175: Decentralized Identity: The Future of Privacy and Security with Angie Jones

[00:00:00] Robbie Wagner: Hey, what’s up everybody? Welcome to Whiskey Web and Whatnot, which

[00:00:03] Chuck Carpenter: you might have heard the past few were Wine Web and Whatnot, but we’re back. We are back with I really hope I really hope Todd isn’t listening on the live stream right now. I’m sure he has nothing else to do and he’s watching us. We have nothing but respect for you, for the few.

[00:00:15] I know what the rules are. Apologies.

[00:00:18] Robbie Wagner: Yeah.

[00:00:18] Chuck Carpenter: So

[00:00:19] Robbie Wagner: Yes, we have a special guest with us, Angie Jones. What’s going on, Angie?

[00:00:23] Angie Jones: Hey, how’s it going?

[00:00:25] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, good, good. Thanks for coming on. Would you like to give a few sentences about who you are and what you do?

[00:00:29] Angie Jones: Oh, wow. Okay, yeah. I’m Angie Jones. I’m the Head of Developer Relations for TBD, which is a business unit in Block, formerly known as Square.

[00:00:39] So, we’re a fintech company, and my business unit focuses on open source technologies to help, , move money. Across countries, so across the border,

[00:00:52] Chuck Carpenter: money

[00:00:52] Angie Jones: movement.

[00:00:53] Chuck Carpenter: Interesting. Are you hiring?

[00:00:55] Angie Jones: We’re not right now.

[00:00:57] Chuck Carpenter: I just asked for Chuck, I’m looking out for him. Yeah, yeah, [00:01:00] you would never hire Robbie, but you know, I think we, I think we could make magic together.

[00:01:05] Anyway, you

[00:01:06] Robbie Wagner: want to tell us about the whiskey? Sure,

[00:01:07] Chuck Carpenter: yes. Uh, so today’s special whiskey is we’re bringing it back to a couple years ago. So Robbie and I made a barrel pick. At Sagamore Rye, this is a, , barrel proof. And normally I would like read and hold this up, but, uh, it’s 110 proof. Oh, wow. Um, let’s see here, so that’s 55%.

[00:01:26] Mash Bill is Rye, and I don’t recall if it’s age stated. It’s, it is. As I quickly look. I think it’s, I think the little tag right there says age 7 years. Yes, there you go. Aged 7 years. So, uh, yeah, it’s, it’s one near and dear and special to us. You’re not local here, are you? No. Oh, okay. I used to

[00:01:44] Angie Jones: live here.

[00:01:45] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah? Yeah. Not anymore. We’ll talk about the rest of that offline, but just curious. Alrighty, let me pour for the lady first.

[00:01:53] Angie Jones: Okay. Thank you. Can’t

[00:01:54] Chuck Carpenter: see. I don’t know where we’re going, but hopefully that’s enough. I just fill up the cup, is that good or no? [00:02:00] Uh, yeah, if you want to be dead, that’s a great amount.

[00:02:03] Angie Jones: Oh, that smells so good.

[00:02:04] Chuck Carpenter: Well, what we’re going to do next is, uh, I know you’re an avid listener of the show, but, uh, just to, for the others who may be listening now, , so we will smell it and do a taste. We’ll do, , a rating of it just based on your own context. It’s not that serious, but it is 0 to 8 tentacles.

[00:02:22] So 0 being horrible, I never want this again. 4 is middle of the road. 8 was amazing, clear the shelves. Feel free to categorize it any way you want. Robbie and I have had so many whiskeys, so we tend to be like, Oh, this is Rye’s. And whatever else, you can push it together with whiskeys, or just alcohol and drinking in general.

[00:02:42] There are no rules there, so. Okay.

[00:02:44] riverside_robbiethewagner_raw-synced-video-cfr_whiskey_web and wha_0270: Yeah.

[00:02:45] Chuck Carpenter: I’m smelling

[00:02:46] Robbie Wagner: heavy notes of the cup disintegrating with this in it. Tell me if you’re also getting that.

[00:02:51] Chuck Carpenter: Imagine what it does to your intestine. This

[00:02:54] riverside_robbiethewagner_raw-synced-video-cfr_whiskey_web and wha_0270: is

[00:02:54] Chuck Carpenter: a

[00:02:55] riverside_robbiethewagner_raw-synced-video-cfr_whiskey_web and wha_0270: compostable

[00:02:55] Chuck Carpenter: cup. Yeah, but imagine what it’s doing to you internally, potentially, with that. I don’t know, I [00:03:00] do wonder from time to time, but never enough to stop drinking.

[00:03:03] So that’s the funny aspect of it. Yeah, um, let’s see, what do I actually smell? There is a little cup smell there, so I, I, you’re not totally wrong. Yeah, yeah. The plastic kind of gets to you, but, I don’t know, are you picking up any other notes, Andrew?

[00:03:15] Angie Jones: I smell like a hint of sweet.

[00:03:17] Chuck Carpenter: Yes. Yeah.

[00:03:19] Angie Jones: It smells really good.

[00:03:20] It really does. I can’t stop smelling. It’s like really good.

[00:03:23] Chuck Carpenter: It’s a woody honey. Yeah, maybe more of that. Because I’m getting like a toasty sugar and I was going to say just kind of wood and honey. But toasted marshmallow makes more sense to me. a sippy sip. Alright. Don’t be, don’t be scared.

[00:03:36] Angie Jones: Oh, wow. Yum. I think it’s pretty smooth.

[00:03:40] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, it is pretty good. It does not taste like the cup, so that’s good. So the first drink kind of primes your salivatory glands to start kind of coming up and giving you this protection and coat from heavy alcohol.

[00:03:52] riverside_robbiethewagner_raw-synced-video-cfr_whiskey_web and wha_0270: Oh. So

[00:03:53] Chuck Carpenter: then you’ll get some of that burn, so you give that a second, and then you can kind of come back for your second.

[00:03:57] Then you can come back? Yeah.

[00:03:58] Angie Jones: Alright. [00:04:00] Oh, wow. The body’s amazing. Yeah, it really is.

[00:04:03] Chuck Carpenter: It’s so smart in how

[00:04:05] Angie Jones: You’re right. It wasn’t a barn the second time.

[00:04:10] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, it’s just fun. We learned that at Greenbrier. Yeah, in Nashville. Wow. We were doing a distillery tour and one of their things they’re tasting. that was what, maybe three, four years ago?

[00:04:22] I’m 47. Yeah, back when we had a successful business, I think. Well, there’s that. We do have one. It’s called Whiskey Web and Wine. That’s true. Yeah, success is relative. Yeah, smoother. For 110 proof, you expect a lot more punch. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. It’s got a nice hug and burn, but nothing that’s like prohibitive to enjoying.

[00:04:41] Uh, yeah. A little bit of Big Red in there, maybe. Cinnamon kind of thing. The soda. No, I’m just kidding. Just kidding. Wait, do you know Big Red the soda? He makes fun of me every single time. Yeah, I know Big Red. Yeah, I’m like, I say Big Red the soda.

[00:04:54] riverside_robbiethewagner_raw-synced-video-cfr_whiskey_web and wha_0270: The soda.

[00:04:55] Chuck Carpenter: I don’t, I’ve never seen the soda. Yeah. Thank you.

[00:04:58] Okay. All right. [00:05:00] I’m like, it’s a thing. I grew up in Northern Kentucky, like Cincinnati area. We had big red soda. Where’d you grow

[00:05:09] Angie Jones: up?

[00:05:09] Chuck Carpenter: Virginia.

[00:05:11] Angie Jones: Okay. I’m from New Orleans.

[00:05:13] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah?

[00:05:13] Angie Jones: Yeah.

[00:05:14] Chuck Carpenter: Okay. Maybe it’s just a slightly more west thing. Yeah, I don’t know, Midwest to the coast? Yeah, I’m not sure. The entire Mississippi River gets it.

[00:05:23] Yeah, possibly. Yeah, so the Ohio connects to the Mississippi right on down. And that is the birth of the bourbon trade. Mmm. Yes, so the whiskey up from Kentucky, they were trying to sell it downriver. I don’t remember how the charred barrel thing happened, but the aging started to happen because they were just tons of corn around there, they were making spirits.

[00:05:44] People started to hear about Kentucky whiskey and kind of wanted to try it more and the trade was all the way down the Mississippi River and the time even in just the short time that it would take to ship it down It would age some in the barrels and it was better When it got down south.

[00:05:59] riverside_robbiethewagner_raw-synced-video-cfr_whiskey_web and wha_0270: Yeah,

[00:05:59] Chuck Carpenter: [00:06:00] and so they were like, wait a minute.

[00:06:01] Maybe there’s something to that That just kind of started that whole industry Fun fact this is right there so there’s nothing Yeah,

[00:06:11] do we want to give it a rating I think we should. Do you mind going first? Just because we’ve had this a couple of times. Okay,

[00:06:17] Angie Jones: I’ll go first, but I will also say that I’m not a whiskey drinker, so I don’t have much to compare it to.

[00:06:22] But, I’m from New Orleans. We know, we know booze.

[00:06:27] riverside_robbiethewagner_raw-synced-video-cfr_whiskey_web and wha_0270: Yeah.

[00:06:29] Angie Jones: So, I’m gonna, I’m gonna give it, six, actually. I

[00:06:32] Chuck Carpenter: think that’s pretty solid. Okay. I’m sure we’ve rated this before, and I don’t remember what it was, but I’d probably a 7 or so. Context matters, anyway. I’m not afraid of my previous reviews, and it’s less good in this cup, for sure.

[00:06:45] This cup is not the

[00:06:46] riverside_robbiethewagner_raw-synced-video-cfr_whiskey_web and wha_0270: best.

[00:06:47] Chuck Carpenter: I like that it’s got some punch. If I’d not had, like, part of two bottles of wine preceding this, like, I’d be real happy that I was crushing that, and like, starting the drinking this way, but that’s not the whiskey’s fault. I don’t know, I’m really [00:07:00] enjoying it. Like, I think in spite of all of that.

[00:07:02] I don’t know, seven and a half to eight? Like, this is great. Oh, wow. Wow. Wow. Well, I have recommended this whiskey in general, like the Sagamore Rye, which is like 40 bucks, you can get all the time. Now, this is a barrel pick. Very approachable. Yeah. This is a whole extra special one. That said, I’ve not had one from them that hasn’t been good, so This is elevating even their normal expression.

[00:07:24] Uh, I’m gonna say eight. Here you go. Okay. I, I trust my own flavor palette and pick, so. Well, technically I picked it. You did. So you’re, that’s a compliment. Yeah, it’s true. Yeah. Oh, you didn’t even taste it. I’ll take it all back. Oh, four. Yeah, it’s a four actually. Robbie can’t be trusted. Only talk to me. But, anyway.

[00:07:41] Ugh. That’s true. I think, like, I remember when you were first drinking Sagamore a bunch, and I was like, Baltimore whiskey. Like, I don’t know. Man, what do you. What are you yanks trying to do here? I thought you can’t do it. eventually tried it myself. It’s like, yeah, this is good. Okay. I have, I must acquiesce on this and, uh, I don’t know.

[00:07:58] Here we are. I just [00:08:00] gave it an eight. All right. All right.

[00:08:02] So what I am curious about is how would I buy this with the JSON

[00:08:05] Robbie Wagner: web token? Yes. I’m very curious about that.

[00:08:09] Angie Jones: Yes. Okay. Get into the good stuff. So, you know, that, JSON web tokens. typically used for like authorization on a website, right? Signing in.

[00:08:22] So, you know, once you sign in, the server will, you know, maybe give job to your clients who get didn’t reuse that, , on subsequent requests to the server. So you don’t have to authenticate every time you send a request to the server. So, W3C has come up with a open standard called Verifiable Credentials,

[00:08:46] and

[00:08:46] these Verifiable Credentials are basically a special type of JWT that, , in the payload part of the JWT, the JWT has three parts, the header, the payload, the signature.

[00:08:57] The payload part is just JSON, [00:09:00] right? And so you can put whatever you want in that JSON, and Verifiable Credentials uses that JSON part. To make claims about someone, right? So, have you all heard of mobile driver’s licenses? This is relatively new. Yeah, I’ve seen it in a couple of places. Yeah, a couple of places.

[00:09:19] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, like you mean just on your app?

[00:09:22] Angie Jones: Just mobile driver’s license. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. There’s 13. I have one. You have one? Yeah. What state are you in? Arizona. Okay, there’s 13 states right now in the U. S. And everyone, I, every time I tell someone this, I have to like raise the number because it’s increasing pretty quickly, but there’s 13 states right now in the United States, , that have mobile driver’s license.

[00:09:43] I’m, , in Louisiana and we were one of the first ones. And we actually, if I must say, we don’t get a lot of things, right. We got this one, we got this one, right. we had a company that built an entire app. So a mobile driver’s license app. But it contains a lot of [00:10:00] stuff. So, this is a private company that’s connected to our government.

[00:10:04] They worked hand in hand with the government to build this solution out. But they have, , real time government data about me. So, say for example, if I wanted to order that whiskey from a delivery service app, DoorDash or something like that. Right? Instacart or something. Then they need to know that I’m a legal drinking age 21, but how do I provide that information right now?

[00:10:29] It’s really hard to do that with just your physical ID like either you got to take a picture and upload it or the delivery driver needs to verify your ID when they get there. I feel like that’s a lot of pressure On a delivery driver who like

[00:10:45] Chuck Carpenter: the humans are flawed

[00:10:46] Angie Jones: humans are flawed and I have three other orders in my car I’m, just I just wanted to drop your bag off and keep going.

[00:10:53] Yeah, I forgot to check your id Now I might lose my job. The company is liable the liquor store that [00:11:00] we bought it from might be liable So it’s it’s a really risky transaction Yeah, so these mobile driver’s license are using the verifiable credentials so they can send a job To the delivery app when I’m ready to order to basically make a claim that says yes, she is 21 or older.

[00:11:20] Chuck Carpenter: Oh yeah, without ever actually having to verify on their own. Without having to verify on their own. There’s

[00:11:25] Angie Jones: a trusted source. There’s a trusted source. Oh, that’s clever. I like this. There’s a trusted source. And they don’t, it’s privacy preserving, so they don’t need to give them my whole ID or anything like that.

[00:11:34] They don’t even need to give them my date of birth. It’s like, you need to know that she’s 21. All you need is a Boolean.

[00:11:41] Chuck Carpenter: True.

[00:11:43] Angie Jones: So that’s how that works. I like it. Yeah, that’s cool.

[00:11:46] Chuck Carpenter: So does like DoorDash in your state actually just use this mobile ID app, or?

[00:11:51] Angie Jones: I don’t know if they do or not, but yeah, there’s, yeah, there’s companies that connect and the state has done a really great job.

[00:11:59] I really think it’s [00:12:00] a model use case for this technology because with the app, they basically connected to, , these different software systems, right. That can basically request this information. , and not just my mobile driver’s license. I have like, My covid vaccination cards in here, like, gun permits, like also like my vehicle registration, like a lot of different, , key, you know, pieces of documentation right here.

[00:12:27] Very handy in this, in this mobile driver’s license app. And they worked with the government to get laws in place to like help with the usage and the adoption. Right. So now in Louisiana, all businesses are required to accept. Mobile driver’s license. You can’t say, Oh, no, I don’t do that. You have to accept it, right?

[00:12:49] , and not only that, I hear people ask me about, , the cops because I can show this to the cops, right? If they pull me over for a speeding thing or something, right? [00:13:00] Yeah, right. But if you, if I hand them my phone now we’re getting into other territory where they can search, you know what I mean? So we put laws in place for that to a no touch policy.

[00:13:12] So you can scan it, you can eyeball it, but you can’t take my phone. That makes sense. Yeah.

[00:13:17] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. So what if your phone dies?

[00:13:20] Angie Jones: Okay. Somebody asked that, um, actually yesterday, like, where’s your phone? So the great thing about it, and some people get a little bit worried about this and like, no, I want my physical ID.

[00:13:30] This is not an exclusive or type of situation. So you can still use your physical ID and you have this for like convenience or whatever. So I have both. My physical and my digital. I kind of like that

[00:13:42] Chuck Carpenter: because I’m all like, uh, I don’t want to carry a Wallet, I don’t want to carry extra stuff. I love that. I can pay for stuff with my watch The phone has a lot of stuff covering in it.

[00:13:52] How many things do I want to put in my pockets? Zero Right, we’re getting there. We’re working on it. Yeah. Yeah, I wear the sling [00:14:00] bag So I don’t have to because in the desert is too hot for jackets all the time. So now I got it, you know, but I like that, like, except, it feels so incredibly progressive for government to do.

[00:14:11] Yeah. Because everybody believes that technology and government is always going to be 10 20 years behind. That’s right. There’s a bureaucracy along that line. So it’s amazing that they can actually, like, make this happen, show other states that look how easy this can be.

[00:14:26] Angie Jones: Exactly. And California just came out with theirs as well.

[00:14:30] And they did a hackathon with, , businesses to say like, show us, you know, what you would be able to do with this sort of technology. Cause there is like a kind of chicken and egg problem when it comes to adoption. So the governments are like, okay, well, if I go all out and invest in this, how do I get businesses to accept it?

[00:14:49] And, and the business are like, well, we’re not going to accept it until, you know, there’s a significant percentage of the population that actually uses this. So now you even have Apple and Google. [00:15:00] With their wallets.

[00:15:01] riverside_robbiethewagner_raw-synced-video-cfr_whiskey_web and wha_0270: Yeah.

[00:15:01] Angie Jones: Getting very heavily involved. Yeah. So they’re starting to like push really hard and help governments to get this stuff set up.

[00:15:09] Chuck Carpenter: That’s awesome. Yeah. I love that. Like the impetus there. And it is like very much a snowball effect too. Like once they start to be like a few very successful use cases, it just kind of goes and goes and goes from there. So, you know, in a way I’m alluding to technologies like this. legalization of marijuana.

[00:15:26] Should we get crazy? I mean, get a little, we got the whiskey out. Let’s do it. We can get

[00:15:30] Angie Jones: crate. I got some crazy story. I love crazy stories.

[00:15:33] Chuck Carpenter: This is how

[00:15:34] Angie Jones: crazy y’all want to get. I mean, I don’t want Todd to be

[00:15:38] Chuck Carpenter: unedited. So, yeah, yeah. Well, listen, Angie, I know you listened to the podcast all the time and then you can, yeah, you can, you can push this.

[00:15:46] Yeah. We want to be welcomed back here. Yeah. I do want to come back. Well, don’t, yeah. Don’t go like. We can’t bring a bong out right now or anything like that. Don’t do a bong or something. I don’t know. Is that what? Bong? Bong. Oh, or a bong. [00:16:00] To smoke. Yeah, a bong. To smoke with. Yes. Oh. Yes. Okay. That was a joke.

[00:16:04] Alright. Anyway. It was a bad one. Anyway. I’m right next to you, but with these monitors it makes it a little harder. And the third one, I start to lose my voice. So there’s that too. Okay. I’ll work on it. I’m going to elevate.

[00:16:14] Yeah. Tell it, tell us the story. All right.

[00:16:16] Angie Jones: I’m going to tell a story. I mean, all right.

[00:16:19] I need everybody to be a grown up

[00:16:20] Chuck Carpenter: here. We’ll try our best. I’m 47. I’m still working.

[00:16:25] Angie Jones: Okay. So there was this fascinating story and I can never talk about it with anybody cause I don’t want anybody to look at me sideways, but it’s like super fascinating. Yeah. So with this technology. Some folks in Louisiana, as well as Texas, who are, you know, elected officials, they went really hard on, , pornography.

[00:16:45] And they didn’t want children exposed to this, right? And so they wanted Pornhub to do age verification. And by us having this technology, they said, oh, that’s wonderful. So they required [00:17:00] Pornhub. To verify age and this is one way that you can do it So the way that it works even with the liquor case Is if I were to like try to order the liquor online, they would then Basically kind of talk to my mobile driver’s license app And request a credential that says i’m over 21 And it sends it back to that app.

[00:17:22] So they’re in communication with each other

[00:17:24] riverside_robbiethewagner_raw-synced-video-cfr_whiskey_web and wha_0270: All

[00:17:24] Angie Jones: right. Well, if you get a prompt on your phone that says oh You Pornhub wants to talk to your mobile driver’s license app. People started saying, oh no.

[00:17:35] Chuck Carpenter: Now, now somebody knows I’m doing it. Yeah. And they shut

[00:17:38] Angie Jones: it down.

[00:17:38] Chuck Carpenter: Oh, that’s funny. Now, remember

[00:17:39] Angie Jones: I told y’all this is privacy preserving.

[00:17:42] So no one is tracking your interactions or anything like that, but people were terrified of that. I see. And so usage on Pornhub dropped dramatically. In these two states because of that connection.

[00:17:56] riverside_robbiethewagner_raw-synced-video-cfr_whiskey_web and wha_0270: And

[00:17:56] Angie Jones: so people who work in this space, we’re now [00:18:00] arguing that maybe we should put the tokens on device versus in the app.

[00:18:05] That way, you know, I can share it without, you needed to connect to some other application, you know what I mean? So that’s a big discussion right now, but it got so bad and usage plummeted so badly that Pornhub. Band, Louisiana and Texas.

[00:18:24] riverside_robbiethewagner_raw-synced-video-cfr_whiskey_web and wha_0270: So I think it’s

[00:18:24] Angie Jones: still like banned right now in those two states. So they’re like, look, we’re not doing it.

[00:18:28] We’re not doing that whole JSON web token thing.

[00:18:32] Robbie Wagner: If you could tie it to the device somehow to where, I forget the acronym. The thing where you can, you can like scan your phone and it does shit. Yeah. What do you call that? The thing on the back, the like, chip? The infrared thing? No, no, it’s a built in chip, but like, if your hardware knew who you are, Yeah.

[00:18:49] Versus, then if your phone’s dead and you can like somehow low power still do that too, You could still be like, this is me. I know what you mean. Yeah. I mean, NFT comes to mind, but it’s not [00:19:00] NFT. NFC, NFC. Yeah, yeah, yeah. NRC? NFC?

[00:19:02] Chuck Carpenter: No, I don’t know, but I know what you mean. RCA? Yeah. Best Buy? No, okay. The dog in the megaphone?

[00:19:08] Anyways. It’s funny if you can’t always talk about this story, but this story is a very valid use of it. It is. It is. It is. Like, drink it like vices. I mean, porn is a form of entertainment. It’s for some, and whatever else. It’s realistic, it exists there. , and, even though maybe the adults don’t like it, it’s excellent for ensuring that adults only are accessing it.

[00:19:30] So, you know, it did solve the problem. Just went too far. Yeah. Maybe. But that,

[00:19:36] Angie Jones: that, I started wondering, okay, is this an education problem? I think it’s an education problem. Because, like, I know that they’re not tracking this stuff. But most people don’t know that, right?

[00:19:47] Chuck Carpenter: If I ever looked at Corn Hub, I

[00:19:49] Angie Jones: Corn

[00:19:49] riverside_robbiethewagner_raw-synced-video-cfr_whiskey_web and wha_0270: Hub?

[00:19:50] Is that what it’s

[00:19:51] Chuck Carpenter: called? If I, if I ever looked at that, and it asked me, like, access to something on my phone, I’m gonna freak out. I’m gonna be like, [00:20:00] Yeah, you’re just playing the app. If any app

[00:20:01] Robbie Wagner: says, yeah, would you like to allow me access? Hell nah. Like, what do you want access for? You don’t need that.

[00:20:07] like everything

[00:20:08] Chuck Carpenter: will be like, I need, you know, write access to your Gmail or maybe, maybe that’s wrong. A lot of this access, I’m

[00:20:13] Robbie Wagner: like, what do you need that for? Yeah,

[00:20:14] Chuck Carpenter: yeah, there’s sometimes you connect things and it sounds like it’s gonna read right to a bunch more things than you want. And I,

[00:20:20] Robbie Wagner: I usually am like, I don’t care because I’ve probably already, all my stuff is out.

[00:20:25] All my data’s been stolen enough times, like, who cares? But like, yeah, it’s

[00:20:30] Chuck Carpenter: still annoying. It’s not a data theft thing, but it’s a more of like, Can you broadcast? I’m looking at this. I don’t know.

[00:20:36] Angie Jones: And think about this app. It has connections to my government data. You know what I mean? Exactly who I am. I definitely can relate with people being terrified about, you know, having these two applications talk to one another, but it’s, it’s a very interesting use case. How do we go about this sort of thing? Like, how do we teach people that it’s [00:21:00] privacy preserving, make them comfortable enough with this sort of technology?

[00:21:04] , because you are not used to that. Anytime you’ve ever had to show your ID in your entire life, you’re showing a lot of information, right? , I talk about how, imagine you’re in line, like at a club, , and ladies usually relate to this one. But you’re in line at a club, you know, you’re looking cute. You got your makeup and stuff on and the bouncer is giving you like googly, creepy eyes.

[00:21:27] And then when I get to the door, he’s like, yeah, let me see your ID, babe. You know? And I got to basically show this man my full name, my home address.

[00:21:36] riverside_robbiethewagner_raw-synced-video-cfr_whiskey_web and wha_0270: You know what I mean? Like that’s

[00:21:38] Angie Jones: creepy. And that’s what we’re used to as a society. And now we’re saying, you don’t have to do that anymore. I know that you physically, like, can see all the details on your mobile driver’s license, but that’s not what we’re sharing, you know?

[00:21:52] I think

[00:21:53] Robbie Wagner: it needs to be fully transparent, of like, we’re only sharing this, we absolutely promise. And, and [00:22:00] also, because there’s, sometimes it’ll say that, but it really doesn’t mean that. It’s just like, you have access, and then there’s like a data leak, and everything’s public, and everyone’s like, well, I’m upset now.

[00:22:10] So yeah, it needs to be for real, for real about like, this is

[00:22:13] riverside_robbiethewagner_raw-synced-video-cfr_whiskey_web and wha_0270: what you got.

[00:22:13] Chuck Carpenter: But it is interesting because like the one aspect is, loaded question. Potentially, shouldn’t we trust that it’s a government agency making this exchange rather than for profit entity?

[00:22:29] That’s the one aspect of it. It’s never done anything wrong. I know it’s sort of like. But I mean, they also aren’t like, pooling your data for profit, which is what many companies would do. Companies take this, like when I’m sharing it with Google, or I’m sharing it with whatever else company, and they request free data.

[00:22:46] What I think is a lot more read write access than they may need in order to use my Google login. Then I kind of wonder, but in this instance, if it’s my state, you know, my resident state, and they’re just going to [00:23:00] tell, you know, Total Wine whether it’s a yes or no on this order, that feels like it should be a little easier.

[00:23:06] I mean, I guess I understand, like, again, I understand the Pornhub connotation, because You know, having, I, you know, my Pornhub account is not Chuck Carpenter.

[00:23:15] riverside_robbiethewagner_raw-synced-video-cfr_whiskey_web and wha_0270: Right.

[00:23:15] Chuck Carpenter: And, uh, it’s, it’s definitely a pseudonym. I don’t know. But, I mean, it would be, you know, all these things. Like, people make up fake online things, and when you finally, like, tie that real account to real you, that freaks people out, I think.

[00:23:29] Yeah. I am a real government version

[00:23:32] Angie Jones: of you, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah,

[00:23:34] Chuck Carpenter: like, Yeah, they just don’t understand. Does Pornhub know whether I am 18 or not? Or does Pornhub know now where my house is? So what are they going to mail there and resell? Sponsored by Bagadix. com I want that sponsor, I’ve actually messaged them.

[00:23:52] I know, I know. I, uh, that is a real site, bagofdicks. com. It’s little candy penises. And I have mailed them to [00:24:00] people that I want to troll and mess with. So, don’t give me your address. That’s the moral of that story. Um, anyway, I digress. The whole point is that, to a degree, there’s a big difference between sharing PII, Mm hmm.

[00:24:16] with Joe Schmoe, company, startup thing, whatever else, or even Google, and your government entity.

[00:24:22] riverside_robbiethewagner_raw-synced-video-cfr_whiskey_web and wha_0270: That’s right. And I may

[00:24:23] Chuck Carpenter: be a bit, I think it’s an education thing. I think it’s like, they don’t understand that it is a Boolean response, it isn’t me as a response.

[00:24:30] Angie Jones: But, the other thing here is, it’s JSON, the company writes it as they write it.

[00:24:36] I happen to know that my particular mobile driver’s license app. It’s just gonna do a Boolean. It’s gonna have like a field age over 21. Right. True. And that’s the extent of it. But, like, there could be a company that does put PII in the JSON. Yeah. Which is a, this is a bad thing to do. But who’s gonna say no?

[00:24:58] Wait,

[00:24:59] Chuck Carpenter: so in [00:25:00] that instance then, that’s an interesting point, especially at this time and whatever else, but like, if you have a state by state interpretation of what is safe versus a federal interpretation, well then that becomes like kind of a weird thing. If I’m a national company and I’m going to get a different response, from, you know, the 14 states that I accept this from, that’s a little weird for me to manage, but also I can take advantage of.

[00:25:27] That’s true. There should

[00:25:28] Robbie Wagner: be a

[00:25:28] Chuck Carpenter: standard that’s

[00:25:29] Angie Jones: the same everywhere. Yeah, so there is a standards body. So, , this is a W3C open standard. So there’s a body of folks from various companies that are all working together to kind of standardize, like the terms and things like that. And things like that. And of course, this is like a good practice.

[00:25:45] You don’t put PI in there. You, you know, be as discreet as possible. Only share information that’s requested. Nothing more, nothing less. Like these are guidelines, right? But it’s not even just governments that are issuing these credentials. [00:26:00] It doesn’t have to be tied to a mobile driver’s license. So we have, , universities, MIT.

[00:26:06] Issues, a digital diploma along with the physical diploma and that’s a verifiable credential.

[00:26:11] Chuck Carpenter: Is that on the blockchain? I think there’s is on the blockchain it’s not even a sarcastic response. because I do think that’s a very accurate like Deployment of that technology, right? Like yeah

[00:26:22] Angie Jones: now this technology you can or cannot use Blockchain So it’s tied to a decentralized identifier, and many of the decentralized identifiers are anchored on some blockchain.

[00:26:34] But my company, we have an open source SDK that issues credentials. We use decentralized identifiers, but we don’t use blockchain at all. Yeah, we use actually BitTorrent technology. Oh, okay. Isn’t that fun? That is fun.

[00:26:50] Chuck Carpenter: You can get, a, verifiable ID and a copy of the latest bootleg movie. A One stop shop. Yeah, one stop shop. Get all my [00:27:00] shoes. Oh, man. Or Photoshop, yeah. Photoshop’s what I used to back in the day. I mean, I never did that, but I had friends that would turn and steal, uh, and borrow. Yes, as someone with no money, I definitely paid the full price. Full Photoshop price to get it at all times.

[00:27:18] I didn’t learn and get to know Photoshop by Victoria and Tina. Yes, of course not. Yeah, that’s awesome. No, I mean, you know, it’s kind of like the scary, realistic future to a degree. And it’s kind of funny, too, on a couple of ends. One is, We freely give our information away to tons of entities without thinking about it.

[00:27:40] On a daily basis. Yeah. Because they don’t pop up and say, Are you sure you want to give us all your info? And you’re like, No, fuck no. I want to watch the thing. and Get the thing. Whatever I got to do. And then in these instances where we’re presented with like, maybe one level more of, you know, who and what we’re doing.

[00:27:57] We’re like, Oh, well, I don’t know. Maybe here.

[00:27:59] Angie Jones: [00:28:00] Right, right. I

[00:28:01] Chuck Carpenter: do think in many ways we’re like hindered by convenience as a society.

[00:28:06] Angie Jones: For sure.

[00:28:07] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. Because it’s been easy. And if there’s just even one barrier put before us that we should consider a choice and we’re all of a sudden like, Nope I’m out.

[00:28:15] Angie Jones: Yeah. Yeah. I saw someone say, even those, um, you know, in Europe, like they are really good about, do you want to accept these cookies? They’re tracking you, blah, blah, blah, blah. I saw someone, so it was like, yeah, I just always say yes. That’s just the easiest thing to do. You know? It is. And it is the easiest.

[00:28:33] It is the easiest.

[00:28:34] Robbie Wagner: And you don’t

[00:28:35] Chuck Carpenter: know what any of those companies are doing with that data. Right. You don’t. Right. Yeah, that’s the thing. Private entity versus the, you know. Yeah, but yeah, all my data’s out there, so I don’t care. Yeah, I have been masquerading as you for years.

[00:28:50] Robbie Wagner: I had a security clearance, you have to do all that shit, right?

[00:28:52] And then, like, months after I got it, the people that store all that data, like, hacked everything else. Oh my [00:29:00] god. Well, all

[00:29:00] Chuck Carpenter: my stuff’s been out there for a while, so like, I don’t really care. I definitely have partaken in, like, Coinbase, they were hacked, and Were they? I didn’t even know that. Oh yeah, because I get emails.

[00:29:10] I didn’t know anything. The emails you get from ? MetaMask support about logging into it’s it because I do the trick where it’s like, plus where I created the account. So it’s like my name plus Coinbase at Gmail. And I use like a bucketed email anyway. And so, yeah, that’s like slightly misspelling your name.

[00:29:30] Like in the old days when you would get mail, I mean, I

[00:29:32] Robbie Wagner: still

[00:29:32] Chuck Carpenter: get mail, but I throw it all the way.

[00:29:33] Robbie Wagner: But like,

[00:29:34] Chuck Carpenter: you’ve got mail,

[00:29:35] Robbie Wagner: you, you slightly misspell your name or give a different name that you need to go. I know who sold my information now. It’s the same thing. Yeah.

[00:29:42] Chuck Carpenter: Interesting. Interesting. Yeah, fun fact there.

[00:29:44] I’m just thinking, marinating. Yeah. Like, well, I, I, okay, I was just trying to decide whether, like, we want to keep going down, like, everybody sold you out, and your information is out there, and we’re all screwed. Well, let’s bring

[00:29:57] Angie Jones: it back positive. Yeah, yeah. There’s some, there’s some more, like, good [00:30:00] use cases for this, the verifiable credential thing.

[00:30:02] I do

[00:30:02] Chuck Carpenter: believe in this. I think this sounds awesome. It is. It’s

[00:30:05] Angie Jones: amazing. Like, Aruba. Rolled out a program.

[00:30:08] Chuck Carpenter: Jamaica, ooh, I wanna take you to the Neva Bahamas. You’re wondering how much of those lyrics I know? All of them?

[00:30:14] Angie Jones: All of them. Um, they rolled out a program this year that allows travelers to enter the country without a physical passport on them.

[00:30:24] Using these verifiable credentials. So, , I believe this is the first country, so everybody’s kind of watching them to see how it’s going. But they’re loving it. Like, They’re workers. What are the workers called that work at the like,

[00:30:37] Chuck Carpenter: Oh, uh, passport control. Yeah, those folks. Yeah. So

[00:30:41] Angie Jones: they’re like, Oh, this is so efficient.

[00:30:43] You know, think about like all of these different passports you’re getting from all these different countries. You need to want to make sure it’s even real. Is this the person blah, blah, blah, blah. So anyway, they’re loving it. They’re saying it’s like much more secure and efficient. And then, of course, for the travelers, they’re like moving like this.

[00:30:59] And so. , [00:31:00] that was a good use case. And then I saw, Oh, there’s pharmacists. They’re using it like getting medical stuff. So pharmacists, we’re using it to trade like drugs with each other. Right. So there could be like a pharmacist that’s in another part of the country that has some drugs that you need, you’re low on.

[00:31:18] And so you want to like maybe trade with them or buy it from them or whatever. So they were using. Credentials one to verify like this pharmacist is actually legit, but then to the drugs were legit as well And so those were like really interesting use cases and now I start to see like Problems everywhere that I want to kind of apply the tech to like for example the FTC Just put out a new rule saying that companies cannot post fake reviews

[00:31:47] Chuck Carpenter: Okay.

[00:31:48] Oh, that would be great. Isn’t that great? Because that’s such a problem. It is. It

[00:31:51] Angie Jones: is. Biometrically verifiable reviews. I mean, I want to get the dress, but like, does it really look good, you know? Like, are all these people lying? If you wash it,

[00:31:59] Robbie Wagner: does it disintegrate? [00:32:00] Yeah. Are this good? This diet pill? This works.

[00:32:02] Yeah, everything. Everybody

[00:32:04] Angie Jones: is saying, oh yeah, I lost 50 pounds in a month. And you’re like, this can’t be real. So which one of these are real and which ones aren’t and so I like the rule from the FTC But I was thinking like how are they going to enforce this actually, right? And so I could see where maybe when you print the receipt you also have a qr code on the receipt That’s a verifiable credential saying yes, you made this purchase, right?

[00:32:28] And so then if I want to leave a review I present that credential back to them And now we have verified credential. You don’t have to You Have a human being like actually review these, uh Yeah. Reviews to make sure they’re real. Oh yeah. Or whatever. You gotta

[00:32:43] Chuck Carpenter: keep humans out of this For sure. Yeah. So I wonder to a degree, so I mean, it sounds like you are obviously more comfortable going down this path of like, do you have, uh, global entry.

[00:32:55] riverside_robbiethewagner_raw-synced-video-cfr_whiskey_web and wha_0270: Yeah.

[00:32:56] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. So you see, and that’s biometric too. Mm-Hmm. . So [00:33:00] recently, the last times I’ve used it, I didn’t even have to sit in my passport there. Yeah. They just did my face and they got me. Yeah. And they were like, yeah, it’s you. You may go through. That’s right. And I was weirded out by that. I was weirded out when I did it with clear, you know?

[00:33:12] And I did the fingerprints, they do the biometric, they do like the retinal scan. Mm-Hmm. . And I was like, ah, I don’t know if I like this. But to the other hand is. I only have to not like this if, maybe if I’m doing something, I don’t know, I’m just wondering, like, I am uneasy about that. good, right? It didn’t feel

[00:33:30] Angie Jones: good in the beginning.

[00:33:32] I still get a little weirded out every time a new one pops up.

[00:33:35] riverside_robbiethewagner_raw-synced-video-cfr_whiskey_web and wha_0270: But then

[00:33:36] Angie Jones: once I’ve done it once, I’m like, alright, well I know them, they know me, obviously, and we’re cool. But, I don’t know if you saw it, some of the airline, , Like the gates, the actual gates to get on the plane, they started like taking a photo again, and I was like okay, I don’t like this.

[00:33:52] I got this far.

[00:33:53] Chuck Carpenter: Everyone has my info. Yeah, everybody

[00:33:55] Angie Jones: knows me, you know what I mean? Like, yeah, I don’t want to do it again.

[00:33:59] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, [00:34:00]

[00:34:00] Angie Jones: how many systems it’s gonna like take my picture? Yeah, we know

[00:34:02] Chuck Carpenter: we can’t trust the airline systems.

[00:34:04] Angie Jones: You know, it’s one thing, like you said, the government is one thing, but when it’s like Private company.

[00:34:10] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah.

[00:34:10] Angie Jones: I don’t know. I, I feel a little weird about it. I

[00:34:12] Chuck Carpenter: don’t know about clear having my biometric. It’s another thing when like global entry is saying you’re a citizen. We know you. Well, I trust a for profit company to hold my data better than the government.

[00:34:24] riverside_robbiethewagner_raw-synced-video-cfr_whiskey_web and wha_0270: Honestly,

[00:34:24] Robbie Wagner: uh, the government is pretty bad at doing things usually.

[00:34:28] , but I also wonder

[00:34:30] Chuck Carpenter: if you’ve got, you know, an app or whatever, is there any kind of an efficiency problem, you know? Sure.

[00:34:35] Robbie Wagner: Is, is there any kind of like This is gonna sound dumb cuz I’m not that technical but like a man in the middle attack of like I’ve got this app and this app and they’re gonna talk but I’m gonna say like I’m a 16 year old and I want to Buy alcohol so I’m gonna fake that I’m 21 somehow and like

[00:34:51] Angie Jones: yeah So the great thing about on the verifiable credentials, so I hinted at this earlier, so it’s a basically issued to this decentralized [00:35:00] identifier.

[00:35:00] Mm-Hmm, . Now that identifier is different than your username or something like that. The identifier actually has a public and private key pair. Okay? So there’s some cryptography involved in this, right? And so in order for me to present a. Credential. I have to prove that I’m the owner of the decentralized identifier that it was issued to, and the only way to prove that is with that private key.

[00:35:23] Okay. Which should be stored somewhere very secure. Yeah, theoretically. Now, if someone happens to get ahold of my private key and they have my credentials, they got me right?

[00:35:34] riverside_robbiethewagner_raw-synced-video-cfr_whiskey_web and wha_0270: Yeah. They got you. They can pretend to be at, they can I

[00:35:37] Angie Jones: impersonate me? But you can like, uh, rotate. The private keys on a decentralized identifier.

[00:35:43] So if I know that someone got me, I can just change it. Like I would change a password. Oh, yeah. Nice.

[00:35:48] Chuck Carpenter: That’s the thing. So there’s some things there and it takes you being slightly proactive, but I think a lot of companies and systems have that sort of like, Oh, , did you just log in in Russia?

[00:35:58] Angie Jones: Yeah. No, I did not.

[00:35:59] Yeah. It [00:36:00] turns out

[00:36:00] Chuck Carpenter: I’m not there right now. I’ll be there next week. Oh yeah. Two factor office saved me so many times. Yeah, that’s right. It’s like, Oh, you logged into your Microsoft account? I’m not. Actually, no, I haven’t touched that in a while. Uh, I love teams, but yeah, isn’t that your favorite? So yeah, teams is the best chat app.

[00:36:18] That’s my hot take.

[00:36:19] Angie Jones: Oh, wow. No, I did not.

[00:36:22] Chuck Carpenter: He’s we don’t know each other. This is how I make up for my inadequate. Uh,

[00:36:31] would anybody else like more coffee or? Are we okay? Uh, I’m all right. Yeah, I have to drive the car over here to pick up this stuff. So you should probably, yeah, you’re already very awake.

[00:36:40] Yes, Raleigh police, I am good. Who did walk by, I saw her coming up the stairs and I was like, well, good thing we have,

[00:36:49] Robbie Wagner: we have, uh, definitely opaque cups. Yeah.

[00:36:51] Chuck Carpenter: Anyway, fun fact, uh, speaking of government things, we’re trying to break the rules. So this happens.

[00:36:58] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. guess we [00:37:00] got in trouble one time at that conference.

[00:37:02] Angie Jones: Oh wow, what y’all do?

[00:37:03] Robbie Wagner: Well, uh, we were just told to do whatever we want and, uh, deal with the consequences as they happen. We have an offline and

[00:37:08] Chuck Carpenter: online story, so. Yeah, yeah, we the online one a little more like we were doing main stage shows and the third or fourth one, something like that. We saw a prompter about, please put the whiskey down, put the whiskey down.

[00:37:22] Oh wow, okay. And ATF

[00:37:26] Angie Jones: It all

[00:37:27] Chuck Carpenter: worked out. It happens. Yeah. Robbie just got out last month. No, no, that was like No, it wouldn’t have been us that got in trouble. It was the venue that got in trouble. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s a license thing. Which is the same thing here, yeah. Yeah, which is why we’ve done Wine, Web, and whatnot.

[00:37:44] Played by the rules. Yeah, played by the rules. Okay. Nothing wrong with that. Why is looking like Fresh, fly, all the time. And I’m an old dad who looks like shit all the time. That’s what I want to talk about. Do you

[00:37:57] Angie Jones: run? He runs. No, I don’t run. I [00:38:00]

[00:38:00] Chuck Carpenter: should run. You’re much more stylish than I am, Chuck.

[00:38:02] Okay, so I’m like, plus one you, and he’s like, plus 20, both of us.

[00:38:07] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, and he’s, he’s clearly knows about style and has like, and engaged in that pick things intentionally. Yeah. Whereas I go, this shirt is the one we’re giving to people. This is comfortable and these

[00:38:18] Chuck Carpenter: pants are very

[00:38:19] Robbie Wagner: stretchy, , and that’s how I pick my outfit.

[00:38:23] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. You know, sometime this is the what not portion. Well, we’ve been kind of whatnot a little bit, bit. Well, no, pretty technical I guess.

[00:38:29] Yeah, no, yeah. Which I do find the privacy thing and identity in the world because I think it’s like. We can’t stop that train. Yeah Nobody is staying out of that way and to a degree all of this stuff is going to become compulsory As it gets better.

[00:38:44] It’s just kind of like, you know where we’re going. Yeah. I mean

[00:38:47] Angie Jones: if you think about it, it’s really stupid. Um, Like I made a new. YouTube account and for my company, right?

[00:38:55] riverside_robbiethewagner_raw-synced-video-cfr_whiskey_web and wha_0270: and

[00:38:56] Angie Jones: oh we need you to take a picture of [00:39:00] your I. D. Y’all, I’m not even kidding. Like, it took me two days to get it accepted because I couldn’t take a good picture of this idea.

[00:39:10] Like, the idea is glaring. I’m all over my house trying to find good spot for lighting and like, Oh, you stand here, maybe put a shadow around. Like, it was horrible. And the whole time I know about this technology, I’m like, This is so stupid. Now, for one, I know, and because these credentials are reusable as well, like Google knows who I am.

[00:39:31] You know, me,

[00:39:34] riverside_robbiethewagner_raw-synced-video-cfr_whiskey_web and wha_0270: your

[00:39:34] Angie Jones: boy over there at YouTube,

[00:39:36] riverside_robbiethewagner_raw-synced-video-cfr_whiskey_web and wha_0270: that

[00:39:37] Angie Jones: Angie is good. And you can do that with a credential. So if they verify my identity once, they could say verified by Google. You know as a credential that I then could keep in my digital wallet And then when youtube and all these other like affiliate companies need to know this I can just Yeah, give them this JSON web token.

[00:39:58] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. Clear is kind of doing that. You can [00:40:00] verify yourself with clear on LinkedIn. Yeah. They’re getting

[00:40:02] Angie Jones: into this whole

[00:40:03] Robbie Wagner: credential business. Interesting. I didn’t realize that. I don’t verify on LinkedIn. It did take me

[00:40:08] Chuck Carpenter: 457 times of scanning my ID, but I got it. I do have an account with them cause I did it once at the airport.

[00:40:15] I can’t remember why. When they were like, even like pre check was super long. And I was like, if you want clear, come on. First time’s a free. And so I did it. And it’s free with Amex now or something now. Anyway, I did all the things. And then in retrospect, I thought about it a little more and I was like, I don’t know, I don’t think I’m going to have that account, but they already have my data already.

[00:40:35] It doesn’t save you a ton of time. It doesn’t. But yeah, but in this case it really was, it was like, Oh, it was doing my little, it’s pre check. I’m not checking bags. It’s 45 minutes. I just roll up. And that was like, Oh fuck,

[00:40:46] riverside_robbiethewagner_raw-synced-video-cfr_whiskey_web and wha_0270: this is a

[00:40:47] Chuck Carpenter: little different. Uh, and. Save me. Yeah, this dude saved me this time, and then I kind of thought about it from there, but

[00:40:55] Angie Jones: That goes back to that convenience, right?

[00:40:57] Yes. You’re like, oh no, I need help. Here’s all [00:41:00] my data, get me through the line. Yeah, and

[00:41:01] Chuck Carpenter: then if I go back and I have a little, like, oh, I Maybe I didn’t think that through . Yeah. I have a little regret here. I will sign a thing that says I access PornHub as I walk through . Yeah, exactly. When I, but I, I just used Robbie’s information.

[00:41:16] I was like, yes. Are you Robert Wagner? I have his, he, you know, whatever. I got a picture of his id. This is my address. Yeah. And here it is. And it worked out. So no one still knows. I I access my work. . It’s alright.

[00:41:30] Robbie Wagner: So, I was looking at your stuff earlier. Okay. I want to know, what is Web 5?

[00:41:35] Angie Jones: Yeah, okay. So Web 5 is Basically, our open source libraries that do this thing that I talked about, the verifiable credential, the decentralized identity and also has decentralized storage as well. , the name is kind of tongue in cheek.

[00:41:51] riverside_robbiethewagner_raw-synced-video-cfr_whiskey_web and wha_0270: ,

[00:41:51] it

[00:41:53] Angie Jones: was kind of more like, you know, remember I told you we don’t do the blockchain

[00:41:59] riverside_robbiethewagner_raw-synced-video-cfr_whiskey_web and wha_0270: thing. Yeah.

[00:41:59] Angie Jones: [00:42:00] But we do decentralization. And so people just like kind of assume it’s all blockchain. And so, you know, our thought was, what if we could do web three stuff, but with like web two technology. So it’s more like web two plus web three equals web five.

[00:42:21] So yeah, that’s, that’s what web five is.

[00:42:23] riverside_robbiethewagner_raw-synced-video-cfr_whiskey_web and wha_0270: Okay. But yeah, there’s open

[00:42:24] Angie Jones: source libraries that people can use. If you want to like issue credentials. You can do so the thing about issuing credentials. So like I said, this is open source. Anybody can issue credentials I can issue you a credential right now that says You’re the president of the United States. Forget voting. You’re going to be the president. Everyone

[00:42:42] Chuck Carpenter: early voted. I am Charles. This is the winner, right?

[00:42:46] Angie Jones: But the thing is,

[00:42:47] Chuck Carpenter: spoiler,

[00:42:49] Angie Jones: who am I to make such a claim? So that’s where it comes in when you’re accepting these credentials. It’s like, who made this claim?

[00:42:57] Chuck Carpenter: Are

[00:42:58] Angie Jones: they a trusted source to [00:43:00] make such a claim? Right. And

[00:43:02] riverside_robbiethewagner_raw-synced-video-cfr_whiskey_web and wha_0270: yeah,

[00:43:02] Angie Jones: and so you can even specify this stuff. So like, The person who verifies it, before they get the credential, to request the credential they need to provide. a different JSON, which is a definition of what are you expecting here? What do you want?

[00:43:17] And so they would provide, like, I need to know if she’s over 21. I’m looking for like basically a term that says this with a Boolean value and you say, okay, yeah, sure. And you issue the credential, the, to meet that, requirement or whatever. But you can also specify like, okay, Let’s say like, I’m a Java champion, right?

[00:43:37] no, let’s not take that. I am one, but let’s take that one away. So I’m certified in Java. That comes from Oracle certification. Now, anybody could like,

[00:43:46] Chuck Carpenter: say that anybody

[00:43:48] Angie Jones: can say it and anyone can like issue these things, right? But what if I’m saying like, no, I want people who are certified in Java, but I, it only can come from Oracle so that I can put like [00:44:00] Oracle decentralized identifier and say.

[00:44:02] The credential must be issued by this ID. Oh,

[00:44:06] riverside_robbiethewagner_raw-synced-video-cfr_whiskey_web and wha_0270: okay. You know,

[00:44:07] Angie Jones: and that can be an array, you know, if there’s a couple of folks that do that sort of thing, you can say, okay, any one of these that would be okay with me. Okay. Yeah.

[00:44:16] Chuck Carpenter: That’s interesting that, I mean that, well, you did a great, uh, great job of answering what was going to be my next question as soon as you said, like, , that you had this open source, like repo collective around this, , because I would wonder like, Oh, this is great for governments and states and like, What’s sort of the barrier to entry?

[00:44:34] riverside_robbiethewagner_raw-synced-video-cfr_whiskey_web and wha_0270: Yeah. And

[00:44:34] Chuck Carpenter: that’s what I was gonna ask next, Is sort of like, I’m starting a business.

[00:44:38] riverside_robbiethewagner_raw-synced-video-cfr_whiskey_web and wha_0270: Mm hmm.

[00:44:39] Chuck Carpenter: I need some of these things. What would have me lean towards these technologies? Maybe when I’m early days. Yeah. Versus the government or versus Uber or whatever else.

[00:44:48] Angie Jones: Let’s take the, the receipt, the reviews one.

[00:44:51] Cause that’s a, that’s one that’s like applicable to a lot of businesses, right? There’s a

[00:44:55] Chuck Carpenter: lot of shit to clean up exactly with that. Yeah,

[00:44:58] Angie Jones: exactly. So let’s say like [00:45:00] I’m just a company that sells stuff and I want to issue these credentials because if the FTC comes and audits me and they say, are these reviews real?

[00:45:08] I can say, yes, I actually issued credentials upon receipt, right? Okay, great. So I get the web five SDK to issue a credential. We have a package in there called web five credentials. So with that, I use the verifiable credential class. I say dot like create, and then I just specify like, what is my decentralized identifier?

[00:45:30] I do need the decentralized identifier of the person. So with that, there’s a little bit of a hurdle. Like one, you need to kind of understand that you might need to create the credential for your user. Do you give it to them? Then you just kind of keep it in a database with their log in or something like that.

[00:45:47] I don’t know. So that’s something people need to think through. , but other than that, I just didn’t issue it. I sign it with my private key of my decentralized identifier. I get a job back from [00:46:00] that, and I just kind of encode that as a QR code on the receipt. So it’s pretty straightforward. I think probably the hardest part with The management of the, the IDs.

[00:46:11] Chuck Carpenter: You’re right. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, because those can change over time, right? If I decide at some point I want to go to the centralized, , issuer of the credentials, I can say, , I’m concerned about security. I just want to reject all these credentials and restart the process of each of those places. What would that look like if I just felt like I didn’t, I, you know, but like if, uh, my private key is different now, let’s go.

[00:46:36] No, no, no, your private key is different,

[00:46:39] Angie Jones: but that’s okay. You keep the same ID. Yeah. So with the ID, you also have this URI, and the URI is the part that goes in the credential.

[00:46:47] riverside_robbiethewagner_raw-synced-video-cfr_whiskey_web and wha_0270: Okay.

[00:46:47] Angie Jones: So that’s just like, that would be if that was your username or something like that. Yeah. And then the private key would be like, that’s your password.

[00:46:53] Yeah. So you change your password as much as you want, but the username stays. So it’s this and

[00:46:56] Chuck Carpenter: here. Oh, okay. So it’s a little bit different. So if this is compromised [00:47:00] or this is compromised, you’re kind of fine. It doesn’t really matter.

[00:47:03] Angie Jones: Yeah. People are going to have your, , the username part of the public.

[00:47:07] He’s a free public key. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Interesting. Yeah.

[00:47:12] Chuck Carpenter: Well, then there we go. I don’t know why we’re all not doing this. So we just need more uptake. We’re on the precipice of this technology, right? So it’s like fair to say that like something we can look at into. Yeah, because I think, like, , across the board, like, authentication is an interesting challenge that we, for whatever reason, seem to be solving it by deferring it to SaaS companies.

[00:47:34] And I don’t know that that’s solving the problem for individuals concerned with privacy. It’s solving it for developers who want ease of creating authentication flows, You know, yeah, now you’re trusting yet another company, but this part of your company, which is, you know, identity permission being tossed off does seem kind of crazy to me, but hey, that’s kind of where we’re at.

[00:47:58] So like, this [00:48:00] is a way to not only like say I can home grow my authentication and I can actually simplify it and trust it more by using a system such as this. That’s

[00:48:08] Angie Jones: right. That’s right. And I think, , The stronger use cases right now because there is a problem with interoperability between systems. So if I issue a credential, I don’t know, let’s say like M.

[00:48:19] I. T.

[00:48:20] riverside_robbiethewagner_raw-synced-video-cfr_whiskey_web and wha_0270: Yep.

[00:48:20] Angie Jones: If they call their credential like, Oh, this type of credential is called academic credential. Right? And let’s say another school calls theirs education credential. Someone else calls theirs, I don’t know, university credential. Right. So, now if I’m a system that just wants to make sure that you, like, Are a student.

[00:48:39] Yeah, a student or something. I just need student

[00:48:41] Chuck Carpenter: discounts. I want to verify student discounts. Yeah, yeah, or like a

[00:48:43] Angie Jones: job thing. You got to show like you graduated from. You got a degree somewhere.

[00:48:47] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. And

[00:48:48] Angie Jones: you want to supply that credential. Well, you can break the verification program by, like, not having the exact information.

[00:48:54] That they’re looking for. And so there’s a problem there. So I think the strongest use [00:49:00] cases right now, the standards body is working on that piece, by the way, bow. The strongest use cases right now is like the reuse of the credentials within your own system. So that’s why I think the reviews is a strong one because I issued it.

[00:49:13] You’re going to give it back to me. Yeah. That’s all I want to know is

[00:49:16] Chuck Carpenter: you were the person who bought this verified purchase.

[00:49:18] Angie Jones: Yeah. And like at my company, like I said, we’re working on cross border payments and so we’re using credentials for like. KYC, know your customer. And so, for example, if I’m trying to do cross border payment, , we want to do this so that, like, there may be a back end, like, liquidity provider that’s available in multiple apps.

[00:49:41] So I don’t want to do KYC. Anytime that back end provider is in an app, like say I’m using Venmo or a cash app or whatever. , if it’s the same like service provider on the back end, they could issue me a credential the first time they do KYC. In like say Venmo or [00:50:00] something. I hold that and if I see them again in like PayPal.

[00:50:05] Then I can just like, have that credential provided again, you know who I am, and we don’t have to do the whole KYC flow again. Yeah, we don’t

[00:50:11] Chuck Carpenter: have to do cookies, first of all, right? Yeah, yeah. Like, you have opted into a purchase, and now I have an identification that isn’t stored in the browser per se, and isn’t necessarily like, shareable.

[00:50:23] , maybe across experiences. Mm-Hmm. based on that particular cookie. So that’s actually kind of smart. Yeah. It’s a way to sort of solve like this cookie complexity

[00:50:31] Angie Jones: that we’ve dealt with. Yeah. And the cookie, the cookie thing is, , per app though, right? Yeah. Mm-Hmm. . And so this is a way to go, like across app

[00:50:37] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah.

[00:50:37] Be more ubiquitous a Yeah. A

[00:50:39] Angie Jones: cookie that’s cross. Cross domain.

[00:50:41] Chuck Carpenter: Truly cross domain. Truly across, yeah. Yeah. That’s the thing is the cookie issuer is scoped and greater scope. With less concerned on specificity to the right. Yeah, because sometimes it crumbles

[00:50:57] But anyway on that note, um, [00:51:00] yeah, so I do want to steer us we’ve been talking a lot about tech if you were not In tech.

[00:51:04] Angie Jones: Oh, wow. What would what

[00:51:06] Robbie Wagner: would you do? And this could be You don’t have to possess the skill if you could magically get a skill

[00:51:11] Angie Jones: Come on, i’m just saying

[00:51:12] Robbie Wagner: like if there’s a thing you’d love to do that It couldn’t happen or could either way.

[00:51:18] What sounds cool. What do you want to do? That’s not tech.

[00:51:20] Angie Jones: Okay. I really love teaching

[00:51:22] I was an adjunct professor for a couple years and just really love teaching which is probably why I am in DevRel now So maybe something like that I also love to cook

[00:51:34] riverside_robbiethewagner_raw-synced-video-cfr_whiskey_web and wha_0270: Okay,

[00:51:35] Angie Jones: so I could see myself with a little small diner or something like that ,

[00:51:38] riverside_robbiethewagner_raw-synced-video-cfr_whiskey_web and wha_0270: yeah,

[00:51:39] Angie Jones: every time I cook something that’s like really good, my husband goes, Oh, this would go on like the Angie’s diner, you know, so maybe something like that I think would be great.

[00:51:49] Now a skill I don’t have, but I wish I did. Is singing.

[00:51:55] riverside_robbiethewagner_raw-synced-video-cfr_whiskey_web and wha_0270: So

[00:51:55] Angie Jones: I love to sing, but I cannot sing.

[00:51:57] riverside_robbiethewagner_raw-synced-video-cfr_whiskey_web and wha_0270: You’re right. And everybody

[00:51:58] Angie Jones: in my family can [00:52:00] sing, except for me. Okay. So, I didn’t get that, , that skill. But, I can see myself, like, singing.

[00:52:05] Chuck Carpenter: Interesting. Not like a

[00:52:07] Angie Jones: Beyonce kind of thing. Like, probably. A soloist in the church choir or something like that or

[00:52:12] Chuck Carpenter: how about this combine the two you could sing at your diner

[00:52:16] Angie Jones: at my Diner.

[00:52:17] Oh, wow

[00:52:18] Chuck Carpenter: The stress of like is this financially viable or whatever else just get rid of all of that

[00:52:26] riverside_robbiethewagner_raw-synced-video-cfr_whiskey_web and wha_0270: Yeah, you

[00:52:26] Chuck Carpenter: just get to do what you do what I want to do, right? And you’re like cooking you’re singing and people are waiting out there. They’re like great time. I would be like I want to go to there. Yeah. I want some, I want some Andrew’s Diner food.

[00:52:37] Yeah. I want you to verify me on the way in. Yeah. Well, you know, that’s how you get in. But everything else beyond that is just like simple and old school. Oh, that’s nice. Yeah. I like that combination. Mm hmm. Yeah. I love a good diner. Yeah, I love diners. Diners are the best. Right? I like casserole.

[00:52:53] I’m upset that we don’t have Waffle House near me.

[00:52:57] Yeah, it’s a problem. He talks about I hate

[00:52:59] Angie Jones: Waffle Hops. [00:53:00]

[00:53:00] Chuck Carpenter: Oh, Spicy Tastes. Why? What do you hate about it? I think it’s grimy. No, I just think the whole That’s the charm. No,

[00:53:07] Angie Jones: I don’t know. Okay, so I’ll tell you what happened. Like, we went in college one time. Yeah. And the table that they set us at was dirty.

[00:53:14] riverside_robbiethewagner_raw-synced-video-cfr_whiskey_web and wha_0270: And so

[00:53:15] Angie Jones: I flagged the waitress and I’m like, Hey, the table’s dirty.

[00:53:18] And she tosses me an even dirtier rag. So that I can clean the table myself. So, I mean, I just never got over that. Yeah, that’s

[00:53:26] Chuck Carpenter: fair. That’s a bad experience. That’s just disrespectful. I haven’t had that.

[00:53:30] Angie Jones: This place is briny. Briny

[00:53:32] Robbie Wagner: and dirty. I’ve seen a few Waffle Houses will have some problems. But yeah,

[00:53:36] Chuck Carpenter: overall,

[00:53:37] Robbie Wagner: it’s all fair.

[00:53:40] And I love the taste. And you like the consistency. It is so good. You

[00:53:42] Angie Jones: know, I went to the Waffle House this year. This was like my first time back since that college episode.

[00:53:50] Chuck Carpenter: I

[00:53:50] Angie Jones: didn’t want to go, but guess who invited me to go to the Waffle House, y’all?

[00:53:55] Chuck Carpenter: Who?

[00:53:56] Angie Jones: Kelsey Hightower. This

[00:53:57] Chuck Carpenter: guy is not going to Waffle House.

[00:53:59] Look how [00:54:00] healthy he is. No, he’s not eating that. He’s not eating that.

[00:54:03] Angie Jones: Kelsey Hightower. Kelsey Hightower is like so down to earth. Yeah, for sure. And so, he’s like, yeah, you want to go get something to eat at Waffle House right around the corner? I’m like, no. Kelsey, I hate Waffle House. No,

[00:54:13] riverside_robbiethewagner_raw-synced-video-cfr_whiskey_web and wha_0270: man,

[00:54:13] Angie Jones: let’s go to Waffle House.

[00:54:15] Only for Kelsey would I, like, go to Waffle House. So we, we went. I didn’t die.

[00:54:20] Chuck Carpenter: Yes, mother. I love

[00:54:21] Robbie Wagner: it. You can get a ton of stuff in your hash browns. I get the blueberry waffles. Yeah. They give you toast, which I’m watching my weight, so I don’t eat the toast.

[00:54:28] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, of course. Everything else. But I eat all the rest.

[00:54:31] It’s so good. I love it. I love it.

[00:54:33] riverside_robbiethewagner_raw-synced-video-cfr_whiskey_web and wha_0270: Yeah. What

[00:54:34] Chuck Carpenter: would be, okay, I’m going to do one more follow up on that. So, Angie’s Diner.

[00:54:39] Angie Jones: Yeah,

[00:54:40] Chuck Carpenter: what’s the staple that staple finish? Yeah. Okay.

[00:54:43] Angie Jones: I think I want to switch up You know how you go like Oh Mondays we have this kind of thing. I think I want to do that Exactly.

[00:54:51] So one thing I think I would have that would be a special everybody get excited.

[00:54:55] riverside_robbiethewagner_raw-synced-video-cfr_whiskey_web and wha_0270: Yeah

[00:54:55] Angie Jones: We have this dish in New Orleans that’s called yakame

[00:54:58] riverside_robbiethewagner_raw-synced-video-cfr_whiskey_web and wha_0270: Okay, I’m not [00:55:00] familiar.

[00:55:00] Angie Jones: Y A K A M E I N. And it’s basically like a Cajun ramen kind of dish. Oh shit. Yeah. So it’s like noodles with like a nice rich broth. You can put like seafood in there.

[00:55:16] Beef. And so I’ll do mine with like a shrimp. and uh, I do ribeye steak on mine, dice it up, you know, and then, and then you got that spice on it, you know, you toss a little boiled egg on top, some chives.

[00:55:29] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah.

[00:55:31] Angie Jones: Yes. I think that’s what people be excited. I want

[00:55:33] Chuck Carpenter: to go to that. Let me know when you open that.

[00:55:37] I guess next time I go to New Orleans, I know what I need to order. Yeah. Hit me up. I’ll make it for you. Okay. Yes. I will. I was just there

[00:55:42] Robbie Wagner: like a month ago. Oh really? I didn’t have any idea that this was This was on the table. Oh, wow. Wow. Next time, bro. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we were there for a wedding and, uh, so it was mostly a family thing.

[00:55:54] We did do a, we did a second line from the wedding to the, uh, reception. That was

[00:55:58] Angie Jones: nice, wasn’t it? It

[00:55:59] Robbie Wagner: was nice, [00:56:00] yeah. Yeah, there was a big guy on stilts that my, my son really loved the guy on the stilts. And, and the stilts had like little baby shoes on the bottom. That was so cool.

[00:56:09] Chuck Carpenter: That’s

[00:56:09] Robbie Wagner: where

[00:56:09] Chuck Carpenter: they all go.

[00:56:10] You know, in recycling, they just all go to the stilts

[00:56:13] Angie Jones: guys. Yeah, yeah.

[00:56:14] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, it’s helpful.

[00:56:15] Robbie Wagner: Yeah.

[00:56:16] Alright, well, we’re about at time here. Is there anything you want to plug or mention before we end?

[00:56:20] Angie Jones: No, thanks for having me. Um, this was fun. If anybody wants to, uh, reach out to me, , my website is AngieJones.

[00:56:28] tech. I’ve been trying to do LinkedIn more these days, so you can like Reach out to me there. I still live on Twitter. I’m one of the last people there.

[00:56:36] riverside_robbiethewagner_raw-synced-video-cfr_whiskey_web and wha_0270: No, we’re

[00:56:37] Angie Jones: there. Oh, okay. Oh, great. Yeah. Yeah. So y’all can reach out. Yeah, yeah. Y’all reached out to me.

[00:56:41] Chuck Carpenter: Twitter is just, you can’t replace it until

[00:56:45] Robbie Wagner: someone gets it.

[00:56:46] Right. I can’t. Yeah,

[00:56:47] Angie Jones: you’re right.

[00:56:47] Robbie Wagner: Can’t

[00:56:48] Chuck Carpenter: leave. Yeah. Yeah. So much popcorn there. I don’t know. I like it. So excellent. And also don’t forget about the, uh, web five.

[00:56:58] Angie Jones: That’s right. Web five SDK. So [00:57:00] you can go to. tbd. website. Click on the developers part. And so there’s a developer website. We have the links to the SDKs.

[00:57:09] We have docs and tutorials. I mean, this is

[00:57:12] Chuck Carpenter: fun. This is like, sounds fun to explore. So

[00:57:14] Angie Jones: yeah,

[00:57:15] Chuck Carpenter: cool. Yeah. Be, be

[00:57:17] Angie Jones: curious what you all come up with.

[00:57:19] Chuck Carpenter: We’ll give it a try. Yeah. Automatic porn hub login. Okay. On that note, we’re, we’re all done. Yeah. Thanks

[00:57:26] Robbie Wagner: everyone. See you next time.