RobbieTheWagner 
Charles William Carpenter III 
Josh Cirre [00:00:00] Intro: Welcome to Syntax. Welcome to a brand new episode of the Front End Happy Hour podcast. Welcome to this week’s JS Party. Live from Ship Shape Studios, this is Whiskey Web and Whatnot. With your hosts, Robbie the Wagner, and me, Charles William Carpenter III. That’s right Charles. We drink whiskey and talk about web development.
[00:00:27] Intro: I mean, it’s all in the name. It’s not that deep. This is Whiskey Web and Whatnot. Do not adjust your set.
[00:00:36] Robbie Wagner: Hey, what’s up, everybody? This is Whiskey Web and Whatnot.
[00:00:40] Chuck Carpenter: Oh wait, that already happened.
[00:00:42] Robbie Wagner: Yes, that did already happen. You’ve heard the intro. This is still the show. We have a special guest today, Josh Cirre. What’s going on, Josh?
[00:00:49] Josh Cirre: Hey, I’m super excited to be here. Yeah, I have a, I’m a long time listener. First time caller of whiskey web and whatnot. So I was super excited, uh, to get the chance to be on [00:01:00] here.
[00:01:00] Robbie Wagner: Nice, nice. Yeah, we’re excited to have you. Can you give a few sentences about who you are and what you do?
[00:01:05] Josh Cirre: Yeah. Yeah. So my name’s Josh Siri. That’s how you pronounce my last name. I’ve heard all the. All the iPhone Siri jokes there are probably then some in some ways, uh, but I’m from Phoenix, Arizona, and I, uh, work, full time actually with the, uh, with the Laravel team. I’m a content creator, , and kind of YouTube, I guess I can be called now in some ways.
[00:01:26] Josh Cirre: Uh, but yeah, mostly I, uh, help out the Laravel team in creating content as well as, uh, some, open source stuff and, uh, customer support.
[00:01:36] Robbie Wagner: Cool, cool. And, yeah, we, uh, should jump into the whiskey, I guess. But before we do, your microphone is very nice and boomy. I’m just curious, what is it plugged into?
[00:01:48] Josh Cirre: It is plugged into, so sure, SM7B, uh, for those listening, and it is plugged into DBX286S, , which is like a preamp [00:02:00] slash compressor slash noise gate slash everything. So it’s all hard Hardware because I, before I used to have it, I’ll be software generated and I could like have my VST plugins and all that.
[00:02:11] Josh Cirre: sometimes the delay was terrible, , and so now I just can turn it on and not have to touch anything. So usually I don’t touch anything. It’s funny because I just got a comment or a bunch of comments this morning on a YouTube video about how I need to speak up and talk louder. , and they couldn’t hear me.
[00:02:28] Josh Cirre: So. I, I get the whole
[00:02:30] Robbie Wagner: sounds good to me. I don’t know. Yeah. All right. Well, what else sounds good? This, this thing I, I neglected to open it at all. So we’ll see how this goes, but I wanted to show off the box. The box looks cool. let’s see. You tell us about it while I’m opening it, Chuck.
[00:02:44] Chuck Carpenter: Okay, perfect. Uh, today we’re having the Crown Royal 18 year extra rare. I don’t know what makes it extra rare, but it is a blended whiskey. , so that means it is the youngest whiskey that is in here is 18 [00:03:00] years, so it could be some older stuff. We don’t know. Also means the mash bills could be mixed up, but the crown royal, , base mash bill is 64 percent corn, 31.
[00:03:09] Chuck Carpenter: 5 percent rye, and four and a half malted barley. So apparently it’s very, It’s very bourbon like, but because it’s not made in the United States, it can’t be called bourbon. , and it is 80 proof. So, not very hot, , but it is old as shit. Not my shit. My shit was very young this morning.
[00:03:30] Robbie Wagner: That’s, that’s how they describe you, right? Chuck? Not very hot, but is old as shit. Yeah.
[00:03:37] Josh Cirre: that could be a
[00:03:39] Chuck Carpenter: That’s about, yeah, I think that’s my two primary characteristics these days.
[00:03:43] Robbie Wagner: Alright Look at this here, let’s give it a sniffy sniff.
[00:03:46] Josh Cirre: It definitely smells like a bourbon, like more bourbon e than most whiskeys I had.
[00:03:52] Robbie Wagner: Yeah It does kind of like It doesn’t smell super smoky, but it’s very sweet smelling. I’m getting notes of Yeah. [00:04:00] Rubber basketballs. Little bit of pineapple. Just, just making shit up here. Um,
[00:04:08] Josh Cirre: I was gonna say like, maybe my nose is not working at all. I’m like, I, I smell like caramel stuff, uh, and that’s about it.
[00:04:16] Chuck Carpenter: Well, that’s not bad. I think that comes from the corn forward sweetness aspect of it. Let’s see here.
[00:04:23] Josh Cirre: Oh wow, that’s really, really
[00:04:25] Chuck Carpenter: I don’t know.
[00:04:26] Robbie Wagner: Yeah,
[00:04:26] Robbie Wagner: it’s very um, I think
[00:04:28] Robbie Wagner: cause it’s old
[00:04:29] Robbie Wagner: and, Oh does it? I think that’s just the season. That’s the uh, Christmas tree behind
[00:04:34] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah.
[00:04:35] Chuck Carpenter: It’s beginning to smell a lot like Christmas. Sorry, I didn’t know you were going to get singing on this when you agreed to it. I do think I’ve fixed my internet problem, so you are all welcome for that. I’m going to
[00:04:48] Josh Cirre: you look a lot more clear for my son.
[00:04:51] Chuck Carpenter: Oh, yeah. Now you can see the wrinkles.
[00:04:54] Chuck Carpenter: It’s, I’m sorry, it’s frightening. You’re still a little fuzzy.
[00:04:58] Chuck Carpenter: Did
[00:04:58] Robbie Wagner: to like, not [00:05:00] upload while you’re doing this or something? Are you able to pause your uploading? You know what I’m talking about?
[00:05:05] Robbie Wagner: I don’t know. Maybe I’m
[00:05:06] Chuck Carpenter: but that’s okay. I swapped the network. For the technical term for the, uh, or the layman’s term for the non technical, is I changed the Wi Fi network. Click the button and switch to the other one. The 2.
[00:05:21] Robbie Wagner: How is, how is swapping the network more like technical than changing the wifi?
[00:05:27] Chuck Carpenter: That’s why it’s funny. Anyway, I’m gonna drink this so I
[00:05:30] Robbie Wagner: do it. You won’t.
[00:05:31] Chuck Carpenter: through this interview.
[00:05:33] Chuck Carpenter: Not because of you Josh, you’re lovely. I mean Seth. There is something you mentioned while we have this. Ooh, yeah, it is, it’s sweet. , it has a little more, it has a little more burn than I would have expected, actually, from an 80 proofer. So, you know, I know it’s there. It’s not too, like, watery. I want something that forces me to sip it a little bit, so. yeah, not, not bad.
[00:05:58] Chuck Carpenter: It’s interesting. It’s a little bit of, like, [00:06:00] it’s got some sweetness in the beginning. It’s got a little bit of, like, Big Red Gum in there, flavor to me. And
[00:06:06] Robbie Wagner: not the soda this time.
[00:06:07] Chuck Carpenter: no, no, that’s why I said Big Red Gum. It exists, Robbie. I’m gonna send it to you. So, where I grew up, they had this soda. It was kind of like a red cream soda called Big Red.
[00:06:17] Josh Cirre: Big red.
[00:06:18] Chuck Carpenter: anyway, yeah. And then there’s Big Red the gum.
[00:06:21] Josh Cirre: of it.
[00:06:22] Chuck Carpenter: yeah, see? Robert. finish is mild, but the burn is there. I don’t know, but it’s not, it’s not
[00:06:28] Robbie Wagner: yeah, it tastes kind of like if you took crown royal and made it taste good, it kind of tastes like that to me. It’s like if you like normal crown royal is very, very sweet and young tasting. And I think like distilling it down for longer is like made it taste like it brings out the good parts. And it. I think, I don’t know, I’m, I’m pretty pleased with it,
[00:06:48] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, I have to say I’m
[00:06:49] Josh Cirre: I really like It tastes to me very like Vanilla pine caramel like
[00:06:55] Josh Cirre: that’s
[00:06:55] Chuck Carpenter: Mmm, vanilla. That’s it. I feel like I’m, yeah, that’s a [00:07:00] great point out. I was like, there’s some nuance, and light in the finish for me, and I think that’s more of the vanilla I get. oh yeah, yeah,
[00:07:08] Josh Cirre: cuz usually like with Robbie, what you said with like the, the crown Royal, but better the aftertaste, like the very, very end feels like that, but the beginning feels incredible. Completely
[00:07:19] Chuck Carpenter: very, very
[00:07:21] Robbie Wagner: Yeah.
[00:07:21] Chuck Carpenter: Well, uh, since you’re our only listener and you’re on the show, nobody is currently listening, so, but, just in case, later on somebody picks it up, I’m gonna, explain our highly technical rating system, 8 tentacles, 0 tentacles being fucking horrible, spit this out, , for middle of the road.
[00:07:42] Chuck Carpenter: And eight being amazing, clear the shelves. Also, maybe you’re rich because this isn’t cheap. and we categorize them. You don’t have to, you know. But, uh, we’ll let Robert go first. Robert
[00:07:54] Chuck Carpenter: the Bruce
[00:07:55] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, speaking of being rich, , I went into the ABC store to get this. They were [00:08:00] all dusty on top. And I went to buy it, and the guy goes, Oh, wow, I haven’t seen anyone ever buy one of these. I was like, alright, cool. , but anyway, , Yeah, this is pretty good. I don’t really know what category to put it in having not done any other Canadian whiskeys on the show or any other crown Royals.
[00:08:16] Robbie Wagner: I’ve had a lot of crown Royals, , but not on the show. I think in terms of like super sweet kind of bourbony, this is pretty good for me. I would give it honestly a seven and a half, I think.
[00:08:29] Chuck Carpenter: Wow, that’s, that’s, uh, that’s pretty good. Do you have, do you have feels, Josh?
[00:08:35] Josh Cirre: Yeah. I think so. I, I am very much a bourbon drinker or in the most part, like I, that’s usually my, my go to,
[00:08:42] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, I knew I liked you.
[00:08:43] Josh Cirre: especially, today. Yeah. So like that, that’s what I’m kind of comparing us. This is my first Canadian whiskey though. So not nothing to compare it to in that realm, but just solely on the smoothness without it, like having too much burn.
[00:08:58] Josh Cirre: So, cause I’m one of those that [00:09:00] like too much burn that I. This is nice. I can taste the flavor, but like, I don’t want to continually sip it. , and so this is, I would say this would be like a 7. 2 for me.
[00:09:11] Robbie Wagner: Hmm. nice. That’s, that’s very respectable. , yeah, so, I have had, , Crown Royal before. No other, other than like their standard issue. It’s been quite a while too, so I really can’t. I remember getting it when I was younger in college, and I thought it was so cool, because it comes in this nice bag. Which, this one, comes in a really nice
[00:09:33] Robbie Wagner: A nicer
[00:09:33] Robbie Wagner: bag.
[00:09:34] Robbie Wagner: Yeah,
[00:09:34] Chuck Carpenter: it’s a very, like, feels velvety. I don’t know if it is
[00:09:38] Chuck Carpenter: velvet,
[00:09:38] Robbie Wagner: Like you can make a couch outta this
[00:09:40] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, yeah, I would sit on this couch. this is, yeah, I don’t know if I could categorize it with any other Crown Royal or any other Canadian whiskey, and that’s perhaps something I should explore more.
[00:09:50] Chuck Carpenter: I’d always understood Canadian whiskeys to be more like rye’s, so learning that the mash bill of this was more like bourbon is Illuminating and maybe that’s something [00:10:00] to dig into more, but yeah as far as like a bourbon goes this isn’t too sweet But the sweet notes are nice, and they’re balanced out for me with like some of the spice and Just a very clean finish and a little hug without like making me like choke So I think it’s delicious.
[00:10:17] Chuck Carpenter: I plan to share it with friends It’s a little expensive, but it’s not crazy. I think it was like 130, give or take, something like that, for the bottle. So, if you’re looking to get something nice, I would say, yes, absolutely, pick this up. I think it outperf outpunches, uh, some other that are 100, 150, and even above that, that we’ve had.
[00:10:35] Chuck Carpenter: so, I, too, am more like a, yeah, 7. 50 for me. I don’t know what kind of grooving that is, but I do enjoy this whiskey. I would suggest it to others. I will share it with friends. make it a little special holiday thing. I would pick this over some other things, for sure.
[00:10:50] Robbie Wagner: I do wonder though, how do you think it would pair with Taco Bell
[00:10:53] Chuck Carpenter: I saw you put this comment in the show notes, and I want to know where this comes from, because I did do a little digging [00:11:00] on Josh, and I didn’t come up with anything around Taco Bell, so And we’re both in Phoenix, Arizona, so he should be ashamed of himself, if it’s what I think it is.
[00:11:08] Robbie Wagner: Is Taco Bell Mexican food?
[00:11:11] Josh Cirre: No,
[00:11:12] Josh Cirre: I love Taco Bell and I would say it’s not even Mexican food, but it is It is decent fast food budget.
[00:11:23] Chuck Carpenter: Mm hmm. Mm.
[00:11:26] Robbie Wagner: I think it is some of the best fast food, for sure.
[00:11:29] Josh Cirre: I also think like this could be a really hot take, but I think quality wise it is better than most like top rated fast food. So if you think like McDonald’s, Burger King, I don’t know, Wendy’s, I think talk about quality wise is probably better than those.
[00:11:46] Chuck Carpenter: I need to go to your Taco Bell because the one that’s near me is they still have the 90s decor. It’s not one that they’ve managed to like, do a remodel on. So it’s like that, and like, [00:12:00] just because I’ve taken my son there. once or twice, something like that. I think I read somewhere though that they invented the Crunchy Taco, right?
[00:12:08] Chuck Carpenter: Is it, I’m pretty sure it’s them. Taco Bell invented the Crunchy Taco. Taco Bell.
[00:12:12] Josh Cirre: I’m not 100 percent sure, but I believe I read something that That would sound familiar that there was very few people like making crunchy type tacos. And I was like, okay, Hey, let’s do this.
[00:12:23] Chuck Carpenter: And I know crunchy tacos are an American thing. Like, they were not. And pretty much are still not a thing in Mexico. But they have tostadas, like, just folded up. Like, what’s the difference?
[00:12:33] Josh Cirre: yeah,
[00:12:34] Robbie Wagner: yeah, they probably just took like a corn tortilla and were like, you know what? People hate when these get really like soggy and your finger goes through it or whatever. Let’s just bake them a really long time and see what happens. And they were like, oh, this works. Yeah.
[00:12:48] Chuck Carpenter: deep fry, and then like, hang them on a thing, and then basically
[00:12:51] Robbie Wagner: Oh,
[00:12:52] Chuck Carpenter: dries in that or something? I don’t remember. Something of that nature, but I feel like I’ve seen it once. That said, , I still think that’s a hot [00:13:00] take and strong statement around it’s the highest quality fast food.
[00:13:05] Josh Cirre: Maybe not highest quality, but top, top, uh, top five, I would say, like, if, if we’re talking about fast food, you can get an entree under, let’s say, a 12.
[00:13:15] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, yeah, you got to raise those standards these days. I do feel like fast
[00:13:19] Chuck Carpenter: food has gotten expensive.
[00:13:21] Robbie Wagner: Chick fil A is the number one quality wise,
[00:13:23] Chuck Carpenter: That’s true.
[00:13:24] Robbie Wagner: It’s not necessarily my favorite flavor. It doesn’t have enough chemicals in it to be yummy like Taco Bell does.
[00:13:30] Robbie Wagner: my
[00:13:31] Chuck Carpenter: And they haven’t managed to, like, squeeze in enough. fake cheese and whatever else in there.
[00:13:36] Josh Cirre: Yeah. See, Chick fil A, I would kind of put in almost in like the tier two. So there’s like tier one budget tier, McDonald’s, Burger King, Wendy’s, Taco
[00:13:44] Chuck Carpenter: And national,
[00:13:45] Chuck Carpenter: right? So,
[00:13:46] Josh Cirre: Out, maybe Whataburger you could kind of put in maybe that tier two.
[00:13:50] Chuck Carpenter: yeah, I was gonna say, cause In N Out’s quality, like it or not, you gotta say, like, the quality is just top notch, you know. And that’s what I
[00:13:56] Josh Cirre: you’re tasting a fresh burger.
[00:13:58] Chuck Carpenter: Absolutely, and the fries are [00:14:00] like, literally, you can watch them cutting them, it’s like, doesn’t get better than that, but, we could debate that all day long, cause I think, Robbie, you tried In N Out and you were like me.
[00:14:10] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah,
[00:14:13] Robbie Wagner: it being like so amazing. And I hadn’t, you know, I hadn’t tried it for the first, say 25 years of my life or whatever. And so I tried it after hearing about it forever. And I was like, this is a burger guys. Like, this is fine. I don’t dislike it, but it’s like, I’m not like, Oh my God, I should go to this all the time.
[00:14:30] Chuck Carpenter: yeah, I also feel like you’re not like a burger, like you’re not a fiend for burgers. Like, I love burgers. Like, if you were,
[00:14:37] Robbie Wagner: I would get five guys over in and out all day
[00:14:39] Josh Cirre: Interesting. Interesting.
[00:14:41] Chuck Carpenter: Five Guys, like, toppings and all of that stuff, great. I love their fries, because I like a greasy fry, actually. And so I prefer that with Five Guys. But, like, Five Guys plain, like, if you don’t get all the crap on the Five Guys burger, it’s fine. It’s alright, you know, but it’s just all this extra crap. And, fun fact, extra bacon, free. So you get a [00:15:00] single patty, extra bacon. Yeah, that’s the Five Guys hack. All the way, extra bacon.
[00:15:05] Robbie Wagner: What if you want 18 extra bacons? Is that
[00:15:09] Chuck Carpenter: No, just one order of extra bacon. That’s all you get. You, you ask the questions that you already know. But, I don’t
[00:15:17] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. Do we talk technology on this podcast? Should we do any of that?
[00:15:23] Chuck Carpenter: into what not in and out a whole bunch. But, uh, was React a mistake?
[00:15:31] Josh Cirre: Was react a mistake? I don’t think
[00:15:33] Chuck Carpenter: Wrong! No, I’m just kidding. Go ahead. Sorry.
[00:15:37] Josh Cirre: Immediate, immediate, like shut down. I think how people used react and then built on top of it as a mistake.
[00:15:44] Robbie Wagner: that’s fair. Nuanced answer. Yeah. Yeah, I talk about that all the time that like react on its own as the view rendering layer is fine Everything we’ve done since then is not fine [00:16:00] Yeah,
[00:16:00] Chuck Carpenter: with it when it first came out and I got to move over to like just this component is reactive and like made login just no refresh. You just get your new state. I love it. And, you know, state is just passing something else to that component.
[00:16:16] Chuck Carpenter: And it was, yeah, it was so the days of simplicity class components. miss
[00:16:21] Chuck Carpenter: them.
[00:16:21] Josh Cirre: think like where, it becomes. Mistakes or even just like where it becomes difficult to, adjust for things is like when you try to fit. Or try to solve problems with tools that weren’t meant to solve problems with. And so then you have like this rendering layer that you’re trying to say like, okay, like maybe we’ll just make this the server too.
[00:16:43] Josh Cirre: Or maybe we’ll just like, maybe we’ll have all of our like a data fetching in this component to it. So I think, I think that’s where like the mistake comes as a, like a rendering tool. I think like there’s, it’s still incredible. Like there’s, there’s, there’s nothing in terms of like ecosystem , [00:17:00] coming up against it right now.
[00:17:01] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, yeah. Well, that’s the other side. It’s like the rate of, that it’s been adopted at. It’s sort of like you can’t ignore it necessarily , in
[00:17:10] Josh Cirre: Oh, yeah,
[00:17:10] Chuck Carpenter: So,
[00:17:11] Robbie Wagner: yeah, unfortunately
[00:17:13] Robbie Wagner: something else that you can’t ignore tailwind or vanilla CSS
[00:17:17] Josh Cirre: I learned web development in a weird age or like, , just weird time or like, I, I learned a lot of really basics, but then when I got into actually building applications, like learning react, I learned vanilla CSS, but I feel like I couldn’t write vanilla CSS right now.
[00:17:33] Josh Cirre: Unless I would, I would search for like the tailwind term and then figure out how I’m supposed to write it. But that would probably have you, how I would have to write vanilla CSS. I still have a couple of projects that are, I forget like what’s the, it’s kind of like the, the pink nail as an icon. I forget what the react.
[00:17:50] Chuck Carpenter: sass.
[00:17:51] Josh Cirre: Not sass. it’s called like a motion CSS or,
[00:17:54] Robbie Wagner: I don’t know. There’s throwing stuff out.
[00:17:57] Josh Cirre: but it’s basically like you write CSS in line and your [00:18:00] components. So I have a couple of projects that, that use that. And like, every time I jumped to them, I’m like, ah, it’d be nice if I could just like. Write this on the component cuz I suck at naming. That’s why I don’t like vanilla
[00:18:11] Chuck Carpenter: that’s what I like about, yeah, that’s what I like about, Tailwind, is that it’s already figured that part out for me. I mean, I, I wrote vanilla CSS for like 10 years in various ideologies, and I don’t think I could go and write CSS anymore, because I just, the crutch that is Tailwind is like, it’s just so much
[00:18:30] Robbie Wagner: Mm hmm.
[00:18:32] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah.
[00:18:32] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. Like the grid stuff too. I, I have never written vanilla CSS grid stuff at all. Like I don’t need to remember what one FR is or what min max does or any of that. Like I can just be like grid grid calls three, like there’s my three columns.
[00:18:47] Robbie Wagner: Like,
[00:18:47] Chuck Carpenter: There. Done. Not float left, float left, float right. Clear. Clearfix. If you’ve ever written a class called Clearfix, that’s, that’s how you know you’re OG.
[00:18:57] Josh Cirre: the thing that I like about [00:19:00] tailwind is like especially when I was learning Web development, a lot of the stuff that I, couldn’t figure out or just like, it took a while for me to wrap my head around was the fact that, okay, I have all of these components now on the page, but now the CSS isn’t scoped the components like the whole scoping aspect was really weird.
[00:19:17] Josh Cirre: And that’s 1 of the things I like, I reached for like emotion, CSS and all that, because you could scope it to the react, but like the fact that. Then I would have to be like, okay, this is this naming ID for this component. And even though I had multiple components and I, they were still cards, but now this is card dash blank.
[00:19:34] Josh Cirre: And now I have to, you know, scope into that. And so I think with tailwind it, or the, one of the ways that I build a lot of my stuff is like, I just. I try to get like all of it working at once. And I feel like with CSS, it’s like, okay, like if vanilla CSS, a lot of times it might be like, okay, I’m writing the HTML and then I’m writing the react and then I’m writing vanilla CSS.
[00:19:55] Josh Cirre: And it’s kind of like compartmentalized.
[00:19:57] Robbie Wagner: Yep.
[00:19:58] Chuck Carpenter: well, we were taught that was the right way for a [00:20:00] while, right? Separation of concerns until not. And then who knows what the right way is really. It’s like in the moment, this is the right way. And then tomorrow that was all stupid.
[00:20:11] Josh Cirre: Oh yeah,
[00:20:11] Chuck Carpenter: So,
[00:20:12] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. Well, there is something that does have a right answer. Do you want to ask the next one, Chuck?
[00:20:16] Chuck Carpenter: okay.
[00:20:17] Josh Cirre: I’m scared.
[00:20:18] Chuck Carpenter: you, you should be get rebase or get merge.
[00:20:23] Josh Cirre: I’m going to say the answer based off of which one I use more.
[00:20:27] Josh Cirre: So Git Merge.
[00:20:29] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, I had a feeling. Cause. Am I right in assuming that maybe you have a lot of independent or small team projects? Versus large team projects? Yeah.
[00:20:39] Josh Cirre: So like most of the stuff that I’ve done personally has just been me as a solo developer. And then anything I’ve done like with a team is usually, , One or two people, even, even stuff on the Laravel team, most of the time I’m not pushing like too much code, but it’s only there. It’s a small team. I have never worked as a, I technically have never worked full time as a developer [00:21:00] in the sense I’ve done like a lot of support engineering type stuff or like solutions engineering type stuff, but I’ve never worked on a full time engineering team.
[00:21:08] Josh Cirre: And so I’ve never been with more than three people probably on a project.
[00:21:12] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, so you
[00:21:13] Chuck Carpenter: allude that you wouldn’t need to rebase a lot.
[00:21:16] Josh Cirre: Yep.
[00:21:17] Josh Cirre: Yeah. I’ve never had to think about, okay, Hey, here’s like 20 things being done. Usually it’s like, Hey, one person takes a feature. You just push a, you know, just get, do a new checkout branch and then you’re only on that until you push it in.
[00:21:30] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. And then at that point, once it gets merged, it could get like squash merged and then that all, all the weirdness goes away anyway. But, yeah, maybe that should have been the thing. Like, which of the three options on GitHub do you pick?
[00:21:42] Josh Cirre: Oh yeah.
[00:21:44] Robbie Wagner: that one is maybe more controversial. Yeah,
[00:21:48] Chuck Carpenter: exactly.
[00:21:49] Robbie Wagner: for next time. Yeah.
[00:21:50] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, yeah.
[00:21:51] Chuck Carpenter: But I do think that that’s often an artifact of what your working situation is, which is why, like, the right answer is always it depends. Like, yeah, rebase will [00:22:00] work in all of the scenarios, per se, but adds a lot of complexity and there’s a learning curve there. And is it necessary? No, being productive is necessary and things beyond that.
[00:22:09] Chuck Carpenter: But then, you know, if, uh, you’re not, uh, Following a large team and you do the other thing you do your thing well then you have 25 people mad at you because everybody’s using this thing and Now stuff got all crazy and weird and their own updates of their personal branch, you know Yeah, yada yada yada, but it is a fun one to ask
[00:22:30] Josh Cirre: That is one of those times. I mean, I’ve only had a couple of those scenarios when it’s like, okay, Hey, 30 plus people are, are, are pushing to a singular branch and everything like that. That’s one of those scenarios where like, this could be, a decent hot thing, but I don’t use a, a get like GUI or anything, but in those scenarios, it’s really helpful for me to like, see it visually be like, okay, Hey, here’s all like.
[00:22:51] Josh Cirre: The files that were changed and I can see it all. I don’t have to do like all these get diffs and all the things like that. , that’s the one time I usually reach for a [00:23:00] GUI.
[00:23:00] Chuck Carpenter: No. Yep. So otherwise you’re a real developer, you know, you don’t really depend on a GUI, right? That’s
[00:23:06] Josh Cirre: Yeah. Otherwise I, I, and I don’t even have, like, I, feel like I should have, but like, I don’t even have a aliases for like, get, add, get, commit, , get push. I just type it all out every
[00:23:17] Josh Cirre: single not that long. So like, yeah, the people that need it to be like two characters, like it’s not, it takes you like literally one more second, which I guess, Oh, well, if you add them all up over your whole life, it’s like, you know, I saved five minutes before I died,
[00:23:31] Chuck Carpenter: whatever. Uh, I, I have the aliases.
[00:23:35] Robbie Wagner: nothing wrong with them. I still don’t think they’re required.
[00:23:37] Robbie Wagner: Like
[00:23:38] Chuck Carpenter: they’re not required. Like, I have, like, one that I use all the time is get status. So, GS is, like, really fun and easy. , there’s some that I want to type out. Like, when I’m get pushing with, like, force with, you know, with lease.
[00:23:49] Chuck Carpenter: That kind of stuff. I want to type that out. I want to be very explicit in certain times, but I also haven’t messed with my aliases and probably at least 56 years [00:24:00] because I was years ago was like playing with dot files for a few years. Like Oh yeah, I want my setups on new computers to be super easy and that was nice.
[00:24:10] Chuck Carpenter: now I mostly just do the whole like, time machine backups become my new, you know, you just like, okay, great, like, set up from this backup. And then it’s so I never have to run top files anymore.
[00:24:21] Josh Cirre: I only have one alias that I use. Well, I guess I have a couple, like I have, uh, get undo alias that does like the whole, uh, revert, like last one and everything like that. learned this from like the Laravel ecosystem. , Taylor Otwell has this where it’s just a WIP like whip.
[00:24:40] Josh Cirre: And that does like a get at all get commit work in progress. Like this. So I’m like, okay, if I’m just starting out a project, I just type that. I don’t have to worry about those three commands, but that’s the only one I use. I don’t even use a lot of like Laravel folks use. Cause you have to type PHP artisan a lot for the CLI
[00:24:58] Josh Cirre: within Laravel.
[00:24:59] Josh Cirre: And a [00:25:00] lot of people use like PA or just like art for art, PHP artisan. still type it out fully. That might be one. Just it’s just ingrained into me that I’m like, I don’t feel like I need to shorten this.
[00:25:12] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah,
[00:25:13] Robbie Wagner: also depending on like I use warp and before that I used like the fish shell and like all of them autocomplete everything. So it doesn’t really I type a couple letters and just autocomplete so it doesn’t matter. So,
[00:25:25] Chuck Carpenter: true.
[00:25:26] Josh Cirre: That is
[00:25:26] Chuck Carpenter: is kind of nice.
[00:25:27] Chuck Carpenter: This episode is brought to you by warp dot dev. We’ll be sending them
[00:25:31] Chuck Carpenter: an
[00:25:31] Robbie Wagner: we’ll send you a bill. Yeah. Yes.
[00:25:41] Josh Cirre: keep it out of this.
[00:25:42] Chuck Carpenter: I mean, it doesn’t matter. But, , that said, this episode is brought to you by Laravel. Taylor, I would also like a Lambo. Or a Ferrari. Is that okay? Can I get a Ferrari? I know
[00:25:55] Chuck Carpenter: that They don’t
[00:25:56] Robbie Wagner: so no.
[00:25:57] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, but he’s not Italian. You know? Yeah.
[00:25:59] Josh Cirre: Yeah. He’s [00:26:00] he probably would, wouldn’t mind a Ferrari, honestly. Like, know him well enough to, to answer for him in that regard, but, uh,
[00:26:07] Chuck Carpenter: Right, right. You didn’t get invited to the basketball game. Or at least on the
[00:26:10] Chuck Carpenter: team. So that’s the
[00:26:12] Josh Cirre: I was, I was there on the sidelines and cheering people on, I was not on the court at all. Yeah.
[00:26:18] Chuck Carpenter: That’s fair, though.
[00:26:18] Josh Cirre: I wasn’t, I wasn’t good enough. Honestly.
[00:26:20] Josh Cirre: I’m
[00:26:21] Josh Cirre: I’m five, 10.
[00:26:24] Chuck Carpenter: Oh, what I’d
[00:26:24] Josh Cirre: I don’t think they had tryouts, but I think they had decided the team before I joined the, the company. I could be wrong on that. Maybe that was just to ease my own feelings,
[00:26:34] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, yeah, explain it all out. Why, why didn’t we ask Seth Rogen to play with us? Well, because he’s high as fuck all the time. So he should just make jokes on the side.
[00:26:43] Josh Cirre: ha ha.
[00:26:45] Chuck Carpenter: Throughout this, uh, we’re alluding to, and there was something on Twitter about it, but yeah, your resemblance, , to that Canadian master. , master ashtray maker, is what I understand, so.
[00:26:58] Josh Cirre: Yeah, I, I’ve said that [00:27:00] now I, because I like comedy so long. This is complete danger, but I used to almost want to be on part of SNL It’s like I I I understand and appreciate a lot of comedy But now I really want to try to get some Seth Rogen impressions going because now that would be maybe that’s my Next, you know full time gig like maybe I’m just a Seth Rogen impersonator and
[00:27:22] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. , you know, you should do some deep fakes do some deep fake videos and like, uh teach everyone how to code some stuff, but like in seth
[00:27:31] Robbie Wagner: rogan’s voice and
[00:27:32] Josh Cirre: voice that would
[00:27:33] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, that would be pretty good. I, I That would
[00:27:35] Josh Cirre: be, that. would
[00:27:36] Josh Cirre: be, that’s a good idea. I’m, I’m, I’m writing this down then.
[00:27:39] Robbie Wagner: Yeah
[00:27:40] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. That’s
[00:27:40] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, he may uh send you a cease and desist letter, but You We’ll
[00:27:44] Robbie Wagner: see
[00:27:44] Chuck Carpenter: We’ll see. We’ll see if he cares enough or notices or he is like, okay, there’s this guy in tech
[00:27:49] Chuck Carpenter: who’s, you know,
[00:27:50] Josh Cirre: and it’s just like an impression.
[00:27:53] Josh Cirre: Yeah,
[00:27:53] Robbie Wagner: that’s
[00:27:54] Chuck Carpenter: I think that’s okay. If you have like some sort of Yeah, there you go.
[00:27:59] Josh Cirre: only asks like when you [00:28:00] upload videos like if you’re trying to depict someone else like
[00:28:03] Josh Cirre: falsely so that I should be fine.
[00:28:06] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. I wouldn’t know. I don’t upload videos to YouTube. don’t know if
[00:28:10] Robbie Wagner: they have a lot of options.
[00:28:12] Chuck Carpenter: Okay, I was going to say, yeah, and so he clicks, he’s impatient. I was going to say, like, Robbie is the production team, , partially, and so some of that is happening. We have someone edit and work on some of it. Do you still upload them, Robbie?
[00:28:25] Chuck Carpenter: Yourself? Or
[00:28:27] Robbie Wagner: No, not anymore, but they don’t like add the tags or check all the boxes and stuff, so I like, I do some tweaking afterwards.
[00:28:35] Chuck Carpenter: you go back to OCD it a little bit. He needs medication, it’s okay.
[00:28:41] Chuck Carpenter: Alright, should we talk about some additional technical things? I mean, we’re like really getting into
[00:28:45] Robbie Wagner: probably. Yeah. I don’t know. You you go ahead,
[00:28:48] Chuck Carpenter: all day. Okay.
[00:28:50] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, we’ll skip the rest of the hot takes.
[00:28:53] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, fair enough.
[00:28:54] CTA: This just in! Whiskey.fund is now open for all your merch needs. [00:29:00] That’s right, Robbie. We’re hearing reports of hats, sweaters, and T-shirts, as well as a link to join our Discord server. What’s a Discord server? Just read the prompter, man. Hit subscribe. Leave us a review on your favorite podcast app and tell your friends about our broadcast. It really does help us reach more people and keeps the show growing. All right, back to your regularly scheduled programming.
[00:29:27] Chuck Carpenter: I did want to know who would win in an arm wrestling match. Guillermo Rauch or Taylor Otwell. That’s an easy one, come on. First of all, pick your boss.
[00:29:37] Josh Cirre: Yeah, so like Just on sheer height like I feel like arm length would definitely be longer I also think like Taylor’s pretty ripped. I don’t
[00:29:46] Josh Cirre: know if he works out personally, but he’s he’s lean
[00:29:50] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, yeah, yeah, he
[00:29:51] Josh Cirre: so out of a frame
[00:29:53] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, plus, you know, you’re trying to get that Christmas bonus.
[00:29:57] Chuck Carpenter: , okay, so as the self described [00:30:00] JS2PHP guy, tell us about the challenges you’ve had in making that transition.
[00:30:05] Josh Cirre: I would say the biggest Interesting part for me. It was like, I came from a JS world where it was similar to like that CSS stuff that we’re talking about. You, you kind of have everything in one file. I’m not very co location is important kind of thing. , so I very much like having, okay.
[00:30:24] Josh Cirre: Whether I’m using, was using like, Firebase or whatever have you at the time, I like being able to say, okay, hi, I have this component and in this one file or maybe folder or directory, I have all the things I need to know about that component. And so when I moved to, to Laravel, one of the things that was really interesting to kind of like think through is like, okay, now I have.
[00:30:47] Josh Cirre: So much separation. There’s like models and there’s views and then there’s controllers. And like, I didn’t like that at first and I still don’t like it. So now I, I use, uh, I [00:31:00] use this thing called live wire volt, which is basically a single file component that is server rendered. so I can write PHP functions in the top.
[00:31:10] Josh Cirre: It’s, it’s almost like. Old school PHP, where I can write server side functions, , that do it, something in the database or cache or whatever, have you and not have to write any controllers. And so now it’s just kind of like models and views in a lot of ways. So like that, that is. improved my developer experience a lot within PHP and within Laravel, because now I feel like I’m writing. What I’m used to within JavaScript of having everything, Hey, here’s everything in one file. I know what happens. You know, I know when I click this button, I don’t have to go look for an API route and then look in a controller to make sure I know how all this is being passed or being collected. Now I just look in one file and can just scroll up.
[00:31:51] Chuck Carpenter: nice. Although all of our back end listener, because there’s just one, it’s Lane Wagner and we pay him, he’s like, uh, about it, [00:32:00] so, But, I mean, if it’s working for you, I think that’s awesome.
[00:32:02]
[00:32:02] Josh Cirre: I was going to say that also comes down to like. , me also a lot of the projects that I do, whether that’s just demos or just like my own like personal stuff. Like, I know that that probably breaks down at bigger teams when you’re like, okay, now we have all of this stuff and like, you know, files are getting bigger.
[00:32:17] Josh Cirre: Like, I think that’s the nicety of the flexibility of a lot of PHP stuff, especially like when you have such a structured opinion framework, like Laravel, for example, JavaScript, even within like some of the meta frameworks, if something was to get too big, you don’t really have the option of like splitting it up and separation of concerns.
[00:32:35] Josh Cirre: You kind of have to do that all that manually, unless you’re rewriting a lot of it in some ways. and so I think like the flexibility of having that while also knowing like, okay, most of the things that I’m doing, I just want to, you know, Get something working and then I’ll revert it or, fix it up in the future.
[00:32:52] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, I am curious because I haven’t really done anything back in like at all aside from, [00:33:00] uh, you know, an API route here and there. is that kind of the norm? Because I think Rails also is like MVC based, like they have controllers and stuff. And like, Do all of the kind of like server first frameworks still stick to that sort of paradigm?
[00:33:13] Josh Cirre: I think, so, at least from what I’ve, what I’ve seen, like even, Phoenix with Elixir and, and Rails, and even like some of like the backside frameworks, Django, yeah, even some of the backside frameworks like Node within like, NestJS or like sales, they’re very much separation of concerns.
[00:33:30] Josh Cirre: And so I’ve always said that like, if there is something that’s Like if next JS or Astro, for example, wants to become the opinionated framework, Laravel batteries included rails, whatever, have you have JavaScript, it’s going to not be moving to MVC. It’s going to be like sticking with what people are used to writing in JavaScript now and just.
[00:33:50] Josh Cirre: Giving more stuff.
[00:33:52] Chuck Carpenter: yeah, I think that’s where next is going for sure and, giving more to a degree. The problem I always have is that, [00:34:00] like, to be considered a web application framework you should be able to Have a fully functional web application with just the framework itself. And so many of these miss, , login authentication aspects of it.
[00:34:14] Chuck Carpenter: , I think that’s huge. I think, like, things like mailers and webhooks and all of that are very necessary parts of web applications. You know, you could try to make an argument for or against, but for the most part, you know, Like that exists across the board, some sort of functionality, and as soon as you have to reach for other tools or services, then it’s no longer a really complete framework.
[00:34:36] Chuck Carpenter: Sure, it is a framework, but I’m not sure it’s a complete web application framework in my view.
[00:34:41] Josh Cirre: Yep. That, that itself was like what I was like frustrated too much about all the JavaScript frameworks that I liked. And like, I think to be fair, like, I think a lot of the services are really nice because you have all this like scaffolded out for you, but it’s the fact that it’s integrated really.
[00:34:57] Josh Cirre: Cleanly because it is first party associated. [00:35:00] So if you have like Rails or Laravel or even Phoenix with Elixir and stuff like that, you have this fact of like, okay, I have with usually the starter kit or like these, the first creation of it has all the scaffolded out. And when I started messing around with Rails and Laravel and, and Phoenix and ultimately like, chose Laravel mostly ‘cause the PHP , syntax looked more like JavaScript than.
[00:35:25] Josh Cirre: Uh, Elixir or Ruby to me. So I was like, Oh, this makes a little bit more sense. It was mind blowing to me that I could have a user sign up and then be able to like have information displayed from that user on the page, because if I was trying to do that in any other way, Framework, even with services, they’re still like, okay, now my service is separate from my database and I have to push that into my database.
[00:35:49] Josh Cirre: And now I have to display that on the page. And so like that, that really sold me as someone who didn’t come from the batteries included framework world. I’m like, Oh, this is [00:36:00] why did we not do this more?
[00:36:02] Chuck Carpenter: That’s a great question as things come around full circle, and I think that’s the
[00:36:06] Chuck Carpenter: question that’s being asked a lot. Yeah, go ahead. Money, marketing, what else?
[00:36:10] Robbie Wagner: because People like things that are hard and like solving hard engineering problems and feeling good about themselves. They don’t want to go Just spin it up for me. And then I like focus on, you know, the stuff that actually matters. They want to spend two years writing a bespoke react based framework and then go, wait, all this sucks.
[00:36:29] Robbie Wagner: And then redo it for two years. Like they like that part. They don’t like building the business logic. So that’s why we keep doing this.
[00:36:36] Chuck Carpenter: Right, and that’s why auth as a service becomes a thing, because either having auth done for you or doing a basic auth implementation, which could be simplified, is not enough of a challenge, per se, possibly, , conversely, the idea is like, oh yeah, well, you know, this is a solved problem, just use the thing, and But when it scales, and they’ll be like, oh, because if I [00:37:00] do it myself, it may not scale, and then I’ve got to come back to this problem.
[00:37:03] Chuck Carpenter: The irony is that, yeah, sure, that, Auth0 scales, Clerk scales, whatever. that’s all true, or I’ll assume it to be true. but it also gets really expensive, so what is worse? Like, you’re starting to scale, and you’ve got to put more engineering power into scaling the thing? Infrastructure wise or complexity.
[00:37:21] Chuck Carpenter: Why? Who knows? don’t know. But I think that’s like the gray area that becomes a big part of the question more recently. So and as I get older, I’m just like, get off my lawn. All the old stuff was fine.
[00:37:34] Josh Cirre: yeah, I think a lot of people like, I don’t know if it’s like human instinct, or maybe it’s just like where developers have kind of like like, it’s like that aspect of, okay, I don’t necessarily need this to be different. But what if I don’t want this to be opinionated? So I think a lot of people get turned off with, oh, yeah, Laravel, you really only have, There’s people who write plain CSS in Laravel, for example, but most of the time [00:38:00] 90 percent of people I would say are currently in modern level are probably writing Tailwind or, you have these opinions of, okay, you have a database connector, so you’re not, you’re not using a different ORM within Laravel.
[00:38:12] Josh Cirre: I think JavaScript developers or just developers in general, probably like the idea of having, okay, like, yes, it’s nice. I can use this, but what if I ever want to change in the future? you like having opinions, but you don’t want that. Locked in this kind of thing and you end up being more locked in in some ways.
[00:38:29] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, it’s actually what I started disliking about react apps at the time when I was Using react early on like 2014 when it came out and I loved it for its purposes and then you started making both ledge single page applications and it was like choose your own adventure. There’s like create react app and then you have to add a router and react router was big one or there was some other stuff.
[00:38:53] Chuck Carpenter: And then what’s your state management? It was this and now it’s this and whatever else, but you never really like. Change midstream. You don’t ever [00:39:00] like halfway through building an app. And then you said, Yeah, that that package sucks now. And I’m going to take it out and put in the new one. It’s just the next app that you wrote, you were like, Oh, well, I remember reading about this.
[00:39:12] Chuck Carpenter: And I want to try this one in here this time. And so that’s like the funny irony of the whole thing is you never change. And like midstream in the same project, like 99 percent of the time, I’m sure there’s times where you do. But like, yeah, You just change next time and the next time you have a list of options that you have to pick through instead of being productive.
[00:39:34] Chuck Carpenter: You have to learn the next, the other thing because you’re not doing what you did last time. And I think that is the power of these full fledged web application frameworks is that like, Oh, again, I’m doing what I did before. And that all just works. And you just, you know, Figure out the problems down the line as you go through.
[00:39:53] Chuck Carpenter: You don’t, no one decides halfway through. I, I want a different ORM, like good for you that you went Prisma to, to [00:40:00] drizzle. Why? If you started a new one and said drizzle, yeah, sure. Fine. Do your thing. But I also just don’t want to think about that stuff. Every project.
[00:40:09] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. I think the problem is though, when it’s too easy, you don’t get those little dopamine hits when you solve a problem. So if I’m just like using a generator to spin up a file that does what I need Sure, it works, but I could have spent a day with fun challenges, you know, like that’s I think that’s the problem and I To be you know to be perfectly clear.
[00:40:31] Robbie Wagner: I’m on the other side. I think opinionated frameworks are what you should use but like yeah, I think that’s what the problem we’ve fallen into and then also like Junior developers coming in don’t know about the opinionated frameworks. They hear about react So they spend a bunch of time learning that, and then they do whatever they can to get those, like, things working together instead of just starting with a full featured thing, and it just working.
[00:40:55] Robbie Wagner: I don’t know.
[00:40:56] Josh Cirre: it’s one of those things where you, you, feel like you’re [00:41:00] not maybe, and maybe like this is part of, , kind of like imposter syndrome or whatever you might call it. But I feel like if you don’t know how to do something and you’re just using whatever’s been given to you, most some developers and like I’ve, I’ve been in this camp too, where it’s like, okay.
[00:41:16] Josh Cirre: Am I that good of a developer that if I’m just using like these packages that are kind of given for me, like within Laravel, for example, like I would have, I have cache and I have, queues and, and all that kind of, and, and workers and jobs kind of set up for me where I can just be like, okay, I just want to set this in the cache I would have to find a package in JavaScript to do that.
[00:41:37] Josh Cirre: Then I probably feel more of accomplished developer if I’m like, okay, I can integrate this package as a JavaScript developer. I can put it all together. And now I know how this works because it’s a little bit more you know, nitty gritty to the bone kind of thing. And so maybe that’s part of it too.
[00:41:51] Josh Cirre: It’s like you like knowing that you, are good enough to maybe solve something, even if it or makes it harder for you in the long run. I personally [00:42:00] don’t care if I am like a lazy developer. I’m like, if
[00:42:03] Josh Cirre: I’m
[00:42:03] Josh Cirre: building a we are developers, right?
[00:42:06] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, code makes, makes us efficient. And if we’re learning, relearning the same patterns over and over again, we lose efficiency. , and if you want to know how the sausage is made, just read the source code, right? Like, get in there and understand more, become a contributor.
[00:42:22] Chuck Carpenter: I think you’re right. , and the problem with that to a degree can also be where, uh, Tech is so social now, where it didn’t used to be so social. So you, you know, you worked in a team and someone would be like, you know, read the fucking manual and figure it out.
[00:42:36] Chuck Carpenter: And then we all get on the same page and we just make stuff. now instead it’s sort of like developed by committee and you’re like, I picked this package and I made this thing and they’re like, dummy, why didn’t you pick this? It’s so much better. You don’t understand and I’m gonna make a video about it now and why you’re dumb and why this is better than this and that happens a lot.
[00:42:58] Chuck Carpenter: That happens a lot and it’s [00:43:00] like, okay, it’s fine. There’s space for that. But. Also, it’s a lot of noise, and it’s a lot of noise from people who aren’t making, and that’s okay. Like if your thing is to talk about all the possibilities in tech, that’s fine. You’re, that’s your space. You’re a creator there.
[00:43:14] Chuck Carpenter: But if you’re a developer trying to create stuff for business value, I mean, that’s a separate. Thing and you don’t need to worry about all those things. That’s why I think like lean into your choice. There’s a billion different ways to solve problems. That’s actually what I like about development and programming is that, you know, there’s not one right answer.
[00:43:32] Chuck Carpenter: mean, there’s not and there’s like, well, if you had done this six months ago, your problem wouldn’t exist. And maybe that’s true. But now here’s where I am. So now I have a different set of problems to solve. It doesn’t make the thing that I did at the time wrong. It just means yeah. Now I’ve got some different choices to figure that out.
[00:43:51] Chuck Carpenter: Who cares?
[00:43:52] Josh Cirre: That’s really interesting because yeah, I’m, I’m, I’m the same way. We’re like, I I’ve said it plenty of times before, like I don’t even really feel [00:44:00] like I know that much about like the syntax of PHP, even though I’ve been building in like Laravel applications and I work on the Laravel team for, like the past couple of years now that I’ve been building in it, but it’s just one of those things where.
[00:44:12] Josh Cirre: I don’t really have to either. Like there’s, there’s stuff I still keep up with. And I still like, no, okay. Like, that’s probably bad syntax. I’ll look at the docs, figure it out kind of thing. but I also like, I’m fine if like, I have that kind of like magic abstracted for me. I like, it’s more about to me, like what, what I’ve learned or just felt as a, What I’ve been growing as a developer is not when I know more syntax or know how to, or know more how to do more things from scratch and build it out, but more of like, okay, how would I find the answer if I was building this in a language that I don’t know anything about?
[00:44:50] Josh Cirre: I know that, okay, this is routing and I need to find out how I, how do I do caching in Phoenix or elixirs and like that? And I would know how to build that. that’s more of a accomplished. Or [00:45:00] accomplishment to me in my mind, I
[00:45:03] Robbie Wagner: developer is just about knowing how to find the answers. It’s not that, , we know how to solve everything with no internet from memory. It’s just the like, which is also some bullshit on a, uh, another tangent about like, you know, interviewing. That’s how they expect it to be whiteboard.
[00:45:18] Robbie Wagner: This do a sorting algorithm on the whiteboard real quick. Like why I’ll NPM install a sorting algorithm. Like I don’t need to anyway, sorry, a little bit of a rant there.
[00:45:27] Chuck Carpenter: Ugh, God, I hurt. Josh, are you looking for another gig? No, I’m just kidding. Yeah,
[00:45:34] Robbie Wagner: kind of related. I did want to ask you what advice you had for , aspiring content creators.
[00:45:41] Josh Cirre: think so. Like my, my content creation story is like really crazy in my mind, at least. Cause it’s one of those things where like, I, I had, I had done a lot of content for other, like for the companies that I was working at. A lot of it was more of like how to videos for customer support or very basic stuff.
[00:45:58] Josh Cirre: Not like super technical stuff, but I [00:46:00] always was kind of scared to do my own stuff. Cause I was like, eh every single thing I’m learning. Is from someone who I know is much smarter than I am. And their like their videos or their content or their articles or whatever are much better than I am.
[00:46:13] Josh Cirre: So it was always this kind of like, Hey, I don’t really have too much to give. And I think what kind of helped push me over that little hump and what I would kind of like encourage a lot of people is like, a lot of the times the stuff that has resonated the most with people is not stuff that I actually know A lot about like, I feel like, for example, I, I know more about live wire, which is Laravel’s HTMX type version. I know more about that than most people, but usually the stuff that resonates and stuff that I’m like, I learned an hour before making the video because I learned, I knew that I wanted to learn about this and then I’m, I’m teaching someone that’s one step behind me.
[00:46:54] Josh Cirre: And so I think a lot of the fear of putting out content is no one’s going to watch it because they already know [00:47:00] it, but at the same time, if you didn’t know it. Then there’s probably someone who else who doesn’t know it and a lot of times it comes through. , just maybe you say it differently that someone needed to hear than I would in a lot of ways.
[00:47:13] Josh Cirre: So I think that of knowing that being able to learn something really well, sometimes it’s best to learn it by actually teaching someone else. , or even just sharing how you learned it. and you don’t even have to know how to teach. It’s just, hey, this is what I learned. And then I figured out I had to do this.
[00:47:32] Josh Cirre: And then I learned that that didn’t work. So I figured out I had to do this. that combined with like actually doing it consistently over and over. I learned really quickly that I wanted to make videos that I didn’t have to spend too much time, like, forcing myself to, I always like to make things perfect and I was like, for some of my videos, like, at the start, I was like, I’m going to edit this until like, it looks perfect.
[00:47:56] Josh Cirre: I’m going to have like, sound effects and like, you know, like little animations [00:48:00] Then it was a video that I was like recorded on my iPhone. They got the first a hundred K views and all this, like, it doesn’t really matter too much about that. So find ways so that you can get the quality that you want.
[00:48:13] Josh Cirre: I’m not saying sacrifice quality or excellence or anything like that, but find ways so that you can like press record and be like, I have this video done in like an hour. Or two hours or whatever that time limit is. And then I can do that at least once a week, or at least twice a week, or at least whatever that time time limit is.
[00:48:32] Josh Cirre: you make it too hard, where you’re like, you want to make content, but then all of a sudden you get annoyed or frustrated or just overwhelmed because it takes you three weeks plus to put out a video, then you’re probably doing. It the wrong way in a lot of ways, or at least you should start with doing that.
[00:48:48] Josh Cirre: And then you can do more stuff like that down the line.
[00:48:52] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. FailFast. Just do it, FailFast.
[00:48:55] Robbie Wagner: I think like making sure like start with streaming, like you don’t have to be that [00:49:00] entertaining streaming. I know I personally am not, but like, , the fact that you’re streaming it and recording it live. some people have already seen it so you could just ship it in that form versus like needing to be like Oh, it needs to be 100 perfect.
[00:49:14] Robbie Wagner: Like when I edit it later so yeah, like just getting content out there is half the battle for sure because yeah, you’re right like Nobody knows the correct formula for like what is going to resonate with everyone on every single video I mean, there’s some people that do really well, but like you know half the time it’s just mostly luck and it’s like a topic that happened to You You know, be important that day.
[00:49:34] Robbie Wagner: And so a lot of people watch it or whatever, like, you know, so just put out stuff that you want to put out and are passionate about. I think that is important. Like if you are making, you know, stupid videos that you don’t like yourself with like stuff that you don’t care about, that’s going to kind of come through and like how you deliver it, that you aren’t enjoying it.
[00:49:53] Chuck Carpenter: can I just put out stupid looking, , placeholder images?
[00:49:57] Robbie Wagner: Yes, you can’t. And
[00:49:59] Chuck Carpenter: just do that? That’s [00:50:00] all, no
[00:50:00] Robbie Wagner: the video,
[00:50:00] Robbie Wagner: is just you.
[00:50:02] Josh Cirre: just you
[00:50:02] Robbie Wagner: stop motion, you just
[00:50:04] Josh Cirre: Yeah.
[00:50:04] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, it’s just me, I’m gonna live stream just this.
[00:50:08] Robbie Wagner: How long can you stay in that? Yeah.
[00:50:10] Josh Cirre: yeah, there’s, there’s probably some audience for that too. They’re
[00:50:13] Josh Cirre: like, yeah, there’s, there’s an audience audience for everything.
[00:50:18] Josh Cirre: I like that take because I think like, It’s, it’s one of those things where and maybe this is the wrong way to think about it, but I, I personally think that if you’re not watching the same kind of content that you’re trying to create, even if you wouldn’t, yes, I think you should like make content that you would probably want to watch or consume in some way, you’re like, Oh, I, I, sometimes like this might be like a super like, uh, I forget the word, like I’m narcissistic, but like, I sometimes watch back some of my videos that I haven’t watched that was like three months ago, six months ago.
[00:50:46] Josh Cirre: I’m like, Oh, that’s actually pretty good. I learned something again. Like, I’m like, No,
[00:50:50] Josh Cirre: that turned
[00:50:50] Chuck Carpenter: me,
[00:50:51] Chuck Carpenter: it was almost like a video note. Yeah, that’s
[00:50:54] Josh Cirre: Yeah, like I’m like, Oh, that was, uh, that was a lot better than I thought it was. , and I think like I watched so much YouTube, [00:51:00] for example, that I know what kind of YouTube videos I want to make.
[00:51:04] Josh Cirre: And I think if you’re not Whatever medium you’re in, whether that’s streaming or YouTube or articles like that, you’re writing, if you’re not consuming that same kind of content, then you’re not going to do it with yours too. And you’re not gonna be able to make those small steps to improve and learn because you’re not like, okay, I’m, I’m never going to watch or read my own article other than when I’m proofreading it.
[00:51:26] Josh Cirre: Well, then our next article probably isn’t going to be better.
[00:51:28] Chuck Carpenter: I think that is a great point and worth reiterating that a if you want to create content make sure you’re You’re watching like you’re emulating the kind of content you enjoy to some degree. And I didn’t listen to this podcast for at least the first year that we did it. I was just like, I don’t want to hear my own voice.
[00:51:47] Chuck Carpenter: I’m good. We had fun. I’m out. And then I found that over time to be a mistake in the sense of like, I want to go back and see if perception and reality were aligned. And if they weren’t, [00:52:00] oftentimes not. where that mismatch was and then just kind of take a mental note of that because again, listening to other podcasts, tech and non tech, there were things that I enjoyed there that I wanted to integrate and I wanted to feel, I wanted to know whether I had done so in the way I intended or if I needed to think about it in another context.
[00:52:20] Chuck Carpenter: Oh,
[00:52:20] Robbie Wagner: Cool. Well, we are at time and I think your mic is messed up again. Possibly try to say something and we’ll see.
[00:52:28] Josh Cirre: Testing. 1, 2, 3. Hey everyone. Hey.
[00:52:30] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, it’s messed up. So I’m going to say I’m just going to play you out with with my voice. This is Josh Siri. Everyone check out Laravel. It’s a cool framework for PHP. He does cool videos that you can find on YouTube. I don’t know. You can let us know some other things to put in the show notes because we don’t want to do the whole fixing thing right now.
[00:52:49] Robbie Wagner: But
[00:52:49] Chuck Carpenter: and this episode is brought by, Laravel and Taylor Otwell will send us Lambos.
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