RobbieTheWagner 
Charles William Carpenter III [00:00:00] Intro: Welcome to Syntax. Welcome to a brand new episode of the Front End Happy Hour podcast. Welcome to this week’s JS Party. Live from Ship Shape Studios, this is Whiskey Web and Whatnot. With your hosts, Robbie the Wagner, and me, Charles William Carpenter III. That’s right Charles. We drink whiskey and talk about web development.
[00:00:27] Intro: I mean, it’s all in the name. It’s not that deep. This is Whiskey Web and Whatnot. Do not adjust your set.
[00:00:36] Robbie Wagner: Okay, welcome to another wine web and whatnot. You might have usually heard of us as whiskey web and whatnot, but the logistics of the venue won’t allow us to have whiskey. So we are doing wine.
[00:00:48] Robbie Wagner: , we have a special guest with us. Carlo, how’s it going? Hi, Carlo Piano. Yeah. Nice. Nice to have you here. Uh, could you please give a few sentences about who you are and what you do?
[00:00:58] Carlo Piana: Okay. I’m an [00:01:00] Italian lawyer. , I’m an IT lawyer, so I’ve been practicing IT law for more than 30 years now, and I’ve been for roughly 25 years involved in open source. Okay. I’ve been, , the general counsel of the Free Souther Foundation in Europe for about 11, 12 years. And, uh, now I’m the former for.
[00:01:24] Carlo Piana: Like about 25 minutes. The former, chair of the board of the open source initiative. Yeah. And now I’m just a humble and humble for a lawyer is a big word. Humble, um, humble, uh, board member and member of the open source AI company, the open source in industry. Okay. That’s it. Very cool. And where in Italy are you from?
[00:01:46] Carlo Piana: I am based in Milan. So I work in Milano. the very dead center of Milano, but I actually come from a region like a hundred kilometer North in Piedmont is the only part of Piedmont [00:02:00] that do not produce any kind of decent one. Oh wow. So it’s a got outta there spot in everywhere else you can have great wines like Barolo, Barco, BARDA, and whites also.
[00:02:14] Carlo Piana: Yeah. And sparking wine also. Very good. Yeah. Everywhere in, in, up in the mountains, down the glaciers, everywhere. But my place, nothing.
[00:02:24] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah,
[00:02:25] Carlo Piana: I understand why
[00:02:25] Chuck Carpenter: you left, shit. Yes,
[00:02:27] Carlo Piana: just, but unfortunately the trade wine also are, yeah. I can enjoy. It’s not, it’s not too far. Yeah.
[00:02:36] Chuck Carpenter: That’s great.
[00:02:37] Chuck Carpenter: Well, speaking of wine, that’s a great segue into us having wine.
[00:02:41] Chuck Carpenter: I’m gonna have to force onto you non Italian wine, unfortunately, but it is, it’s a poncho. Uh, yeah. IL Coe. Yeah. I can’t switch to a French Jackson right now, but Fare
[00:02:53] Carlo Piana: Coe. My
[00:02:53] Chuck Carpenter: French is Laos. Yeah, Flury, which is a town in, uh, it’s near [00:03:00] Avani, I think. not Nu, that’s Italian. I’m tough for my life. Yeah, I was gonna say yes.
[00:03:03] Chuck Carpenter: Uh, it is near, eon. That’s where, yes. Okay. Leo down there. Yes. Nui is actually a winery in Italy that I love. Yes. That’s something else I got. Anyway, this is GME is the grape. And, uh, yeah, I gotta do fake sounds I’ve got this little travel thing, so,
[00:03:24] Carlo Piana: okay.
[00:03:24] Chuck Carpenter: Okay. Yeah. And for those not watching on the live stream, what I have added was like some little round thing to make pouring simpler.
[00:03:32] Chuck Carpenter: May I? Absolutely. Okay. Thank you very much. So, nice color. Yeah. Hmm. I don’t know. Gamay has been my jam recently. Really? Like the last year or so. Hmm. As one of many. I’m gonna hand to Robert behind you please. so this part of the show, we, uh, just try to experience the drink a little bit or the smell.
[00:03:54] Chuck Carpenter: What are you, what are you picking up? We’ll, taste it. We have a highly advanced rating [00:04:00] system, so we should have pre-trained you on this, but it’s from zero to eight tentacles here, and it’s a joke. I make a lot of sarcasm, but zero is just terrible. You would never have this again. Four, middle of the road, eight being amazing.
[00:04:13] Chuck Carpenter: You have been turned on the French wine zone.
[00:04:15] Carlo Piana: Possibly. So you want me to taste wine in a plastic cup?
[00:04:18] Chuck Carpenter: I know nothing but the best for you. That’s right. That’s rough. So, well, you know, easy at the venue, so why not
[00:04:24] Carlo Piana: directly from the bottle?
[00:04:26] Chuck Carpenter: I like, yeah, I like what your thoughts are. I mean, we’re friends now, so possibly, but actually the nose is very light for me.
[00:04:33] Chuck Carpenter: Right. Wow. Okay, so I just want, , everyone at this table to recognize that I know what I’m doing when it comes to wine. You all are surprised and do, are enjoying it. I’m surprised at the flavor profile, not necessarily that it’s the best wine I’ve ever had, but, uh, I will give it. I sure if you want Go ahead.
[00:04:53] Chuck Carpenter: Go ahead. One translate. Zero to eight. So we’re No, it’s not definitely no. Zero developers. And so things are index [00:05:00] based. They’re zero. Uh, octopus can have eight tentacles or none. It’s probably dead at none, but it is possible. So
[00:05:06] Carlo Piana: it’s a nine race, it’s almost Yeah. Nine tentacles, octopus. Nine
[00:05:10] Chuck Carpenter: potentially, but zero would be no tentacles.
[00:05:12] Chuck Carpenter: So
[00:05:13] Carlo Piana: I would give it a five.
[00:05:15] Chuck Carpenter: Five, yes. I think that’s fair. I think that’s crazy. Uh, Robert? Yes. Yeah, this is, uh. Yeah. Not what I would reach for normally. Yeah. But it’s, it’s not bad. Yeah. I think vibe is appropriate. Mm-Hmm. It doesn’t give
[00:05:28] Carlo Piana: me vibes.
[00:05:29] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. No vibes. But it’s not terrible. Yeah. I think the GME can be almost like a pinot with a bit more body.
[00:05:36] Chuck Carpenter: And I’ve enjoyed some gmas. , this isn’t my favorite GME either, by the way. So this is just on, it’s a little bit too warm. Yes. Agreed. Yeah. It got really warm right here where we’re at. So apologies for that. The sun is really coming in right
[00:05:48] Carlo Piana: now. But you, you American people used, , air conditioning too.
[00:05:53] Carlo Piana: Hide high. Fill it. Okay, we’re gonna get
[00:05:56] Chuck Carpenter: there. We’re gonna get there. Oh, because I do have some feels about that. yeah. [00:06:00] I think that you don’t reach for air conditioning soon enough. That’s all. Or put them in enough rooms, especially the sleeping room.
[00:06:08] Carlo Piana: Yeah. Okay.
[00:06:10] Chuck Carpenter: No, nevermind. We’re gonna get there.
[00:06:11] Chuck Carpenter: No, no. Yeah. Cut back around. So come, I won’t be surprised.
[00:06:14] Carlo Piana: I don’t have AC at, at home at all. In I, I have, I have AC at the office. Of course, yes. But not at home, because that’s the daytime. It’s, it’s not,
[00:06:23] Chuck Carpenter: yeah. Okay. Okay. Well, I don’t know. I still, maybe I’m just weak. There’s probably that possibility because also in the summer you wear blazers.
[00:06:32] Chuck Carpenter: And then go into the office with some air conditioning maybe, right. Honestly, I don’t
[00:06:36] Carlo Piana: wear laser in the office. Okay. So, um, I started when I was younger. Okay. Double breast cufflings? Yes. Uh, the whole deal. He, or three, three pieces. Yes. Now it’s, nah, that’s just overhead. It’s, uh, rubbish. All right.
[00:06:52] Carlo Piana: And my clients say, so you’re wearing suit. Yeah. And you’re like, I don’t need a suit to do my job. Turns out and eventually to do my job, [00:07:00] I’m, the more relaxed I am, the better I, I keep work, concentrate on this stuff. Yeah. It’s a very valid point. And I
[00:07:04] Chuck Carpenter: think that applies in many places. Yeah. Yes. , so I’m gonna come back for a moment and kind of do my own rating.
[00:07:10] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. I do find this a bit tart. I like a little more dryness through a gme. I have maybe a six, five and a half, maybe five and a half for me. Okay. It’s not my, I’m just, comparing it to other GMATs I’ve had, and I have enjoyed the crate quite a bit. This one, the Wegmans in the neighborhood didn’t quite have a vast selection.
[00:07:28] Chuck Carpenter: So Alaska year, we are, that sometimes happens. And Wegmans is just a, a grocery, uh, store chain that is out here on the East coast. Um, how coast is it?
[00:07:37] Carlo Piana: It’s not very old. Is.
[00:07:40] Chuck Carpenter: Uh, let’s see. That’s that too. Oh, it’s very young. Yeah. 2020. That makes a lot of sense too,
[00:07:45] Carlo Piana: from the color. It’s very young. Maybe you should, it, it should age maybe.
[00:07:50] Carlo Piana: That’s a good point. No, no, not, not enough refinement in oak. Yeah. ‘cause it’s sounded bit too fruity. It’s, uh, under expressed. Okay. [00:08:00] Alright,
[00:08:01] Chuck Carpenter: well next time we’ll bring, we’ll bring it for you, you know, we’ll do it in. Cool. Cool.
[00:08:07] Carlo Piana: Oh, anytime. Anytime
[00:08:08] Chuck Carpenter: could happen. You wait, you, you wait. You’re gonna learn some things.
[00:08:12] Chuck Carpenter: My, my, my guest, you might rescind that. My guest, but, uh,
[00:08:15] Chuck Carpenter: okay, so let’s talk about, and I think this is very interesting. So you have a long career in it, a long career in technology and I think it is somewhat kind of top of mind. ‘cause I feel like over the not, I feel I have noticed. Over the last couple of years.
[00:08:30] Chuck Carpenter: Mm-Hmm. That there’s a lot of discussion about like licensing and enforced licensing, , changes of licensing and kind of what that means for businesses or certain open source projects. But I’ve also come to understand, and this may not be true, but it is kind of hard to enforce and litigate to a degree.
[00:08:48] Chuck Carpenter: Is that true or
[00:08:51] Carlo Piana: it’s a complex issue. Yes. actually, , licensing in open source is pretty much working the same way as [00:09:00] in proprietary software. Yeah. So you have copyright, you have people infringing on your copyright, and you go to court and say, oh, or communication. We, we tend to not to go to court very easy when to, enforce and, , compliance, we like open source.
[00:09:17] Carlo Piana: The, the rule is that first you try to. get people to their sense. So it’s a you are doing wrong. We, educate them. That’s, it’s mostly an education process. Yeah. Of course, in the background there is threat of litigation and surprisingly few cases end up important.
[00:09:39] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah,
[00:09:39] Carlo Piana: of course. Litigating is, is very expensive here in the States.
[00:09:43] Carlo Piana: Oh, yes. Even more so. but there are a few cases, in Europe we had a case, I wrote a couple of cases in Italy.
[00:09:50] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah.
[00:09:50] Carlo Piana: Uh, one was settled favorably, one was one and slow, I would say. Mm-Hmm. so yes, it’s possible. you have [00:10:00] to assess your, your chances and, uh, if, uh, it’s worth the effort.
[00:10:05] Carlo Piana: Many time, sometimes you cannot extract much damages. Right. But, uh, if you, if your aim is to convincing people to comply, that’s, uh, that’s a good guess.
[00:10:16] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. Yeah. I think that’s like always the most idealized intent is just to comply with the license, whatever that is.
[00:10:23] Carlo Piana: Um, to, elaborate on your question, , licensing.
[00:10:28] Carlo Piana: it’s not easy. It’s, uh, I, I’m a lawyer, so for me, a legal question are kind of easy, but I, I acknowledge, some are not intuitive to people with, without a specific background. Yes. Not just lawyers, but lawyers with specific background. But there is a growing corpus of, uh, information that is available and people are educated, and there is a lot of knowledge.
[00:10:54] Carlo Piana: there is a lot of complexity, a lot of misunderstandings, , people believe in, they [00:11:00] understand open source, but they don’t.
[00:11:02] Carlo Piana: yeah. Sorry. I was, I was saying something rude, but I, well, hey, self-train is a adult show.
[00:11:09] Chuck Carpenter: You may
[00:11:10] Carlo Piana: do whatever. I know, but I have responsibility, so that’s fair. I cannot Fair speak entirely in my mind, but yeah.
[00:11:15] Carlo Piana: Nevermind. but we, we have seen a lot of, uh, as you said, people switching from open store to something which is similar but is not open source. Yes. And claiming they are doing still open source, but they or not. ‘cause there is a definition and the finishing is very stable. And if you step outside.
[00:11:36] Carlo Piana: Maybe you have your reasons, maybe there are people, uh, free riding on your efforts. There are a lot of very understandable yes, uh, issues, but this is breaking, uh, open source. So we are trying as much as possible to convince these people that there is a way a way, way to avoid, , exiting your pursuit.
[00:11:55] Carlo Piana: Okay? Because, , as soon as you are, uh, outside, you are like a [00:12:00] par and, uh, you are missing out. Right? Yes. but there is a problem and the problem is sustainability. Yes. many projects, uh, are making a lot of effort. People are using, companies are using this technology, , evolving this technology to their own benefit without, , giving back, right?
[00:12:18] Carlo Piana: Not in terms of money, not in terms of code. And this is a big problem. It is. and more and more there is, uh, requirements to fix vulnerabilities to support the software, to be liable for, , regulatory things and making software is becoming increasingly difficult. Yes. And so, , there is a gap between the resources that, and, and the benefits that, that are extract on this work.
[00:12:46] Carlo Piana: And what is be given there. So the burden is one on one side and the profits on the other side. This is not sustainable. Yeah. So we’re trying as much as possible to, not to, not to just pay, , in a qui pro quo fashion, but to make an effort [00:13:00] to at least be fundamental pieces of technology, the pieces that, , create the foundation of the entire technology to be.
[00:13:10] Carlo Piana: Made sustainable and as at OSI, we are trying to figure out if there is some way to match this. So
[00:13:20] Chuck Carpenter: is it fair to say then there’s not necessarily an open source license where there’s like a heavy commercial aspect that is the most advantageous for like that core group?
[00:13:30] Carlo Piana: within the definition of open source, there is A wide gamut of licenses. So you need to make a conscious effort to select the one that works for you. of course. If you are not just creating something from scratch, because nobody really does accomplish projects on maybe bits and bites but not too more complex. So you always have to use other people’s software.
[00:13:57] Carlo Piana: Right. And. There comes, [00:14:00] possible incompatibility so you are not just free to slap any kind of licenses on something which incorporates third-party software because they have their conditions and you have to, respect. Those conditions. ‘cause it’s, it’s a, it’s like a country. Yeah, it’s a social con.
[00:14:19] Carlo Piana: It’s of course it’s a copyright condition, which is a legal term, but it’s also a social contract. So I given something to you, nevermind the legal part. I’m giving something to you and I want that you respect my requirement because it’s something I make available.
[00:14:38] Chuck Carpenter: Right, but it, I mean, that gets complicated.
[00:14:41] Chuck Carpenter: Not only if you’re integrating software, but you have dependencies that could be three levels nested of that particular software that you incorporate.
[00:14:50] Chuck Carpenter: So then it’s like how far do you sort of respect that chain of requirement and then what you do on top of it, because I’ve taken [00:15:00] your things and made special thing and that gives me some sort of nuance and ownership to that.
[00:15:05] Chuck Carpenter: Okay.
[00:15:06] Carlo Piana: This is why we advocate for avoiding proliferation of licenses. Okay. So the more licenses, the sheer number of license PS complexity.
[00:15:17] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah.
[00:15:18] Carlo Piana: So already technology is already complex and you want to reduce this kind of friction. So I advocate not to create new licenses unless it’s strictly necessary.
[00:15:29] Carlo Piana: Yep. And to use the most popular. because if you start, digging deep into, , any accomplished software project, like a, the framework of this, this thing, it contains like maybe 50,000 packages. Yeah. And 50,000 license to be cleared. That thing looks dope. and this is just very simple and this is.
[00:15:53] Carlo Piana: , it is a complex problem, so you need tooling, you need, for, for achieving what we call compliance.
[00:15:59] Chuck Carpenter: [00:16:00] So do you think that like, and I’m sorry I cut you off a little bit there. So do you think that like, then you really have to think about your end goal and intent when you select a license? Because like, okay, that’s hardware that includes kind of an OS and like all kinds of things.
[00:16:14] Chuck Carpenter: If I’m like say writing a library for use. To other pieces of full on software, . I don’t have an intent to turn that into some sort of monetary project. It’s just like a passion project. So there’s simple licenses that kind of cover that, but I also kind of decide that upfront, like, I don’t mind, please really free use.
[00:16:35] Chuck Carpenter: But conversely, if you’re talking about some of the software we see here at. , all things open and some of it definitely has, , open source components and commercial components. And so thinking about what their, I’m trying not to name names, but I am thinking of folks who had like open source licenses and had to sort of, and you referenced this, where like competitors might be leveraging parts of their open source.
[00:16:58] Chuck Carpenter: Where it’s open though. [00:17:00] It’s open and they’re not contributing and they’re using the thing. So now you start to shift into like maybe open core within commercial aspects of your license.
[00:17:08] Carlo Piana: It’s uh, it’s a fascinating, but it would require much more time, probably more time than we have. Way more line. Let’s get it simple.
[00:17:16] Carlo Piana: So there are many reasons why you want to have open source. , released into the public. So, uh, you want monetize, you want to raise your profile, you want to help others. You want to create a platform that you can later, build upon. There’s many, many, many, many, many reasons. And, uh, you want to lower, and spread the effort to into many.
[00:17:38] Carlo Piana: This is the, the reason why Linux is so successful, right? Each and every of these must be matched to what is available in the licensing, , incoming licensing inbound. That’s, uh, that’s the word we use and match it with, uh, the outbound. And also it depends on, on, also on the, how you combine the technology, [00:18:00] right?
[00:18:00] Carlo Piana: So you can do a lot of things with, organizing the software in, in a clever way. So that’s, uh, and matching the business proposition with the licensing constraints. This is hard, not impossible. Yeah. So this, is this something I’m doing? So that’s, that’s the part I’m, I’m advising people, , about. one thing is, which is not acceptable, is wait and switch.
[00:18:22] Carlo Piana: Ah, uh, pretending to be open source. So gathering a community, gathering the following in, and then switching to something else. Yeah, this is not acceptable, because that is, uh, waste of time and. Basically it gives open source a bad name. Yeah, for sure. uh, again, uh, people are doing this for very legitimate purposes and they are taking care of their own interest.
[00:18:45] Carlo Piana: I accept it, but , there is a limit. you can never cross the boundary otherwise, uh, you cannot complain that people go after you. Yeah, because people get annoyed very rapidly.
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[00:19:30] Chuck Carpenter: Well, I think the big problem is like. When you’re starting a project, you’re probably not thinking about monetization at all.
[00:19:36] Chuck Carpenter: So you’re like, it should be open source, you know, everyone can use it for free. And then you kind of start to get annoyed at the people not contributing back and stuff. So like, you don’t want to do the bait and switch, I get that. But like,
[00:19:47] Chuck Carpenter: what do you do in that instance of, you know, I’ve built this thing, it’s very popular, but no one is helping me or contributing financially.
[00:19:54] Carlo Piana: Yep. This is an old to common problem. , people are enthusiastic. So [00:20:00] that this is perfect. People enthusiast and they say, oh, everything. And then there’s the depression that people don’t respond. Other people don’t respond, coherently. So you have to switch to something else.
[00:20:11] Carlo Piana: And this is the phase. You lose many of the ee open source ’ cause maybe they overestimate. The importance of the project, the competitive landscape and. it’s a natural process. Many star projects and project write out the beauty of open source, as long it’s true open source, I mean, license wise is that main projects are picked up by, so, so it’s interesting.
[00:20:37] Carlo Piana: Let’s, let’s start from, this is the freedom of four because. sometimes people change their lives, so maybe it’s a one single person project. Very important. And the problem, this person changes profession get hired and the project gets abandoned. so the, the possibility to pick up the, the job and to carry over, that’s a very important
[00:20:58] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah, agreed.
[00:20:59] Chuck Carpenter: the [00:21:00] ability. To let the project not be completely pinned to the individual. Right. That’s the community aspect of it. And that’s supposed to be part of the intent is to have like a shared responsibility. Mm-Hmm.
[00:21:12] Chuck Carpenter: Once you start to get that momentum, does that mean though, essentially, if you have those intents that basically MIT licensing is, that’s like the best one.
[00:21:23] Chuck Carpenter: Just pick that. It’s easy. It’s the
[00:21:24] Carlo Piana: best there is. I don’t want to change. There is no best. Okay. , license. There is a coherent choice. That’s a very lawyer between your, your proposition and your goals. Yeah. And what you use if you have a nail high needed hammer. If you want to drill a hole, probably you would need the drill.
[00:21:43] Carlo Piana: but you, you have to select the right tool for the right zone. Yes. And many people don’t just, just go for. I default, , choice cause somebody else has done the same or ‘cause they have heard this or just because they copy paste some, some [00:22:00] license? Yes. Wait, this is the part, no developers
[00:22:02] Chuck Carpenter: would never copy paste.
[00:22:04] Chuck Carpenter: We completely come up with things from scratch, no help. Every time. Every time. Okay. Okay. That’s, that’s right. Okay. Yes. You know? Right.
[00:22:13] Carlo Piana: Yeah. Like some, sometimes they don’t think it’s right. Yes. People need to understand the consequences of their choices, and sometimes the best plan doesn’t survive the battle.
[00:22:25] Carlo Piana: That’s, that’s, uh, how things go. Yes. So you, quote unquote bet. On, on something. And you are, so you need to be ready to pivot. Yes. And sometimes people start with the best intention and then the reality kicks in and say, oh, but I have to make a living out of it. So they have to make, some decisions.
[00:22:47] Carlo Piana: Yes. And sometimes they say, okay, uh, go open court, for instance. Right. Which is a loss, but. the alternative is just to dry up everything. Yeah. And maybe it’s even so, uh, we’re not [00:23:00] commending open core ‘cause it’s, it requires to be a simple vendor, so it’s not a healthy situation overall, but sometimes it’s, uh, better than nothing.
[00:23:09] Carlo Piana: this is not the official position of si so it’s, uh, a lawyer looking at the situation and say, okay, this is, this is the description of what happens. Yes. Not making any judgment on it.
[00:23:22] Chuck Carpenter: And that’s okay. We’re looking more for the, your individual kind of feedback and opinion anyway, and you get that kind of nuance versus like the company position.
[00:23:30] Chuck Carpenter: Uh, I wanna be conscious of your time.
[00:23:32] Chuck Carpenter: I do want to talk some about the open source AI definition stuff. You guys Yeah. Just talked about. I feared you, you would, yeah, I, we were not at the talk ‘cause we were doing some podcasting here. Um, you, you were. Work actually. Yeah. Turns out. Uh, do you wanna tell us a little bit about it and, uh, you know what it is?
[00:23:50] Chuck Carpenter: And do you want more wine also?
[00:23:51] Carlo Piana: Yeah. No, no, no. we have the define open source. , open source is a term of trade, and we have come up with the definition of open source. So open [00:24:00] source is our thing. And software is one thing, and AI is a, is a different thing, but they, there two are. And coming together and more, I’m just doing this for
[00:24:09] Chuck Carpenter: good luck.
[00:24:09] Chuck Carpenter: I can’t only work for myself, it’s just, yeah.
[00:24:12] Carlo Piana: Uh, more and more AI is going to be part of the technological stack. Yes. And already there are many projects that describe themselves as, so you need to draw a line where this is open source. This is not true.
[00:24:28] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah.
[00:24:29] Carlo Piana: And since open source is a term that applied to software is.
[00:24:33] Carlo Piana: Is a home turf, uh, open source initiative. We decided that, if we didn’t, that somebody else would or, or maybe, or nobody. Or everybody. So there was, it would be just a mean nothing. Yeah. So we started this exercise and we planned to do it a bit longer, but technology moved too quickly, so we had to come up with a.
[00:24:58] Carlo Piana: Something which, which [00:25:00] made sense per se, but which, drives consensus. So we didn’t just sat in our room and think hard, what can possibly be? So we reach out people we consulting, we wanted to understand because you cannot just apply something that works for software to something which is not software or not just software.
[00:25:21] Carlo Piana: In order to port something to some different domain, you have to understand what can work and what cannot work. So you have to go to the the roots. to the basic proposition and apply it to the new domain. So we wanted to have the same level of innovation of, , ability of people to take something and transform into something else.
[00:25:44] Carlo Piana: To fork it. I’m sorry.
[00:25:45] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah.
[00:25:46] Carlo Piana: Um, not just using something and innovating on the top. This is one kind of innovation. It’s very good. Yep. But also to innovate to the sites and also to take the same technology and reshaping it, redoing for scratch. [00:26:00] Yes. Repurposing it, rebuilding it. More like
[00:26:02] Chuck Carpenter: taking the ideologies of the initial thing and then kind of doing a different spin on that.
[00:26:08] Carlo Piana: And for, for instance, reusing the same, , stack of software data and redo it just for, to see if. You come up with the same solution. Okay? So maybe you
[00:26:19] Chuck Carpenter: come up with something else, for example. And I just wanna kind of come up with some, like a more layman examples too, for the, for the non-law people.
[00:26:26] Chuck Carpenter: But, like say Meta has the llama, ma. Right. So you have that same engine, and if I want to have the same output and I decide I want to write it in a different language though. is that like a similar principle or, no, it’s not just
[00:26:42] Carlo Piana: a matter of
[00:26:42] Chuck Carpenter: language.
[00:26:42] Carlo Piana: So I’m not a technical person. So for if I say it’s profanities in, in, in technical and technical terms, but, , the idea is that you need to, Rebuild a new, a different type of la and so you will [00:27:00] need the, the data. Mm-Hmm. You will need the software made to create the data set. So you want to have the same software that has made, taken the data set and used to be to train the model.
[00:27:14] Chuck Carpenter: Yes.
[00:27:15] Carlo Piana: And the model. Okay. So what LAMA does offers in my understanding, is just the mobile.
[00:27:20] Chuck Carpenter: Yes.
[00:27:20] Carlo Piana: So it’s something you can use, right? You can replicate and use and build on the top, but this is the limited way.
[00:27:26] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. Right? Like so this is just like kind of the framework that gets you started and you have to feed your own data set. And what you’re saying is it actually is more holistically software model that you rework.
[00:27:37] Chuck Carpenter: So, which would be like the models, the input. And a similar output, but then you rework aspects of that. Yeah. And that’s still free use
[00:27:46] Carlo Piana: kind of thing, because
[00:27:47] Chuck Carpenter: this
[00:27:47] Carlo Piana: is, this is what open source is about. you don’t take anything for granted. You want to, have the ability, maybe just the theoretical ability to redo the same thing over maybe [00:28:00] perfecting it.
[00:28:00] Carlo Piana: Maybe adding more data, maybe having more spotting possible biases and removing them and redo a pure version, a more, a less biased version of the same technology. Yes, of course you can, rewrite from scratch or reusing component parts and, bits. Okay, so that’s, open source?
[00:28:19] Chuck Carpenter: Yes. Okay. since AI comes up, and I am very interested in this other aspect of like, so software developers, you know, we have this like tangential kind of like.
[00:28:30] Chuck Carpenter: It’s, is it coming for us in a way? How will it change our jobs? How will it change careers? And I’ve just heard mentioned many a times, like things like law practice will get simplified and less, uh, disrupted. By ai. So I wonder what your feeling, I mean, you’re in the heart of it, so you understand Yeah.
[00:28:48] Chuck Carpenter: What the power of AI is right now and how you think it will affect the career of lawyers because, oh, a brief, that would’ve taken me 20 hours now, takes me 20 minutes. My whole billing [00:29:00] like structure has changed. you know,
[00:29:02] Chuck Carpenter: so how do you think, how do you feel that AI may influence or disrupt. law practice.
[00:29:09] Chuck Carpenter: Because you say it’s expensive in the US It absolutely is.
[00:29:11] Carlo Piana: Does it make it less so? No, it has already disrupted. So it’s something not, to come. It’s already there. I’m not in merger and acquisition. Right. I know. but the, the The due diligence process is very boring, very repetitive.
[00:29:29] Carlo Piana: And that’s the ideal thing for pattern matching.
[00:29:34] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah.
[00:29:34] Carlo Piana: For language processing. Mm-Hmm. So this is the very lowest hanging fruit for, , removing a lot of unnecessary, , human labor and using pattern recognition. Yep. So, uh, that simplify a lot. Of course you have false negatives of course you have false positives, but I assure you.
[00:29:55] Carlo Piana: Working with lawyers, you would have maybe same, the same such [00:30:00] outcomes. Right. So it’s something happening now a lot of legal research can be, delegated to, ai. Again, it’s pattern recognition. so there is, there are nuances. So, the lawyer has many other jobs, so, like, uh, farming, farming is used to be very.
[00:30:17] Carlo Piana: Labor intensity now it’s very mechanical. Yes. After you do the, you understand the market. You select products, you, so everything’s changing and you have to, so you can, it’s something that’s happening. Happening. There’s no way back. So we have tover and to, , reduce the friction and reduce the, the most, disruptive, uh, companies.
[00:30:41] Carlo Piana: But it’s something that is going to not, it’s going to change. Is already changing. Yeah. As much as it’s changing the software developers. So if you have something that just creates API like this. You don’t have people trying to, starting to return, but you have to check because [00:31:00] it’s leaving it to, from a very lousy programming experience.
[00:31:04] Carlo Piana: If you leave it to, to compile Yeah. You know, or subject even, you will find something that looks like it was working, but if you pay close attention, it doesn’t. So that’s a, yeah.
[00:31:17] Chuck Carpenter: Um, it gets you, me started, it’s like a template that you still need to massage and something else, and it’ll tell you it works.
[00:31:22] Chuck Carpenter: You’re like, I got it. This, this is what you wanted. This is what you come back and you’re actually, I got this error. And then it’s like, oh, I’m sorry. You’re right. I didn’t account for it. Blah, blah, blah. And then, yeah, there’s iterations to it. It’s always, we all become managers of computers. So it’s a,
[00:31:37] Carlo Piana: the legal profession has a lot of similarities to, the solve the program much more than you will think.
[00:31:43] Carlo Piana: Yeah. And since I am exploring the inter intersection between the two. for instance, uh, I use GI and GitHub GI Lab for, drafting contracts. Oh, yeah. Version, right. I think it’s, it’s, it’s so natural and, and so people and lawyers, I have a [00:32:00] mindset that No way, but it’s incredibly useful. Uh, it’s much better than just, exchanging words, uh, red line or even, even worse, using, sorry, I don’t want to speak ill of, any company by Google Docs.
[00:32:17] Carlo Piana: I cannot stand that. Yeah. So I love many of the things that Google does, but this is a tragedy. Yeah. So especially ease for contract drafting.
[00:32:28] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. I think a, an assumption that like Ms. Word needed some cloud version that, you know, maybe like the, the source material wasn’t necessarily the best thing to iterate on to begin with.
[00:32:42] Chuck Carpenter: I don’t know possibility. Well, you have Microsoft Word in the cloud now. Now. Yes. Yes. But I’m just saying Google Docs got big because it was the MS Office suite. Sure. In the cloud. Yeah. And then of course Microsoft matched them and you know, whatever, blah, blah, blah. But yeah.
[00:32:55] Carlo Piana: But the paradigm of Microsoft is still documented this.
[00:32:59] Carlo Piana: Yes. Uh, Google [00:33:00] Docs is more, collaboration thing. Yeah. quantum crafting is not collaboration. Not necessarily. And it, it has the different stages. So it’s, uh,
[00:33:10] Chuck Carpenter: yeah, collaboration
[00:33:12] Carlo Piana: tool. I, I think
[00:33:13] Chuck Carpenter: the,
[00:33:13] Carlo Piana: the right tool is I use markdown. Yeah. , you’re legit. You have everything you need.
[00:33:20] Carlo Piana: You don’t need, and I use also libraries. Yeah. So it’s, uh. Yeah,
[00:33:25] Chuck Carpenter: see, you’re legit on,
[00:33:27] Carlo Piana: you know, of course
[00:33:28] Chuck Carpenter: you partake in the industry with which you help, navigate those litigation, , water. So I respect that.
[00:33:36] Carlo Piana: So I started looking into, to get and to the, the use of it.
[00:33:41] Carlo Piana: ‘cause they want to know, , bits of how software development work and say it all makes sense. So what, what about. of course I had to switch to a tax base, fork my markdown. Makes sense. ‘cause it’s nimble. It’s uh, it’s readable. It’s, uh, wait, wait. What’s your editor of choice? You said Neo Bim?
[00:33:59] Carlo Piana: My mind [00:34:00] would I use code, which is the open source version of VS Code. Yeah. Yeah, that’s a good one. I used to use Adam, but Atom was stopped by Microsoft, so Yeah. And I resist it as much as possible, but actually it’s a great piece of software. Yeah. And it’s open source, of course. It’s a single vendor and it’s open stores and it’s extensible, so that’s a lot of extension.
[00:34:21] Carlo Piana: So it’s, uh, it fits the bill.
[00:34:24] Carlo Piana: And of course I cannot use for, for many reason, I don’t want to use the, for the, the proprietor version, the vs code. Right. For many reasons. Yeah. But podium is, uh, it’s okay for me. That’s fair.
[00:34:37] Chuck Carpenter: Now I’ve got a really important question. So as a resident of Milano Yes.
[00:34:42] Chuck Carpenter: inter or mil know neither. You don’t watch football?
[00:34:47] Carlo Piana: no. No show. I, I, I, no, no. Initially it’s impossible not to, not to watch, uh, couch. Right. I grew in a Aven family, so my, I right, I forgot where you’re from. So, [00:35:00] my, my entire family, mother, father, , mother-in-law, Father-in-Law, everybody was given.
[00:35:07] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah.
[00:35:08] Carlo Piana: I used to be a, referee. Oh yes. What? Decent level. Okay. I respect top stops in the original. Yeah. I like it. , but I grew, disgusted by, uh, many of the bad things, so I cannot watch. I see much of it. Yeah, sometimes once, but, uh, yeah, but I respect those, uh, into it. And so, uh, if you ask me who’s leading the, the championship, I don’t know.
[00:35:36] Carlo Piana: Yeah, no,
[00:35:36] Chuck Carpenter: no. You don’t know who’s at
[00:35:37] Carlo Piana: the top
[00:35:37] Chuck Carpenter: to see. No, I’m, I’m
[00:35:38] Carlo Piana: more
[00:35:38] Chuck Carpenter: into, I can tell you who won the cadets last year.
[00:35:42] Carlo Piana: Inter Yes. Yes. That’s,
[00:35:44] Chuck Carpenter: that’s my Italian team. So yeah, the first match I ever saw in Europe live. Was at the sun and it was inter and Fiorentina, something like that. Jose Marino was there.
[00:35:56] Chuck Carpenter: I was like, yes. Yeah, okay, great time.
[00:35:58] Chuck Carpenter: But my, my sport is [00:36:00] mo Motorbiking. Oh, okay. I’m a decent motorbike myself. Yes. That’s dangerous. I stopped doing that when I had kids. I was like, what? What, what you drive? When now what do I drive? No. Oh. Used to drive. Yeah. I, I would mostly ride like cruise. Oh, no, uh, Ducati for me, no buzi, but maybe when, so I, I, I’m moving to Italy in next summer with my family, around Cuomo in Oh, that’s,
[00:36:26] Carlo Piana: that’s, yeah, that’s, uh, yeah.
[00:36:27] Carlo Piana: Chernobyl is where we want to go’s. Good choice. Yeah. Uh, actually I’m from the other lakes from Laman.
[00:36:33] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. Yeah. Nice. So it’s my
[00:36:35] Carlo Piana: beautiful, but my motor biking, I, like 15 years ago I picked up, , track day riding. Mm-Hmm. So I’m, I’m pretty serious now. Nice. Yeah. That’s awesome.
[00:36:44] Chuck Carpenter: Well, you know, when I get over there, maybe I’ll hit you up and you can, uh, take me down that path.
[00:36:49] Carlo Piana: I can, I can give you some,
[00:36:50] Chuck Carpenter: some
[00:36:51] Carlo Piana: advance.
[00:36:51] Chuck Carpenter: Yes. That’s all it takes. Just don’t die. That’s my only wife. My wife’s don’t. Is is a pretty important, it’s a good one, yeah. Yes. It’s a,
[00:36:59] Carlo Piana: it’s kind [00:37:00] of. Rather almost to the top of, yeah. Yeah. Number one goal, don’t
[00:37:04] Chuck Carpenter: dive. And then from there, that’s a goal in most things.
[00:37:07] Chuck Carpenter: Actually I do like to go fast, so I have like I’ve done sports, my advice long time,
[00:37:13] Carlo Piana: but top advice, if you want to go fast, go to the track. Yes. Because that’s a hundred percent you. It’s dangerous control. It’s dangerous. But still in, you can, can, you can figure out and, uh, it’s a control. Basic.
[00:37:27] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:37:27] Chuck Carpenter: What do you have? What’s your bike?
[00:37:29] Carlo Piana: Uh, I have a, for the track, I have a Honda CVR 600. it’s particularly, , tuned and everything. Yeah. Nice. And I have a now, uh, getting old, uh, Kawasaki 1004. Oh, okay. Yeah. I had a Kawasaki
[00:37:45] Chuck Carpenter: drifter that looked like the old Indian, uh, scout. Or Indian, uh, chiefs or whatever had like the plastic fender in the front and stuff.
[00:37:53] Chuck Carpenter: So it was an eight 50.
[00:37:55] Carlo Piana: Mine is a sport tour, so it’s um, it’s a good balance between Yeah, like [00:38:00] multi-sport kind of. Yeah.
[00:38:01] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. Those
[00:38:02] Carlo Piana: are
[00:38:02] Chuck Carpenter: nice.
[00:38:02] Carlo Piana: Very cool.
[00:38:03] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. Alright. I mean, I know you have to get going for a flight, so, uh, yeah. Before we end, is there anything you wanna plug, anything you want people to go check out?
[00:38:11] Carlo Piana: No, no, I’m, I’m so, uh, I’m so happy to have had a conversation with you Yeah. In front of a recently wine. We could do
[00:38:20] Chuck Carpenter: better next time. There are worse wines for sure. Yes. Yeah, it’s
[00:38:24] Carlo Piana: fair. You can be honest.
[00:38:25] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah.
[00:38:25] Carlo Piana: No, that’s good. It’s good, it’s good. And I mean, for the states, it’s over the top. Oh, yes. There you go.
[00:38:32] Carlo Piana: Of, of course. I, I’m quite fond of, uh, Napa wines, especially the wines because they’re very interesting.
[00:38:37] Chuck Carpenter: Yeah. They do some good wines. Yes, yes. With the vines. Don’t have to be crazy old. We do. Okay. Yes. Yeah. Alright, well thanks for, uh, yeah, thanks for coming up. Thank
[00:38:47] Carlo Piana: you for having me. Cool. It was a pleasure.
[00:38:50] Outro: You’ve been watching Whiskey Web and Whatnot. Recorded in front of a live studio audience. What the fuck are you talking about, Chuck? Enjoyed the show? [00:39:00] Subscribe. You know, people don’t pay attention to these, right? Head to whiskey.fund for merchant to join our Discord server. I’m serious, it’s like 2% of people who actually click these links. And don’t forget to leave us a five star review and tell your friends about the show. All right, dude, I’m outta here. Still got it.