173: Building Reputation in Tech with Adam Stacoviak and Jerod Santo

[00:00:00] Intro: Welcome to Syntax. Welcome to a brand new episode of the Front End Happy Hour podcast. Welcome to this week’s JS Party. Live from Ship Shape Studios, this is Whiskey Web and Whatnot. With your hosts, Robbie the Wagner, and me, Charles William Carpenter III. That’s right Charles. We drink whiskey and talk about web development. I mean, it’s all in the name. It’s not that deep. This is Whiskey Web and Whatnot. Do not adjust your set.

[00:00:36] Robbie Wagner: All right, welcome to Wine, Web, and Whatnot, which is formerly known as Whiskey Web and Whatnot, but cannot do whiskey at this conference venue at this time.

[00:00:45] So we have some wine. At this time. Chuck is trying to get it open. He’s doing a fine job. I can see you a little bit. You maybe should scooch this way a bit. Yeah, we’re kind of Kind of cut off, but the camera can see us.

[00:00:57] We have a special guest with us, you may [00:01:00] recognize from another podcast. I think it’s called Shop Talk Show. Is that correct?

[00:01:06] Jerod Santo: No comment.

[00:01:08] Robbie Wagner: How do I get out of here? do you guys want to introduce yourselves and tell the folks a little bit about what you do?

[00:01:13] I am the sommelier of the show,

[00:01:16] Adam Stacoviak: opening this wine. Yes.

[00:01:18] Jerod Santo: That voice you just heard is Adam Stachowiak. My name is Jared Santo. We are co hosts of the ChangeLog podcast. And we are open books. That you can read hoping with your ears by speaking to us .

[00:01:36] Robbie Wagner: Oh, alright. Oh, that should be your tagline. See hey. Means you can read with your ears.

[00:01:40] It’s got a nice ring. How many guys does

[00:01:42] Chuck Carpenter: it take?

[00:01:43] Robbie Wagner: Are you guys okay over here? I think they broke the court. We did. It’s broken. Alright, so our wine today is full of cork, but it is a Italian wine, I believe A Chianti Classico Reserva. It is from somewhere. Can’t. Oh shit. Where’s it from? Chuck? We are not [00:02:00] drinking that.

[00:02:00] Uh, yeah, they can’t get it off. Today’s episode is sponsored by, by pork screws. Need one? We do. And basic education. . I’ve got it. Yeah, we’ll get it. Oh, we got there. Good, good. See there. Once you get it threaded already can tell. The show normally goes well. It’s a little more loosey goosey for right now. Okay.

[00:02:19] Wait, wait, uh, tell me you’re an avid listener, right? Of course. Yeah. I heard you guys.

[00:02:25] Jerod Santo: When you were on my show, JS Party, that was, that was, I definitely listened to that. Yeah, I heard it too. I thought you guys, yeah, you guys were awesome. I still

[00:02:32] Robbie Wagner: think we should have won that. I don’t remember, but I’m pretty sure.

[00:02:36] It was the screen size one. What are the, uh, the common

[00:02:41] Jerod Santo: screen sizes

[00:02:41] Robbie Wagner: people use? That

[00:02:42] Jerod Santo: was a really bad question. Turns out it was, you have to say ranges because. Yeah, yeah. Well, you know.

[00:02:49] Robbie Wagner: It was a fun time though. That was fun. you whispering about? These guys are like

[00:02:55] Jerod Santo: having their own conversation over there.

[00:02:57] It’s super awkward. You guys know we’re recording right now, [00:03:00] right? You guys were talking

[00:03:01] Robbie Wagner: over us, so we just went ahead and had a side conversation. We were having like a show. Well this episode is brought to you by drinks. com. Drinks. com, if you’re a wino on the road. They have drinks. com? That is such a good domain.

[00:03:13] And they owe me a bunch of money now. So it’s a travel pourer that is like a pliable disc. That you just kind of roll up and put it in your wine, and I thought roll up was for like, bundling Javascript. Is that, is that not it? Not anymore. Okay.

[00:03:33] I’m just gonna pass them down. So when you think about

[00:03:36] Jerod Santo: drinks. com D R I N K S That is a six letter domain. That’s probably hundreds of thousands of dollars. This is for you. Thank you. It made me think of x. com Which probably cost in the millions, but A billion am I the only one that thinks that that’s too short?

[00:03:53] Robbie Wagner: Yeah It’s

[00:03:54] Jerod Santo: lopsided the x is just one letter and then the dot com is actually more substantial I just feel like you shouldn’t [00:04:00] go less than

[00:04:00] Robbie Wagner: three. Yeah, it has to be something you can search for for seo if you go X, I know well, maybe that works. I haven’t tried to like you want to find their x

[00:04:08] Jerod Santo: account, but fine

[00:04:10] Robbie Wagner: Yeah,

[00:04:10] Jerod Santo: if you want to find their double s account also, okay.

[00:04:12] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, like find me but you stop right there good legs in this

[00:04:15] Jerod Santo: one

[00:04:16] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, I haven’t okay. So we’re having the this line Doesn’t seem like the classical reserva as It is d o c g which means organic, but that is good in italy and terrible in the states So just a heads up there. It’s the 2018. So it’s got some age to it , and there you go get to it A little sniff a little how is it on the nose?

[00:04:38] What’s better in the mouth? Okay, well you start there. That’s what she said.

[00:04:43] riverside_robbiethewagner_raw-synced-video-cfr_whiskey_web and wha_0266: It’s that kind of

[00:04:44] Adam Stacoviak: show? Uncancellable by the way.

[00:04:48] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. com. You can sue me for zero. Can I say things I don’t want?

[00:04:54] Jerod Santo: Sure. This wine. No, just kidding.[00:05:00]

[00:05:00] Not bad. Yeah. Yeah, drinkable. Sharp. Serviceable. That’s how I would describe it. Serviceable. I’m not a big Chianti guy. I am Italian though. So that’s kind of backwards.

[00:05:11] Robbie Wagner: What Italian wine do you like?

[00:05:12] Jerod Santo: Oh, no, I mean I’m Italian, you know, genetically. I’m not Italian. Yeah, yeah, but that means you have to like

[00:05:18] Robbie Wagner: some Italian things, right?

[00:05:19] Now you’re going to like pizza, right?

[00:05:21] Jerod Santo: Oh, I love pizza. I had some pizza last night. much does this wine cost? Is that Yeah, we can say whatever we want, right?

[00:05:27] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, we can say whatever we want. I don’t know, what was this, like 30? 30 ish?

[00:05:31] Jerod Santo: Okay.

[00:05:31] Robbie Wagner: I think that’s pretty cool. Not zero, but not super fancy. Do you get wine for zero?

[00:05:36] No, no, but I mean, you can get a five or a ten dollar. If you guys get big enough,

[00:05:39] Jerod Santo: you can get free whiskey at least. Yeah, yeah. We would hope. That’s the end goal. Is that the There you go, there’s your North Star.

[00:05:46] Robbie Wagner: Way off track here. Way off track. So, we’re having alcohol. We’ve introduced the alcohol. We’ve tasted it, but we haven’t talked about it.

[00:05:54] What are the notes you’re getting? Mr. Charles William Carpenter. Thank you. Okay, there we go. , it’s very [00:06:00] dry, which is what I don’t like about Chianti a lot of times. I don’t mind a full body, which this does have, but its finish just makes me feel like I needed a chunk of water. I thought it was Italian.

[00:06:11] Italiano. Anyway.

[00:06:13] Jerod Santo: That was a Finnish joke. Oh, I got it. Yeah. Sorry, Chuck.

[00:06:16] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. Um, Hi, I’m glad we’re doing your podcast next. Maybe not because man, I fucked that shit up.

[00:06:23] Jerod Santo: I’m like yours and you can’t say whatever you want on our show.

[00:06:28] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. Yes.

[00:06:29] Jerod Santo: We will bleep. I apologize. I, I interrupted you, but yeah, it was a good job.

[00:06:33] Robbie Wagner: It’s burdened. No, it’s all good. , so very fruity in the start. , very dry in the finish. Not a whole lot in between for me. It’s all right. I mean, I’m sure it’s a nice county. I like you, Jared, though. Don’t prefer them.

[00:06:45] So we have a highly technical rating here on the show. You guys may have forgotten from the last episode you listened to, , zero to eight tentacles, zero being terrible, obviously for middle of the road would have again, but not amazing.

[00:06:58] Eight clear the shelves. This is [00:07:00] for me. You can categorize however you want with that. You can say to other wines alcohol in general, doesn’t matter. Like I said, not too crazy there. For me, this, I don’t love. Chianti’s, this is probably a little better than like your standard table Chianti though. So I’m gonna give it a five We can go down the line if you like.

[00:07:23] Adam Stacoviak: I’ll go next. Yes. I Would say that the Chianti

[00:07:30] Which is so close to the other version that you can Can we say that on the show? Well, I mean, it is a March for Adults.

[00:07:39] Robbie Wagner: How is it on the Kunze scale for you? I would say, I’m a Chianti side. I am not

[00:07:47] Adam Stacoviak: a, I’m not a Chianti kind of guy. I’m more of a red blend, a very simple wine drinker. I like blends a lot. I like Texas blends a lot.

[00:07:56] Okay. I like California blends a lot. I like a [00:08:00] Malbec. Okay. You know, it’s my style. You know, it goes well with steak, it goes well with So low by itself. It’s generally not very expensive. Yes. I would say because of the reasons I don’t really care for Chianti. This is dry. I would say it’s low on my list. I would never buy this again or drink it.

[00:08:20] Robbie Wagner: Will you finish this cup? Is it good enough to finish? Yeah, I’ll drink it with you. Yeah, we gotta crush this bottle. I’ll drink it with you, but I’m not

[00:08:27] Adam Stacoviak: excited to go out and get a bottle of this. Very fine Caprea? Caprea. Caprea? Caprea, right? Chianti Classico Reserva. Mm hmm. 2018. Yeah. Thank you for sharing it, but it’s not my favorite.

[00:08:39] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. It’s the first time I’ve had it too, so, you know, you take a roll of the dice when you go to the Wegmans in Raleigh.

[00:08:46] Adam Stacoviak: Did you give it tentacles? Oh. Two tentacles. No. Okay. 2. 5.

[00:08:52] Robbie Wagner: He didn’t spit it out, so there’s that. Yeah.

[00:08:54] Jerod Santo: I will echo Chuck. In his analysis and I will subtract one point. [00:09:00] I’ll give four tentacles, but for the exact same reasons.

[00:09:02] riverside_robbiethewagner_raw-synced-video-cfr_whiskey_web and wha_0266: Yeah,

[00:09:03] Jerod Santo: that’s fair

[00:09:03] Robbie Wagner: Yeah the fan the actual fan He’s a

[00:09:08] Adam Stacoviak: fan no, he bought this he likes chianti I like chianti I

[00:09:12] Robbie Wagner: don’t i’m I don’t like the classico reserve. Yeah, that’s supposed to be fancier I like the normal chianti so I got the one that was supposed to be fancier you know to have better stuff, but Yeah It’s not my favorite either.

[00:09:26] Uh, I would give it more than a two. , I think four is pretty appropriate. Yeah, maybe four and a half. You can do halves? Yeah, you absolutely can. Does that change anything for you? I stand

[00:09:36] riverside_robbiethewagner_raw-synced-video-cfr_whiskey_web and wha_0266: by my

[00:09:36] Adam Stacoviak: four.

[00:09:38] Robbie Wagner: Where did you land? Did you say four also? Four seems reasonable.

[00:09:42] Adam Stacoviak: Can I interject maybe another rule into your grading system? Sure. How much would you pay for it? Four. Not what you paid for, but how much would you pay

[00:09:50] Robbie Wagner: for it? See, that’s the problem too, because in, in Italy, this would be 10, 15 euro. Oh, easily, yeah.

[00:09:56] Wine is way cheaper. And it’s, so it’s double or more here. [00:10:00] Okay. So, like, pricing is all inflated, but Yeah. Yeah, I think 10 or 15 euro is pretty I’d be fine with this. Pretty good for that, yeah. 15 bucks. Yeah. Yeah. you disagree with that assessment?

[00:10:10] Jerod Santo: Well, he said he would never buy it, so

[00:10:12] Robbie Wagner: Yeah.

[00:10:12] Yeah. Not even So I would never buy it. What would you pay? What would you pay? Ten bucks. Ten bucks. Yeah. Yeah. And that wouldn’t be crazy right in Italy. Yeah. Jared, what part of Italy is your family from?

[00:10:25] Jerod Santo: Uh, Sicily.

[00:10:25] Robbie Wagner: The boot. Oh. Way down. All right, the island. Yeah, and don’t piss you off because you got people

[00:10:32] Jerod Santo: That’s right.

[00:10:33] Yeah, that’s right. I’ve seen the guy’s father. I know they have recipes. Do not cross me Okay, I will make you an offer you cannot refuse Because you’ll be dead

[00:10:40] Adam Stacoviak: So here we are. Actually, it’s growing on me. You know what, I’m sipping it a bit. Alcohol will do that. It’s smoothing. Yeah, the more you have the better it is.

[00:10:47] It’s smoothing out. Wait till the next glass. If you get past that dry part, it’s smoothing out. Yeah. Maybe

[00:10:51] Robbie Wagner: it’s airing it out a little bit. It’s gotten a bit more tart in the center for me. You know, it was like sweet at first, like jammy sweet. And then it starts to get a little more like [00:11:00] sour in the middle for me.

[00:11:02] riverside_robbiethewagner_raw-synced-video-cfr_whiskey_web and wha_0266: Oh.

[00:11:03] Robbie Wagner: Anyway, yeah, we are drinking it out of the best glassware for this. Yeah, so that helps.

[00:11:09] Jerod Santo: This is Tupperware’s finest Glassware is a stretch, isn’t it? They’re not red. I was like, we just can’t get red.

[00:11:15] Robbie Wagner: We can’t get red cups. That’s all I was like, come on. We’re classier than that. We’re better than that. We deserve that.

[00:11:20] riverside_robbiethewagner_raw-synced-video-cfr_whiskey_web and wha_0266: Yeah.

[00:11:21] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, there’s a podcast over there, too. There’s a number of them. Here at Tall Things Open. Yeah, some here, some down there, some up there. It’s kind of fun. Yeah.

[00:11:31] That takes me into what I think some of the things I thought it would be good for us to do. Okay, let’s get

[00:11:36] Jerod Santo: into it. Yeah,

[00:11:37] Robbie Wagner: just to the Let’s do it.

[00:11:40] And we’re all creating content online, right? Doing kind of our thing in various areas. Some more successfully than others. I don’t think it’s limited to podcasting because you have plenty of folks who do live streaming. , there’s a lot of learning content out there. There are short form things. , do you think, and I’m going to ask this question to [00:12:00] both of you so you can each take an answer at it.

[00:12:02] Jerod Santo: Okay.

[00:12:02] Robbie Wagner: that inherently within development for the betterment of your career, figuring out how to create content, is that necessary to really stand out and gain a career within web development as a whole? Hmm. Or, I’ll leave that open ended, the second part.

[00:12:21] Jerod Santo: Good question. I don’t think so. I think for a certain class of people, it makes a lot of sense.

[00:12:26] I think it can certainly accelerate a career. There are probably thousands, if not tens of thousands, of very, very successful software developers who do not do any content at all. And I think they would raise their hand and say, Not necessary, guys, because I’m doing it without doing that. However, it’s a great avenue.

[00:12:44] Adam Stacoviak: I agree. No. I think, uh, it depends on what the person is optimizing for. If they’re trying to get to be, like, a famous developer, or notoriety, then I think, yeah, you probably want to create some content. I think [00:13:00] you’re probably going to put yourself out there, you’re going to be flashy, you’re going to do things, you’re going to be provocative, potentially, in your own way.

[00:13:07] And I think if you want to be that kind of, well known developer, that kind of successful developer, then I think you’re probably going to create some content. But if you want to be a developer who is behind the scenes necessary, maybe even called like potentially, then I think that, uh, you don’t need to worry about any content.

[00:13:24] You can just show up and do your thing and be a useful cog and be a great team member and deliver great software and care about customers. And that’s all you got to do. So,

[00:13:35] Robbie Wagner: related, what do you think about open source? Is doing open source stuff helpful at all to a career? Other than learning the skill, like, Yeah.

[00:13:44] For the notoriety standpoint, is it helpful?

[00:13:46] Jerod Santo: I certainly think it is. Obviously you can have more or less success with open source. yet, It’s a great way to be able to point at something that you’ve done or built, which is not. proprietary [00:14:00] or needs permission from your previous employer. So there’s a lot of advantages, even in just in that.

[00:14:05] And of course there’s opportunity to raise your clout in the community by having a successful project or participate in one. So I think it absolutely is where I thought you were going to go with that. Maybe you’re headed there. Is that content creation is open source creating content because kind of, kind of it is, but it’s also kind of not.

[00:14:23] So I don’t know. It question. I think it’s, I think it’s content. Code.

[00:14:27] Adam Stacoviak: The question is, is being involved in or shipping open source or contributing. What was the question again, Robbie?

[00:14:34] Robbie Wagner: is open source, not from learning the skill perspective, but just like from my GitHub screen and like I’m trying to build my brand, is doing open source really helpful for that?

[00:14:45] Adam Stacoviak: I think it goes back to my original answer with the other one, which is if you’re trying to be more out there and more of a well known person, famous or infamous, then I think having a flashy GitHub profile that shows off the things you care about is going to be very helpful. [00:15:00] Whether it’s for making friends, whether it’s making new network connections that lead to job opportunities or a co founder or whatever it might be, then yeah.

[00:15:09] But if you want to be a developer who’s behind the scenes, not necessary. I mean, you may have a profile, but you may not care if it’s fleshed out in terms of, hey, this is Adam Stachowiak and what he cares about. go look at my GitHub profile. It’s, it’s basically abandoned. I mean, like, I don’t do a lot of it besides our own contributions, and that’s limited.

[00:15:29] did do a lot of stuff at open source, but I have not done a lot in terms of code contributions.

[00:15:35] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, yeah, I guess maybe the, maybe I’m not asking the question the exact right way here. So I have done a lot of open source stuff. I don’t think it has helped my brand at all. Or like when I try to go get a job at a company, they’re not like, Oh, cool.

[00:15:50] I’ve seen you online. Let’s hire you. You’re still the same interviews as everyone else. Like, right, right. So. Okay, and I think all of this is kind of under the umbrella of [00:16:00] building reputation. Yeah. There are all different ways to potentially build a reputation, and then, like you said, Adam, it’s kind of optimizing for what kind of outcomes within that reputation you want.

[00:16:11] Like, I can come here and drink whiskey and talk shit, and that might gain me some popularity, but no one’s going to know what I can do for them professionally unless they’re hiring me to do that thing, right? Yeah. Yeah. So. You’re building reputation in multiple avenues, and open source is another one of those potential things.

[00:16:28] But, you know, you’ve got to optimize for the outcome that you want. Although, I will say that, like, if you want to be a cog in the wheel, collect the paycheck that you’re given, and stay quietly tucked in the corner, you can do that. But your options are limited because the scope of the reputation you’re building is within, now, your current company.

[00:16:46] So then that comes to be, remember, they used to try to force a lot of web developers to have portfolios. And it’s like, what am I showing you with a portfolio necessarily? Like, that’s just like, I could read a book and do the project in it and push that out. That doesn’t [00:17:00] necessarily show that same thing, but it’s all about reputation and figuring it out.

[00:17:04] How for us as developers, how do we like showcase that without going through, you know, six loops and a whiteboard? Like, what does that look like? Because. An architect doesn’t have to go like prove themselves in an interview. They have a reputation because they went through the schooling and maybe, you know, built these three buildings.

[00:17:24] I think I would like almost like take that and these initial questions back one step and it’s like, what ways do you think are necessary as folks who do want to just like, I want to supercharge my career and I’m really good at this thing I’m doing.

[00:17:39] How do I build reputation for that? And a lot of people are doing learning content to show it. But, you know, sometimes they show up to podcasts. But what else is it for us to, like, prove we’re good enough? Or get people to know us in a way that they want to work with us?

[00:17:52] Jerod Santo: Great question. I think reputation, in a lot of ways, is in the eye of the beholder. And so to tie back to what Robbie said, [00:18:00] we’ve talked with hundreds of open source developers over the years. And for every person who feels the way that you do, like it hasn’t meaningful, meaningfully moved the needle for you, like your reputation based on your open source has not preceded you into those situations.

[00:18:16] There’s somebody else who, we’ve heard the stories over and over again, they can either directly or indirectly tie their current career, their current status to their open source project. So like, it’s not a guarantee.

[00:18:30] riverside_robbiethewagner_raw-synced-video-cfr_whiskey_web and wha_0266: Right.

[00:18:30] Jerod Santo: But it does work. It is a way to gain reputation. If you’re successful at using it in that way.

[00:18:37] How best to gain reputation, I think is completely subjective and contextual, and I don’t know if I can give a blanket answer. But Adam might be able to. How do you do it, Adam?

[00:18:48] Robbie Wagner: Tell us. I never heard of him until today, so I don’t think he’s doing a good job. Right. I think that’s Oh,

[00:18:55] riverside_robbiethewagner_raw-synced-video-cfr_whiskey_web and wha_0266: it’s weak. Ha ha ha!

[00:18:58] Robbie Wagner: His Bitbucket, though, is on [00:19:00] fire.

[00:19:00] Yeah, well, it’s on the verge.

[00:19:02] Adam Stacoviak: Oh, yeah. Gain reputation.

[00:19:04] I think you, you show up, and you do what you said you could do, and you do it well, and you rinse and repeat, and that gets you reputation. I think that also, there’s this world we’re living in. In one way, shape, or form, there’s a socialness. and a transparency that’s required to show off who you are and what you’re capable of doing.

[00:19:27] I think, you know, your analogy of the architect not being scrutinized, I’m paraphrasing, but Yeah, that’s good enough. at the same time, that person contributed in some way, shape, or form to several buildings. Using your example. So, those buildings are their portfolio. In some way, shape, or form, you’ve got to show off what you say you’re able to do and prove.

[00:19:49] You can do that enough so to gain the trust to get the opportunity and then deliver it. And reputation is formed by doing that again and again and again [00:20:00] until you are popular enough that you have a reputation to precede you.

[00:20:05] Robbie Wagner: Do you think our industry would benefit from like a national organization of certification rather than the subjectivity from company to company then?

[00:20:15] Like we all lack of a better term, say there’s a, you know, national union of web developers or developers, programmers, whatever you want to call it, and the standards aren’t just determined by Amazon and their processes and Oracle and their things and so on and so forth, like independent organizations.

[00:20:35] Do you think the centralized one would be a way to kind of solve that? Cause I’ve proven it in the way we all agree.

[00:20:40] Jerod Santo: Possibly. Hesitantly, possibly. Very hesitantly, though. However, one of the things about our industry is it’s so young, and while there are common maladies between different kinds of software, it’s changing still at a very rapid pace. It’s very difficult to certify and [00:21:00] to stay certified in a way that’s productive around something that moves that quickly.

[00:21:05] I don’t see it slowing down anytime soon. I know there are efforts to come out with certifications. Those are all good. A national certification that we all agreed to? I don’t know. I get skeptical of those kind of efforts, personally. Yeah, but it’s not very capitalist.

[00:21:19] Robbie Wagner: I can say that.

[00:21:19] Adam Stacoviak: No.

[00:21:20] I think what I like about our industry is that it’s one of the few where you can just show up and do and be good at it. and get a job If you could produce a good outcome, you’re hired. Whereas

[00:21:36] Robbie Wagner: I disagree.

[00:21:37] Jerod Santo: Are you currently looking?

[00:21:39] Robbie Wagner: No, no, but, How do you disagree? Interviewing is a completely separate skill from being a developer, in my opinion.

[00:21:47] And I am trash at interviewing, but I think I’m a pretty good developer. Okay.

[00:21:53] Adam Stacoviak: What I mean though, so his question is not about the interview. It is about the certification that says I’m good enough. [00:22:00] And so I like the fact that I don’t have to go out necessarily and get a computer science degree. Sure, That says that’s the gate and therefore I have the pass and so I get through the gate. Right,

[00:22:12] riverside_robbiethewagner_raw-synced-video-cfr_whiskey_web and wha_0266: yeah.

[00:22:12] Adam Stacoviak: So that’s where I’m coming from is that if you can produce, if you can do, if you can learn, if you can learn by doing, and show up and do it. You have access. It’s not, it’s not controlled by certification or degree or this or that.

[00:22:28] It’s literally, you’re curious enough in this young industry we have to show up and be curious and find a path and forge that path, make a network and do and you’re in for the most part, right?

[00:22:43] Robbie Wagner: Yeah.

[00:22:43] Adam Stacoviak: There is no true gatekeeper aside from opportunity and doing the job.

[00:22:48] Jerod Santo: But the interview process does suck.

[00:22:50] Yes. Yes. So we’re not going to disagree on that. Yeah. From

[00:22:53] Robbie Wagner: like a working agreements perspective of like, you’ve shown you can do this job, not the interview aspect or everything [00:23:00] else. I completely agree with Adam there is that, that is a benefit of it is that I’m not like kept out by, you know, the equivalent of law school and residency for medical people and all this else.

[00:23:11] But renewal.

[00:23:12] Adam Stacoviak: Renewals of certificate, yeah, like yeah, you have to repass the bar exam or be current on X to be yeah, why? We don’t have that necessarily. There’s some parts of our industry that may have versions of that, right? but by and large for the most part if you can be a software engineer or a developer or a producer or whatever you want to frame that person as You can do the job And you get the job and you get paid well for the most part.

[00:23:38] Yeah.

[00:23:38] Robbie Wagner: And you also can use these tools to launch a business for a pretty low cost. I mean, it’s gotta be one of the cheapest small businesses that you could potentially, it’s

[00:23:46] riverside_robbiethewagner_raw-synced-video-cfr_whiskey_web and wha_0266: software.

[00:23:46] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. It’s software and anybody potentially can do that. And I agree with that because in the sense that like the gatekeepers in comparison to the lawyer, doctor and all that other stuff, and obviously we’re not saving lives, [00:24:00] humans are harmed by this, so of course we don’t need those kind of gigs per se.

[00:24:03] So it’s a great counterpoint, I think, for that thing. But, yeah, like, uh, Robby and Jared alluded to, or just straight up said, now the interviews, which are separate from all of that altogether, and where there are books and certifications to learn how to interview at Google, or some shit like that, and I say that because we have, uh, With the badgers.

[00:24:25] The lanyard. Yeah, the lanyard. That’s the fancy word. So, that is something else altogether, which is a little bit ridiculous. You can almost just separate them. I have to learn to interview to get past. Oh, yeah. And then I can just do my job well. Yeah, the interview is nothing like What happens in the days of like, you know, the, the guy in the hoodie who sits in the corner eating Funyuns, chugging Mountain Dew, but he’s fucking crushing it.

[00:24:49] But, you know, he’s not leveling up his team around him. They’ve kind of been shifted out of, you know, the industry and a lot of lone wolf is really looked down on. Yeah. Yeah. Like that’s [00:25:00] an interesting thing to me because like, to what you said, those are people who know it and can get the job done, but I don’t want to go get a beer with them.

[00:25:08] So fuck them.

[00:25:09] Jerod Santo: Well, the job isn’t merely writing the code, which is what the lone wolf thinks it is. And so there’s more to the job than many of us want there to be. Sure. And because many of us are socially awkward and not skilled in that area, we want, we’d rather talk to computers and talk to humans, right?

[00:25:27] Like that’s

[00:25:28] riverside_robbiethewagner_raw-synced-video-cfr_whiskey_web and wha_0266: right.

[00:25:29] Jerod Santo: I understand that sentiment. I’ve felt that way, uh, even right now, currently feeling that way, but that’s not anymore, maybe it once was, cause you had one engineer on your, in your entire business, right? Or one system in who just ran the entire network. That’s just not the reality of the job anymore.

[00:25:48] And so that’s why I think those people are marginalized, because, yeah, they aren’t fitting the entire bill. but agree that the interview process just doesn’t actually interview you for the job that you’re going to do, [00:26:00] which can be maddening, especially when it’s difficult, like right now, it’s not easy to get that job.

[00:26:05] riverside_robbiethewagner_raw-synced-video-cfr_whiskey_web and wha_0266: Yeah,

[00:26:05] Jerod Santo: when it was easier, you know? Yeah. You had to go through some rigamarole and some leak code and some other crap, but then you got the job at the end of it. So it’s kind of like, okay,

[00:26:12] Robbie Wagner: yeah, yeah. Now it’s like, yeah, the leak code is bullshit. Eight rounds, and then they’re like, thanks, we’ve, , chosen another candidate.

[00:26:17] Exactly. Yeah. So it’s hard right

[00:26:19] Jerod Santo: now, or fake jobs.

[00:26:21] CTA: This just in! Whiskey.fund is now open for all your merch needs. That’s right, Robbie. We’re hearing reports of hats, sweaters, and T-shirts, as well as a link to join our Discord server. What’s a Discord server? Just read the prompter, man. Hit subscribe. Leave us a review on your favorite podcast app and tell your friends about our broadcast. It really does help us reach more people and keeps the show growing. All right, back to your regularly scheduled programming.

[00:26:54] Jerod Santo: That’s a thing, yeah. Fake jobs are a thing. Tell me more about fake jobs.

[00:26:58] Robbie Wagner: It’s not Steve Jobs brother. [00:27:00] Okay. This is, uh, Hi, my name’s Steve. This is my brother, Fake. On a recent episode of

[00:27:06] Adam Stacoviak: Cheese Huggin Friends with Johnny Borsico, a panelist on GoTime, he shared his insights to fake jobs.

[00:27:14] And I think paraphrasing versions of what he said was, essentially, there’s companies out there that do it. Act as if they’re hiring because it helps them with their bottom line in terms of investors. It looks good So yes, they have these jobs out there that are not being filled. They may even have headhunters out there Collecting resumes and keeping in quotes keeping these resumes and these people warm But still looking for the perfect ideal candidate.

[00:27:41] Meanwhile, they’ve got 15 possible really good candidates that they’re not hiring So that’s, that totally sucks.

[00:27:47] Jerod Santo: Which is a side effect of VCs using hiring as a health metric. So VCs began using that, which kind of makes some sense, right? Like, well, if they’re hiring, they must be growing. Company’s growing.

[00:27:59] [00:28:00] Yeah, so VCs are looking for a way to judge. Yeah. And then, however, whose law is this? Goodhart, perhaps? Goodhart, yeah. This is the one where any measure that becomes known ceases to be a good measure. And so Companies realize, well, we’re gonna look better to VCs if we’re hiring, and so we can’t actually hire.

[00:28:18] Or maybe we have one position, but we’ll put out eight. Right.

[00:28:20] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. And we’ll just be very picky. And we’ll just get thousands of applicants. And meanwhile, all of us are out

[00:28:24] Jerod Santo: there applying like plebs, and their jobs aren’t even real.

[00:28:28] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, that’s annoying. Wasting our time. Yeah, three months later you get a, we’ve reviewed your resume and decided, uh, you’re not a good fit for this one, and really they probably didn’t want you.

[00:28:37] Why would you get anything back? That’s more than you should get. Yeah, sometimes not. That’s actually kind of kind. Yeah. No, thanks for letting me know. I couldn’t cross this one off my list. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:28:47] Adam Stacoviak: And then you get into the position where you’re like, we should regulate this then. Just like your certification question.

[00:28:52] We should regulate this. We should make sure these jobs are real before they can post a job. That is not a word I want to live in either. Like, over [00:29:00] regulation is not conducive to a, a free moving market, right? Yeah. So, the alternative is just to suck it up, I guess? Or, like, just call foul, heavily, when we find out true examples of fake jobs.

[00:29:15] Not Steve Jobs. Mm

[00:29:17] Robbie Wagner: hmm. Fake, though, fake was a genius. But, so, call them out, like, say, publicly, you discovered this, Like, fuck LinkedIn, they’ve got eight job postings, and I know someone on the inside, turns out they’re all lies, don’t bother applying there, in that kind of way, like, shaming there because they care about image and perception.

[00:29:37] Adam Stacoviak: I don’t want to be a cancel culture, pile on kind of guy, but I feel like if it’s egregious, and it’s like maybe even multiple offenses, we wouldn’t do it. I would say Jared and I would probably just walk away and just be like, whatever. Yeah. I think. Somebody I’ve seen do this semi well and respectfully is Gergely Oros.

[00:29:56] He’s called out several companies for various hiring [00:30:00] practices, various things, even the, the whole WP Engine WordPress situation in Mullowag. And I think he does a pretty fair job of holding people to a line.

[00:30:11] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah.

[00:30:12] Adam Stacoviak: It’s not my demeanor. I don’t think it’s Jared’s demeanor. We’ve had a couple of examples in our lives when we’ve been marginalized by a very large company.

[00:30:20] We would say we’re part of the community. We were told we’re not welcomed and we didn’t say anything. We just walked away. We turned to the chief until now. Listen, our three or four

[00:30:32] Robbie Wagner: listeners would love to know right now. shout

[00:30:35] Jerod Santo: out to George, , Paul and fake three listeners, right? Yeah. Yeah. Fake jobs is a big fan.

[00:30:42] He’s

[00:30:42] Robbie Wagner: worked on pair AI, I think. Yeah. Yeah. It’s just a fork of Steve. Yeah. Anyway, yeah, Fort’s, uh, Nerdfights and Fort culture is a very interesting thing lately, too. It is, it is. You bring up WP Engine and all that, but I’m sorry if you were going to go with Well, I

[00:30:58] Adam Stacoviak: don’t want to, I just don’t want to be [00:31:00] for the cancel culture, necessarily.

[00:31:03] I don’t think it’s necessarily helpful to ad nauseam just cancel something, or ad nauseam, not ad nauseam. I don’t think it’s I don’t think, I think, in your brain, Jared, you were like, It’s ad nauseum,

[00:31:18] Jerod Santo: Adam. We’ve worked together long enough. I just let it go. I’m like, oh, he’ll stop. He’ll catch himself.

[00:31:24] He’ll make it a big talking point, which just happened.

[00:31:26] Adam Stacoviak: Ad nauseum. Ad nauseum. I don’t necessarily subscribe to cancel culture. I don’t want to be canceled. I don’t want to cancel somebody. I believe in forgiveness. I think people make mistakes.

[00:31:37] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, I agree with that. Sure. You know,

[00:31:38] Adam Stacoviak: and I, I wanna see redemption.

[00:31:40] ‘cause I’m a, I’m a believer, a firm believer in redemption.

[00:31:43] Robbie Wagner: Well, I think there’s a big difference between cancer culture of individuals. Cancer. Yeah. Culture. Okay. That was a Freudian slip. Cancer culture. Is that on purpose? You got it. You did? Yeah. I just, you know, okay. I like it. Can cancer culture? Cancer culture?

[00:31:56] Cancer is culture. Culture is And has cancer. Is there more of this

[00:31:58] Adam Stacoviak: 2.5 wine?

[00:31:59] Robbie Wagner: No, [00:32:00] just whatever. Roll with it. You’ll be fine. Is there more of this? Yeah. He really likes it. Anybody? No, we all think you should drink that. Do you think there’s probably a different? Sure, I guess. Yeah, uh, Jared does not like this one, by the way.

[00:32:16] I’ll give you a oh, that’s it. Yeah, it’s just a light. It’s okay. Just for a second. Just for a second. So, so we’re talking about cancel. Cancel now. Now you’ve put it in that cancel culture. You gotta put it in there. Just take one breath real quick and then start again for individuals versus companies is my thought there.

[00:32:37] And it’s like as a sure company collectively making these moves and not just one individual that gets canceled. I think there’s a lot more leeway for individuals who do so, yeah. Who are just humans. Have a feeling, a lack of understanding, make a mistake in the moment, become emotional. Companies, especially the larger the company [00:33:00] gets, they are, planning this.

[00:33:02] Either an HR is planning, somebody has made a plan and a group agreement to start to go. A room full of people decided this is okay. Yeah. Right. Like there’s some C levels that know about this or some HR people that know about it. There’s people who know. And are making that conscious choice. So I, I tend to be more forgiving of the individual and mistakes in that way.

[00:33:25] Unless you’re like some people who just lean hard. Oh, I made a mistake. I’m going to keep going. who do you know like that? I’m not friends with them, but you know, they’ll say that, yeah, I mean, you mentioned the WP engine WordPress drama. That is a lean hard and keep going. I am right. Fighting my position.

[00:33:44] And I will not listen to the masses. And if you are canceling me, I have a large bank account. I don’t give a shit. Maybe. I don’t know. I haven’t talked to him. I have no idea. He, he does seem to think that he is right. He does. And he’s driving that company forward. So that is [00:34:00] the singular individual set of opinions.

[00:34:03] But if like LinkedIn was putting up 50 job postings for a job they didn’t have. And I learned the truth of that. I may be like, fuck that,

[00:34:10] Adam Stacoviak: Contextually, there’s there’s a version of standing up and there’s a version of canceling. And I think in the case of like a Matt situation, I’m not subscribing to the idea while I disagree with several of his moves.

[00:34:25] I’m not trying to cancel Matt.

[00:34:27] Robbie Wagner: No.

[00:34:28] Adam Stacoviak: If LinkedIn knowingly allowed in some way, shape or form their platform to promote Or allow for legitimately fake, is that even a thing? Legitimately fake jobs.

[00:34:39] Robbie Wagner: Real fake jobs. Real fake jobs. Dot com.

[00:34:43] Adam Stacoviak: Then, then that’s not cool at all. And I say, I say call foul.

[00:34:48] Chuck Carpenter: Yes. Agreed.

[00:34:50] Adam Stacoviak: But if you’re a small company and you’re like, maybe you’re between rounds. And you’re getting ready and you want a pipeline for like triggers. Cause it sounds like

[00:34:59] Jerod Santo: it’s mostly [00:35:00] startups that are doing this. Yeah.

[00:35:01] Adam Stacoviak: Cause there are situations for founders and leaders that they get into some situations where they’ve got risk on the line and I don’t think it’s necessarily okay to be like, well, let me just promote this fake job and like tantalize Jared for a while and let him dangle.

[00:35:15] But I can kind of, to some degree, empathize because while leading is so hard, running a company is so hard. There’s a meeting should be. Disingenuous? No. Yeah. But am I going to be personally, as Adam from Changelog, going to call them out? If it was on a podcast, yeah.

[00:35:34] If it was like in the real world, that sounds Only on a podcast would I do that. places where I’m known to share my opinions, I would share those opinions. Am I going to go out of my way to write a blog post about X, Y, and Z doing X? No. Nah, probably not. Because that’s not my medium, but if they were on a podcast with us, I’m like, It sounds like that job’s fake.

[00:35:50] And I got friends who applied. Then I’m like, that doesn’t sound legitimate. Is that real? I would totally ask them that. Am I gonna be like, cancel culturing them [00:36:00] and , mobbing them? Nah.

[00:36:01] Chuck Carpenter: It’s just not my style.

[00:36:02] Robbie Wagner: So cancel culture though starts to become like a larger and larger blanket of where it’s coming from.

[00:36:08] Yeah, it’s very mobbed. But the cancel culture is about changing perceptions within the culture of folks that feel like they’ve been marginalized or worse. A certain group of people

[00:36:19] Adam Stacoviak: feel like a certain group of people feel like they shouldn’t be involved anymore. Right. And so therefore everyone should feel like they shouldn’t be involved anymore.

[00:36:27] Robbie Wagner: And it’s like, no opinion is supporting the thing I’m, yeah. And all of that is a little egregious in my opinion. And

[00:36:33] Adam Stacoviak: you’re canceled. If you don’t agree with the canceling.

[00:36:35] Robbie Wagner: But we talked about a startup and you feel, you know, it’s nice if you have a little sympathy for a startup CEO that, you know, has taken maybe a few million dollars or so, and they’ve made these decisions to try and like give them some last gasp efforts and perception of success or just even plateauing and maintaining status quo.

[00:36:53] I would say being a leader is hard. Being a leader with integrity is even harder than, because [00:37:00] that to me shows a lack of integrity. Yeah. I wouldn’t even want to be there.

[00:37:04] Adam Stacoviak: As I was saying, that’s why I was backpedaling. I don’t want to be a lack of integrity kind of person, but I can at least empathize with somebody who is struggling to hold the line, because there is a phrase called by any means necessary.

[00:37:17] That’s true. And to some degree, by any means necessary is sometimes a bending or a curving of the integrity. And that’s the kind of person I subscribe to, but I can at least empathize with somebody who feels compelled to do so to survive.

[00:37:31] Robbie Wagner: and the interesting aspect of that is you would see like that particular founder, if this story comes up five, 10 years later, and they were unicorns and blew up.

[00:37:41] And you would say, like you said, by all means necessary. And boy, was he really willing to just buckle down and do anything to make it work. And they did, you know, and that story is very different than the one of, well, they ended up drowning anyway and fucked over a bunch of people.

[00:37:56] Adam Stacoviak: You know, this makes me think of a very good TV show.

[00:37:59] Robbie Wagner: [00:38:00] Go ahead. Yeah, what is it? Silicon Valley. I thought you might say that, but I was like, it sounds like the obvious answer. Silicon Valley. I’m gonna let you have it. Richard

[00:38:07] Adam Stacoviak: Hendricks character arc struggled the entire show with integrity.

[00:38:12] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah.

[00:38:13] Adam Stacoviak: There were a couple of times he even referenced Abe Lincoln in habeas corpus, a very particular episode where they were planting pie holes or something like that. in the HooliCon conference so that they can gain users. And that was a by any means necessary thing.

[00:38:32] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah.

[00:38:32] Adam Stacoviak: And it’s wild. Like you watch that show. So, I mean, like that stuff happens. I’m not sure if it happens that dramatically in the world. Right.

[00:38:38] Chuck Carpenter: That

[00:38:38] Adam Stacoviak: was so cool.

[00:38:40] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. They ended

[00:38:40] Adam Stacoviak: up getting a lot of users, phones caught on fire and blew up. , they ended up getting all these users and then ultimately other things happened, which led to the story arc of Pied Piper.

[00:38:51] But you see that you see these folks struggle with integrity, and I think that shows a great example of playing out someone [00:39:00] who really desires to be towing that line of integrity and you see him struggle. You see it in the character and you ultimately see it in the story arc of the entire show and the product Pied Piper and the team.

[00:39:14] That’s an example of the struggle. Satire, obviously, but it’s very real as well. Yeah, I think

[00:39:21] Robbie Wagner: it’s such a stretch from reality. I think it applies the most on, like, the extreme ends of the spectrum. Like, they’re a startup. They had to do some things to not be not in existence anymore. Then the other side of things, you’re like huge fang company.

[00:39:38] Or, sorry, Menomina companies. That’s the new fang. It’s Menomina. No, no, no, stop. Just put it, put, you can’t move on until, we can put a pin in his chair. Okay.

[00:39:47] Jerod Santo: What’s this Menominal thing?

[00:39:48] Robbie Wagner: Uh, Meta, Apple, Netflix, Amazon. Wasn’t that, uh, Elijah? NVIDIA. I don’t know, I’m probably not getting them all right. we’re working on our last.

[00:39:56] Yeah, Microsoft. Okay. Microsoft’s the first one. Oh, okay. Because [00:40:00] we think Microsoft should have always been included in the thing. But, anyway. They probably wanted it in there and they weren’t. They’re like, what’s

[00:40:05] Jerod Santo: wrong with these guys? Alright, keep going. Yeah,

[00:40:07] Robbie Wagner: what was I saying? Oh, yeah. So, those big companies.

[00:40:10] They’re like, you’re in a board meeting. They’re like, okay, if we do this to fuck over everyone, we make 500 million. That’s a hard, like, yeah, no, we can’t, we’ve got to be nice. Like, you know, I’ve never been in that level of a conversation, right? So I can’t like speak to that, but I think there’s probably a lot of that.

[00:40:28] And they also never say it that way. Nobody ever says that if we make this strategic pivot, it may harm the current environment for certain users, but we will gain these other users and give them this tangential benefit and profit. You need another yacht? I need another yacht. I could use my first yacht.

[00:40:47] I think this is a good start, yeah. I

[00:40:50] Adam Stacoviak: lost my yacht. Yeah. It just, I went on shore, we ported.

[00:40:56] Robbie Wagner: Yeah.

[00:40:57] Adam Stacoviak: And I was like, Where’s my yacht? Yeah. You had too [00:41:00] much.

[00:41:03] Robbie Wagner: That one ran out of gas. Forget it. Yeah. Every time you buy a new one, the text captain and all

[00:41:07] Adam Stacoviak: bye.

[00:41:09] Robbie Wagner: Got a whole new captain.

[00:41:11] Integrity and certifications and you know, this is a whole thing about it’s funny individuals. We were speaking first about individuals building reputation. Versus a company reputation. And we don’t actually have the same, like, moral agreements from the humans to the group of humans who are our company, though.

[00:41:31] I will say that, because the morality kind of strips away the larger, the more growth and success you get because you’re perceived differently. You did what you had to do to get there. Now if you fall down and go burning, they’re like, oh yeah, fuck that guy, he’s a jerk. But if it goes the other direction, it often feels perceived the other way.

[00:41:48] Jerod Santo: Yeah. So the ends do justify the means. Yeah, I mean, to a degree. You’ve seen that

[00:41:55] Robbie Wagner: show, yeah, you’ve seen that show Succession, right? That’s not based on any kind of morality, even [00:42:00] within their I haven’t seen it. Can you tell us what it’s

[00:42:02] Adam Stacoviak: about? That is such a phenomenal, yet very, very disgusting show.

[00:42:06] Absolutely. Was it cancelled? No. It ended very well. It went

[00:42:10] Robbie Wagner: on probably a season too long. Maybe they wrapped it up, but it was cancelled. Was it? It

[00:42:14] riverside_robbiethewagner_raw-synced-video-cfr_whiskey_web and wha_0266: wasn’t canceled. It was. No, it wasn’t. No, it ended. I call that. It ended. They wrapped it

[00:42:20] Robbie Wagner: up. I read that it was canceled. Maybe I’m wrong. Maybe I’m canceled. I think you’re canceled.

[00:42:24] No way, man. For saying that HBO will never sponsor us. That’s true. Brian Cox was one of the best

[00:42:29] Adam Stacoviak: roles ever. Yeah, it’s amazing. , stellar acting all around, gripping, and obscene richness.

[00:42:36] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, I mean it’s, it’s an incredible, uh, Showcase a statement about what actually fuck you rich is and that family was fuck you

[00:42:45] Adam Stacoviak: rich.

[00:42:46] They were so F you rich. They were F you rich against themselves. Yeah, for real that’s how I mean there was no there was no line that would not be crossed.

[00:42:57] Robbie Wagner: Yeah Agreed. It’s a great show. So [00:43:00] whether Robbie thinks it was cancelled or not. Did they murder their

[00:43:03] Jerod Santo: father to take the throne?

[00:43:05] Robbie Wagner: no, they tried.

[00:43:06] They certainly tried versus a murder. Yeah. The business murder. Yes. Yeah.

[00:43:11] Jerod Santo: Cause that goes back to gladiator. You know, he just, he hugs his dad. Yeah. Caesar. He just hugs him to death. You know that? Yeah. Walking Phoenix or gladiator.

[00:43:22] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. I remember.

[00:43:23] Jerod Santo: He realizes. So I just watched this recently. That’s why I haven’t, I haven’t down Pat.

[00:43:27] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. So, uh,

[00:43:29] Jerod Santo: Marcus Aurelius is old. He’s dying. He’s going to name. Russell Crowe as the next Caesar, , Maximus, whatever.

[00:43:36] riverside_robbiethewagner_raw-synced-video-cfr_whiskey_web and wha_0266: Maximus Aurelius.

[00:43:37] Jerod Santo: Yeah, whatever his name is,

[00:43:38] riverside_robbiethewagner_raw-synced-video-cfr_whiskey_web and wha_0266: Maximus.

[00:43:40] Jerod Santo: And Joaquin Phoenix, who is the heir to the throne, goes into his dad’s tent and his dad tells him, you will not be Caesar. And he’s like, all I ever wanted to do was have you be proud of me, dad.

[00:43:49] Like, that kind of fits in. And he’s like, my son! And then they get close and he hugs him, and he straight strangles him to death and takes the throne. That’s succession [00:44:00] right there.

[00:44:00] Robbie Wagner: That’s some succession. Speaking of things that strangle you to death, how do you feel about TypeScript?

[00:44:06] Jerod Santo: Well, I stay as far away as I can.

[00:44:09] Just like Marcus Aurelius should have stayed away from his son.

[00:44:12] riverside_robbiethewagner_raw-synced-video-cfr_whiskey_web and wha_0266: Yeah.

[00:44:12] Jerod Santo: Yeah.

[00:44:13] riverside_robbiethewagner_raw-synced-video-cfr_whiskey_web and wha_0266: Always have a buddy. That’s good.

[00:44:16] Jerod Santo: That’s good. That’s a good pivot into the way. You read the web back in the There was what not on this episode? Yeah, we’ve got a lot of what not. A lot of what not on this episode.

[00:44:22] Who

[00:44:22] Adam Stacoviak: is upset about the state of front end?

[00:44:24] basically just utterly disgusted with it.

[00:44:26] Robbie Wagner: Right. How basically, Thoroughly, To prove at some point all business logic and API, All of that stuff has come somehow into the front end. I think, SQL in the front end is great. I, I can’t remember if it’s Ken C. Dodds who was saying this, but I, I don’t know, somebody was saying like we have a ton of folks who know React really well, subject matter experts, so rather than reskill them across the stack, how about we just figure out a way to learn once write everywhere?

[00:44:58] Jerod Santo: Yeah, no.

[00:44:59] Robbie Wagner: [00:45:00] And I think that speaks to this state It’s gonna be a hard pass

[00:45:03] for me. me Yeah.

[00:45:04] Yeah. Yeah.

[00:45:05] Jerod Santo: No, I mean. I like Kent, but I don’t like that idea at all.

[00:45:08] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, I think there’s something to be said for, I want to learn how to do things, you know, maybe not applied to frontend, backend, database, everything, but like, for building a frontend, I should be able to write it the same way forever, and you just compile it to do whatever new shit you want behind the scenes.

[00:45:23] Jerod Santo: I got a real problem with that particular attitude, which is extant in our industry, which is like, I’m only going to learn one thing. Okay. And you guys just work around my lack of knowledge for the rest of my career. You know, like how about no, that’s my stance. No, no, it’s an

[00:45:42] Robbie Wagner: option.

[00:45:42] Jerod Santo: It’s

[00:45:43] Robbie Wagner: not, not on the list.

[00:45:45] You may check yes or no, or maybe it depends.

[00:45:50] Jerod Santo: This one doesn’t even depend, I just think that’s a terrible idea. It’s so myopic. do you guys think? Rails? Yeah, what about Rails researchers? Uh, yeah, [00:46:00] no, I think I

[00:46:00] Adam Stacoviak: won’t talk about that. I won’t talk about that too. Yeah, I won’t talk about that. They switched topics.

[00:46:03] No,

[00:46:05] Robbie Wagner: we can’t, we can’t talk about two things.

[00:46:07] Adam Stacoviak: We’re trumping your topic. Well, go ahead, moving on. Please, please go ahead. I was about to

[00:46:11] Jerod Santo: get a response to my Go ahead, get a pretty hot take, wasn’t it? Get a response. What’s

[00:46:15] riverside_robbiethewagner_raw-synced-video-cfr_whiskey_web and wha_0266: your

[00:46:16] Robbie Wagner: response? No, no, I was going to say, I think there’s a line. I think some of it should work, but I think sequel in the front end, not a good thing.

[00:46:23] That’s

[00:46:23] Jerod Santo: the line?

[00:46:23] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, well Just skip the ORM. I don’t, so I think we don’t need half the shit we have to begin with. Because Astro is the best way to write apps. Use HTML, CSS, and JavaScript. You don’t need react and all the shit everywhere. Just like write with web standards, use good accessibility, do all this stuff.

[00:46:43] And then like, then if you need some kind of more intense backend or, you know, database use the technologies that already exist for that. Rails is great. Use them. MySQL or Postgres or whatever, like directly. You don’t need, you don’t like ORMs. Is that what you’re saying? It [00:47:00] depends.

[00:47:00] It depends. I like the sugar of ORMs. I mean, Django and Rails had ORMs, that’s why. True. True. I like good rm. Yeah, they’re true web frameworks because they Yeah. Give you fucking login. If you don’t give me login, don’t tell me. Next. JS is a is a full web framework. It’s not. I gotta have 45 other SaaS things that Triangle Company has invested in in order to make a full web framework in that context.

[00:47:24] So

[00:47:25] Adam Stacoviak: talk about the dependencies of SAEs on a startup. You’ve got authentication, login, various things like that, you have to subscribe to to deliver your application. It’s like, nah, man.

[00:47:36] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, we’ve replaced opinionated frameworks that had all that with a bunch of other services that you still don’t write yourself.

[00:47:43] Jerod Santo: Which I think is why Rails is having a moment again. Because they’re like, hey guys, remember this? This was better before we went over here. It’s better. It’s back. It’s better again. I don’t know. I personally never left the old way because I’m a stodgy curmudgeon. And so I’ve just been waiting. I’ve just been doing it.

[00:47:59] And [00:48:00] here it is. You’re about to have your moment. You described my stack right over there. You’re like, HTML, CSS. I’m like, yeah.

[00:48:04] Adam Stacoviak: Well, the sad part is though. We’re still citizens. Yes, we are. Almost ten years deep into a platform that was not written in Rails.

[00:48:13] Jerod Santo: Which, I have remorse

[00:48:14] Adam Stacoviak: over,

[00:48:14] Jerod Santo: but Jared does not get it.

[00:48:16] that has all the same ideals that Rails has, so it’s fine. I get it. We use Elixir in Phoenix. Okay. It’s reasonable. That

[00:48:22] Robbie Wagner: is also continuing to, like, evolve and be great. Totally. And that is, like, kind

[00:48:27] Jerod Santo: of timeless software. I agree. Well, I picked it eight years ago, and I’m still happy with it, which, you can’t say that about too many things.

[00:48:34] Right. Right? Yeah, that’s

[00:48:35] riverside_robbiethewagner_raw-synced-video-cfr_whiskey_web and wha_0266: true.

[00:48:35] Jerod Santo: For sure. That being said, Rails is cool, and if I was starting from fresh again, because I used to do Rails before that. I would definitely pick it back up again.

[00:48:43] Robbie Wagner: Yeah.

[00:48:43] Jerod Santo: Because Ruby is a great language.

[00:48:45] Robbie Wagner: And DHH is nice now. And it’s making friends online. He convinced me to buy a Framework laptop, so.

[00:48:52] Oh, how was that? It’s pretty dope. I just haven’t been able to spend enough time to, like, make it my regular driver. Right. But it’s that and the [00:49:00] Omacube. Is really cool. Yeah, that

[00:49:02] Jerod Santo: does sound

[00:49:02] Robbie Wagner: cool. Yeah. Yeah. So I like being able to upgrade it if I want and uh, even when my AppleCare wears out, I can get it fixed.

[00:49:12] Jerod Santo: how much does that cost?

[00:49:13] Robbie Wagner: I ended up buying one on sale, so it was under a grand.

[00:49:16] Jerod Santo: Okay.

[00:49:16] Robbie Wagner: Yeah. So it’s usually actually you can get a nicely put together one for about a grand, , 800 to a thousand. That’s it.

[00:49:22] Jerod Santo: Okay. I’m about to get a new laptop and I, it’s affordable. I’m so deeply in the Apple ecosystem.

[00:49:30] Yeah, same. I’m afraid to like peek out and see ‘cause the cocoon is so warm and snuggly. It is. Yeah. You’re not wrong. I agree. You’re, you’re not wrong. Yeah. But I’m, I am, You’re, you’re a little curious. I am Lindsay, dip out a little bit. Yeah. I

[00:49:44] Robbie Wagner: think the workaround is you have like a rack Mount Max.

[00:49:48] That you can have, like, I message your Linux so you can still message people and shit, but yeah, maybe. That does sound like a workaround. But I mean, it’s a funny thing because you can [00:50:00] buy MacBook Air and a Frame Linux laptop and still spend less than you would on a MacBook Pro. Like, a real, like, high level one.

[00:50:09] Yeah. So it’s crazy that that’s the case, but it absolutely is. Yeah. So there’s that. I don’t know. VHH was able to make it run his Apple XDR display even too. No, he said it never worked. It worked. No, he told me it worked. I just didn’t get the one level up that he did that made that work. But it would be a 200 upgrade for me to do that if I was like, I’m in.

[00:50:30] And then make that work too. So, hard to say. But I say it’s worth trying. Especially at the price points. Anyway. This episode is brought to you by Framework Laptops. I’m just trying to find people I can bill. Yeah. This episode is sponsored by Casey Masterpiece Barbecue Sauce. Oh. I don’t know. Is it legal to say

[00:50:51] Adam Stacoviak: you’re sponsored when you’re not sponsored?

[00:50:52] Uh, we do

[00:50:53] Robbie Wagner: it anyway. Is there rules to this? Holy shit, hold on. We’ve been doing this for like I think there’s an FCC regulation against that. Does the [00:51:00] FCC cover things on the Apple podcast? They won’t let me be. Or let me be me, so let me see. That’s exactly what I was thinking. I was like, do I say it or do I not say it?

[00:51:10] You should. I’m like,

[00:51:10] Jerod Santo: they won’t get it. But I underestimated you, Robbie. I underestimated you a lot. Eminem. Yes, by the way. He is the GOAT.

[00:51:18] Robbie Wagner: Yes.

[00:51:19] Jerod Santo: Apparently.

[00:51:19] Robbie Wagner: He’s 51 now, so. So that makes me feel old. Yeah. Yeah, preaching to the choir here.

[00:51:27] Jerod Santo: How do you guys normally end these shows?

[00:51:29] Robbie Wagner: Uh. We’re done, bye. Yeah, no, the.

[00:51:31] Get out. We do try to ask at the end,

[00:51:33] Is there anything you guys do if you weren’t in tech?

[00:51:37] riverside_robbiethewagner_raw-synced-video-cfr_whiskey_web and wha_0266: Oh,

[00:51:37] Robbie Wagner: snap. Like, you don’t have to possess this skill. If you just think this is cool and I wish I could do it, you can choose that too. Yeah.

[00:51:43] Jerod Santo: I would probably be the emperor of the Roman Empire. How often do you think about the Roman Empire?

[00:51:52] Just watch Gladiator there at night. Yeah, you’re like, that seems like a good job. I like how you can just do this or this. Yeah. And everyone just does what you say.

[00:51:59] riverside_robbiethewagner_raw-synced-video-cfr_whiskey_web and wha_0266: Yeah. [00:52:00] My son does. What

[00:52:04] Jerod Santo: would I

[00:52:08] Adam Stacoviak: do if I wasn’t in tech?

[00:52:11] So many things. Am I retired? You

[00:52:14] Robbie Wagner: can be, whatever you want. This is your dream. This is a scenario. I mean, Jared was able to time travel back to the Roman Empire. Well, the Roman Empire’s coming back. to us.

[00:52:22] Jerod Santo: Yeah. Technically, I brought it to the future, but that’s a nitpick.

[00:52:26] Adam Stacoviak: Yeah, that’s fair. If I’m retired, I would probably begin to garden.

[00:52:31] I’d probably pickle my own pickles. I’d probably make guacamole every single day. I’d probably have my own avocado tree. I would probably have my own jalapeno tree and a serrano tree or plant.

[00:52:45] riverside_robbiethewagner_raw-synced-video-cfr_whiskey_web and wha_0266: That’s how

[00:52:46] Adam Stacoviak: unschooled I am on this process of gardening. Well, you haven’t started. I would, uh, first principles, not because I’m a weirdo, but because I really want to eat good food.

[00:52:56] And there’s something magical that happens when you eat really good food. [00:53:00] And I’m not talking like pizza good food. Yeah. but like fresh vegetables, fresh spices, make your own yogurt kind of situation, , make your own sauces. There’s something that changes with your food whenever you’ve done that, and you kind of don’t want to eat out anymore.

[00:53:16] riverside_robbiethewagner_raw-synced-video-cfr_whiskey_web and wha_0266: Yeah.

[00:53:16] Adam Stacoviak: Unless it’s like your favorite restaurant, and you’re like, nah, not today. That’s kind of where we’re at. I make a phenomenal burger. All right.

[00:53:28] The only thing stopped me from going layers and layers deeper is that I don’t have time to grind my own meat. Oh, right. I don’t got that. But if you had time, if I was not in tech and I was retired, I would be grinding my own meat. I would be sirloin with ribeye and you know, all the stuff

[00:53:46] Robbie Wagner: definitely make my own

[00:53:47] Adam Stacoviak: my own ground meat.

[00:53:50] I’d

[00:53:50] Robbie Wagner: make my

[00:53:50] Adam Stacoviak: own bun.

[00:53:51] Robbie Wagner: Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. That guy in L. A. on the burger show, who has the butcher shop, he’s like a chef and he has his own butcher [00:54:00] shop. And then he gets like a bakery out in town to do his potato rolls for his burgers. They’re amazing.

[00:54:06] Adam Stacoviak: I’d fly my own plane to Columbia to get my beans myself from Raul, who’s a longtime friend.

[00:54:13] And I’m now a supporter of his, his farm. We have a co op. We would shake hands, maybe kiss a cheek. And I come back with some fresh beans and I grind them that day.

[00:54:25] Jerod Santo: Yeah.

[00:54:25] Adam Stacoviak: And I make some good coffee.

[00:54:26] Jerod Santo: Nice. Nice. That’s what I would do if I wasn’t in tech. You could be my chef in the Roman Empire.

[00:54:31] Robbie Wagner: Yeah, you could be my chef.

[00:54:35] I would direct

[00:54:36] Adam Stacoviak: the directors. Yeah,

[00:54:38] Robbie Wagner: that’s fair. Yeah, and then yeah, if you guys have anything you want to plug or mention that we didn’t get to. I’ll say we have

[00:54:44] Adam Stacoviak: a show coming out with DHH this week. So it’s Tuesday. It should come out tomorrow. It’s probably gonna come out Thursday. When’s

[00:54:50] Jerod Santo: this gonna come out?

[00:54:52] Robbie Wagner: Mmm, not for a while.

[00:54:53] Adam Stacoviak: Okay. Two to four weeks. You’ll have heard it already. It’s out there. It’s in the past. Look at our feed. You probably already listened to it. ChangeLog. [00:55:00] fm. look for something that says, it’s a Rails world.

[00:55:03] Jerod Santo: It might not be called that.

[00:55:05] Robbie Wagner: It’ll probably say rails.

[00:55:08] Adam Stacoviak: I think I’m still down with that title.

[00:55:10] I don’t care. All right. Awesome.

[00:55:12] Jerod Santo: All

[00:55:12] Robbie Wagner: right. Cool. Thanks guys. Thanks.

[00:55:14] Jerod Santo: Thank you. Cheers

[00:55:15] Adam Stacoviak: y’all.

[00:55:16] Jerod Santo: Ciao. Ciao.

[00:55:17] Robbie Wagner: Oh, wow.

[00:55:18] Outro: You’ve been watching Whiskey Web and Whatnot. Recorded in front of a live studio audience. What the fuck are you talking about, Chuck? Enjoyed the show? Subscribe. You know, people don’t pay attention to these, right? Head to whiskey.fund for merchant to join our Discord server. I’m serious, it’s like 2% of people who actually click these links. And don’t forget to leave us a five star review and tell your friends about the show. All right, dude, I’m outta here. Still got it.