Whiskey Web and Whatnot

A whiskey fueled fireside chat with your favorite web developers.


139: From AI Deep Dives to Giblets and Fig Wasps with Ken Wheeler

Show Notes

This episode features a unique blend of discussions and narratives, weaving together spirited debates on technology and AI's impact on society and creativity, personal stories of whiskey appreciation, and a humorous recount of an epic day drinking adventure gone awry.

Hosts Robbie Redundant, Charles Codes No More, and guest Ken Wheeler explore the intersections of tech and life, delving into topics like job automation, the future of software development, and the essence of human creativity in the age of AI.

Meanwhile, a tale of misadventure highlights the lighter, more unpredictable side of tech gatherings, replete with plans gone awry, late-night escapades, and the importance of connecting with friends and family amidst the chaos of professional life.

This spirited dialogue captures the essence of navigating the modern world's complexities with humor, insight, and a healthy dose of alcohol-induced wisdom.

Key Takeaways

  • [00:24] - Introducing Special Guest: Ken Wheeler
  • [00:51] - Diving Into the World of Orphan Barrel Whiskeys
  • [01:47] - The Unique Charm of Orphan Barrel Selections
  • [09:11] - Tasting Notes and Whiskey Rating System
  • [14:43] - From EmberJS to Whiskey Marketing Dreams
  • [15:03] - The Evolution of Web Development and Frameworks
  • [30:05] - Gaming: From VR Experiences to GTA Realities
  • [35:22] - The Therapeutic World of Power Washing
  • [37:48] - The Future of Jobs in the Age of AI
  • [38:17] - Debating the Future of Work and AI's Impact
  • [39:22] - The Fight Club Analogy: Resetting the System
  • [39:51] - The Trade-Offs of Modern Convenience vs. AI Dominance
  • [40:53] - Survival Skills and the Human Condition
  • [41:29] - The Evolutionary Quirks of Humanity
  • [42:43] - The Predicament of Natural Selection and Human Survival
  • [44:14] - The Vegan Lifestyle: A Modern Luxury
  • [45:18] - Exploring Dietary Choices and Sustainability
  • [47:52] - The Complexities of Preparing and Consuming Food
  • [55:18] - The Future of AI and Its Societal Impacts
  • [01:04:00] - The Pursuit of Happiness in Modern Society
  • [01:07:00] - Closing Thoughts and Future Plans


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139 Ken

[00:00:05] Robbie: What's going on, everybody? Welcome to another edition of your favorite podcast. AI stole my job, but not my whiskey with your hosts, Robbie Redundant and Charles Codes No More.

[00:00:15] Robbie: Yeah, no, I, I'm now AI I just introduced bugs to your code, code base.

[00:00:21] Robbie: Nice.

[00:00:23] Chuck: So like the real one,

[00:00:24] Robbie: Yeah, we do have a real special guest with us today, though. Ken Wheeler. What's going on, Ken?

[00:00:30] Chuck: be careful. You're going to give this guy an ego.

[00:00:33] Ken: Don't you dare.

[00:00:36] Robbie: Yeah.

[00:00:37] Robbie: I would say introduce yourself, but I feel like everyone has heard of you. But if you want, you

[00:00:43] Robbie: know, give a the show before, so if they watch it, they're familiar, so

[00:00:47] Chuck: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:00:48] Robbie: Yeah.

[00:00:49] Ken: Hey everybody, welcome back.

[00:00:50] Robbie: Yeah. Part two of drinking with Ken. So what are we drinking today, Chuck?

[00:00:55] Chuck: Oh, yes, I guess I should do that. What are we drinking? [00:01:00] It's an Orphan Barrel. Sorry, I need one second to look this up. Hadn't memorized it. Orphan Barrel, and I w I will explain that in a moment. Orphan Barrel, The barrel used

[00:01:09] Robbie: to have parents.

[00:01:10] Chuck: Alright, I'm gonna try this the third time. Orphaned Barrel, Castle's Curse, Single Malt, Scotch Whiskey, Aged 14 years 94.

[00:01:21] Chuck: 8 proof, has a mash bill of a course, 100 percent malted barley, and the only other info I could get was matured in European oak barrels. So, Hmm. that. I

[00:01:32] Ken: in European oak barrels

[00:01:34] Chuck: Yes, also, yes, you're like a fine wine. Many, your apartment smells of rich mahogany.

[00:01:41] Chuck: Yes. Yeah, exactly. I have many leather bound books. I don't read them.

[00:01:47] Chuck: Anyway, so the earthen barrel thing is a thing that, Diablo Spirits is the, like, conglomerate overall, and it's a whole thing where they were going and finding, like, these, [00:02:00] kind of forgotten barrels, but there really wasn't enough of them to, like, do a whole Run of them, and they were like, well that's okay, say there's only, I don't know, 10 or 12 or something of this, we'll do like a real short run, we'll do some cool marketing around it, and put them out there.

[00:02:17] Chuck: And they were doing like some over aged bourbon, they've done all kinds of like random whis like all kinds of different whiskeys. So it's a like, we're gonna do this one time, it's one shot, we can't produce more, cause we've found these stashes all over the world.

[00:02:30] Ken: So if I end up liking this

[00:02:31] Chuck: Yes. Buy all you can.

[00:02:33] Robbie: Yeah. Cause it'll, it'll go away.


[00:02:36] Ken: Wow.

[00:02:37] Chuck: Yeah, so it's kind of the fun thing of it.

[00:02:40] Chuck: The label which I don't have in front in front of me is very interesting. It's like some kind of like aquatic looking ghost horse Castle's cursed of the ghost horse, but it also looked a little

[00:02:51] Chuck: like Coming out of the waves. Yeah

[00:02:56] Ken: Yeah it

[00:02:56] Chuck: episode Yeah, yeah, we sent [00:03:00] you Wait we sent you that and this episode is brought to you by kensbagadix.

[00:03:06] Chuck: com No, I didn't send you Bag of Dicks, but,

[00:03:08] Chuck: anyway. didn't get the bag of

[00:03:10] Chuck: No, no. I can't wait to someday surprise you with them though, and hear about it.

[00:03:14] Ken: Yeah. No, I'll fucking eat the entire bag.

[00:03:18] Chuck: On camera. That's right,

[00:03:21] Ken: indivi one at a time.

[00:03:22] Chuck: Yeah. Black. Current and Bergamot. Can anybody even really describe Bergamot?

[00:03:32] Ken: Yeah, fuckin orange. But like, fancy orange.

[00:03:36] Chuck: Hmm. I've always thought of

[00:03:38] Chuck: it as like, I don't know. No, no, I think that's, I think that's very good. Yeah, Okay, fair enough. See, called, called out and shown the door.

[00:03:47] Ken: smell like?

[00:03:48] Chuck: vanilla though. I'm a simple man. Vanilla it is. Almost like those chocolate oranges. I smell a little of

[00:03:59] Ken: Yeah.

[00:03:59] Robbie: [00:04:00] Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm.

[00:04:03] Chuck: Hmm.

[00:04:06] Chuck: Ooh! stingy.

[00:04:08] Chuck: Whoa, yeah. Yeah,

[00:04:11] Ken: what did you say that meant again? I remember you told me last time.

[00:04:13] Chuck: I don't know. Like, You were like shitting on

[00:04:18] Ken: Woodford. Or Makers.

[00:04:21] Ken: You said

[00:04:22] Ken: that like the, it's like higher alcohol content, or it's like some shit like that.

[00:04:27] Chuck: mean, that's part of it. The proofing is a little bit of it, and sometimes it can really, like, tingle you, just based on, like you know, how woody it comes out, or how much of the wood and kind of spiciness it gets. Like, burn is alcohol to a degree, but then I don't know what I was shitting on. I was probably making it up, Ken.

[00:04:47] Chuck: You realize, like, here I am now, I'm busting on two things. You know what bergamot is, and you call me out on my bullshit. I can't repeat it.

[00:04:54] Ken: It's almost peppery

[00:04:55] Chuck: Yeah. There's something in this spice. That's not pure like [00:05:00] alcohol heat.

[00:05:01] Chuck: mm. Yeah. Mm mm. Yeah, I'm getting, like, a bit of liquid smoke with the finish, too. Like, very smoky. But, like, in a concentrated way. Yeah, I can't believe I'm still getting those tingles on the front. Yeah, I can't

[00:05:17] Ken: I also have an adjacent bias from a cool mint zin so

[00:05:21] Robbie: Yeah.

[00:05:22] Chuck: You might be getting some extra burn out of that. Some flavor notes we're unfamiliar with. That's Yeah, I'm gonna say, ooh, okay. All right, a little bit, a small bit in the beginning, that's like a Worcestershire sauce.

[00:05:40] Ken: Wooster sauce

[00:05:42] Chuck: yeah.

[00:05:43] Chuck: Worcestershire,

[00:05:45] Chuck: as we say in Freedom Land. But it's Wooster. You know, that's a town in England and they pronounce it Wooster.

[00:05:52] Ken: Isn't that how they pronounce the shit in Massachusetts as well

[00:05:56] Chuck: is that In

[00:05:57] Chuck: England? It is. Mm-Hmm?

[00:05:58] Ken: Yeah,

[00:05:59] Ken: they're [00:06:00] like Worcester and what's the other one? It's um Uh, well there's the one that's like Woburn, but it's like Wubba. There's a couple of them, where like, yeah,

[00:06:12] Chuck: just skipped a lot of syllables. Yeah, you just skipped like whole syllables

[00:06:17] Chuck: out of wrong with this guy? Yeah, it's fucking

[00:06:20] Chuck: Wooster there, Gloucester. I don't know.

[00:06:24] Ken: one that's like, it's like, it's like Gloucester, and it's like, it's like Gloucester? No, it's Gloucester, but it's Gloucester. Gloucester. If you were to just read it and like think you can pronounce English things

[00:06:35] Chuck: There's a cheese, a Gloucester cheese, actually. It's quite good. Gloucester is like an overarching kind of like stinky cheese, but it looks more like cheddar. And there's a specific one that is Cotswolds. really good.

[00:06:53] Ken: Do you eat cheese with drinks?

[00:06:57] Chuck: I would, yeah. I like [00:07:00] cheese. I'll eat cheese with or without drinks. But I, I like a pairing. If you tried to pair cheese and whiskies, I think that would be fun. I've done it with Yeah, before.

[00:07:10] Robbie: I have a a hot take for you. Well, kind of hot, like what's the difference in yellow cheddar and white cheddar?

[00:07:20] Ken: You know or you're

[00:07:22] Robbie: No, I don't, I, this is a discussion because cheddar is dyed artificially yellow. So his white cheddar just without the dye. And they're the exact same flavor. for watching.

[00:07:32] Chuck: I would think. I mean, is that like enzymatic Yeah. Oh,

[00:07:37] Ken: Like what makes what makes gouda Yellow

[00:07:41] Robbie: Well some

[00:07:42] Robbie: cheeses are naturally yellow. And I know the science behind this because cheddar used to be naturally yellow when they used like high quality creams and they started taking all the fat out to make like butter and cream and like other stuff and then using like shittier milk and so they just dyed it back yellow so that it would

[00:07:59] Robbie: like [00:08:00] we're not even getting the original yellow

[00:08:01] Robbie: No.

[00:08:02] Chuck: Yeah. Did you guys ever see

[00:08:04] Ken: like what food used to be back in the day like how like corn was like literally shit and it sucked and Like carrots looked all ratchet

[00:08:12] Ken: Do you

[00:08:13] Robbie: Yeah, we've

[00:08:14] Robbie: changed it a lot.

[00:08:15] Ken: fuck dude like

[00:08:16] Robbie: Yeah.

[00:08:19] Chuck: changed it? Is it like genetic

[00:08:21] Ken: selective breeding and yeah GMO, I don't think it's really GMO I think a lot of like selective breeding shit gets like put on GMO and actually it's like

[00:08:30] Chuck: Yeah, and to a You just grow the one that grows

[00:08:34] Ken: It's fucking unbelievable, if you're like, if you got like 100 year plans here, The kind of shit that you can do, like, Like, I look at my dog, right, it's a French Bulldog, And I'm like, I can't fucking believe you

[00:08:45] Ken: used to be a wolf.

[00:08:46] Chuck: ha ha ha

[00:08:48] Ken: And like, yeah. Frenchies would die in the wild. You can't even, they don't

[00:08:52] Ken: They

[00:08:52] Ken: almost die regularly,

[00:08:53] Ken: they're like, Brassiophilic, and like,

[00:08:54] Ken: fucking like, heavily, yeah, it's

[00:08:56] Chuck: Yeah, they're those like luxury dogs that were kept alive [00:09:00] by, you know, generations of aristocrats or

[00:09:02] Ken: Yeah, they like, sat on pillows and shit, and they like, fucking,

[00:09:05] Chuck: Yeah, and snorted gracefully. Hey, they got the real yellow cheese. Alright, hold on, let's regress a little bit and come back to our whiskey friend here, just to go through the motions on rating.

[00:09:20] Chuck: I mean, can you, you, you are an avid listener. You probably know the rating by heart, the rating system by heart. But, I'll go ahead and take it for you. Zero to, yeah, zero to eight tentacles, zero because we're all former software engineers and zero being horrible. You just, you probably would have spit this out for middle of the road with your other whiskeys and eight amazing.

[00:09:46] Chuck: I must have more, but only as much as they produced. And of course I won't put the onus on you as the guest to go first. So I will do that to my gracious

[00:09:56] Chuck: host. last time?

[00:09:57] Chuck: Well, that's because Robbie's a jerk. He made you go first, but I'm [00:10:00] nice. I'm gonna, I'm gonna make him go first, you see. Okay,

[00:10:06] Robbie: oh man, I don't love scotch we all know that but This one is not terrible I would drink it It is nowhere near as good as the muckety muck, but that one is much more expensive. It's like a what 26 years old or something

[00:10:23] Chuck: yeah.

[00:10:24] Robbie: This one feels like way younger than it says it is like 14 is what they advertise, but I think that like I've had a Four year old american whiskey that tastes more aged than this Hmm. which might be on purpose.

[00:10:38] Robbie: I don't know. Anyway, all that to say not super impressed for the price point So i'm gonna give it a five

[00:10:43] Chuck: Hmm. I don't even know how much it cost. How much was this

[00:10:46] Chuck: one? 100 150 something like

[00:10:48] Chuck: 150? Okay, yeah.

[00:10:50] Robbie: Yeah, you're welcome

[00:10:52] Robbie: Yeah,

[00:10:57] Chuck: Passing shots around. It'll be, it'll be fine. [00:11:00] Yeah, it is. All right. Yeah, I feel like you have opinions on the back of that though, Ken, and I will let you go next if you'd like.

[00:11:08] Ken: Opinions on the back of what?

[00:11:10] Chuck: Oh, sorry, the

[00:11:11] Chuck: whiskey. No.

[00:11:12] Ken: Oh, so we were just talking, we were talking about Miami and you said,

[00:11:15] Chuck: yeah, I

[00:11:17] Ken: I was like, I have a fucking opinion on Miami. Miami's

[00:11:19] Ken: awesome. yes.

[00:11:20] Ken: So this whiskey, I like a lot. I think it's very tasty. I, I guess in my experience, the fancier shit burns kind of like this.

[00:11:34] Ken: So it feels fancy. I don't know anything about it. So a lot of the time, I feel like there's like undue brand influence on my appreciation of substances. So like that knocks it down just a peg, just cause I don't know. I never, I don't know what it is, but in the same sense, it tastes like the shit that I've had.

[00:11:51] Ken: That's good. I am a general fan of all alcohol. [00:12:00] Usually in this, in the scotch realm, I usually go much peatier,

[00:12:09] Chuck: Hmm.

[00:12:10] Ken: but in recent times I've actually backed off of that and shifted almost completely to bourbon. But this is lovely. I'll give it a, I'll give it a six and a half.

[00:12:22] Chuck: Nice. Yeah, I think that's very respectable. Yeah, in the realm of Scotch Whiskey, which is incredibly diverse. So it is even hard sometimes to compare one to the other when you have more, like, Highland versus an Islay, whatever,

[00:12:40] Chuck: however they say to eight, right?

[00:12:41] Chuck: Yeah, zero to eight. Yeah, yeah, that's good. It it would be an 8.

[00:12:46] Chuck: exactly. I'm not saying there's logic here.

[00:12:50] Chuck: I don't, you know, yeah, you know, it just it started it It's all it's all just it's all kind of a long Winded joke anyway, [00:13:00] so it's just

[00:13:01] Chuck: yeah go with it Yeah Here's what I think. I think in the realm of scotch whiskey. This is a very interesting whiskey It's hard for me to compare it from one to another per se like You a scotch as a whole.

[00:13:17] Chuck: Let's say something that is smokier. I actually really kind of if I'm going to get into a scotch I either want it to be just very clean tasting like a lot of like Japanese scotch style whiskeys or a bit smoky like but don't blow me away with that smoke. So I think this is interesting that it has some of these like diverse initial flavors and then finishes with the smoke to kind of remind me that it is scotch but it doesn't like hang out for too long.

[00:13:45] Chuck: To Robby's point around it being younger for a Scotch, yeah. Cause like, Scotch, since they're in used barrels, like, 14 years is basically like a 4 to 6 year old bourbon. You know, as far as like really, but it's got some decent color in there. [00:14:00] And I think it tastes very interesting. The smell, the taste, the whatever else, like, it, it I think I'm going to give it a solid six, I mean, I, I, yeah, I like, I enjoy it, I definitely would have some more, I would tell someone who likes scotch to like, give it a shot, and I wouldn't clear the shelves,

[00:14:17] Ken: I'm gonna go ahead and revise mine up to a 7, because I was just reading on here that it's actually a Highland Scotch. I had knocked off a half point, because I thought it was an American Scotch.

[00:14:28] Chuck: oh no, yeah, it can't be called scotch, it's just an American company that sources imports the, Scotch.

[00:14:34] Robbie: Yeah, they do all the marketing, you know, it's I'll take

[00:14:37] Robbie: that job, go around to distilleries, find old cool barrels and re bottle them. Sounds cool as shit.

[00:14:43] Chuck: yeah,

[00:14:43] Chuck: I, I don't know, marketing.

[00:14:45] Chuck: I think, yeah, I think that working in EmberJS to that job is a very natural jump as, like, your I think so too.

[00:14:53] Chuck: Yeah,

[00:14:54] Robbie: my

[00:14:54] Chuck: you've,

[00:14:55] Robbie: as is, and they'd probably hire

[00:14:56] Chuck: yeah,

[00:14:58] Chuck: [00:15:00] yeah,

[00:15:00] Ken: Both of you?

[00:15:01] Chuck: no,

[00:15:03] Ken: How long have you been working in Ember?

[00:15:04] Robbie: Since Wow.

[00:15:07] Ken: You know, I'll tell you what. I haven't met someone who like, genuinely uses Ember and doesn't love it.

[00:15:14] Robbie: Yeah.

[00:15:16] Ken: I've played with it. I've talked to the fellas about it extensively. Didn't it, wasn't it like an offshoot of something? Like like

[00:15:30] Ken: SproutCore initially, yeah.

[00:15:32] Chuck: from Apple talked

[00:15:34] Ken: to Yehuda a lot about, like, web platform optimizations that could be made to unfuck some of the current problems, none of which manifested into the bullshit you see today out there.

[00:15:45] Chuck: Yeah.

[00:15:46] Ken: But yeah, it always felt thoughtfully, thoughtfully done.

[00:15:50] Chuck: Yeah. It's a lot of smart people in that space, and solving ways in a particular way, and I used it for a few, I mean [00:16:00] that's how Robbie and I met actually, when I was in D. C. And I was working for a startup there, that was Ember. And started getting involved with like, the local meetup, and And that's how our paths crossed.

[00:16:14] Chuck: So I used it for a few years and then just ended up going in another direction. Not really, hate. It's just, you know, next thing basically.

[00:16:23] Ken: I ended up on React, like, randomly, early. I think, like, the first time I saw it, I was like, what the fuck is this? And then, like, not that much later, I, like, went back and, like, tried it again. And, like, at the same time, TypeScript came out. And I didn't like TypeScript for a long time. I didn't like TypeScript until fucking VS Code.

[00:16:45] Chuck: Yeah.

[00:16:46] Ken: Until you got the editor integration to really make it shine. I I was like, this is fucking dumb. But I came back to react and I think started playing with it. I'm like, okay, this is fun. Started building a couple things. Like it was like my night and [00:17:00] weekend thing. I was doing like, like JSP and jQuery during the day and then fucking went and started writing react professionally.

[00:17:09] Ken: And what, how nicely that worked out generally speaking. Okay

[00:17:16] Chuck: for you, but you know,

[00:17:18] Ken: yeah.

[00:17:19] Chuck: You gotta wonder what's, you know, what's the next thing, or is there a next thing? I mean, is there a

[00:17:25] Ken: It's HTMX, man.

[00:17:27] Chuck: Yes.

[00:17:28] Ken: like, non jokingly, I think HTMX can take care of about fuckin half, if not more than half of the shit that is currently written in React. And that's not a dig on React. At all. Right? People have been saying, like, don't build your fuckin blog with React for a very long time. Yeah, so, I think that's for, for lightweight kind of shit, even really heavier shit, but, you know, like, a lot of the shit that I do, you probably couldn't do in it.

[00:17:52] Chuck: Yeah.

[00:17:53] Ken: And that's fine.

[00:17:56] Chuck: Yeah, not that alone, right? You need the right [00:18:00] combination of tools, potentially. It's like, hard to say

[00:18:02] Ken: I don't like mixing shit.

[00:18:03] Chuck: Yeah,

[00:18:04] Chuck: no. Nah.

[00:18:06] Chuck: do you do with them term tables, then? Heh

[00:18:10] Ken: I don't mix, like, foundational frameworks together.

[00:18:14] Chuck: Yeah, yeah,

[00:18:15] Ken: Like, I actually wish that there was, like, Well, A, I wish that web components were better, fundamentally. But I also wish that it was, like, So they're kind of, like, fucking useless without, like, lit or some shit like that, right? So it's like Anytime they're like, oh yeah, you could just use them.

[00:18:32] Ken: No, you can't Don't you fucking lie. You cannot just use the guys if it shows you code, you'll be able to anything right but like And i'm gonna get killed for this The web promoter boys are gonna be like what the fuck are you talking about? But no really like You'd have to use react lit and that And I just it would be cool if there was like a better story for that because Then I could switch all my shit to solid right now

[00:18:55] Chuck: now there's your spicy take. Now there's your spicy [00:19:00] take. Yeah, Ryan applauds you. He's like, yeah, Come on over.

[00:19:04] Robbie: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:19:05] Robbie: I bet Solidus had a release Within the last year, don't you think?

[00:19:09] Ken: Yeah, even without like the last half decade's great

[00:19:13] Chuck: Yeah, yeah, right. Well, you know, I mean it's It's a constant argument, but it does feel like that the argument is getting better. Like, I think there was a thread on on Twitter just today where Ryan was kind of talking about, yeah, but the problem is, is we don't move forward because we have all these excuses why react is just the most pervasive.

[00:19:39] Chuck: And, you know, if you took a risk and weren't saying, well, there are all these component libraries, there's all these like react friendly things. Like, we're never gonna catch up to Next because we don't have the backing of Next, and we don't have the backing of Next because all these other things are in that same ecosystem, but our core [00:20:00] is really good, and people keep saying that, so like, you know, It's it's very good. It's very good What I'll say is That if you're it So if you're just like a kid at home fucking around with shit You know some fucking new dude, right? You could use whatever the fuck you want. And Yeah, you see a lot of people using next. However, like, you know, if you're, if you're like at a company and you're like, have like an organization and like, you fucking made like a 10 year investment in like react

[00:20:36] Ken: or anything.

[00:20:36] Ken: Very, that's a very difficult sell to be like, Oh, let's just switch it over.

[00:20:42] Chuck: yeah,

[00:20:43] Ken: Right. Like not just the code itself, but like the collective knowledge Internally around a certain thing Right, so it's like harder to move unless it's really compelling and I think that what [00:21:00] reacted at the time Was fucking compelling compared to to what?

[00:21:04] Ken: Yeah, you were on backbone or angular And a lot of people who fucking deserved angular stayed on it That's mean no, I like I I like I actually like angular one probably more than angular two to be honest It's not

[00:21:19] Ken: angular two. It's

[00:21:19] Ken: just angular now

[00:21:21] Chuck: Yeah. It's just

[00:21:21] Ken: AngularJS 1, I, I, I Liked. AngularJS 2, or

[00:21:29] Ken: just, just,

[00:21:30] Ken: just Angular.

[00:21:31] Ken: One thing that I do like about Angular, that I will tell you, is observables. That shit is nice.

[00:21:37] Chuck: Yeah.

[00:21:38] Ken: That shit is really nice. I use that a lot in in React. Have you seen React Observable?

[00:21:44] Chuck: No.

[00:21:45] Ken: It's very cool.

[00:21:46] Ken: It's very cool. like genericized observable library? I'm not, I'm blanking a little

[00:21:52] Ken: There's several.

[00:21:53] Chuck: Yes. Hmm.

[00:21:58] Ken: There's a few. [00:22:00] I think it makes sense for what I do. Which is mostly work with like real time data. You know, when you get into that kind of engineering, I think it makes a lot more sense than like telling like, somebody to use it for a click handler. I mean, it doesn't make sense for, like, counter state.

[00:22:17] Ken: Right?

[00:22:18] Ken: But if it's like, Oh, I have, like, three, four different streams that need to get, like, aggregated, and have these weird ass fuckin rules about this, this, and that, then

[00:22:26] Chuck: Then you kind of need that.

[00:22:28] Ken: Fair.

[00:22:28] Chuck: Yeah.

[00:22:30] Ken: But, I think that the next thing, the thing that will eventually unseat React, because React's thing is that it's everywhere, everybody knows it.

[00:22:41] Ken: Anything you could possibly want the best version of it is available for react like component libraries Whatever the fuck and did it yeah all this shit. It all the shit's there and Bruce L is doing Everything they can to cement it is the standard where it's like the standard [00:23:00] library of the web, which No, no argument for me, right?

[00:23:04] Ken: Like I'm not particularly upset about that But if you want to unseat react what you have to do is you need to be fundamentally different

[00:23:10] Chuck: Yeah.

[00:23:11] Ken: There needs to be a compelling case that can be sold. you have to get the initial community that'll actually put it over the line.

[00:23:18] Chuck: I think simplicity is part of that compelling case to a degree. Like, right? Like,

[00:23:24] Robbie: is having his moment.

[00:23:25] Chuck: right? HDMX with other older frameworks and all of a sudden like, wait, I don't need four cloud providers for auth and user management and RBAC and stuff like that. I can actually just pick up a framework that. Builds all that in for me, has a nice ORM, then get my thing done?

[00:23:46] Ken: The funny thing about HTMX is they're not converting any front end developers. They're just converting all the front end developers back end developers.

[00:23:56] Chuck: Yeah

[00:23:57] Ken: The back end developers are like, all right, you know what? [00:24:00] Fuck you. And then they just make,

[00:24:03] Ken: I'm going to I got go. I'm gonna, yeah, I'm gonna write this in Go and just ship HTML straight from the API I'm good to go.

[00:24:10] Ken: I wish I could write more Go.

[00:24:12] Chuck: Mmm You just need to start a company and then have it be Go.

[00:24:18] Ken: Why would I start a company?

[00:24:21] Chuck: So you can write more go. I don't know why, why else would you

[00:24:25] Ken: I don't know. listen?

[00:24:28] Chuck: No.

[00:24:29] Ken: No, I'm pretty risk averse. I'm a terrible businessman.

[00:24:32] Chuck: Hmm. So you're saying you're not good with money.

[00:24:37] Ken: No. No.

[00:24:41] Ken: Not at all. You, would be apt to take investment dollars and make some egregious purchases under the guise of

[00:24:48] Ken: No, I don't think I'd do that. I think, I think I'd also come up with like, like generally good ideas. Right? But, like the day to day of it. I'm not that brand of adult. [00:25:00] That's You know, it's actually, the funny thing is that it's not what I want to do.

[00:25:03] Chuck: yeah,

[00:25:04] Ken: Like, I like to, to solve code problems all day long.

[00:25:08] Chuck: yeah

[00:25:09] Ken: That's actually what I like to do.

[00:25:10] Ken: Like, people are like, oh, why haven't you transitioned to management? I'm like, oh, because I'm an HR liability. But, the,

[00:25:16] Chuck: There's also that

[00:25:17] Ken: the, the actual thing is that I fucking don't like people, generally. You know, like, I like, like, people that I know. Right, but like, people in general, or that you're like, forcing it, like, I don't like fucking people, and like, all my friends who are managers are like, I'll tell you what, people are so much harder than code, it's fucking all, like, oh, it's not,

[00:25:34] Ken: it's not that it's, it's, it's people.

[00:25:36] Ken: And I'm like, you know, I'm like, what are you, like, sit here all day long and fucking have to do one on ones with people bitching you about their lives? They're like, yeah, I'm like, that doesn't sound fun to me.

[00:25:43] Chuck: Mmm,

[00:25:44] Chuck: not

[00:25:45] Chuck: just their lives, but but also

[00:25:47] Ken: inter office politics and

[00:25:48] Ken: bullshit. Shit. money and they perceive their performance to get said money,

[00:25:55] Chuck: you know walking on eggshells all the time,

[00:25:57] Chuck: Yeah. As I say, there's the other [00:26:00] side of the story, too. Like, their relationship with you is different, right? If you're on, in the trenches with them, like, no matter how much trust you build, there is a difference in, like, your set of responsibilities and that nuance in your relationship.

[00:26:14] Chuck: That's just a reality. Yeah, perceived power, you know? I mean, I guess technically the manager can make moves to fire you, but conversely, some of that power exists bi directionally. But,

[00:26:28] Ken: Absolutely, you could make heinous allegations,

[00:26:31] Ken: if one were predisposed.

[00:26:34] Ken: Or true or false. I didn't say true or false, I said heinous.

[00:26:37] Ken: But, yeah, dude, I have no interest in that shit. What would happen is I'd probably give some real raw dog, unsolicited advice, and shit would hit the fan. And I'd be like, I'm like, well, we don't pay that much because you're not that good

[00:26:52] Chuck: Yeah, right. The pay is commensurate with skill [00:27:00] level.

[00:27:00] Ken: There's like a level of did you know like the the northeast bullshit level cap like You hit a certain tier


[00:27:07] Ken: And somebody'll be nice up until like 80

[00:27:10] Chuck: Yeah.

[00:27:10] Ken: you'll you'll push somebody you push on somebody up to like 80 The second you go to 81 you're dealing with a northeastern fellow or lady for that matter, they're gonna fucking go to 200 They're

[00:27:23] Ken: just

[00:27:24] Ken: They're gonna be like, you know what?

[00:27:26] Ken: Fuck you. No, no, no, no. Just go like Yeah, like, if somebody's doing that shit, I'll sit there, I'll start like I'm getting uncomfortable because I know it's gonna happen.

[00:27:37] Chuck: Yeah, yeah, it's coming.

[00:27:38] Ken: I'm like, back it down. Back it down. Fuck you, I quit.

[00:27:44] Chuck: And now

[00:27:45] Chuck: I am out. and da da da da, like, you know, just lose your mind. So Yeah, that's why I can't be a manager.

[00:27:52] Chuck: But as you get older, will, will that level out? Here's the thing is that you get, I think, here's my

[00:27:59] Chuck: perception. You [00:28:00] get, down?

[00:28:00] Chuck: well, maybe, maybe not. I don't know, but in my view, this is for me, it could happen. It could not happen to you. You get older and you do have more patience, but you also dislike people more.

[00:28:17] Ken: Are you sunning me right now? Hold up. How old are you?

[00:28:20] Chuck: Yeah, son. I'm 46.

[00:28:23] Chuck: Yeah, Wow. Clean living.

[00:28:27] Robbie: Yeah. Yep. every day will do that

[00:28:31] Robbie: for you. was gonna say, I am just preserved from the inside out

[00:28:34] Chuck: bra. Yeah. I I was like, I was like, I was like, fucking, who are you talking about? Getting old. And I was like, I'm 38. And

[00:28:41] Chuck: yeah. I was like, listen son.

[00:28:43] Ken: you did? Yeah. Yeah. I was like, yeah, us, US Gen Xers. We just you

[00:28:50] Chuck: know, we just don't. still Gen X. Right?

[00:28:52] Chuck: No, I don't think so. I think it ends in 1980. I'm 77. Yeah. Yeah, my my white. [00:29:00] Yeah Yeah, I I know 100 percent you're you know, nope, you're millennial because she's 83 and she's like, yeah

[00:29:06] Robbie: She's 83. She's quite a bit

[00:29:09] Ken: I'm an 85 er.

[00:29:10] Ken: Robbie, how old are you? I'm

[00:29:14] Robbie: 33.

[00:29:16] Ken: That's cool.

[00:29:18] Robbie: Yeah.

[00:29:18] Ken: Yeah. You're firmly millennial.

[00:29:21] Chuck: Mm hmm.

[00:29:22] Chuck: Yeah

[00:29:22] Ken: Yeah. I'm, I'm, I don't know, I'm like transitory millennial. Elder, elder,

[00:29:27] Ken: elder a little bit of both, yeah.

[00:29:30] Ken: I feel

[00:29:31] Chuck: I mean, well wait, how many Douglas Copeland books have you read?

[00:29:35] Ken: None.

[00:29:35] Chuck: Well then, you're not Gen X. 100 percent not

[00:29:39] Ken: But,

[00:29:40] Ken: I'm not, yeah, that's what I'm saying. Like, I'm not a

[00:29:43] Ken: I'm not a big reader in the first place.

[00:29:45] Robbie: Yeah

[00:29:46] Chuck: Okay.

[00:29:47] Ken: don't, I don't, I don't pleasure read. Do you guys read, fiction?

[00:29:50] Chuck: to. Like, I used to. Yeah, I used to a lot.

[00:29:53] Ken: I like non fiction.

[00:29:55] Chuck: I like both, actually. I used

[00:29:56] Chuck: to like both. a video game. I'm not gonna read

[00:29:59] Chuck: I have, [00:30:00] yeah. Yeah, I, hey, I fucking play video games.

[00:30:03] Chuck: I fucking play the shit

[00:30:04] Chuck: out of video games. But lately, I'm obsessed with Tears of the Kingdom. I

[00:30:08] Chuck: just keep, I played about time, oh my

[00:30:12] Chuck: gosh, yeah, I'll take little half hour pockets and be like, okay, I'm gonna do this shrine quest.

[00:30:16] Chuck: I'm gonna collect this armor set. Now, what do I need to upgrade? You know, yes,

[00:30:21] Ken: You know what, I've been playing

[00:30:23] Ken: Vr, Auto. Oh, okay, yeah,

[00:30:26] Chuck: yeah, I

[00:30:27] Ken: You guys play this shit

[00:30:28] Chuck: golf though.

[00:30:30] Robbie: I've dabbled. that mini golf is fucking sick

[00:30:33] Chuck: Mini golf is sick.

[00:30:35] Ken: Did You ever play

[00:30:36] Ken: the full golf?

[00:30:37] Chuck: The what?

[00:30:38] Ken: The full golf,

[00:30:39] Ken: like

[00:30:40] Ken: golf plus or whatever? It's

[00:30:41] Ken: unbelievable. saw that.

[00:30:42] Ken: it's like a, you suck at it in the almost exact same ways that you suck at real golf.

[00:30:49] Chuck: Yeah, great. I should love it then.

[00:30:51] Ken: So it's like, like I'm, I'm sitting there and I'm playing shitty. I'm like, wait, this is exactly how I play. I'm like, I fuckin I'm like, I swing too hard off the drive and fuckin [00:31:00] slice it. I'm like, Jesus Christ, they should pick that up.

[00:31:02] Chuck: Yeah.

[00:31:03] Ken: dude, like, the VR games, like, it's very difficult for me to play something like COD now. When you play, like, like have you guys played Half Life Alyx?

[00:31:11] Chuck: Nope.

[00:31:12] Robbie: Mm-Hmm.

[00:31:13] Ken: Unbelievable. So, like, this shit, like, It's hard to describe, like, you'll see there, there'll be like a, Like a a handgun magazine on the ground, right?

[00:31:23] Ken: And you have like these like gravity gloves and you can be like, shim, right? And it'll fucking like flip up in the air and then you catch that shit. Right. And then you put it into your shit and you're right. But you're like actually doing it with your, like we call it duty. Like basically you're the entire time, right?

[00:31:36] Ken: You're trying to move a dot to be on top of somebody,

[00:31:39] Chuck: yeah.

[00:31:40] Ken: right? Like, Oh, you're going through great lengths. Just put a dot on top of somebody. Like, that's the thing the whole time. But like this shit. Right? Like Arizona Sunshine 2, right? It's like

[00:31:49] Ken: zombies, you're like, that.

[00:31:51] Ken: and like, these zombies are coming up, and like, you have to like, fucking like, grab ammo, and like, load this shotgun, and cock it, and like, push them

[00:31:56] Chuck: I don't know.

[00:31:57] Ken: head off.

[00:31:58] Ken: It's awesome.

[00:31:58] Chuck: Those, like, [00:32:00] horror games in VR kind of freak me out, the thought of it. I haven't, like No, I didn't. Same

[00:32:07] Chuck: thing. in the fucking head with forks and shit. It's

[00:32:09] Chuck: I got to fight Darth Vader mean one? The whole like Star Wars three parter thing with the lightsabers? You don't, yeah, you don't, you don't have that geek in you, do you?

[00:32:19] Ken: No, I do. I just don't like like, like, I don't know.

[00:32:24] Chuck: You don't like Star Wars?

[00:32:26] Ken: I, I mean, sorrow was okay, like the first three of them.

[00:32:30] Chuck: Yeah. Well,

[00:32:32] Chuck: for me, three or one, two, and three.

[00:32:34] Ken: The original three.

[00:32:35] Chuck: Yeah. Yeah, I figured that's what you meant. Clarifying. 4, 5, 6. I saw, so I saw, empire Strikes back at the Drive-in, but I barely remember it. And then I saw Returning the Jedi in 83 at the, at the movies OG there. So I just like the idea. And in vr, you know, Darth Vader, like they [00:33:00] have the whole like size measurement perception thing, so he's like.

[00:33:04] Chuck: 20 feet tall it feels like and you're just and he steps up to you He's really pissed and you're like, holy shit. This is crazy kind of creepy So if I played one of those like like there's a Blair Witch Project game and some other like crazy shit, too I like I'm not doing that in VR. I will I will pee my pants

[00:33:22] Ken: There's ones that like freak you the fuck out actually. Well dude, so there's this one that, it was Halflife Alex I was playing and it's, it's so creative what they did with it. Like there was like you have the headset on, right? And there's like speakers here. And there's constantly like shit popping out or this is how you're like, ah, right?

[00:33:41] Ken: Like but like you go and like a fucking like piece of a wall falls off, right? And you're like standing there on the edge of something, right? They like play this white noise like loud enough that it felt like wind on your face. I Was like, what the fuck? It was crazy. I'm like, I'm like, whoa, this is fucking nuts And the weirdest thing is coming back to reality [00:34:00] after that Like you'd like beat the game like you take fucking headset off and you go upstairs.

[00:34:03] Ken: You know, like

[00:34:05] Chuck: What's gonna what's gonna jump

[00:34:08] Chuck: around you guys played Grand Theft Auto? Yeah. Yeah.

[00:34:13] Ken: Yeah,

[00:34:14] Robbie: I haven't in a, a

[00:34:15] Robbie: while now. Yeah.

[00:34:16] Ken: yeah.

[00:34:17] Chuck: the computer games that were like 2d over top. I loved

[00:34:21] Ken: No, then. GTA V?

[00:34:23] Robbie: Mm

[00:34:25] Ken: Yeah. Have you ever driven directly after playing GTA V for like three hours?

[00:34:30] Chuck: no, It's wild, because like, you're

[00:34:32] Ken: like, Like, some shit gets, like, I like fucking back out of the driveway, I'm like, I'm like, BAH! I fucking pull around, I'm like, BAH! I'm like, Woah, hold on, I've gotta, fuck, back in the real world now, but,

[00:34:42] Chuck: Yeah.

[00:34:43] Ken: Yeah, you like, you get like, subtly used to being an asshole like that, Right. then it just like, tracks out into, outside of the game.

[00:34:51] Chuck: You know, I hope, I hope

[00:34:53] Robbie: I

[00:34:55] Chuck: they're all going to be like, okay, so don't let my kids play these games. [00:35:00] Clearly they think this becomes reality at some point.

[00:35:02] Ken: I let my kids play Mean

[00:35:03] Robbie: that's an argument with all games like you got to be able to separate it from reality because none of them are like Let's learn how to like cook or do a like nice life skill or some shit. Like

[00:35:15] Robbie: Fun unless it's like Power Wash Simulator?

[00:35:18] Chuck: No, but No, but that does sound good. satisfying.

[00:35:22] Ken: extremely.

[00:35:24] Robbie: Oh, I'm gonna have to tell my wife about that one. She fucking loves watching power watching videos and like,

[00:35:30] Robbie: so Yeah. they shows the best ones. Yeah.

[00:35:35] Ken: You guys power wash?

[00:35:36] Chuck: I do. Yeah.

[00:35:38] Robbie: Oh yeah.

[00:35:38] Chuck: Yes.

[00:35:39] Ken: like, I like it, but I also hate it. I like, let's go, let's go ruin a pair of sneakers, fellas, like

[00:35:45] Chuck: All right, yeah.

[00:35:47] Ken: covered in mildew. wrong and it sprays all over your face and shit. Like, yeah. Hate that.

[00:35:52] Ken: I, I have to so like around my pool, right? There's like all these like patio pavers. Quite a bit of patio [00:36:00] pavers. And I powerwashed it, and I guess it knocked some of that sand out. Yeah. the polybaric sand. So, like, now, I have all this growth. And the other day I got this thing, it's like a fuckin like, like an eagle talon on fuckin two wheels that you use to scrape it all out.

[00:36:15] Ken: It's all scraped out, but I have to powerwash that whole fuckin thing. And like, that's like the, like, I like when it's like, Oh, this section of siding has a little bit of moss. That's, get this incredibly satisfying, you know, it's not there anymore. This is like an eight hour day of like pushing this fucking thing around with like the the ground attachment on it like I might pay somebody to do it.

[00:36:36] Ken: I fucking don't know Worth it Yeah, like i'll power watch the deck

[00:36:47] Chuck: Yeah, yeah, that's a yeah,

[00:36:49] Ken: Yeah follow those lines. And then I use a power washer with like the foam attachment to wash the car. You ever foamed your car?

[00:36:58] Ken: I never did it through the

[00:36:59] Chuck: [00:37:00] Oh man, you get some like foam stuff. Yeah and that is also very satisfying. So you just like, you know, make it a little wet. And then you put the foam attachment on.

[00:37:09] Chuck: And it puts this like big foam coat on. And it just like slowly drips down the dirt. And then you end up with this ama And then you just rinse that off, done. You don't even have to touch it. It's so

[00:37:20] Chuck: good. a job for me after Devin takes my job.

[00:37:23] Chuck: Yeah, that's true. You could yeah, there's some guys way into like,

[00:37:27] Ken: able to do it. You saw that today?

[00:37:29] Chuck: No. Figure?

[00:37:31] Ken: you didn't see this? Can you cast shit to the, to the screen?

[00:37:35] Chuck: Like

[00:37:36] Robbie: I Yeah. you can

[00:37:38] Chuck: Yeah, there's a share button. Yeah, go ahead. Share

[00:37:40] Chuck: the my screen. It's a bunch of proprietary information and pornography. But there, there was a

[00:37:47] Ken: thing, right? There's, there's you're bringing Myspace back. We get

[00:37:50] Chuck: it. So, there's like a robot thing called Figure.

[00:37:57] Ken: That has like open AI as a brain.

[00:37:59] Chuck: [00:38:00] Oh.

[00:38:00] Ken: it was like doing dishes.

[00:38:02] Robbie: Oh, shit.

[00:38:03] Ken: Yeah,

[00:38:04] Ken: so like is safe then.

[00:38:05] Ken: yes, I'm some mm. Firing

[00:38:08] Chuck: my wife?

[00:38:08] Ken: he was like, he's like, yeah, there goes being an electrician. I was like literally looking at electrician schools.

[00:38:17] Robbie: yeah,

[00:38:19] Chuck: Well, I guess we

[00:38:20] Robbie: charge a lot.

[00:38:21] Ken: I actually got rid of that idea because because here's here's here's here's the reasoning, right? Like You know, people self select for electricianship right now, right? But, in the event that the entire white collar workforce is laid off, like, how many new electricians are entering the market? What does that do to the pay for

[00:38:45] Ken: electricians,

[00:38:46] Ken: right?

[00:38:47] Ken: Like, it's not even going to be fucking worth it, right? So, I don't know. I think that, you know, like, if you If they take all the jobs away from people, I think that's going to go pretty poorly.

[00:38:58] Robbie: Yeah. I [00:39:00] think we should just go fuck up all the AI servers everywhere so they can't make progress.

[00:39:05] Ken: Really, truly. Well, honestly, you know, if you, if you fucking went over and gave a semiconductor factory in Noogie, You I think it would solve a lot of problems.

[00:39:21] Chuck: Do

[00:39:21] Robbie: Yeah. how they reset the credit system at the end of Fight Club? It's like, there was

[00:39:28] Chuck: all this Right? like, actually anything after that. I just remember a bunch of buildings exploding.

[00:39:32] Chuck: Exactly, so their whole thing, Project Mayhem, was to destroy all these bank buildings with the servers in the bottom. And they would, were basically watching the financial system meltdown. And it's a total reset for humanity. So, before it Yeah. we just gotta fight Glob, all that shit.

[00:39:51] Ken: Well, here, here's a, here's a brain scratcher for you. Would you be willing to [00:40:00] deal with losing modern conveniences in exchange for not being in AI space communism?

[00:40:12] Chuck: I mean, would I, no. See, I would, but I think most people wouldn't. Which is why We're on, we're on we're on the train.

[00:40:22] Chuck: It's, it

[00:40:23] Chuck: has no brakes because, and that's what's happened for years though. Convenience and comfort has always

[00:40:30] Chuck: taken, it's a first, yeah pun intended, first class citizen in life. Because like, yeah I'd be concerned with this, but I have my phone, I have cable TV, I can watch the sports every

[00:40:42] Robbie: Yeah. Like if internet goes away, just fucking shoot me in the face because I don't, what do I want to live for if I'm just like gardening and

[00:40:52] Ken: Oh,

[00:40:52] Ken: dude, no

[00:40:53] Ken: internet would be awesome. the, the real problem is medicine.

[00:40:57] Chuck: yeah. Yeah.

[00:40:58] Robbie: yeah,

[00:40:59] Ken: Then [00:41:00] like, you know, your kid dies of like the fucking common cold

[00:41:03] Chuck: Oh gosh, like yeah,

[00:41:06] Robbie: Yeah

[00:41:07] Chuck: that's true. Those are

[00:41:08] Ken: Like I'm totally into this whole like fucking live in the woods thing and build shit out of wood and fucking hunt elk and eat beef jerky and fuck type thing. That's tight.

[00:41:17] Chuck: yeah,

[00:41:18] Ken: But like, you know, and then like your old lady dies in childbirth and you're like, you know what? Fucking computers, man.

[00:41:25] Robbie: Yeah,

[00:41:26] Robbie: that's always been weird to me

[00:41:29] Robbie: like why why do humans have so much problem with childbirth

[00:41:32] Ken: Because we're not from here.

[00:41:34] Robbie: Because what?

[00:41:35] Ken: Because we're not from here. We freeze to death, we get sunburned, we're ill suited for the climate. I'm convinced, either A, we got French bulldogged, or B, some fuckin aliens came here and fucked monkeys and fuckin that's what we are or something, because we're not fit for this shit. We're not, we're not, We're, we're cunning, right? Like, maybe like a couple guys found K's, but that's [00:42:00] actually like, if you think about it, if you think about like percentages of, of problems and shit without modern medicine, like it's unbelievable we didn't all die out. It's un fucking believable.

[00:42:10] Robbie: Like put a few humans against like a pack of lions. We're not winning yeah,

[00:42:15] Ken: No way.

[00:42:16] Chuck: build, build tools to win. Apparently

[00:42:18] Chuck: that's, that's the theory. Yeah, yeah, over a few

[00:42:22] Ken: We'd be living in trees like

[00:42:23] Ken: fucking trolls. We'd have little tree houses and shit with lanterns.

[00:42:27] Chuck: We're definitely not the, yeah, trolls. I'm a rock Troll.

[00:42:32] Ken: Funk troll.

[00:42:33] Chuck: Yeah, Robbie's definitely pop.

[00:42:35] Ken: Definitely.

[00:42:37] Chuck: Yeah, what you're talking about

[00:42:38] Chuck: yeah, your kid's not old enough, but you'll Know.

[00:42:42] Ken: get there.

[00:42:43] Chuck: so natural selection, right? We think about, like, natural selection in this way, and we're definitely not the top of the food pyramid in that way. No, don't know where we land, but we're not at

[00:42:53] Ken: Technically now we are, but it's

[00:42:55] Ken: artificial. right, right It's manufactured. We, like, fought our way to the top. [00:43:00] We're

[00:43:01] Robbie: we are very lower, very much lower than we are now.

[00:43:05] Ken: I think without like societal fucking mechanisms in place though, like, if I just set a tiger loose in New York City, like, it would really fuck a lot of people up.


[00:43:18] Robbie: Oh yeah,

[00:43:18] Ken: They'd really, like,

[00:43:19] Ken: you would really have to call in a very specialized SWAT team to put that thing down.

[00:43:22] Robbie: yeah,

[00:43:23] Chuck: Yeah, yeah. It's gonna get a few

[00:43:25] Ken: That would be like a huge problem.

[00:43:26] Ken: So like, if you didn't have a SWAT team, or like, rifles and shit like that, like, are some guys with spears gonna take one for the team?

[00:43:34] Chuck: Yeah.

[00:43:35] Ken: run

[00:43:35] Ken: up on that bitch and fuckin ta ta ta, right?

[00:43:38] Chuck: Right, right. I mean, there's so much of life in that way that I think that is very enabled by The access to particular conveniences, right? Like, a lion shows up, you If you just see it, but you're safe, you can call someone else to take care of it. [00:44:00] Maybe you have something to overpower it, but not by your own physical being, right?

[00:44:05] Chuck: Like, there are things that make you, have like a sense of safety. I, okay, so, tangentially related. I, I have said this before, that like, There's the idea of being a vegan, for example, right? Like, that's a very, like, urban, modern convenience. Like, you don't live out in the sticks and eat salad. How many vegans have you ever met that are like, Yeah, I eat like a rabbit,

[00:44:32] Chuck: and I'm deer even do that? They eat grass all day and live. What? I don't get it anyway. Well,

[00:44:38] Chuck: different things, and their brains are a lot smaller, which is why we eat them. Yeah, and that's why we get to eat them. Because we take on some of those nutrients second process

[00:44:49] Chuck: within their muscles. Yeah, exactly. Way more efficiently. So like, as a human, choosing to be a vegan is very much a hard fought [00:45:00] choice, to a degree.

[00:45:01] Chuck: Because, in the wild you don't have that access. In many towns, you don't have that access. Unless you want to live on like, Doritos or something. And only certain Doritos, because some are

[00:45:11] Chuck: not vegan. Right?

[00:45:13] Chuck: Right. your your actual choices like is it actual vegetables or just things that don't have a face

[00:45:18] Ken: from what I understand, like so you have like, like, vegetarians who can eat pizza, Yeah, really clears a lot up. absolutely. who can't eat dairy, right?

[00:45:30] Chuck: yeah. Vegans don't eat dairy. They, oh, they don't eat honey, because we can't ask the bees for permission to

[00:45:36] Robbie: Mm hmm. You can't eat figs because they have wasps in them

[00:45:39] Ken: Really?

[00:45:40] Robbie: Mm hmm

[00:45:41] Chuck: I didn't hear, I've never heard that.

[00:45:43] Ken: Huh. Something like maybe i'm fucking wrong, but I seems like a really specific thing to be fucking wrong about let me look

[00:45:52] Ken: Yeah, I don't know. I, like, every time, like, I start, I, I start, like, prying, like, somebody's like, oh, I'm a vegan, right? And I'm like, oh, well, fucking, you know, tell me about this. And [00:46:00] then it sounds so bad that I fucking get bored and don't pry any further to get, like, like, to the real meat. I'm like, But the real meat.

[00:46:07] Chuck: go.

[00:46:08] Ken: But yeah, I'm just like, I, I, I fucking, you know, Keep, keep it up if you like it, whatever, Yeah,

[00:46:15] Chuck: I mean like good for you. I'm not convinced

[00:46:17] Ken: Yeah, no, not for me. I feel like I could probably do like pescatarian,

[00:46:24] Chuck: Yeah, yeah, yeah

[00:46:26] Ken: you know, in a bind. Like, I fucking love, like, I mean, chicken is give or take. Chicken's like middle of the road. That's like standard, right?

[00:46:32] Ken: Like, if I'm gonna eat anything, like, I always have chicken. I'll always eat chicken.

[00:46:38] Chuck: Yeah

[00:46:39] Ken: I fucking love. But like if it was just like, oh, you drop me off on an island with a fishing pole, fucking, all you can eat is, like, fish and shit, like, okay,

[00:46:49] Chuck: Yeah, I I like

[00:46:50] Ken: fish.

[00:46:51] Robbie: given like

[00:46:52] Robbie: resources. I would take nothing but crab legs for every meal

[00:46:56] Chuck: Nice

[00:46:57] Robbie: But you know, that's not [00:47:00] really

[00:47:00] Ken: in the fucking ocean.

[00:47:01] Chuck: Yeah. Yeah Yeah

[00:47:02] Chuck: They're very tasty. Chicken always take, is always a artifact of its recipe.

[00:47:08] Ken: Yeah.

[00:47:09] Chuck: just cooks a chicken breast plain with a little salt and pepper and

[00:47:13] Robbie: it's very bland.

[00:47:14] Chuck: love it. People do that with steak, right? They're like, Ooh,

[00:47:17] Ken: Yeah.

[00:47:18] Chuck: so

[00:47:18] Robbie: Yeah,

[00:47:19] Chuck: it

[00:47:19] Chuck: Yeah.

[00:47:21] Ken: eat a chicken, but it has to be a regular chicken. Yeah, like a rotisserie chicken.

[00:47:26] Chuck: Oh yeah. Yeah. But it needs to the smaller the chicken, the better.

[00:47:29] Ken: If you want like fat and the breast meat for me My wife will make a rotisserie chicken and her and the kids eat the breast meat I'm fucking going for the thighs

[00:47:39] Ken: the wing.

[00:47:39] Ken: Oh that oh,

[00:47:40] Robbie: Oh, Yeah.

[00:47:41] Chuck: Yeah. Yeah. I'm all about the

[00:47:43] Chuck: thighs. Yeah. Fuck with giblets

[00:47:45] Chuck: Yeah,

[00:47:46] Chuck: I fuck with giblets Yeah. Heavily

[00:47:51] Robbie: Oh

[00:47:52] Chuck: this is sounds like an

[00:47:53] Chuck: HR going to be a quote we use now.

[00:47:55] Ken: I I I spatchcocked

[00:47:57] Ken: this fucking shit, right? It was beautiful [00:48:00] beautiful rub You spat you spatchcock those

[00:48:02] Chuck: fucking

[00:48:02] Ken: yeah, yeah. yeah. And then fucking they give you a little giblet bag on the inside.

[00:48:06] Chuck: Yeah.

[00:48:07] Ken: I'm sitting there. A little garlic butter with some liver and Yeah. Ooh, this shit

[00:48:12] Ken: is a

[00:48:13] Ken: little iron flavor on it.

[00:48:14] Chuck: a little, a lot of the parts are where it's Yeah. Which

[00:48:19] Robbie: is a weird thing though, is like you buy a Turkey, right? And they put all that inside it and freeze it. And yeah, you're supposed to like plan ahead and thaw it or whatever.

[00:48:27] Robbie: But if you don't, why can't they put that shit like on the outside in a separate package? So you could just move it when it's frozen and you don't have to, Sure, but it doesn't seem that big.

[00:48:38] Robbie: Like, man,

[00:48:40] Robbie: I spent, That's what originally was.

[00:48:42] Robbie: yeah, no, like Thanksgiving. I'm sitting there with hot water running over this shit. Cause I didn't thaw it enough, like for a fucking hour trying to get it out of there. Like it's

[00:48:53] Ken: Have you guys ever cut the organs out of an animal?

[00:48:55] Chuck: No.

[00:48:56] Ken: It's actually really fucking difficult.

[00:48:58] Chuck: Yeah, [00:49:00] I've

[00:49:00] Chuck: heard that. Yeah. stay

[00:49:02] Ken: Like when, when you, when you do the whole deer thing, like, like it's,

[00:49:06] Chuck: It's ironically called dressing a deer, right?

[00:49:09] Ken: yeah, yeah. I'm not going to use like fucking like localized nomenclature on you and shit. Like, but yeah, when you're addressing a deer, right? Like, you know, there's, there's a lot of care to be taken to not like get shit to not rupture like the digestive system to like spoil the meat or whatever. But like,

[00:49:25] Ken: as far as like artfully removing the giblets.

[00:49:31] Ken: That's another thing in and of itself, right? Because if you're just gonna go and dress it, field dress it, right? Like, you're gonna go in, right? And you go, like, ass to throat, and then you gotta go in and cut the windpipe, and you gotta cut out all the connective tissue around the sides, and like, dump it over, and like, you know, you just throw it all on the ground, right?

[00:49:51] Ken: But if you're gonna extract the giblets, right? Then you gotta go in and you gotta cut them out individually and shit, and like, put them in these, like, field bags and everything. It's a fucking [00:50:00] pain in the ass. I wonder who does this for chickens, right? Like, they, they cleanly, like, fucking extract these giblets out of a chicken while dressing it?

[00:50:08] Chuck: And is there a Who knows? that does it

[00:50:11] Ken: There's no fucking way a machine does it.

[00:50:13] Chuck: Yeah. all like slightly different sizes, so by hand, for sure. Yeah.

[00:50:18] Chuck: Yeah. It's

[00:50:20] Robbie: There's just perspective. are just really good at it, I guess. Oh.

[00:50:24] Chuck: in a factory farm too

[00:50:26] Ken: Have you guys ever been to Maryland?

[00:50:27] Chuck: Yes.

[00:50:28] Ken: Have you ever, have you ever been to one of these crab places?

[00:50:31] Chuck: Yes.

[00:50:32] Ken: Yeah, it's probably like that. Like the

[00:50:34] Ken: first mustard. I, I,

[00:50:36] Ken: there you're all coy

[00:50:37] Chuck: yeah.

[00:50:38] Ken: Fucking Picking her. Oh, how am I going to open this up? Right? Your boy shows you the trick He's like, yeah, the dick thing pull it like that, right and like then

[00:50:45] Ken: like 10 10 minutes later

[00:50:47] Ken: You're sitting there with some squeeze buddy.

[00:50:49] Ken: You're like bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam Like just fucking tearing these

[00:50:52] Ken: shits apart

[00:50:53] Ken: like a well oiled machine Like there's people who probably just fucking take those shits. They're like bam bam like

[00:50:58] Chuck: Your [00:51:00] first, so you're saying you never get any mustard in yours?

[00:51:02] Ken: Any You know, if you break open the, yeah, if

[00:51:05] Robbie: Yeah, the like, gross Yellow shit in the crabs.

[00:51:09] Chuck: Yeah.

[00:51:09] Ken: Not very often, you mean like a pregnant crab?

[00:51:12] Chuck: No, no, no, no, No, no. It's just like,

[00:51:14] Chuck: or whatever.

[00:51:15] Robbie: the the lungs and shit. There's always like

[00:51:18] Chuck: It's yellow

[00:51:19] Chuck: I call it the

[00:51:19] Ken: Oh no, I eat that.

[00:51:21] Robbie: you eat Yeah,

[00:51:22] Ken: yeah, I especially eat it on lobster.

[00:51:25] Chuck: Mmm.

[00:51:26] Ken: Yeah, I eat all the shit from the lobster.

[00:51:28] Chuck: Yeah. Do you eat the brain?

[00:51:30] Ken: No, I don't even know if they have brand.

[00:51:33] Chuck: Yeah, I don't know if they do for sure, but you can like suck out Did

[00:51:36] Ken: you guys make

[00:51:36] Ken: whole fish? No, I've had it made though. Yeah.

[00:51:41] Ken: You can get like a whole fish, right? And then just like, Rubber up with olive oil.

[00:51:48] Chuck: yeah, like Branzino. Kind

[00:51:50] Chuck: of like Branzino. Yeah, then just like fry it or bake it, you know, whatever you want to do and then when it's done the cheek [00:52:00] meat

[00:52:00] Chuck: Mmm, that's true. Cheek meat is, yes. Agree.

[00:52:04] Ken: The cheek meat on a red snapper, oh

[00:52:07] Chuck: Mm hmm, yeah. So I heard that there are fish in Florida, and specifically there are Near Miami.

[00:52:15] Chuck: Yeah. up to the skyscrapers.

[00:52:17] Chuck: They just, yeah, they jump up and you grab one.

[00:52:20] Robbie: Yeah, you just just, Yeah

[00:52:22] Chuck: I think that's how it goes.

[00:52:24] Ken: the fuck are you talking about Oh,

[00:52:28] Chuck: tangentially trying to bring up React Miami. I'm gonna, I'm gonna be

[00:52:33] Chuck: there. I'm, whiskey web miami for some kind of discount I forget what it is

[00:52:37] Chuck: I don't know either. Yeah, we do have a code though. Do you dollars, I think Okay, so Ken's code is WhiskeyWebMiami. Use that when you buy a ticket to hang out with us.

[00:52:49] Ken: could ask michelle. I could get a code

[00:52:51] Chuck: You could get a code. I mean, I don't know. Do you need a code?

[00:52:54] Chuck: You can yeah, maybe we should all have

[00:52:56] Chuck: codes show on fucking stage. I've been so [00:53:00] It's talk is how to make, beats with AI.

[00:53:03] Chuck: Yes

[00:53:04] Ken: And it's fucking going poorly.

[00:53:05] Chuck: Oh Okay, I know how to fix it. Okay, so we're gonna be there but we're gonna be like Media guys on the street doing like, you know, these like short interview things on the fly. But here's the important part is we're going to have a flask of brown juice in our

[00:53:26] Chuck: pockets. a refillable flask. Not a limited size. Yeah.

[00:53:31] Ken: See, so

[00:53:32] Ken: I'm gonna interview for a drink. Mm

[00:53:36] Chuck: What you do is you find or we find you right before your talk and you have some of that and then it's fixed.

[00:53:43] Robbie: Well, I thought you were gonna say, have the whole audience drink first, and then it's like, doesn't matter what you talk about

[00:53:48] Ken: So, so, like, actually, like, the, the, the, the problem surface that we're dealing with here is Mm hmm. That it's really difficult to get a a deterministic [00:54:00] demo

[00:54:00] Ken: using

[00:54:00] Ken: generative AI

[00:54:02] Chuck: Okay.

[00:54:03] Ken: like like normally, right? I'm like, oh here's how to like fucking do this and that and make this shit with JavaScript or fucking Swift or whatever the fuck Right, like I know like oh, well this demo is going to go exactly how I thought it would because I coded it that way Whereas this is like hey magic machine God

[00:54:22] Chuck: ha ha.

[00:54:23] Ken: gonna hold the audience off for three minutes while you fucking cook up some bullshit.

[00:54:27] Robbie: Mm.

[00:54:28] Ken: Please make it semi passable.

[00:54:30] Robbie: Yeah. You could just record it ahead of time and then pretend like you're typing it out right then.

[00:54:36] Ken: That's actually a really smart way to deal with the limitations. But like, I feel like it's I always give live demos and they go good and they go bad. And even if they go bad, I do funny shit so it's okay. But like, I feel like it hits way harder if it happens live.

[00:54:49] Chuck: Yeah.

[00:54:50] Robbie: true, yeah.

[00:54:50] Ken: Maybe, you know what I'll do? Maybe I'll just like record one.

[00:54:53] Ken: I'll use this as like a snippet when you guys publish this. I'll like, I'll be like, listen, I figured this out. I talked to the fellas and I [00:55:00] have a recorded one just in case this one went bad. It went bad here. Watch this. Like,

[00:55:03] Robbie: Yeah, a backup is good to have,

[00:55:05] Chuck: Yeah, there you go. Why not, like, cover both cases? I like that.

[00:55:09] Chuck: So Uh, What?

[00:55:16] Chuck: apprehensive to a

[00:55:18] Robbie: I think juniors should be very scared. And I wanna, also, maybe I shouldn't do this. On a, talking good about React Miami, but did you see Gabe's post earlier? They're hiring like two to three hundred juniors. To train LLMs to put juniors out of fucking jobs, and I said that is some fucking bullshit Let's not do that but like man, so What was the original question?

[00:55:47] Robbie: I don't know where I was going with that, but

[00:55:48] Chuck: Are you scared of AI? So I would

[00:55:50] Chuck: say, I should be very scared because Yeah

[00:55:57] Chuck: not sure you can stop [00:56:00] forward momentum. Is the difference.

[00:56:02] Ken: I'm strongly considering participating.

[00:56:04] Chuck: Yeah.

[00:56:05] Ken: But I don't think it's gonna, so, I, I know folks who participate and they have no moat, and most of them have bad ideas, but if they have a good idea, then OpenAI just deals it anyway. So it's like, you know, like anybody who had like a, like a good enough idea, like the big companies just do anyway,

[00:56:22] Ken: and like a company's over in a week. So I feel like the, so, What did somebody say? I'm actually gonna look it up, because, there's, there's, there's two tweets. that are fucking hilarious about this that kind of like so the one homie, this is the second time mentioning fudge today

[00:56:46] Chuck: Hmm.

[00:56:48] Ken: did he say he said all the smart people I meet seem to realize there's a steadily shrinking window of time to hop social classes Which is crazy

[00:56:56] Chuck: Oh, yes, yep,

[00:56:58] Ken: Isn't

[00:56:58] Ken: that crazy

[00:56:59] Robbie: very true [00:57:00] though.

[00:57:00] Ken: And it's like I would wager to say 99 percent aren't.

[00:57:07] Ken: And then like their last endeavor was like, like working for Chrome, trying to make a startup start or getting like VC money and then squandering it.

[00:57:16] Chuck: Yeah, of course. You know?

[00:57:19] Ken: money to an AI. And then like most of it turns out to be bullshit. Like that thing that they released the

[00:57:23] Ken: other day is pretty obviously bullshit.

[00:57:27] Ken: Like Devin or whatever.

[00:57:29] Chuck: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's bullshit Yeah. Yeah what the The problem isn't that is interesting.

[00:57:38] Ken: the, the quality of the product, the product, the, the, the problem is that they're, they're trying it intentionally and openly. Like, do you know what I mean? Like, like, like, like, like, like if somebody was like, I'm going to replace Hollywood with fucking AI video back when like, it was like that goofy shit with Will Smith, he needs sweaty like you laugh at them.

[00:57:56] Ken: Right. But the problem is that somebody says they're going to [00:58:00] replace Hollywood. And I'm not Hollywood, I'm a Yeah. So when somebody says they're going to replace software developers, bullshit or not, right? Like, that is an applauded and real and intentional goal that I do not like.

[00:58:16] Robbie: Yeah, they can

[00:58:17] Robbie: fuck right off with that shit

[00:58:19] Ken: developers, not

[00:58:19] Ken: to suck my own dick, but who fuckin else, who's safe?

[00:58:24] Ken: White collarly speaking. Fucking not managers, I'll take that much.

[00:58:27] Robbie: Yeah,

[00:58:28] Ken: Or project managers.

[00:58:30] Ken: Right?

[00:58:31] Robbie: Yeah

[00:58:32] Robbie: would be generational

[00:58:34] Robbie: wealth like

[00:58:35] Ken: fucked? Are they really fucked? Like, have you ever

[00:58:39] Robbie: Yeah, they're

[00:58:41] Ken: usable?

[00:58:41] Robbie: that like Well, you generate like the 80 percent that's like tells you what you want And then you can get a designer to do the last 20 percent of like I like this but make this different

[00:58:53] Ken: never, it's never, it's never Generated anything actionable for me, right like like [00:59:00] if you're like, hey do a fucking monkey in a space helmet on roller skates, right? It'll do that and you're like, oh look at that. But like like what do you have now? You should have a stupid fucking picture Right, you don't have like a figma with like information architecture, Yeah Well someone will probably

[00:59:16] Ken: Oh, there's there's probably

[00:59:17] Ken: a bunch of teams of juniors who can't get a job who are fucking absolutely working on it Sequoia just gave them a billion dollars

[00:59:24] Chuck: Yeah, yeah. And they're the first level of training and they'll, that'll get you to the 20 percent and then you find the next possibly desperate

[00:59:33] Ken: I'm finding the other, the other

[00:59:35] Ken: tweet, which was

[00:59:36] Ken: fucking, you'll enjoy this, it's just hilarious. Do you guys follow Growing Daniel?

[00:59:43] Robbie: Mm

[00:59:45] Robbie: mm.

[00:59:46] Ken: I'm like scrolling to get to his other tweet, there's another tweet he said, I'm going to miss front end devs after they get unceremoniously slaughtered by an AI model that can't reliably tell you what weighs more, a pound of feathers or a pound [01:00:00] of lead. He's

[01:00:03] Robbie: Oh, man, I think, I think that's a whole like misconception with front end dev too though is like won't AI something that's technically based be able to do algorithms and shit easier This Chrome bug works, right? The algorithm boys are out of business.

[01:00:20] Robbie: or four browsers. Yeah

[01:00:22] Ken: he said, If you don't get equity in an AI startup now, then your children will be chattel slaves for the global machine god for the rest of eternity. Ha ha! What a tweet.

[01:00:34] Robbie: Yeah,

[01:00:36] Ken: Yeah, but you know what? I think there's a false belief

[01:00:38] Ken: that fucking having an AI

[01:00:40] Ken: startup will save you. Right? Because it's like, oh, I made this thing that replaces this and that, but like, You have to understand that like, the, the, the need for code, or the need for design, or the need for copy, or the need for management, all stems from people [01:01:00] spending money.

[01:01:02] Ken: And being willing to spend money on things. And if no one has a job, no one is spending money, and your fucking AI thing is not going to get your 19. 99 a month.

[01:01:16] Chuck: yeah, exactly That's true. can buy your product.

[01:01:20] Chuck: Nobody can participate in your e

[01:01:22] Ken: Then what? Then,

[01:01:23] Ken: then Microsoft has like the best AI in the entire world. Nobody has jobs. And, fucking, I have to eat bugs. And live in like fucking com, commie blocks. With my family.

[01:01:35] Chuck: That's what universal basic

[01:01:38] Ken: And then like, what do you do with universal

[01:01:39] Ken: basic income?

[01:01:40] Robbie: Yeah,

[01:01:41] Ken: Like, what, what do you produce that an AI can't produce? What do you do that a robot can't do? Fucking, the second these things fuck, we're completely

[01:01:47] Ken: done.

[01:01:48] Chuck: Yeah the other people's income.

[01:01:52] Ken: Hey, I could generate better porno, like you're gonna have to literally, like you have like a five year buffer period of literally selling whole before that fucking thing does it [01:02:00] better.

[01:02:00] Chuck: Yeah.

[01:02:01] Ken: then what?

[01:02:02] Chuck: Yeah, I mean, that's true. and No, no, then, you know, and, and I, I think like, you know, I've done a lot of thought experiment around this and like, like, Either everything goes to shit, right? Because of the economic impact, right? It's just like an economic fucking nuke that just fucks everything up and then Millions of people die. Or it like, it just, if this thing gets like, autonomous, right?

[01:02:34] Ken: Like that's like the birth of like a new kind of life, right? That's like machine life. And like, what is that different from that to us? Obviously like biological like materials and shit like that. But like if this thing gets birth and it has like a consciousness and it can like go and like program itself, program, other things, it has a collective consciousness, which is even crazier.

[01:02:56] Ken: The collective consciousness is like fucking way better

[01:02:58] Ken: than the bullshit we have. [01:03:00] instinct.

[01:03:00] Chuck: Yeah.

[01:03:02] Ken: have that kind of like,

[01:03:03] Chuck: Yeah.

[01:03:06] Ken: have like collective and, like, they all fuckin circle the drain or whatever the fuck. Like that kind of thing. But, like, you know, if these things go, and like they, they understand, like, materials, and they know how to build each other and shit, and they can replicate, and then they have goals and things like that, like, that's a whole new life form, and there's no fucking way they're not gonna kill all of us.

[01:03:22] Ken: So, like, Anyway, you slice a pie, like, millions and billions of people are gonna die,

[01:03:26] Ken: like, they,

[01:03:26] Ken: people think, like, oh yeah, it's gonna be this, like, sick utopia where, like, I'm gonna hang out, I'm gonna be, like, the town bard and fucking play acoustic guitar and fucking, 3D print steaks and everybody's getting their dick sucked.

[01:03:36] Ken: That's not how it's gonna go.

[01:03:38] Chuck: no.

[01:03:40] Chuck: Yeah, that's true. That's probably more likely.

[01:03:42] Chuck: The Skynet over

[01:03:43] Chuck: idiocracy. ditch effort, you get, like, your, like, brain, like, replicated into the robot and then, like, you have, like, these, like, creative robots that, like, creates the content for these fucking things.

[01:03:54] Ken: Yeah,

[01:03:54] Ken: I don't want to be immortal.

[01:03:56] Chuck: Yeah, Actually,

[01:03:57] Ken: you know what? I'll tell you

[01:03:58] Ken: what.

[01:03:59] Robbie: But [01:04:00] that even

[01:04:00] Ken: I think that modern society has gone far enough in solving every problem that we've had like up until this point. I think that and then this might sound crazy, but I think that I don't think any like very rarely do people experience like true joy or happiness anymore.

[01:04:25] Ken: And there's a reason for it. The reason for that is that you have to have, like, extreme hardship in order to recognize that other, that, like, emotional pull. Right? So, like, if you're operating, like, mid tier all the time, which actually, as software engineers, right, we're, like, pretty handsomely compensated, we live comfortable lives, right?

[01:04:43] Ken: Like, we're, like, artificially, like, mid tier fucking emotional experience most of the time. Like, I remember, like, you know, and the thing that I don't really understand is, like, is it, is it youth? Was it just youth? Or right when like when like I actually had [01:05:00] problems like I like like The best thing in the world ever could happen to me today And i'd be less excited than when I was like 18 and on drugs and fucking won a crossword lottery ticket Do you know like

[01:05:13] Ken: like you remember like like hitting a crossword you're like motherfucker hundred dollars

[01:05:17] Robbie: Yeah.

[01:05:19] Ken: just you lose your fucking mind That's right, that's right, yeah, you fucking,

[01:05:25] Ken: you hit up your boy, you're

[01:05:26] Chuck: that. Yeah.

[01:05:28] Robbie: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It is a lot harder to get that joy now when like, you know, your salary is exponentially higher and it's like, what do I even want anymore? Because like, yeah, back in the day, like if I could buy a couple rounds of drinks at the bar, it's like, that's a good night. Like, cool. But like now it's like, you know, what am I trying to get?

[01:05:49] Robbie: Like house? Like I've got a big enough house. I don't fucking

[01:05:53] Ken: These guys who want

[01:05:53] Ken: to be billionaires, it doesn't make sense.

[01:05:55] Ken: Like, I've, like, you

[01:05:56] Ken: know, I've, I've, I've ascended pretty

[01:05:58] Robbie: Yeah,

[01:05:58] Ken: good for, you know, what I [01:06:00] ever thought I would make. And I think that, like, the point where it stops being, like, necessarily gratifying, Is when the bills are paid Like you can lifestyle fucking adjust to make your bills more expensive

[01:06:14] Chuck: Yeah, yeah,

[01:06:15] Robbie: Yeah,

[01:06:15] Chuck: like kick that down and

[01:06:17] Chuck: push that line much further and, or goals or hardships or failures, like, what does that leave you?

[01:06:25] Chuck: Hmm.

[01:06:25] Robbie: yeah, you can't learn without failures.

[01:06:28] Chuck: I feel like that's a philosophical though that isn't necessarily only about AI. It's not just AI, it's an indictment of

[01:06:36] Chuck: little more, possibly.

[01:06:38] Ken: It's just this

[01:06:39] Ken: thing is just has the capability to accelerate it much further and faster.

[01:06:44] Chuck: See. I didn't know we were going to get this deep.

[01:06:48] Ken: This is on you.

[01:06:49] Robbie: Ha

[01:06:49] Chuck: I gotta, I gotta admit.

[01:06:51] Robbie: Yeah,

[01:06:52] Chuck: I know, it is.

[01:06:53] Robbie: I mean We at least have enough whiskey, well I have enough I don't. for the next many years Cause I don't drink all of mine

[01:06:59] Chuck: Oh, [01:07:00] right, yeah. So, okay, so that just means, well, there will be a part three. I'm certain of that. We can talk about that a little bit in person before you know it. I'm almost advocating for Ken, you and I, go to Virginia and help Robbie out and we'll do it in person.

[01:07:16] Robbie: me out with what?

[01:07:17] Chuck: All the

[01:07:18] Ken: have too much. I know, Oh ok, no I to come down there and take care of you.

[01:07:23] Chuck: he is, yes, he needs our help.

[01:07:26] Ken: Do you not drink after work?

[01:07:28] Robbie: we, yeah, no, I, I like drink for the podcast and then I drink if people like come over,

[01:07:33] Chuck: Yeah, no, yeah.

[01:07:34] Robbie: I don't drink every day.

[01:07:35] Ken: single day. Do you?

[01:07:38] Robbie: Yeah, I give a, every time someone visits me, I give

[01:07:42] Robbie: them like two or three bottles of

[01:07:44] Robbie: whiskey. So

[01:07:44] Chuck: Yeah. old's your kid?

[01:07:47] Robbie: what's that? He's almost two.

[01:07:51] Ken: Get in there.

[01:07:55] Chuck: I know. Yeah,

[01:07:58] Ken: You're getting

[01:07:58] Ken: there. more drinking may be a [01:08:00] thing but,

[01:08:01] Chuck: yeah, we're

[01:08:02] Robbie: see

[01:08:02] Robbie: I also just like would rather go to a mexican restaurant and have a huge margarita than drink my whiskey So it's like

[01:08:08] Robbie: i'm still

[01:08:08] Robbie: drinking. It's just not i'm not drinking all my whiskey

[01:08:11] Ken: throwing the menu off the table breaks a glass You're like, oh, I'm so sorry. You're like fuck Yeah

[01:08:18] Chuck: yeah,

[01:08:19] Robbie: Margaritas are magical though. They have like way more sugar than they should like balances out the alcohol and you just feel amazing afterwards

[01:08:28] Chuck: yeah,

[01:08:29] Ken: margarita things number one. Have you guys heard of Bartesian?

[01:08:35] Robbie: Yep, I have one but so I have the predecessor the like keurig one And I've been waiting for that motherfucker to

[01:08:41] Ken: really really good

[01:08:42] Ken: margaritas

[01:08:44] Ken: really like unbelievable margaritas I just ripped two bottles of Cuervo by making margaritas. And they have a spicy margarita now, which is even better. Ugh. Like, like, my margarita experience for like the past, like, five years has been like middle of the [01:09:00] summer, right? We decided to do some day drinking and fucking just get shit faced in the pool.

[01:09:04] Ken: And, like, it's been like, oh, let's, let's feel like a blender. With ice cubes and do this and then it gets all like fucking warm and shit and like you drink like the last thing you're like, right? Like, but like this like single serve margarita thing is unbelievable, right? It's like you don't have like the pot of coffee problem.

[01:09:20] Ken: Second, I was in New York.

[01:09:23] Chuck: Hmm.

[01:09:23] Ken: Not last night. I came home last night, but the night prior I stayed the night I was in New York for Monday and Tuesday and they had a margarita at the hotel bar that was un fucking believable. It had pomegranate puree. And like a spicy, like, berry rim. I came in there all fuckin on my tough guy shit.

[01:09:50] Ken: I was like, maker's neat, right? Drank a couple of those, had a plate of wings. And then I was like, ah, you know what, let's It would be [01:10:00] courteous to try one of their signature drinks. This man looks like he's in the business of bartending. I'm sure he wants to make one. You know. Not just pouring glass.

[01:10:08] Ken: I was like, more than that.

[01:10:09] Ken: on here?

[01:10:09] Ken: And he's like, oh, there's this and that and a margarita. I'm like, you know what? Let's try the margarita. I had fucking three of them. And then I was just stumbling. I

[01:10:17] Chuck: so

[01:10:17] Ken: much. Do you guys like Mezcal?

[01:10:20] Chuck: they are tasty. If you get a good one, yes, like that also, yes.

[01:10:25] Ken: Yeah.

[01:10:26] Chuck: See, we can go down this path quite some

[01:10:29] Robbie: Yeah.

[01:10:30] Robbie: Yeah. I do need to actually go and have some dinner with my children though.

[01:10:34] Chuck: I want to keep, Usually that's my line because I'm on the East Coast and Chuck is not. But Chuck is over here, so yeah. Is there anything you want

[01:10:42] Robbie: mention before we end, Ken?

[01:10:45] Ken: do I have anything I want to plug or mention? I'm trying to think if any of my friends have any things, like startups or anything, or bullshit I should say. No. I don't think so. I don't think I'm plugging anything. I think that [01:11:00] if you're going to drink water, it should be Topo Chico.

[01:11:03] Chuck: you go. Hell yeah. is brought to you by Topo Chico and React Miami, where if you use the code No, I won't. Ken will buy you a shot.

[01:11:15] Robbie: That's actually what it's good for.

[01:11:17] Robbie: Yeah,

[01:11:17] Ken: But

[01:11:18] Ken: before we

[01:11:18] Ken: get off, can I tell you a quick React Miami

[01:11:20] Ken: story that's really funny? We're talking like the order of like three to four minutes, not even. So, last

[01:11:27] Ken: React Miami, I, I I guess a lot of people got there like the day before or something, right? And I, I, I roll in, it's like midday. And I get to like the hotel where all the speakers are staying and there's like these little couches and shit and like, I knew exactly, like immediately that these were my people because they're all sitting there clothed and with laptops and backpacks everywhere.

[01:11:50] Ken: I'm like, okay, what's up guys? So like you know, they're, they're drinking lightly and I was like, guys, it's time to drink heavily. So I roll up [01:12:00] and, proceed to drink heavily. Get some of them to go in the hot tub. We're in the hot tub, we're drinking and having a good time and everything like that. So, you know, it's, it's like nearing the time when everybody's gonna go get ready for the speaker dinner and everything.

[01:12:14] Ken: So I'm like, alright, alright, I'm gonna go hit my room. I'm also gonna hit you guys up in a little bit. See you over there. Get back to my room. And, you know, I did that thing, like, when you get back to your room and you're in there, you're like, whew. Right, like, come in with my bag, put all my shit away. I'm like, alright, I'm gonna get kinda drunk and shit, so I'm just gonna lay down for a second, right?

[01:12:32] Ken: Wake up, like, one in the morning. And I have like fucking like 36 missed calls. My wife is like, Do all these text messages, like it goes from like, Are you okay? I'm worried. Are you, did you like get fucking arrested or something? Da da da da da. And then it like shifts to anger. Fuck you, you motherfucker.

[01:12:49] Ken: And I call her up, I'm like, I'm like, hey. I'm like, I'm like,

[01:12:54] Ken: I'm like, I know this is gonna sound crazy. I fell asleep. She's like, you fucking did it. I'm like, I know, I know, like, [01:13:00] drinking at the pool and just came up and fell asleep. it was like, this was like, you know, midnight, one in the morning.

[01:13:05] Ken: So I got to hang up with her. Went into the shower and fucking went out and got it, boy. So, yeah, I hope, I hope you guys are ready

[01:13:15] Robbie: Nice.

[01:13:15] Chuck: committed to the cause.

[01:13:17] Ken: You know, even if you pass out from day drinking, like you need to wake up like one in the morning

[01:13:20] Ken: and

[01:13:22] Ken: ride the

[01:13:23] Ken: lion. i'm gonna prepare by just drinking all day for like the week prior and

[01:13:27] Robbie: i'll be ready. Yeah

[01:13:29] Chuck: I've got the proper tolerance. Robbie's gonna have to get on it. I mean, you have my phone number, so.

[01:13:34] Robbie: Yeah, we'll probably see you at dax's house i'm guessing

[01:13:38] Chuck: Yeah. Ha ha ha ha

[01:13:41] Chuck: ha ha ha ha!

[01:13:44] Ken: Even, even if I don't have to, I'm going to tell, I'm going to have him sit there for like 10 minutes and then tell him that I did.

[01:13:49] Ken: Just because. Mm

[01:13:54] Robbie: yeah.

[01:13:56] Chuck: listens or not, so. be good.

[01:13:58] Robbie: we'll see

[01:13:59] Robbie: [01:14:00] Yeah,

[01:14:00] Chuck: it to the

[01:14:00] Ken: you've seen it.

[01:14:01] Chuck: you would've known this was coming.

[01:14:02] Ken: Sorry,

[01:14:02] Ken: bud. New house too?

[01:14:04] Chuck: Yeah.

[01:14:05] Robbie: Yeah.

[01:14:06] Ken: I broke the

[01:14:08] Chuck: Not anymore. Broken in, bro.

[01:14:10] Ken: shitter feet from the other. I don't know what to like glean from Twitter, but it's just like, it sounds like he walked down the street

[01:14:18] Ken: He said that, he said the new house. is like the

[01:14:19] Robbie: find out

[01:14:20] Robbie: more.

[01:14:20] Ken: adjacent house. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:14:24] Chuck: Yep.

[01:14:25] Robbie: Yeah. Like that seems insane, but

[01:14:27] Robbie: okay.

[01:14:28] Ken: them, I don't think. So,

[01:14:29] Ken: I think it's like a rental situation. So, it's like, it's plausible that the same person owns

[01:14:33] Ken: the it's just like slightly better. Okay.

[01:14:36] Ken: I don't know.

[01:14:37] Robbie: Yeah.

[01:14:39] Ken: I don't, I'm not tapped

[01:14:40] Ken: into the Miami real estate market.

[01:14:41] Ken: Why don't you fellas go eat some fuckin food with your kids? I'm gonna go do the same.

[01:14:46] Robbie: yeah, Later, gators.

[01:14:48] Chuck: Alright, we'll see you soon.

[01:14:50] Robbie: Yeah.

[01:14:50] Robbie: Peace.

[01:14:52] Chuck: Ciao.