get from one page to another. Uh, so, you know, um, I think the meta frameworks have to exist for that.

[00:36:43] Chuck: Hmm.

[00:36:43] Robbie: you saying, Chuck?

[00:36:44] Chuck: Or at least well, I was gonna say at least picking a way to do that that everybody's agreed on that for this although, you know next. js is kind of regressing out of that going from you know pages page router to Yeah, that's a whole other

[00:36:57] Robbie: That's the new

[00:36:58] Chuck: app router or something. I don't know. I know and which is like Why what's it giving you? I don't know. I heard it's not ready for primetime and What was there before just made so much sense to me. Like I don't need more components, you know, like components aren't application logic. And why do you keep trying to make it be that doesn't make sense to me.

[00:37:21] Rizel: What a relief. I thought I was the only one. Like, I see people, they love it. And I'm like, maybe I didn't try it enough. I liked how it was before.

[00:37:32] Chuck: I'm like, I'm not updating anything like this still works. Like until they remove support, I wouldn't, I wouldn't move over. I don't see what the point is. Like if it ain't broke, I believe in that, you know,

[00:37:44] Robbie: Yeah. Yeah. I'm on team. Make it magic. Like. Why do we need to do all this work for like years to be like, I made it one, like what's even smaller than a millisecond. Like, you know, like barely faster. Look at all this work I did to do this. Like, okay, well it was rendering in like 10 milliseconds before. So like, do we care? Like, let's just keep it the way it was.

[00:38:08] Rizel: Yeah.

[00:38:09] Chuck: you start to, like, question the whole thing, essentially. Like, the React server components thing. Where it's like, Oh, okay. Is it just because you want to write JavaScript on the server? Like, you know, no, does that, whatever. I don't know. You're just trying to be, otherwise, I just don't know what the point is. The whole thing was about efficient updates and rendering on the front end. If you stop doing it in the browser and you have a whole other engine, guess what? There's a billion things that are super fast that do that same damn thing. Like, I don't know, go spin up a Django site. They still work. It's fine. I don't know. So, you know, it's just made me question everything. And then now I'm just like, I'm like you, Astro's awesome. It just likes HTML. HTML's pretty good, you know? And, uh, it turns out, like, an anchor link will take you to another page, too. So, you know? Like, I don't need all this weird shit to do that. I just put an anchor and tell it where to go. Route's done.

[00:39:08] Rizel: Keep it simple.

[00:39:09] Chuck: Yeah, exactly. I'm a very big advocate for keep it simple. I think that a lot of really smart people needed to show that, that how smart they are. And they created a whole bunch of like crazy computer science y logic. A bunch of back end devs got pissed off and they were like, We're gonna write a thing that's really smart to the browser. And it is smart stuff, but is it too much? Is it over complicated? I don't know. That's my hot take. Maybe you went too far.

[00:39:36] Rizel: No.

[00:39:38] Robbie: Yeah. Just tweet frameworks for a mistake.

[00:39:41] Rizel: Oh.

[00:39:42] Chuck: I'll, I'll live tweet it, see what happens. You guys talk about the next thing, I'm going to tweet it right now. I am literally going to do it, so you guys talk about the next thing.

[00:39:52] Robbie: Um, yeah, I don't know what all you can actually say things about, but like what cool is going on at GitHub now? Anything, uh, that's really cool coming

[00:40:05] Rizel: you heard of CoPilotX? Where,

[00:40:09] Robbie: I've heard of Copilot. I don't know what the difference in X is.

[00:40:14] Rizel: Okay. Alright, that's good. Well, you know, we're, GitHub's going all in on, on the AI front. You know, we are, like, uh, I think, I think we're changing our slogan to, like, We're this developer platform powered by AI. I'm, I'm, I'm paraphrasing it. But, like, powered by AI that helps the, the workflow. But, basically, Copilot X is... It's kind of a marketing term, but it represents like a suite of different CoPilot type of products that go beyond the editor. So, we have like CoPilot for Docs coming out, um, which that helps you, that helps to aggregate the documentation for you, and then people can just put in a question and it'll pop out the answer for you. We got CoPilot Voice. Which I demoed at, um, GitHub Universe, where like, it helps people who may not be able to type because of physical dexterity issues, or they're visually impaired, and they can just talk and have it print out. The, one of my favorite ones is Copilot for CLI, so let's say you don't remember, uh, uh, a command in the CLI or something like that, you just type it in English, your natural language, and it'll print out. What it wants you, what it thinks you want to do, and then you like confirm, because you don't want to just run like, oh, I want to do this, and then it deletes everything. But it'll like, it'll put the command out there, and it'll explain it, and then it's like, do you want this, or do you want to revise your query? I think that's good, because I feel like I'm not doing things in the command line that often, that I always remember all these like, different little things, like repping and all that. And then we also got Copilot Chat. Which is like ChatGPT, but in Visual Studio Code. I've been using it a lot, and I like it because it has that context of your code, um, or whatever you're writing in your editor. And it's not like with ChatGPT you have to keep copying and pasting, or sometimes I go to ChatGPT and then I'm on Twitter instead. Like I was typing some code and I'm like, oh, let's see what Twitter is saying. That's, that's like my ADHD. So, it helps me to, to stay focused. So, like, those are the type of things. I think we also have Copilot for pull requests. Um, I haven't gotten a chance to deep dive into that yet, but it's supposed to, like, give suggestions of how you can improve your pull request and stuff like that. So,

[00:42:42] Chuck: Ooh,

[00:42:43] Rizel: we're expanding.

[00:42:44] Chuck: that. Are these all available now, or are these things that are like, invites, or?

[00:42:50] Rizel: Okay, so Copilot Chat is invite. I think Copilot PCLI is invite. Um, the other ones, they're still, they're still coming.

[00:43:00] Chuck: So, if, say, let's just say hypothetically that someone sent you free whiskey, would they get an invite? Like, let's just, you know, just throwing that out there, like, randomly. If they were to bribe you without bribing you, would they get invites?

[00:43:18] Rizel: we could see. There is a, I get a lot of pushback. There's a very long line. But like, we could see, we could see.

[00:43:25] Chuck: Okay. Alright. I, I don't know. I might know people. I'm just saying. So I think this is a good question that kind of tidies up what we were discussing earlier a little bit too, possibly. And a different question that Robbie had written, so I think this will get us there. If you weren't in this career, what would you be doing?

[00:43:49] Rizel: If I wasn't in this career? Interesting.

[00:43:53] Chuck: Let's just say tech wasn't a thing, what do you think you'd be doing?

[00:43:56] Rizel: I think I would want to be a professor or a writer. I think I wanted to be a writer when I was younger. Or a journalist and my family is like, that doesn't make money. What about a doctor?

[00:44:09] Chuck: They're like, we're trying to retire, yo. Um, yeah. I like that. I'm gonna force my kids into careers, so. Uh, based on my personal financial gain. Like, remember when I bought you every Pokemon you wanted? Looks like you're gonna be a surgeon. Um, oh, I don't know. That's probably not true. But I, I, I, so I asked that cause I think it ties into like us, like really diving into what is developer advocate, developer relations like roles. And I mean, I see the, uh, overlaps and parallels with some of this, like, yeah, you're not a professor at a university, but you do get to teach people and like help and, uh, you get to write things, uh, you know, technical writing is certainly a skill of its own. And, uh. and speak and all of those things. So I think like in a way you sort of got there with a better salary, your parents might say.

[00:45:01] Rizel: I think so. I think you might say that and yeah, that's that's why I like developer advocacy because I feel like I have a lot of different skills and at first if I like was in just software engineering my skills were dormant, but now I get to like Do whatever I want. If I'm like, I don't feel like writing today. I can write code or I can do a talk or whatever. Yeah.

[00:45:22] Chuck: Yeah. And that's all your work and that's all your responsibilities. So then you have diversity there. You're, you're, uh, I think right here, you're, uh, You're getting people interested in that, that, you know, I, there's so, it's so frequent that you find, uh, lately, it seems like people who have either been a teacher or had considered that as a career path that they end up in this, right. And they went into tech because there's, you know, a lot of positives and of course trade offs there, but people were drawn to it for, for potential and opportunity and, but finding that, Hey, oh my gosh, the things that I did enjoy. Like, I get to do that now. I still, you know, and I guess you're teaching adults rather than children potentially, but as a professor, it would have been adults too anyway.

[00:46:08] Rizel: Yeah. No, that's so true.

[00:46:12] Robbie: Yeah, yeah, I definitely think there's uh, a lot of teachers out there who aren't getting paid much and are frustrated so, come try this out.

[00:46:20] Chuck: Right? Like work on your technical skills and hopefully you have like, I mean, you know, it's like a lot of things though. You can't necessarily just come and say, I want to work remote, so I'm going to become an engineer and, and then you hate it. Like it's not going to work for you. Right? Like you can't just say, Oh, I want the benefits in the lifestyle because unfortunately there's, there's trade offs to that. So

[00:46:42] Rizel: Yeah. But you can, the tech is so vast that they can find something. They can be a product manager. They can find something that. They feel passionate about and leverages their skills in a way they feel useful.

[00:46:55] Chuck: yeah, it feels like in so many ways, like Tech is taking over, at least, like, in America, right? Like, it's become what can be just about anybody's career path. They can kind of at least have an overlap somewhere on it because all the other things are kind of going away, right? Manufacturing and things of that nature. It's sort of like... What, where do we, some kind of intellectual property, ideology, and then the support around that. It seems to be like the, the next American dream in a way.

[00:47:29] Rizel: Yeah. I don't know if I feel scared by that or excited. Like, it's a little scary, but it's also...

[00:47:36] Chuck: I think it is a little scary, I just don't think there's anything we can do about it, so it doesn't matter. And that's like, kind of the, uh, like, that's, that's the position I've taken, is like, I can't really feel too strongly one way or another about it, because that seems like, you know, you're trying to fight the machine that you, you're not, you can't do anything about it. That's it, it's here.

[00:47:56] Rizel: Yeah. That's so true.

[00:47:59] Robbie: Yeah, you just gotta evolve and keep doing, uh, you know, whatever the next thing is. Well, I'll be programming AI stuff, I guess, instead of building websites, but...

[00:48:09] Chuck: Something like that. Prompt engineer. That's why you're in your parents basement, because you're a prompt

[00:48:14] Robbie: Cause I build

[00:48:15] Chuck: Doesn't pay as well. Yeah, that's it. It's commoditized. It's a, there's a fast food website. You know, you just go through a drive thru and at the end you get a website and Robbie's there at the, at the window. Yeah, it's deployed. Yeah.

[00:48:29] Rizel: No, but I agree about evolving, because I know people are like scared of AI, but I'm like, you know, you should move with the times, like, figure out how to make it work for you, figure out how to influence it so it can be ethical, and the way that you want it, and move with the times so you can stay employed.

[00:48:49] Chuck: Exactly. Like, is it a, yeah, is it a replacement for humans a hundred percent? I would be pretty, pretty surprised if that was the case. You know, the only time you need to be scared is when it is like armed and And is called Skynet and is moving towards you. And looks like Arnold Schwarzenegger. That's the point, to be scared.

[00:49:09] Rizel: True.

[00:49:09] Robbie: Yeah,

[00:49:11] Rizel: I'm dead.

[00:49:12] Robbie: yeah. I mean, nobody was upset when, like... You know, it's, if you were a person who did accounting, let's say, before computers, you probably weren't like, Oh, this computer came out. I hate this. Like, it's going to take my jobs. You're like, Oh my gosh, this makes me faster. Like, you know, I feel like people should feel like that with AI. Yeah.

[00:49:29] Chuck: Yeah, the calculator didn't eliminate accountants, turns

[00:49:33] Robbie: Yeah.

[00:49:34] Chuck: The inputs are still important, right? The rules, the inputs, there's definitely... Yeah, there's a lot of things.

[00:49:41] Rizel: Yeah, you still need a brain. That's

[00:49:44] Chuck: out Intel AI replaces the brain, right? Is there a mechanical brain? I don't

[00:49:48] Rizel: the

[00:49:50] Chuck: like, there'll be enough AI somehow to, like, improve our usage and capacity of our own brains. And then we'll surpass it. I don't... Who knows. What is

[00:50:01] Robbie: brain chips. You're going to sign up for those.

[00:50:04] Chuck: I mean, maybe. I'm not saying... Like, if I use... Yeah, if I use 20% I'm on the way out, you know, so I might as well as this ships burning going down I'm gonna be 46. Oh, I'm gonna be 46 this year or like in

[00:50:18] Rizel: That's not even old.

[00:50:20] Chuck: It's half dead Statistically, it's half dead. So, you know, it might as well try to do as many like if I got no, you know Shoulder pain sometimes and they were like you could have a bionic arm and it would be painless and you would it would be Better maybe I would do that. I don't know. I can't say I wouldn't

[00:50:36] Rizel: The bionic arm seems more, less risky. Than a brain

[00:50:42] Chuck: Yeah, right. The brain, the brain controls a lot of stuff. That's true. So maybe like become Steve Austin first and not the wrestler you got. Neither of you get this reference. The, the,

[00:50:52] Robbie: Oh, I know the wrestler,

[00:50:53] Chuck: the

[00:50:53] Robbie: but I don't know them. I don't know the bionic man,

[00:50:56] Chuck: Steve Austin is the name of the bionic man, which was like a 70s show where like he's a military person and had like an accident and they basically rebuild him with bionic man. Part robotic parts and so he has all this like crazy strength and ability and but he's still mentally just him. It's like It's almost like RoboCop, you know RoboCop, right? Okay, so like that Without like a steel exterior though Like, you know, he just wore a normal like jumpsuit or something and was able to jump 40 feet But and it was yeah, it's called the million dollar man And in the 70s, that was a lot of money

[00:51:32] Rizel: We need some, you know, after the 1990s references.

[00:51:37] Chuck: know some 90s things

[00:51:38] Robbie: Chuck hasn't watched any TV in the last 30

[00:51:41] Chuck: 90s. Listen, Friends, uh, Friends was in the 90s. Just, you know, Friends was in the 90s, so. I know a lot about

[00:51:48] Robbie: Yeah, I know friends.

[00:51:51] Chuck: Did you, yeah, yeah. Were you in the I Hate Rachel Club too? With Brad Pitt?

[00:51:56] Rizel: Me?

[00:51:56] Chuck: I Hate Rachel Green. You don't, do you remember the episode where Brad Pitt came on to Friends? And it was like kind of funny because they were together, but his character went to high school with Ross, and they was like good friends. And all the girls obviously were like, Oh, Brad Pitt! You know, like, But, uh, he was nerdy in high school, and him and Ross formed the I Hate Rachel Green Club.

[00:52:20] Rizel: sure my husband will probably remember this. I don't, I have a bad memory. Like, I don't, I remember a show, but I don't remember anything. Like, people be saying, like, the lines to me of something that happened in a show. And I'm like, I don't know. But, sounds funny.

[00:52:36] Chuck: I don't know how I ever leveraged this in my career, and I've yet to be able to do it, but like, that is all the shit I remember. And then they're like, you know, I don't know, whatever. Reverse a binary tree. I don't know fucking thing about that. But I definitely remember it was like season eight, episode eight, uh, uh, Brad Pitt was on and they, he wore a sweater and a white collar that was pulled. I can give you a bunch of inane, useless information that has only made me good at trivia. Which also, what, gets me like a free beer or something at the end. Like, you don't

[00:53:09] Rizel: need that

[00:53:10] Chuck: shit But, uh, no you don't, no. I'm gonna go ahead and be the person here to advocate for avoiding this skill. Because it takes up brain space that probably would do me much more good in life. So, so no, don't do that. It's good you don't know these things. Ask your husband, see if he's as...

[00:53:30] Rizel: He'll remember it.

[00:53:31] Chuck: alright, fair enough.

[00:53:37] Robbie: All right. Let's see. Um, yeah, so I guess we're firmly into whatnot at this point. Um, how's your, uh, your moving going? How's buying a house been going for you?

[00:53:51] Rizel: I mean, the whole

[00:53:54] Chuck: not at home, so not well.

[00:53:56] Rizel: yeah. The whole process is an introduction to, To adulting. I thought I was adulting before, but I apparently wasn't. Like, after putting in the offer, there was a lot of push. I'm like, wow, this is, people did not tell me the details.

[00:54:15] Chuck: Hmm.

[00:54:16] Rizel: but yeah, I eventually moved in. It's a beautiful house. But I'm still waiting on a fridge, a dryer, and uh, internet, and cable.

[00:54:27] Chuck: Yeah.

[00:54:27] Rizel: I'm like off the grid.

[00:54:32] Chuck: It's crazy, the logistics of all of that. Yeah. It's like, um, I don't know, Robbie's bought like, four houses in the last month or something, I don't know. He's always moving, and always, he's very unhappy wherever he's at. Other than this parent's basement. Uh, so you're very

[00:54:50] Robbie: Well, we have no house right now, so.

[00:54:53] Rizel: Oh no. How do you do it? Or, have you ever bought a new construction home? Cause I, in my head, I was like, this is gonna be way less problems. But it didn't even come with, I didn't even realize, you need a pad, like what is it called? A pad thermal something? It's a green box that you need to like, connect your, your internet. And like, I invited the Xfinity people over, they came and they're like, you don't have the green box. And I didn't even know I needed that.

[00:55:23] Chuck: Right? Like they

[00:55:24] Robbie: Well, wouldn't they put that in?

[00:55:25] Chuck: out. That's what I would

[00:55:27] Robbie: Maybe not.

[00:55:28] Rizel: So it's supposed to be, I don't know that this, this is the thing. The sellers, they, it looked like a great house, but they did a lot of things like halfway. Um, so lesson learned.

[00:55:41] Chuck: I have not done a new build, but, uh, yeah. I'm sure there's always something.

[00:55:46] Rizel: Yeah.

[00:55:46] Robbie: Yeah, yeah, new or old. There's always like something that's not how you want it every time. It's there's no perfect house.

[00:55:56] Rizel: guess that's what I'm learning.

[00:55:58] Chuck: It's such a strange thing that they get you on the hook for the next, like, 30 years of your life, at least. And, it's a, it is, I don't know, in some ways it feels, like, slow and annoying, but then in other ways it feels really fast for that commitment. It's like, whatever, I dated my wife for five years before we got engaged, like, can I try this house out for a while? Thanks.

[00:56:23] Rizel: Oh my gosh, yeah. Could I try out houses? That would be great.

[00:56:26] Chuck: Yeah, I just want to try out a few and then eventually buy one. That could be like, ooh, there's a

[00:56:31] Rizel: A business.

[00:56:32] Chuck: Yes! It's like Airbnb, and then you can commit to buy it at the end. Oh, I like this.

[00:56:39] Rizel: I like that.

[00:56:40] Chuck: Mmm. Mm hmm. Maybe. Yeah. Well,

[00:56:43] Robbie: quitting our jobs right now. Yeah.

[00:56:45] Chuck: Podcast Royale, make sure you cut this out. This is our, uh, Fuglebinder.

[00:56:50] Robbie: to cut it out.

[00:56:52] Rizel: Yeah. But overall, I'm grateful. Like, I never had my own house, of course. And it's big, so.

[00:56:59] Chuck: That's cool. And then, you know, six months from now, you'll be like, Oh, all a distant memory.

[00:57:05] Rizel: Yeah, I'll forget.

[00:57:07] Robbie: Yeah, just getting internet will be like, I, I would be freaking out with no internet because the rest is fine. Like, you know, whatever, but I need internet.

[00:57:17] Rizel: Yeah, that's how I feel. I'm like, using my hotspot. Like, my hotspot's always this slow.

[00:57:24] Chuck: Yeah, they're crap.

[00:57:26] Robbie: Yeah.

[00:57:27] Chuck: Yeah, in my experience, hotspots aren't great. It's fine for, like, Slack or something. There was times, because the weather's really good here in Phoenix, so... I'm taking a laptop out to the park in November or whatever, and work through an afternoon off a hotspot, but, you know, then you're just... Getting Slack updates or something and code away for a bit, heads down, great. That's about it. I don't think it's great otherwise.

[00:57:52] Robbie: Yeah,

[00:57:53] Rizel: like I could take, I could write a blog post. But I can't really stream. I really want to stream.

[00:57:58] Chuck: Mm hmm. Yeah, If you need that, you need horsepower.

[00:58:03] Robbie: Yeah. All right. We are about at time here, I think. Um, before we end, is there anything we missed talking about or anything you want to plug?

[00:58:14] Rizel: Hmm. I mean. Follow me on Twitter, Black Girl Bites, or on any platform at Black Girl Bites. But nothing really I want to plug. I had a great time chatting with y'all. Thanks for having me. Thanks for being patient about the pushbacks. Um, but this was fun.

[00:58:29] Robbie: problem.

[00:58:29] Chuck: Yeah, definitely, and thanks for being persistent. I appreciate that. I think we should clarify, although I think most of us know, Bytes, B Y T E S.

[00:58:39] Rizel: B Y T E S. Not like, biting

[00:58:41] Chuck: she's not a vampire.

[00:58:42] Rizel: people. Yeah.

[00:58:44] Chuck: Huh.

[00:58:45] Robbie: Cool. Thanks everybody for listening. If you liked it, please subscribe. Leave us some ratings and reviews. We appreciate it. And we will catch you next time.

[00:58:53] Chuck: Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.