Whiskey Web and Whatnot

A whiskey fueled fireside chat with your favorite web developers.


126: Bearded Talks on Beardless Hosts: VSCode Sidebars, AI, and GraphQL with Kelly Vaughn

Show Notes

In this episode, hosts RobbieTheWagner and Charles William Carpenter III invite guest Kelly Vaughn for a casual discussion over a glass of Bardstown Fusion bourbon. The conversation meanders around various topics including podcasting, the concept of artificial intelligence, their favorite Taylor Swift songs, and owning sports cars. Kelly also talks about keynoting the THAT Conference in Texas and shares a preview of her presentation. Keep listening for their hot takes on tech Twitter fights and some humorous discussions!

Key Takeaways

  • [00:05] - Introduction and Hosts' Banter
  • [00:48] - Guest Introduction and Previous Episode Recap
  • [02:00] - Whiskey Tasting: Bardstown Bourbon Company Fusion Series
  • [04:11] - Whiskey Tasting: Flavor Notes and Ratings
  • [08:23] - Discussion on Whiskey Accessories and Sponsorships
  • [16:32] - Hot Takes: AI and Tech Debates
  • [22:49] - Hot Takes: GraphQL and Sidebar Placement
  • [31:44] - Cincinnati Chili Debate and Closing Remarks
  • [33:08] - A Tribute to Skyline Chili Employee
  • [34:20] - Fast Food Preferences and Discussions
  • [35:32] - Fast Food and Road Trips
  • [36:14] - Co-hosts Banter and Jokes
  • [37:05] - Upcoming Conference and Keynote Preparation
  • [39:55] - Car Enthusiast Conversations
  • [57:05] - Taylor Swift Fan Discussion
  • [01:01:15] - Work-Life Balance in Software Engineering
  • [01:02:43] - Closing Remarks and Future Plans


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[00:00:05] Robbie: What's going on everybody welcome to Whiskey Web and Whatnot with your hosts RobbieTheWagner and Charles William Carpenter III

[00:00:14] Chuck: We're also known as the hosts who don't really have beards.

[00:00:17] Robbie: Yes, we used to have a podcast called men growing beards and that has been canceled now because I shaved my beard

[00:00:24] Chuck: Yeah. And I just never really grew one because it doesn't work out so well for me. It looks, it looks embarrassing for a man my age.

[00:00:32] Kelly: Mine doesn't work out very well either. So you're in good company.

[00:00:35] Chuck: So we could start our own podcast. People who can't grow beards.

[00:00:38] Kelly: Bingo.

[00:00:39] Robbie: We'll call it

[00:00:40] Chuck: So, so beardless. I do like smartless a lot. So why not just beardless?

[00:00:46] Kelly: That's perfect.

[00:00:46] Chuck: Yeah. Anyway.

[00:00:48] Robbie: Yeah, our guest today is Kelly Vaughn, as you may have noticed at this point since we've been chatting for a minute what's going on, Kelly? Yeah,

[00:00:58] Kelly: works in my favor [00:01:00] today. You know, I, I always love hanging out with you guys. So excited to do this again.

[00:01:04] Robbie: yeah, yeah, I was surprised that the last one was, like, over a year ago, because it doesn't seem that long, because I think we explained to people that you were on the 100th episode, but then weren't because of technical issues, but,

[00:01:16] Kelly: The 100th episode did not have me on. It's

[00:01:18] Chuck: No, no. You were there in spirit. Like, you know, we were speaking out into the ethereal to Kelly. And she just wasn't there to to respond

[00:01:28] Kelly: I responded, but the episode did not like my responses, so I was canceled out of the

[00:01:35] Chuck: you were very inappropriate and we had to cut you out. This is, let's talk about the reality is that she, she came on, she was already drunk and we're supposed to get there during.

[00:01:45] Kelly: And it was so good that here I am again.

[00:01:48] Chuck: exactly. It is funny though. I do kind of feel like just because we've seen each other and we've spoken in between all of that time. So, alas.

[00:01:57] Kelly: a long time, yeah.

[00:01:58] Chuck: yeah, yeah, not at [00:02:00] all. So, in order to get drunk though, let's talk about the whiskey. We'll talk about the special circumstances that went into you getting yours, but today we're having the Bardstown Bourbon Company Fusion Series.

It is 95. 5 proof, so got a little heat for us there. So by fusion, it means they have blended three different bourbons together. So I'll try and get all these stats. Bear with me.

[00:02:26] Robbie: word.

[00:02:26] Chuck: Yeah, that's what fusion means. It doesn't just mean like, you know, synergy and getting work done or getting

[00:02:34] Robbie: like fission, but less efficient,

[00:02:36] Chuck: Right, it's less explosions, possible death. So, the first one is there's 58 percent of a bourbon that was aged 4 years 75 percent corn, 21 percent rye, and 4 percent malted barley. Then they added 12 percent of a second 4 year bourbon that has 70 percent corn, 18 percent rye, and 12 percent malted barley.

[00:03:00] And then the rest, the remaining, yep, math serves me well, 30%, is a 12 year actually, that has very high CORN, 78% corn 10 percent rye, 12 percent malted barley. So that one, yum, is a interesting, it's an interesting amount of a 12 year to put in there. So I think that's cool.

[00:03:18] Kelly: my favorite part about this blend as well is of the 58 and 12 percent, they came from Bardstown, but the last 30 percent is just from Kentucky.

[00:03:29] Chuck: See? Yeah, yeah. You don't get to know.

[00:03:31] Kelly: Not sure where, but it's somewhere in Kentucky we're getting 30 percent.

[00:03:35] Chuck: Yeah, yeah. Right. So two, they did themselves one, they sourced part of it is this is a newer company, right? So their own distillate. I mean, how are they going to distill for the last 12 years? They wouldn't have a 12 year in order to go to market with that. Hard to say. I'm trying to think like Heaven Hill sells a lot of they they'll sell some stuff that comes out of Kentucky, but not a lot of [00:04:00] distilleries are actually like selling out to other other places.

Heaven Hill has so damn much that they're like, yeah, You can have a little bit.

[00:04:09] Kelly: Please take some.

[00:04:10] Chuck: Okay.

[00:04:11] Robbie: notes of snickerdoodle cookies

[00:04:14] Chuck: Oh my gosh. You know, speaking of cookies, like actually at this co working space, they had like these, they called them cowboy cookies. They look like oatmeal raisin, which I was like, I'm in. And they have a little salt and some nuts and something else in there, like, Rice Krispies or something.

They're pretty

[00:04:29] Robbie: mix cookie.

[00:04:31] Chuck: Yeah, kind of. Yeah, would recommend. So, based on that, I get a little brown sugar, so maybe, you know,

[00:04:41] Kelly: I definitely get caramel in it.

[00:04:43] Chuck: mm hmm. Sweetness, though, it definitely has like sweet.

[00:04:46] Kelly: to it.

[00:04:47] Chuck: Oh, okay, I'm going to use a different another I don't know, metaphor or whatever.

[00:04:51] Robbie: Whoa.

[00:04:53] Chuck: but I do get a little bit. A little bit of, of cola, flat cola.

[00:04:58] Robbie: RC [00:05:00] Cola.

[00:05:00] Chuck: Yeah, like cola syrup, like RC cola, I'll say, because it's a little flatter and has Exactly,

[00:05:05] Kelly: say, it's, to me it's like the the vending machine, like the, the machine cola, or just like the

[00:05:11] Chuck: Just says cola. Yeah.

[00:05:14] Kelly: like, it's just like, the, the, the proportions are off.

[00:05:17] Chuck: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah a lot of that. All right, I'm gonna try I'm gonna first Choose some whiskey

get the palate ready. But yeah on the forward there's already like a bunch of that cola like flavor there Okay, I'm going back for get a little citrus a little maybe it's like nutmeg II

[00:05:56] Robbie: Hmm. Yeah. [00:06:00] Yeah, I don't know, I don't really have descriptors for the taste.

[00:06:04] Chuck: and then on the finish I'm getting a little like piney like a little bit of like a Pine needle kind of.

[00:06:13] Robbie: Mm.

[00:06:14] Kelly: I'm still picking up the sweetness throughout.

[00:06:18] Chuck: That's a good

[00:06:19] Robbie: So it's like a Christmas morning candle. You know, where it's like

It's got some sweetness, and like, Pine tree,

[00:06:26] Kelly: this one called Half Baked Gingerbread Smash when it eventually comes into focus. There it is.

[00:06:31] Chuck: There it is. Oh, okay.

[00:06:34] Robbie: ha

[00:06:34] Kelly: we are, we're drinking the candle. It's fine. Gotta make sure I grab the right one.

[00:06:39] Chuck: I was gonna say, both tasty. One may affect you differently

[00:06:43] Robbie: Yeah.

[00:06:44] Kelly: Yes.

[00:06:45] Chuck: I'll let you decide which one. I mean, I guess they both would affect you in some ways if you were, you know, to ingest both, but I think candle's relatively safe. I just don't think it would taste good.

[00:06:55] Kelly: It's definitely a 95 proof. I can, I can pick up the higher proof for [00:07:00] sure.

[00:07:00] Chuck: Yeah, a little, little warmth there, but it's smooth enough to be like easy to sip. Like, Yeah, this is this is definitely warming up to me. Does anyone feel ready to give it a official tentacle rating?

[00:07:17] Robbie: I'm always ready. Ha

[00:07:18] Chuck: You were born ready? You should, okay, maybe you

[00:07:20] Kelly: ha is it out of five and can we give half?

[00:07:23] Chuck: Well, there are very strict rules around this. You can start at zero, and then there may not have been a zero scale when you were on

[00:07:30] Kelly: Yeah, I don't think there

[00:07:30] Chuck: we just

[00:07:31] Kelly: Was there something that was that bad that introduced a zero scale?

[00:07:34] Chuck: well, we just kind of realized that there's zero base indexing. So like,

[00:07:38] Kelly: Okay.

[00:07:39] Chuck: it's just nerdy stuff.

Yeah, it's just,

[00:07:41] Kelly: it's kind of a five in other people's eyes?

[00:07:43] Chuck: exactly. Depends, you know, it's the fifth item, blah, blah. Yeah, we had this debate about whether octupi or whatever could have more than eight tentacles and the answer is yes, they can, but That said, let's just go with the eight that we know about. I don't know. I mean, there's no strict rules to this.

I think you can go halves if you're feeling it or quarters [00:08:00] and break it down. In whatever way you feel best.

[00:08:04] Kelly: I think I would give this a five. I would enjoy it. It's not going to be the first one I pick out, but I will most definitely drink this.

[00:08:16] Chuck: Well, that's good to know. You're not going to just dump it in the

[00:08:18] Kelly: here now, especially now that I have a second bottle as well.

[00:08:22] Chuck: Yeah. This episode is brought to you by the wine spot. If you live, no, not the shipping spot. They may be, they're full of shipping mistakes, but I feel like I have to give them a little bit of sponsorship because. It might look like you get a second, buy one get one free. Yes, sometimes, we'll see.

But if they give you the wrong thing, then they ship you the right thing, and you keep both, something happens there. They have a diverse selection and they ship to everywhere in the United States and a few other places too, so it's been helpful for us in getting our guests and ourselves the same things.

[00:08:59] Robbie: Yeah.

[00:08:59] Chuck: [00:09:00] bros, brobert.

[00:09:04] Robbie: Yeah, I, I don't know. I like it. I think it feels holiday y, which I like. I'm in that mood right now. So I'm gonna be optimistic and give it a 6. 17.

[00:09:18] Kelly: Okay, love it.

[00:09:22] Chuck: Okay Now you've just gone too far. I'm just saying

[00:09:28] Kelly: You

[00:09:28] Chuck: so I yeah, that's true. I did it like you do the rules whatever you want. There's no rules. We don't care Until you do the wrong thing and then I care see this is what it's like to be my child

[00:09:40] Kelly: This is also how we develop rules in the first place.

[00:09:42] Chuck: Yeah, that's true. Yeah, we're doing it organically over time.

So, I do like it. I think it's a little bit different and I think it's good straight up as is, so that's kind of nice. I think it was like a 60 or 70 price point, so not crazy, especially how this company can have [00:10:00] some things well over that. I think this is very approachable if you're like coming into the brand.

And in a blend like that, so I'm thinking of it and blend it as a blended whiskey, even though they're all bourbons. And for a blend, I'm like pretty impressed with what they've done with it. Keep, keeping it on the cheaper side, giving you some of the effects of a 12 year would have. And it's, it, and it's holiday time.

I agree with a bunch of those notes, so I was, I'm inclined to give it like, six and a half. Yeah. I'm like, was almost kind of thinking seven. Think maybe there's some other things I'd pick instead, but yeah, I'm good with it.

[00:10:38] Kelly: that it's such high proof, if I had my little water dropper, I just like doot doot in there

[00:10:44] Chuck: Mm. Mm

[00:10:45] Kelly: effect for it. And I'd

[00:10:47] Chuck: You got one that makes that? Doop doop.

[00:10:50] Kelly: Daniel's somewhere in the background just going doot doot every time I do it. It's great. I, I would like to try it again with, you know, a little bit of water in it.

[00:10:58] Chuck: Yeah, yeah. [00:11:00] Well, then there you go. It has a lot of potential. So,

[00:11:04] Robbie: I got those like travel things from aged in or whatever.

[00:11:09] Chuck: I sent to her.

[00:11:10] Robbie: they, they sent me a little droppers

[00:11:13] Kelly: Oh, there you go.

[00:11:14] Chuck: Oh, they didn't send. Oh, you got enough stuff. See, I already had some of their stuff. Yeah, I got the bag for carrying bottles and I already have the little travel set that I sent to you, Kelly. That's like, yeah, you got. It is amazing. I have used it a number of times. Highly recommend. If this episode was sponsored by AgedNor, it should be because I definitely would recommend their stuff.

Yeah, I got a travel decanter and that, and like the bottle bag. And for the price, especially, it's really nice. The quality is high. It is nice. The bag, I think, was like 40 bucks or so. That little travel case is like 30 something, like, they're, they're really nice.

[00:11:58] Kelly: bottle caddy is so [00:12:00] cool.

[00:12:00] Chuck: Yes,

[00:12:02] Kelly: I mean, most of the time I just use one of the free wine bags that I got over time, and just kind of like, stuff a few bottles in there. Oh, look at that!

[00:12:10] Robbie: you got red too. I got red cause I thought I would stick out, but now we're just going to match.

[00:12:15] Kelly: you're just gonna stick out together. It's

[00:12:17] Chuck: I, I thought, yeah, yeah, stick out but together. I thought it was on brand. So I just went that

[00:12:22] Robbie: Yeah, that's what I thought too. Yeah.

[00:12:24] Kelly: choice.

[00:12:24] Chuck: Yeah. So anyway.

[00:12:26] Robbie: But yeah, I think we should just start saying that we're sponsored by things, and then just send them bills after the fact, and see who pays it. Yeah.

[00:12:36] Kelly: got crossed somewhere on your executive team, you know, but here's the invoice. Well, we're looking

[00:12:40] Robbie: Yeah.

[00:12:44] Chuck: on, on our, you know, that was an advertising spot and it was about 20 seconds and there's a cost for that. I'm sorry.

[00:12:50] Kelly: We ended up talking for like a minute and so we're going to need a little bit more money.

[00:12:54] Chuck: Yeah, actually, we just upped it. I know your commitment was different, but it really went somewhere. I think there's some [00:13:00] value there. And also, Kelly thanks you for the second bottle. It's very generous.

[00:13:04] Kelly: yes. Yeah, I did get a second bottle and it was the wrong bottle. Which is what prompted me to get a second bottle in the first place. But I'm excited to try the second. I haven't opened it for reasons but once the statute of limitations have passed I will be definitely trying it.

It's from their Discovery series instead of the Fusion series, so,

[00:13:26] Chuck: Yes. You could discover that whiskey.

[00:13:30] Kelly: I will, there will be lots of Discovery.

[00:13:32] Chuck: Yeah. So, I feel like, I don't know, I know that we've tried a different Bardstown on this show before. I don't know if it was the Discovery or a different one, but we tried one. And yeah, I think they've had some, like, interesting stuff there. So I'm just hoping, I don't know, we give it a couple days and YOLO.


[00:13:53] Kelly: I mean, I, I go on vacation next week, so I'll come back from vacation and you just let me know.

[00:13:58] Chuck: Right. Ripper open.

[00:13:59] Kelly: There we go.[00:14:00]

[00:14:01] Chuck: We'll see you in Texas with some samples.

[00:14:04] Kelly: Oh yeah, that means I'd have to, oh, this is gonna be awkward, I'd have to, then I'd have to fly it to Salt Lake City afterwards. Which, frankly, let me, might be a good thing.

[00:14:12] Chuck: Get the Aged in Ore things.

[00:14:15] Kelly: There, there's that sponsorship

[00:14:16] Robbie: tiny ones

[00:14:17] Chuck: Drop that. Yeah, yeah, I mean that's,

[00:14:19] Robbie: ones.

[00:14:20] Chuck: well they have a case of four, like where you can do that or you have the single thing and that is like two, two and a half ounces. I think that's enough to like try something,

[00:14:29] Kelly: absolutely. That's smart. Okay, okay.

[00:14:32] Chuck: See, I'm always thinking ahead. How can I get my next drink?

Do you think that's a problem? Could be.

[00:14:38] Robbie: As long as it's not like in your light fixtures and stuff, it's probably okay.

[00:14:44] Chuck: Okay, fair enough. Yeah, I'm not like chugging rubbing alcohol or something of that nature. Or mouthwash. I think, like, kids in high school would, like, try and chug mouthwash to get drunk. I thought that was

[00:14:55] Robbie: Has a lot of alcohol in it.

[00:14:56] Kelly: It does, but also, no.[00:15:00]

[00:15:00] Robbie: Yeah.

[00:15:01] Chuck: side effect of, I was gonna say, the side effect of minty fresh breath. As a teenager, you know. Are we gonna do any hot takes? Is that, are we going down through this, like, standard road of things?

[00:15:14] Robbie: takes

[00:15:16] Chuck: With Kelly?

[00:15:16] Kelly: Did we not do hot takes last time?

[00:15:18] Robbie: I mean, I feel like we've been

[00:15:19] Kelly: I, like, my entire, like, life is a hot take, so.

[00:15:25] Robbie: yeah, I searched for hot takes in the transcript and did not find anything. So

[00:15:31] Chuck: Well, computers don't lie. Right. Until they want to kill

[00:15:34] Robbie: Well, I only searched for the words, hot space takes. So if we never said that, then I don't know. Let me, let me double check. You can do the first one while I

[00:15:44] Kelly: for

[00:15:45] Chuck: Oh my

[00:15:45] Robbie: And then if we've done it, we'll stop.

[00:15:47] Kelly: spicy takes?

[00:15:49] Chuck: Spicy takes or just like, just search for tailwind. Then you'll know whether you set it or not.

[00:15:55] Robbie: Well, I probably always say Tailwind because sponsored by Tailwind. But,

[00:15:58] Chuck: I wish we could sponsor by team. [00:16:00] Actually, we're spon. Well, we could get sponsored by Style X now.

[00:16:05] Robbie: Well, I don't even know what that is.

[00:16:07] Chuck: It's like you haven't been on Twitter all day or something. Does Callie know what that is? I mean, it's been talked about a couple different times, but yeah. I take most of my, like, real tech evaluations from Dax.

[00:16:22] Robbie: Ooh, Tailwind is not found, so. Yeah.

[00:16:32] Kelly: it is. So I work in AI. I, I work at a video intelligence startup. So I'm all, what can you, how can we make these cameras smarter? How can we, you know. Develop additional business efficiencies and help, like, help companies keep their employees safe, keep their customers safe and. Work smarter, you know, however, I am so incredibly tired of getting emails or DMS or a text. I got today actually, which is a whole nother [00:17:00] can spam. You know, can of spam that I want to open up. I don't believe that we need to AI everything. And I think there is so much value in actually using your human hands for things, because I feel like if you just automate everything via AI, we're going to lose the human touch of where we bring value into things the number of times I've gotten something like, oh, yeah, you can use AI to take care of all of your operations.

So you don't need to think about metrics. You don't need to think about. You know, what your team is doing or anything like that, just focus on getting work done. I'm like, cool. Yeah. And then I'm just going to like, sit back and not care about what my team was doing anyway, because I will just take care of all of it.

It's fine. It's fine. So, it might not be that hot of a take, but like. I feel a little, like, back in my day kind of way about it, you know. I, and I feel like, you know, 20 years down the road, I'll be laughing about myself denying the [00:18:00] desire to use AI for everything. But I just feel like we're trying to AI everything and I just don't like it.

[00:18:07] Robbie: Yeah, what happens when AI gets tired too, right? Like, will, will

[00:18:12] Chuck: It kills you.

[00:18:13] Robbie: that it's sentient enough that it doesn't want to do the work anymore and then try to build, like, AI's AI to do the work for it? And

[00:18:20] Chuck: So you think that self awareness doesn't lead to being like, I am superior to these beings. It leads to,

[00:18:27] Kelly: I'm tired.

[00:18:28] Chuck: bro.

[00:18:29] Kelly: Can someone else do

[00:18:30] Robbie: I think Yeah, it could be both, like I think it would eventually lead to like, why am I listening to humans at all? But I think the interim step, it's like, like when you have a job and you do what your manager says because they're your manager, right? Like,

[00:18:44] Chuck: hmm

[00:18:45] Robbie: that's what AI's gonna do, be like, oh well how can I game the system a little but still do my work, like,

[00:18:50] Kelly: AI

[00:18:50] Chuck: You're revealing. I hope your boss doesn't.

[00:18:52] Kelly: quitting somehow. We're going to, we're going to see it happen.

[00:18:55] Chuck: Right, right. That was a direct. I didn't see that direction coming I was thinking a couple of [00:19:00] things. Well, we have to AI everything because it's the new blockchain, right? Two years ago. It was blockchain every company and that's how you get

[00:19:08] Robbie: blockchain AI.

[00:19:09] Chuck: blockchain AI. Yeah, build a blockchain, but don't actually look or think about what the blockchain is because the computer knows better than you.

Everybody's going to become a prompt engineer. I don't know. They've heard that too. So there's the, there's the other side of it. But yeah, I think one spicy take is just that, like, maybe it's all bullshit to a degree. And it's just a money grab. And some people are doing things of value, but a lot of people aren't.

They're doing some stuff that like, will never get far

[00:19:35] Kelly: And that's the thing. It's like I, working in ai, I can see where the value is. Like I can see when things truly work. I can also see when things do not work at all and you're like, these are some really great if then statements you put together. I can , I've been doing that for a long time. I am also ai.

But no, I mean, there's definite value that you can get using ai. I, I do fear. You know, [00:20:00] bringing AI into healthcare, bringing AI into mental health, for example, there's like, there's a time and place for everything. And I, that's one thing that I'm just, I have a hard time wrapping my head around.

[00:20:13] Chuck: yeah, yeah, that's, yeah, I think there's some really scary places that that could come up that, you know, who knows? But I think that's conversely it is that you don't know what you don't know. And people a hundred plus years ago were really scared of the industrial revolution and its displacement and there was evolution to, you know, have a place for

[00:20:35] Kelly: ago, people were afraid of Y2K as well. So

[00:20:38] Chuck: yeah, there you go for sure.

And that seemed to work out. It might have been longer than that, but I, but I see, I mean, I guess a hundred years ago in the 20s Yeah, exactly. It's when I was born. Before Chuck and after Chuck. There's, that's all there is. Yes. So, That's what you meant, right? Because technically [00:21:00] it was BC. Anything before 77 is BC. This is going well.

[00:21:07] Robbie: It's what is it the that was when they started the epochs epoch epoch

[00:21:11] Chuck: Epochs.

[00:21:12] Robbie: whatever the like the timestamp thing is actually Chuck's

[00:21:14] Kelly: Oh, perfect. Yeah, that's it. That's it.

[00:21:17] Chuck: That's my middle name actually, Epoch. That's the, there was an Epoch and a Tupac and a three, oh. Anyway, Ewok, Wicked Eye, fun side, side side note, there's like a Ewoks movie that was like a made for TV movie in the, like, 1986 or 5 or something like that and all this stuff is on Disney Plus now, so I'm revisiting all these things.


[00:21:43] Robbie: I'll have to check that

[00:21:44] Chuck: remembers, or no, it's super bad, like, because it's made for TV, it's like a real lo fi version of the, you know, technologies they had at that time too. So it's just like, oof,

[00:21:55] Kelly: would make it even better

[00:21:56] Chuck: I don't know. I watched the whole thing and [00:22:00] enjoyed it, I just don't want to recommend it. That's

[00:22:02] Kelly: Got it.

[00:22:03] Robbie: You don't

[00:22:03] Chuck: really where I'm at.

I have nostalgia, and maybe that's enough. For me, but yeah, I don't know.

[00:22:09] Kelly: I mean, I feel that way a lot about a lot of like made for TV Disney movies as well. That are more, you know, AC. After a little bit older, or a little bit newer, I should say.

[00:22:26] Chuck: any of that stuff. You can get sentimentality associated to it. All right. Now's the hard hitting questions though.

[00:22:32] Kelly: Anyone else have a hot take?

[00:22:35] Chuck: Yeah, these are going to be the hot takes. These are the hard hitting questions. These are going to be the hot takes. This is like a hot take. Most of these are based on like Twitter, tech Twitter fights, right?


[00:22:44] Kelly: in those.

[00:22:46] Chuck: no, I, I watch peripherally and then I ask my podcast guests. So it's a way to yes, I'm going to jump to get rebase or get merge.

[00:22:54] Kelly: rebase.

[00:22:58] Chuck: Yeah,

[00:22:59] Robbie: So you do the right [00:23:00] thing. Yeah.

[00:23:04] Chuck: it all they want, but.

[00:23:05] Kelly: That, that'd be a, that would be a short conversation. We rebase end of story.

[00:23:11] Chuck: Yeah, exactly. You have that position of power of like, this is what we

[00:23:14] Kelly: Yeah, except I didn't introduce that they were doing it before. I think, I think they were doing it before I came in. I'll take credit for it though.

[00:23:20] Chuck: Yeah, you should. If they weren't, they would be now. That's all there is. So good for them.

[00:23:27] Robbie: Yeah, the big one that it's not big, I guess, but it's been more recent than some of these is the sidebar on the left or the right and VS code.

[00:23:37] Kelly: I, you know, I'm a creature of habit. That sidebar is not leaving the left side. Sometimes I get a little, you know, crazy one day, and I'm like, I'm gonna move my back dock to the right side, and that is the only thing that I will move. But I am, I am left side sidebar. [00:24:00] Yes,

[00:24:00] Robbie: I would be like more likely to hide it entirely than ever move it to the right.

[00:24:06] Chuck: Yeah, that's as, because it's just a quick button click when you need a little more real estate, you're just like, great.

[00:24:12] Robbie: Yeah.

[00:24:13] Chuck: Yeah. I can dig that. Oh gosh, you took the most interesting question, Robbie.

[00:24:18] Robbie: Well, when you didn't start at the top, I bounced around.

[00:24:21] Chuck: Yeah, yeah. I've taken some liberties. This happens. So was GraphQL Mistake? Mistake?

[00:24:25] Kelly: You know what? Oh, that's a good, that's a good start. I don't think GraphQL is a mistake. I think, I think GraphQL serves a wonderful purpose, but I think, like most technologies, it gets overused and abused in the wrong circumstances. I, I'm going through this right now. You know, our, our entire backend API is built on GraphQL.

And we are in the process of switching over to consuming our own public REST API. Because I think when it comes to, I think a good example is if you're dealing with large volumes of data and you [00:25:00] want to look at logs you're hitting the same endpoint every time for GraphQL. It's going to be slash GraphQL whereas if you're using REST for this, you'll actually get, you know, more detailed data around just the endpoints themselves.

And when you're paying for things like Datadog to index your logs with GraphQL, every single log is going to be different, which means it's going to get really, really expensive. So, from a cost perspective, from a troubleshooting perspective, I, I think we default to using GraphQL because it's so easy to add additional data into your payload either to, to you know, do a mutation or to query and it ends up just being your You know, you're still querying for all this information in the backend anyway, it's just giving you back what you want.

And so it's still often very heavy, especially if you, you know, don't do things like server side pagination. So [00:26:00] I'll just pause there because obviously I have opinions around that one. Mm

[00:26:04] Chuck: Yeah. I think that's a perspective, like a cost perspective. From observe, you know, observability, I think that's the thing I hadn't really thought of, but it probably kind of plays into an interesting point that I saw posted, which was around like you're allowing front end engineers to determine like query payloads and, and and like how fast or slow response comes like on the fly.

And obviously that's kind of, can be an exaggeration, but if they start adding like additional entities into their request, they can quickly be hitting another service that is slow and whatever else, and takes way more time. And you know, that's not really understood. Yeah, it really does. Like there's two sides of that.

It's like, Oh

[00:26:50] Robbie: less stuff to like, I think graph QL had gave us good ideas of like, and the ideas were already there with like Jason API. You could do includes and like [00:27:00] decide what you're going to include and stuff. But like, that didn't really get a ton of adoption until graph QL.

And I think those ideas need to stay around of like, The backend engineer shouldn't have to care if I'm going to use every field in there or not, and like, optimize everything. I should be able to be like, well, I only want these three fields, so I'm just going to request those. Like, I think that idea needs to stay around, for

[00:27:22] Kelly: I agree with that. I, I also would say that the introduction of GraphQL, I feel like made it easier to learn how APIs work in the first place, because it provided a, it provided some much needed comparative context. You know, I remember when I was first learning how APIs worked to begin with when I was trying to understand REST and then trying to understand GraphQL on top of that felt like a lot.

But it gave me a different frame of reference to think about the structure, the architecture of an API. And that's what really had made it click as I've been using [00:28:00] them, you know, without that much knowledge, basically, for many, many years before I actually started learning GraphQL.

[00:28:08] Chuck: Yeah, yeah, I think like the resolver paradigm forces you to look at that a lot, like, yeah, schemas and whatever, yeah, like, that's kind of nice from like a contract perspective of understanding what, what you can and can't get. It's cool that, like, that's exposed, but I think the resolvers are where it's at, like, that is the thing, is getting possibly right into an ORM or another service or this thing and you're like, oh my gosh, yeah, there's a lot that goes into putting all this together.

There's a lot of like, That's computation in a service in general, even as an exposed REST API. But now I'm seeing it right here in the layer that I'm dealing with. Yeah.

[00:28:49] Robbie: Yeah, I think one thing that I see go wrong a lot is people trying, like, it's a good idea, but it doesn't work. Where people try to type the whole [00:29:00] thing from like, The entire, like the GraphQL responses are like your types for your front end and it's like This, this sounds like a great idea until it's not, right?

[00:29:14] Chuck: Yeah. It does force a lot of like overrides through like pick or whatever else on the front end when you aren't necessarily receiving or expecting the same shape as the schema, right? Like, yeah. Good points there. Robbie is a joining Apollo. He'll be a part of the graph QL team and fixing all these issues for you.

Mail him directly. Here's his home phone number.

[00:29:40] Robbie: Yeah, you can hit me up at wagner at apollo. I don't know what the fuck their website is

[00:29:46] Kelly: Solid

[00:29:46] Chuck: I think it should be, I think it's like we are Apollo, but we made this embarrassing thing called meteor dot

[00:29:53] Kelly: it.

[00:29:54] Robbie: Oh, yeah, because that

[00:29:56] Kelly: can also use the acronym, but I don't remember all the letters. [00:30:00] So somebody else can try it.

[00:30:02] Chuck: When I'm drinking water, don't make jokes. Tech jokes. Nerd jokes. Hot take. Nerd jokes. Anyone non tech listening to this podcast currently? Thank you, and I'm sorry that we've lost your

[00:30:14] Kelly: They probably stopped after the whiskey, let's be honest.

[00:30:17] Chuck: they that's true anyone I know that is non tech that you they're like, yeah, I listen to some of the whiskey part and And these are men by the way, I don't know why their voices are like that, but And then I like fast forward and like sometimes to the end because then you guys will talk about something else like Cincinnati chili or something and

[00:30:37] Robbie: Yeah, we've surprisingly talked about Cincinnati chili many times and we're doing it

[00:30:41] Chuck: worth, it's worth talking about. I mean, I, it's, it's like a meat sauce with its own very specific flavoring. I mean, I will continue to advocate for this as delicious Americana.

[00:30:56] Kelly: I'm here for it.

[00:30:57] Robbie: I think it's good.

[00:30:58] Chuck: Okay, fair[00:31:00]

[00:31:00] Robbie: I made some like a couple months back. Cause I made hot dogs and had extra chili and I was like, what do I do with this?

[00:31:06] Chuck: Oh, what was your chili? It wasn't Cincinnati chili.

[00:31:10] Kelly: it just

[00:31:10] Robbie: it was not a good chili.

[00:31:12] Chuck: Yeah, just please tell me it wasn't.

[00:31:14] Robbie: it did. Yes.

[00:31:15] Chuck: okay. It was like Hormel, like chili sauce or

[00:31:19] Robbie: Yeah, yeah, it was like, not great chili, but like, I had a ton of it, cause I, cause my wife doesn't eat meat, so like, I ate like, the tiniest bit of chili, and then like, God,

[00:31:31] Chuck: Oh, okay, but why do you have a ton of

[00:31:33] Kelly: Okay, but I do have an important question. And this,

[00:31:37] Chuck: There's just so many

[00:31:37] Kelly: be a hot take as well, but I am curious since we're already on the topic of Cincinnati Chili, and now I need to, we need to close this out. Skyline Chili or Gold Star Chili?

[00:31:48] Chuck: I mean, there's a

[00:31:49] Robbie: that is the debate that we have

[00:31:51] Chuck: It's not a debate. It's, You're either a fucking tourist, or you know. That's all I can say.

[00:31:56] Robbie: Mmm,

[00:31:57] Chuck: Um

[00:31:58] Robbie: I'm a fucking tourist,

[00:31:59] Kelly: [00:32:00] Skyline all

[00:32:00] Chuck: Every Yeah, yeah. Every tourist is. I grew up, though.

[00:32:05] Robbie: my dad lived there, or lived in the

[00:32:07] Kelly: I grew up in the better

[00:32:07] Chuck: My mom,

[00:32:08] Kelly: be honest.

[00:32:09] Chuck: uh,

[00:32:10] Robbie: Ha

[00:32:11] Chuck: uh, alright, fair enough wait, if you're saying go blue, I feel like you are saying

[00:32:18] Kelly: no, no, the better state is the one above Ohio.

[00:32:23] Chuck: Oh, right, right, so you play Euchre though, right? Okay. Yes. Yeah. We're best friends now.

[00:32:29] Kelly: Now we're best friends.

[00:32:31] Chuck: Now. Yeah. I'll bring cards. Well,

[00:32:34] Robbie: ha ha ha ha ha ha.

[00:32:36] Chuck: honestly, my whole family will be in Texas and my wife is from Michigan. And so you, a Euchre deck will be on hand. I assure you. Okay. Tangential. Anyway, so, I grew up, my mom worked for Gold Star Chili for a little bit.

And so I just kind of grew up on that stuff. So I prefer Gold Star. Dixie is actually the right answer. It was a [00:33:00] trick question. But it's a funny thing. So, a year or two ago, So my aunt, Wilma, Yep, that's her real name. She works for Skyline Chili in Kentucky, but on the riverfront. It's like in, in Covington, right, right on the riverfront.

And she's worked there for 50 years now. And I guess Skyline has some new owners or something else. I don't know. I just got to read the article later that was shared with me. And and the owner's committed to keeping this location open. And they Did a big ceremony for her and her 50 years, you know, reach for the stars.

That's what my family does. They, you know, they want to achieve and and they,

[00:33:38] Robbie: like Skyline.

[00:33:40] Chuck: I don't not like it. I actually would eat it. Like if I need some, some chili, like some Cincinnati chili, like I will have it. Like I would rather that than nothing, but I would rather that than whatever. I would rather have that than whatever came out of your can.

[00:33:55] Robbie: to like, a different, like a

[00:33:56] Chuck: Right, yeah, like, if you were like, okay, here's these fast food burgers, [00:34:00] like, I would rather, I'd rather have Burger King, but I guess I'd eat a Big Mac if I had to, I don't know. Anyway and for her 50 years, and they actually created a day in the city of Covington Wilma Day, and she continues to work at Skyline.


[00:34:17] Kelly: What a fun

[00:34:18] Chuck: yeah, so respect. Yeah.

[00:34:20] Robbie: So speaking of fast food, Potential hot take, why does Arby's have the good burger combo? They are not a burger restaurant.

[00:34:31] Chuck: No, no, they have the meats, they're going with it, we have the meats.

[00:34:35] Robbie: yeah. But like, if I want a burger, the last Like, I would go to Hardee's before I would go to Arby's. And Hardee's is

[00:34:42] Kelly: I'm only going to Arby's for the fries.

[00:34:45] Robbie: Yeah, I love the fries. Yeah.

[00:34:47] Chuck: I've got a hot take. I liked their old fries better. Unless you mean curly fries. And then I like

[00:34:51] Robbie: curly fries.

[00:34:52] Kelly: There are no other fries in my, in my eyes there. That's

[00:34:55] Chuck: Mm hmm. Mm hmm

[00:34:57] Robbie: someone probably orders the non curly fries, [00:35:00] but it's not anyone that I've ever

[00:35:01] Kelly: Someone in the back is like, yeah, somebody finally ordered it!

[00:35:05] Chuck: Yeah, exactly. Whoa, these have been frozen for six years. I finally pulled a handful out. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, something there. Yeah, I don't know that I've ever ordered anything other than like a beef and cheddar or a regular. Like, that's why I'm going there. Like, stay in your

[00:35:23] Robbie: that's good,

[00:35:23] Kelly: I honestly,

[00:35:25] Chuck: like,

[00:35:25] Kelly: I can't remember the last time I went to Arby's, so. We'll start there. I don't even know where my closest Arby's is.

[00:35:32] Chuck: I wouldn't know where my closest one is, but like, you know when you go on a road trip and it's over three hours and you know you're inevitably going to stop at like some kind of fast food place? That's in our list of places we'll go to. Yeah.

[00:35:46] Robbie: Arby's?

[00:35:48] Chuck: Yeah, because they have chicken fingers or something. So I mean you yeah, yeah any place you can do chicken fingers.

It's like that's easy

[00:35:54] Kelly: Oh. The closest one is two and a half miles from my house. That's

[00:35:59] Chuck: pretty close [00:36:00] Robbie would still uber eats that

[00:36:02] Kelly: many times to go to the Chick fil A next to

[00:36:04] Robbie: Oh yeah.

[00:36:06] Chuck: nice given those options

[00:36:08] Robbie: A yesterday. Yeah.

[00:36:10] Kelly: Always good. Always a good option.

[00:36:14] Robbie: What were you going to say, Chuck?

[00:36:15] Chuck: Well, first I had to clear my throat. Na na na na na na na na na, na na na na na na

[00:36:22] Robbie: would go right into it, so.

[00:36:24] Chuck: Well you didn't, you can steal my thunder every once in a while, you know that, right? We're both, we're co hosts, you know, you're not just my sub host.

[00:36:33] Kelly: It's supposed.

[00:36:33] Robbie: But you're the third, so.

[00:36:36] Kelly: Yes!

[00:36:36] Chuck: me third in line. There are three people here, I'm third in line, that's what that means. Kelly's first, you can be second.

[00:36:44] Kelly: Got this. First is the worst, second is the best. I know. We're still there.

[00:36:48] Chuck: right. Listen, if you're not first, you're last. And so, anyway,

[00:36:54] Robbie: I don't know if you wanted to finish your thought, or if I should take it another way, Chuck.[00:37:00]

[00:37:00] Chuck: is it even worth it? I don't even remember what the question

[00:37:02] Robbie: it was. Okay. Doesn't matter.

[00:37:04] Chuck: moving on,

[00:37:05] Robbie: yeah. So you did mention Texas though. So I wanted to bring up we will be at that conf. And is it that conf, that conference? How do you refer to it in like casual

[00:37:14] Chuck: that, you have to yell it, that,

[00:37:17] Kelly: I say that conf. then when I'm explaining it, I'll say is a conference and people get the general idea.

[00:37:26] Chuck: in Texas,

[00:37:27] Kelly: Yes.

[00:37:28] Chuck: not where you

[00:37:29] Robbie: anyway, we'll be there. You'll be keynoting. Do you want to tell us a little bit about what you'll

[00:37:34] Kelly: In order to tell you about what I'll be talking about, I have to tell myself what I'll be talking about and I'm not there yet. So.

[00:37:42] Chuck: mmm,

[00:37:43] Robbie: Well, it has like a title and description, you know, casually what it is unless

[00:37:49] Chuck: She's like, does it? Did Clark just put a placeholder there?

[00:37:53] Kelly: something.

[00:37:54] Robbie: straight through from like the cfp or like Whatever like I think it's just [00:38:00] filled in from like the initial info So it may actually not be what you're going to talk

[00:38:03] Chuck: I don't think keynoters do CFPs. Did you do a

[00:38:06] Kelly: had to fill out the form with like, just like random information just to get it submitted.

[00:38:13] Chuck: Yeah. I would feel like a keynoter is invited and then you

[00:38:17] Kelly: I think it is technically that conference, by the way.

[00:38:21] Robbie: Okay that

[00:38:22] Kelly: conference.

[00:38:24] Chuck: Yeah. Because like the, and I know they're like shifting URLs and stuff, but it was originally that conference. Right. And then it's now it's just becoming that dot us or

[00:38:34] Kelly: Oh, I'm still on that conference. That's fine.

[00:38:37] Robbie: Is that the new website? I never knew which was the new one.

[00:38:41] Chuck: that's I'm also confused, which is, which is

[00:38:43] Kelly: I honestly don't know where I show up as a speaker, so.

[00:38:49] Chuck: It's a big picture. We're not even in the schedule officially.

[00:38:52] Robbie: or something. Hey, I am. Well, not in the schedule, but like, it prominently features me and my

[00:38:58] Chuck: yeah. Fuck off. By[00:39:00]

[00:39:00] Kelly: found myself. Oh, got it. Yeah, it's my turning curiosity into opportunity. There it is. There's the keynote.

[00:39:08] Chuck: I'm curious what that, that opportunity could be Yeah, I totally know it's all mapped out right here, as soon as I type it into AI.

[00:39:22] Kelly: before, which is why I, I do actually know the content, so.

[00:39:26] Chuck: so just Google

[00:39:27] Robbie: Okay.

[00:39:28] Kelly: so, good luck. It's going to be new to, that was evil.

[00:39:33] Robbie: Yeah, well you can actually watch it before you give it because it's like Spaceballs where they've recorded it already, because there's a link on your like that's like watch this on YouTube. I know it's going to be filled in later but like,

[00:39:46] Kelly: Oh, you're right.

[00:39:47] Robbie: you can click it.

[00:39:48] Kelly: It just takes you to YouTube, got it. Okay.

[00:39:51] Robbie: Yeah.

[00:39:51] Chuck: just youtube. com? Find

[00:39:53] Robbie: Mm hmm.

[00:39:55] Kelly: so my, my whole thing is I, I am a firm believer in the fact that everyone [00:40:00] can learn from everyone and you know, more senior engineers, those who are higher up in their, you know, executive levels. Management, whatever you want to be, you can still learn from juniors out there.

So it's important to stay curious, stay open and talk to everybody. And especially for those who are earlier on in their journey, sharing your journey is super important that you should, you shouldn't worry about the fact that somebody else out there put content on there, like, especially 101 content, because everyone learns differently.

Everyone consumes media differently and you're always going to bring unique perspective to it. So that's my, that's my whole pitch. You just got the full, what is it, 45 minutes, hour and a half, some, I don't know. I,

[00:40:39] Robbie: Mm.

[00:40:40] Kelly: I did it in

[00:40:40] Chuck: I hope you, you know, at some point,

[00:40:43] Kelly: the rest will be an open Q& A.

[00:40:44] Chuck: some room. Save your money. Just kidding. Buy the tickets.

[00:40:48] Robbie: Yeah.

[00:40:49] Chuck: Listen, if you want to come and hang out and go down the slippy slide with Robbie, that's worth the price of admission

[00:40:57] Kelly: it's also family

[00:40:58] Robbie: hand out bottles of [00:41:00] whiskey and go down the

[00:41:01] Kelly: so glad that I'm like, it's family friendly. We'll hand out bottles of whiskey. Yes,

[00:41:08] Robbie: make a good point of, I mean, most people listening to this though, probably don't care as much about it being family friendly because we have the whiskey aspect already. So you're probably not listening to this with your kids, but you are right that if anyone is listening to this and does care about that, like I'm bringing my son, Chuck's bringing his kids, like we're going to definitely make it a fun family time.

[00:41:29] Chuck: Also, any parent knows that definitely includes booze. It's just part of it. If you go to a kid's birthday party, there's always booze there. Not for the kids. That's all I'm saying.

[00:41:43] Robbie: Well, in Kentucky, it might be, but

[00:41:46] Chuck: I live in Arizona. It's the Wild West. It's whatever we want. And if you don't like it, they're probably packing.

[00:41:54] Kelly: I'll be in Arizona next year. I might come in and say hi. Maybe compare [00:42:00] Porsche's.

[00:42:00] Chuck: will

[00:42:01] Kelly: I'm probably not taking mine out there, honestly. I'll, I'll rent a

[00:42:04] Chuck: Yeah, you're not gonna drive. Why, why are you gonna be in

[00:42:07] Kelly: going to do another 1 month road trip. Take her, take her take the southern, the southern route this time, so go through New Orleans and Austin and we'll go to Houston and make our way across.

[00:42:18] Chuck: Are you gonna bring the Cayman or are you gonna bring new car? Oh, just rent.

[00:42:23] Kelly: did, I told you we have ended the allocation, right? We gave it up. Okay. Yeah,

[00:42:27] Chuck: Oh, you gave it up. No, you didn't tell me you gave it up. Hmm.

[00:42:32] Kelly: car, but not a Porsche. Because we.

[00:42:37] Robbie: ooh. Controversial.

[00:42:39] Kelly: are very expensive to upkeep, to keep up and when you want to do, you know, 12 track sessions, 12 track days slash weekends a year.

Going through tires and going through breaks and everything and doing the alignment required for it. It's a lot more expensive on a Porsche than say, a Miata. [00:43:00] So we might be a two Miata, two, four family food.

[00:43:04] Chuck: interesting. Okay. Fair enough. Yeah. So wait, you're getting a track car.

[00:43:09] Kelly: one. No, I'm not. He's just, he's just trying to get me to buy a helmet so I go out with him.

Still working on

[00:43:17] Chuck: working on that.

[00:43:18] Kelly: There are a lot of things I'd like to spend my

[00:43:20] Chuck: Well, I recommend.

[00:43:21] Kelly: a helmet.

[00:43:25] Chuck: I mean, Maybe he can buy you a helmet for Christmas and be like, ah, I used to ride motorcycles and I always provided second helmet.

[00:43:35] Kelly: That's the answer. That's the answer. All right.

[00:43:37] Chuck: Yeah, like come ride with me. Let's go here. You're safe.

[00:43:41] Kelly: right. Well, it's now going to be recorded on this podcast. So he will know.

[00:43:47] Chuck: Sorry, Daniel, I should say Because I kind of put that out there in the ether. So I think I owe him a little a little apology around that

[00:43:56] Robbie: spend the money on the car, like what's a helmet?

[00:43:58] Kelly: this is such an, if [00:44:00] you give a mouse a cookie kind of situation, because all right, so we're going to get this track car. It's going to be a stripped out, you know, Miata for tracking, which means it's not going to be a street legal vehicle, which means we're if you buy a track vehicle that you need to tow it somewhere, you're going to need a trailer.

Okay, so now we added the trailer to the mix. Well, if you're going to take a trailer, plus the Miata, plus the things you need to tow, you're going to need a vehicle that can actually tow that much weight. So we're also probably going to be buying an F 150. Absolutely not. We're also going to buy an F 150. And so,

[00:44:35] Chuck: hmm. Why not a cayenne?

[00:44:36] Kelly: can we go back to the,

[00:44:37] Chuck: It's meta.

[00:44:39] Kelly: Actually Cayenne's will pull 7, 700. Pounds

[00:44:44] Chuck: hmm. Yep. I had one for a minute and I have a q7 that pulls 7700 also So both of those would actually meet that requirement And I would throw this out like i've seen a lot of things around Because I mean miata is actually a [00:45:00] pretty desirable marketplace too. So they're not necessarily cheap cars.

They have that. Oh, but they're Yeah, but you know maintenance wise and whatever else like, okay I don't know you might be splitting hairs because I would I would suggest a spec boxster

[00:45:13] Kelly: considering

[00:45:14] Chuck: like,

[00:45:16] Kelly: But then we're getting still getting and that's it again. It's the maintenance side of things So you can you can get a like you think it's it could be cheaper.

[00:45:25] Chuck: I think it can be at least the same. I think there's parody. I think a nine, eight, seven and and especially if you're looking at a Miata, so you're, you don't even need an S so you're fine with, you know, the smaller engine, a nine, eight, seven. I think there's parody there and you, and, and look at like spec boss, spec Boxster builds, there's some really cool stuff.

[00:45:47] Kelly: down a rabbit hole. I don't have that

[00:45:50] Chuck: Yep. You're welcome.

[00:45:51] Kelly: I'm still I

[00:45:54] Chuck: of Bring a Trailer, also. Join the PCA just for buying

[00:45:58] Kelly: I'm, I'm

[00:45:58] Chuck: Join the

[00:45:58] Kelly: in our peach. Actually, [00:46:00] our peach state PCA holiday party is on Saturday and it is a murder mystery party. So.

[00:46:08] Chuck: yours is way cooler than mine. When I was in the Potomac region, that was an amazing PCA group. And I just continued it when I moved to Arizona. But it's a bunch of boomers with, like, Tiptronic that, like, I don't know. They just want to find ways to get, like, cheaper dinners and stuff. And it was,

[00:46:23] Kelly: that's sad.

[00:46:24] Chuck: it's

[00:46:24] Robbie: Don't we all want to get cheaper

[00:46:26] Kelly: I mean, yes, but.

[00:46:27] Chuck: I guess, but I don't want to hang out with them when I get it. Like, they're just not

[00:46:32] Kelly: fun events like one of our events was at the Delta flight museum. We've done all kinds of drives. I saw that. We've done all kinds of

[00:46:41] Robbie: No you didn't.

[00:46:41] Chuck: I've been doing mine on the down low, so.

[00:46:43] Kelly: I haven't actually poured more of mine yet. It's I'm

[00:46:48] Chuck: You're one behind, Vaughn. You're one behind, Vaughn. You better get up.

[00:46:52] Kelly: for more. Maybe, if I can open

[00:46:54] Chuck: alright.

[00:46:55] Kelly: No, I'm still I'm still I'm still holding out for my 964 [00:47:00] 911. Really, really want one.

[00:47:04] Chuck: I mean I know, I, I sent you pictures. I know people. iBoy on the east coast will get you one that is tip top and

[00:47:14] Kelly: not gonna be cheap, and that is why I'm waiting.

[00:47:16] Chuck: they aren't cheap. What, what are you waiting

[00:47:18] Robbie: any kind of Porsche this

[00:47:20] Chuck: Oh, money. Yes. Yes. I was going to say, well, so the, the water cooled market is dipping and we'll probably continue.

And the air cooled market is going to stay. And that's just because of how many they made on one side of the fence versus the other. Like they're making a lot ever since the nine, nine, six generation or even the 97 boxers since boxers and cayennes were released and they started printing money, they made a shit ton.


[00:47:47] Kelly: Yeah, it'll I will it will happen I will get one It's just not gonna be yet because yeah money money is part of it, but garage space is the other part of it I Need more garage space before because that's [00:48:00] the other thing we also need to get garage space for

[00:48:02] Chuck: Throw the me Yeah, throw the meowt out. That's that's what you do first.

[00:48:08] Kelly: Absolutely

[00:48:08] Chuck: Yeah, now you're you're just gonna be getting what it is, is you're gonna start there are actually a couple Atlanta car clubs where you can get like storage space and do all this stuff. And you just start your own. Go get a

[00:48:21] Kelly: Okay. Now we're talking.

[00:48:24] Chuck: Yep. Yeah.

[00:48:26] Robbie: We thought about doing that for a second. We were gonna like, start a new business that converted classic cars into electric cars. And then all of our money went away. So we didn't do that. But

[00:48:36] Chuck: out. And then we were like, how do we just feed our families and pay the rent? Or pay the mortgage, I guess, whatever.

[00:48:42] Robbie: Yeah, having food is nice.

[00:48:44] Kelly: It's nice. It's a concept. Yeah. Actually, that's a fun idea. Just like, by a way.

[00:48:50] Chuck: Eating food? Yeah, me too. Buy a warehouse and use that as like a car club, and that way you [00:49:00] disperse the costs of said warehouse. And then you do cool things like get lifts in it and everything, so that people can

[00:49:06] Kelly: I can set up

[00:49:07] Chuck: on their cars.

[00:49:07] Kelly: like, co working area with a cafe and, oh man. All right.

[00:49:12] Chuck: So now.

[00:49:13] Robbie: under the cars that are lifted up, so you can be a little dangerous while you're doing it? Yeah.

[00:49:20] Chuck: gym where they added a co working space in and then, like, the co working space was kind of elevated and you could watch people climb while you did all your working stuff.

[00:49:30] Robbie: I thought you were gonna say you had to climb to get in there, which would be kinda cool. Like no, non

[00:49:35] Kelly: That's not accessible at all. Exactly.

[00:49:38] Chuck: Yeah, right. I guess you could easter egg that. I don't think you

[00:49:41] Kelly: If any investors out there are listening and want to invest in a really, really smart entrepreneur who is considering buying a warehouse, turning it into a car club, slash coffee shop, slash co working space. Hit me up.

[00:49:57] Chuck: Hit you up. You know, Atlanta is it's [00:50:00] begging for this

[00:50:00] Kelly: Oh, totally. I mean, they exist and then like, there's the car club that is in Braselton by road Atlanta. That 1, I think has a, like, 10, 000 dollar initiation fee. And then you have to pay a couple grand a year. It's limited. There's 1 in Alpharetta that we talked to that has a wait list. There are others as well.

So, yeah, I mean, there's, they all have weight, which means there's room for another 1, right?

[00:50:24] Chuck: There is. Yeah. And you can just spin it for a different market a little bit. Like I know a lot of them are like super bougie. You need somewhere to like store your

[00:50:34] Kelly: mine's going to be like millennial vibe.

[00:50:37] Chuck: yeah. Yeah. Where it's like, you know, It's a, it's a, it's a vibe where you can work too. Cause you're still working. Like you're not some retired, whatever thing.

Yeah. There's one up in Scottsdale that has like a track attached to it and stuff too. And

[00:50:52] Kelly: maybe another time.

[00:50:54] Chuck: It is a really cool place, but yeah, there's like, there's also this other company that like sets up [00:51:00] these like little complexes called toy barns and they're like condos, but they're mostly like all parking space and then a loft space to do whatever else you want.

Yeah. We looked at that for a minute too. I was like, Oh, that would be fun to do that business slash have a working space now. Yeah.

[00:51:15] Robbie: it was expensive though.

[00:51:17] Kelly: I'm gonna, Daniel's gonna come home from his work dinner tonight, and I'm gonna be like, So, here's our business plan.

[00:51:26] Robbie: put the down payment

[00:51:27] Kelly: Remember that time you drove an F 150 home yesterday? So I found another way to spend more money. He wasn't actually buying the F 150. He was doing an extended test drive. But he was meeting me and a friend of mine at a wine bar. And we obviously drove separately. And so I'm driving home in my, in my car.

And I just see these, like, lights that are way above mine. And I'm like, that's not a Miata. What is happening?

[00:51:55] Chuck: yeah, yeah, and you're like, something is going on here. And I'm guessing it wasn't the electric F [00:52:00] 150, so you don't even have that

[00:52:01] Kelly: Nope, not an option.

[00:52:04] Chuck: hm,

[00:52:05] Robbie: I heard that they're actually doing really badly. Like Like on, like every car company that's like a classic car company, like not Tesla, but like everyone else that's made electric cars is like, People don't

[00:52:19] Kelly: Porsche. Taycans are doing

[00:52:20] Robbie: And like,

[00:52:20] Kelly: Yeah.

[00:52:21] Chuck: Except Porsche, oh yeah, they're hotcakes. They like, fly off the shelves, and they're amazing, so.

[00:52:26] Robbie: But I mean like a, like a not

[00:52:28] Kelly: Yeah. Like, the, the everyday Ford. Yes.

[00:52:33] Robbie: Yeah.

[00:52:34] Chuck: Yeah, Kia has a lot now, and then, what's the Genesis is basically Hyundai or something? I

[00:52:41] Robbie: the Ioniq, you mean?

[00:52:43] Chuck: Yeah, so there's

[00:52:44] Robbie: right?

[00:52:45] Chuck: Well, no, Hyundai has their own, but there's like the Oh, Genesis isn't electric, that's just like basically the Lexus of Yeah, fancy Hyundai, like the Lexus

[00:52:55] Robbie: on there, basically.

[00:52:56] Chuck: Yeah, yeah,

[00:52:57] Robbie: And you're like, oh cool, oh that's not a Bentley. Okay.

[00:52:59] Chuck: it's [00:53:00] not. I mean, Ferrari has

[00:53:04] Robbie: So,

[00:53:05] Kelly: Yeah.

[00:53:06] Chuck: LaFerrari. They have kind of a hybrid

[00:53:07] Kelly: Perfect. We'll just pick up a couple of those.

[00:53:13] Chuck: Well, you know, we're dreamlining. I have driven a Ferrari and they are pretty fucking awesome. I, I actually was like kind of cynical about them in general. Like, I don't know, you always hear about how they have like so many issues. Like, oh, if you like a Ferrari, make sure you have two because one's always in the shop.

Blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah, a few years ago in Italy for a day, rented a Ferrari and it was Incredible. It was the 488, 488 Spider and it was awesome. It was like, this is 350, 000, but I understand why. It was like a race car that was like accessible and fun and I don't know. Yeah.

[00:53:56] Robbie: I think it should come with a race car driver. Cause I'm not gonna [00:54:00] be ballsy enough to like,

[00:54:02] Chuck: I was, I was because,

[00:54:05] Robbie: been in your car. Yeah.

[00:54:09] Chuck: know, and I think I was nice to you. I scare some people sometimes just, I don't know. I don't care.

[00:54:14] Robbie: No, I mean, you're, you're like, casual driving mode is still pretty fast and like, passing everyone and you don't, you probably don't think it's intense but,

[00:54:23] Chuck: No, I think that's what people on the west coast drive like. People, because we are like the culture of highways and driving everywhere,

[00:54:31] Kelly: Just get used to it.

[00:54:32] Chuck: just like used

[00:54:33] Kelly: same, same for

[00:54:34] Chuck: yeah, yeah.

[00:54:35] Kelly: My, my vehicle goes fast and I have to pass people because everyone drives slowly. That's their problem

[00:54:42] Chuck: I think, and I also think that like speed and power is a safety feature. Actually, I tried to

[00:54:47] Robbie: it is,

[00:54:48] Chuck: to like, folks who were like, I don't know, I was like, no, my ability, yeah, my ability to like, whip around people and put myself in a better position is actually a safety

[00:54:58] Kelly: it has most [00:55:00] definitely been, it been put to use before.

[00:55:06] Robbie: yeah. Yeah, I've been unfortunately driving my dad's 2007 BMW to work because we just have the Tesla and my Bronco that I'm not gonna drive. So, yeah, I've gotten used to, like, the Tesla being able to just go where I want at, like, whatever speed I want and the BMW with no sensors for backing up or anything and, like, it's just a different world.

I'm like, I don't know how to drive at

[00:55:30] Kelly: That's honestly 1 of my biggest fears is we learned how to drive without all this technology in our vehicles. That's not a thing anymore.

[00:55:42] Robbie: Yeah.

[00:55:43] Chuck: cause like, no matter, like, when I learned to drive, the biggest barrier was like, Oh, you should drive a manual because it just forces you to be a little more connected to how fast you're going to go and everything else. So it's like, okay, but now there's so much assistive technology. [00:56:00] That's why people can be like this.

I can't tell you how often I'm on the highway and somebody is like, like

[00:56:08] Kelly: Nothing.

[00:56:10] Chuck: I want autonomous cars just because that's

[00:56:12] Kelly: nothing teaches you how to drive a manual more than learning on a manual without hill start assist and living

[00:56:22] Chuck: Mm hmm.

[00:56:23] Kelly: area. It's a great way to learn. There was 1 point where I literally put my ebrake on and got out of my car when I was still relatively early on in my learning how to drive a manual because a woman pulled in behind me in a parking lot on a hill and she was really, really close to me.

I'm like, look. I'm going to roll back. I do not want to hit your car. Please move back. Of course, people are not going to be like, Wow, no, figure it out. They're going to roll back because they don't want you to hit their car.

[00:56:51] Chuck: Yeah. Yeah, you're saying this is what's happening. This is the

[00:56:54] Kelly: I swear I'm doing the best I can,

[00:56:55] Chuck: don't want to hit you Yeah, yeah, I'm gonna need a little [00:57:00] leeway lady. Thank you. That's pretty fun.

[00:57:05] Robbie: So I do want to touch on you are in the top 1 percent of Taylor Swift listeners. What are what are your favorite songs? Like, what do you

[00:57:16] Kelly: I actually listened to the, this is Taylor Swift playlist on shuffle. So it's constantly something new. No, something new. I don't let me, let me say, I don't generally pick what I'm listening to. It just happens. But all too well. It's my all time favorite. Taylor Swift's song, All Too Well, 10 Minute Version, just made it even better.

I found that running or just generally working out to All Too Well, 10 Minute Version is amazing because by the time you're done with it, 10 minutes has gone by. It's like, okay,

[00:57:49] Chuck: I like that I like being distracted when I'm exercising, especially like when you're doing those distance like I'm gonna ask a question. Don't be offended [00:58:00] All too well, is that the one that's the Jake Gyllenhaal song? Okay. Yeah, yeah, I remember when like it was like a hoopla about that the 10 year or whatever anniversary of it and then it kind of resurfaced I'm a more of a passive Taylor Swift fan.

Like I like I actually think she's very talented. I enjoy the things I don't really ever seek it out. But when it's happening, I'm like, yeah, I like this. I watched the documentary

[00:58:27] Kelly: of people don't, like, there, you know, a lot of people think of Taylor Swift as the, the, the woman who writes a bunch of breakup songs, and that's it. But you don't become a billionaire and literally have an impact on the global economy by just writing a bunch of breakup songs. But people will find anything to just, like, push any kind of female talent down in general. So,

[00:58:52] Chuck: Oh, you're a pop star, so I don't give a shit, and I marginalize, I lob you in with folks that are more manufactured, but that's what [00:59:00] I loved about watching that documentary, is that you get a real, like, sense of her process, and like, a look into, like, she's a real artist, like, soup to nuts, she's doing the whole thing, she has a lot of input, it's her whole life, and like, I respect her in that way, like, much like when you look at folks like Ed Sheeran, and, you know, Uh, uh, what was his name?

John. John Mayer. John Mayer is also like a real musician and a real, like he really like looks at all and maybe that's

[00:59:34] Robbie: Fun fact about John Mayer, you have to apply to get his amplifier. Like, the amps he uses, you can't just buy them. Like, they only sell them to people they deem worthy. Anyway, go on with your

[00:59:47] Chuck: Interesting. No, I had no idea. You found yourself interested enough to try and get one of those? I had no idea. I know he is a sneakerhead. I know he is very funny. I know like some of these other things about his like personality, but I know, know that [01:00:00] he's like a true musician that like cares about the craft and the nuance of it all.

And I see like Taylor Swift in, in that same vein

[01:00:08] Robbie: Mm hmm.

[01:00:08] Chuck: of like,

[01:00:09] Kelly: of the Year. It's a fantastic article, by the

[01:00:14] Robbie: Yeah.

[01:00:15] Kelly: I learned today that she started preparing for the Eras Tour six months prior. At least six months before it started. And what she did, she ran every day and sang her entire track list. Which, by the way, it's a three hour show.

And she would run during the fast songs and do a fast walk during the slow songs just to make sure that she had enough endurance

[01:00:37] Robbie: was running while singing?

[01:00:39] Kelly: just to build up her

[01:00:40] Robbie: Oh my god.

[01:00:41] Chuck: Wow.

[01:00:42] Kelly: be able to perform for 3 hours straight. Yep,

[01:00:50] Chuck: well, what if he had a code running or something like that? I don't know. I love, I love when people are like intensely like married to being as [01:01:00] good as they can at their craft. Right. And I do think that that's somewhat like, so we talk a lot, we've talked a lot in our, our About like software engineering in general, like an art craft of things.

And it can be a craft and it can be a job. I actually think it can kind of be both and be successful across the board because like people who can write code and make things are useful to tons of industries, tons of companies and whatever else. And they're going to need people who punch in and out and still do a good job.

And then conversely, you have folks that are just like. They're intense and they're dedicated and they're whatever else. I feel like there's a, like a bit of that as well. And neither are the right answer, right? Is it a work life balance? Great. That's what works for you. People should hire people like that who want to be, you know, an engineer, senior engineer for the next 10 years of their life.

Like that's super valuable too. You don't need a [01:02:00] unicorn who's written. 35 articles and does a bunch of speaking and all like that's not the only person you need.

[01:02:09] Kelly: and also your team would likely be very homogenous as well. And there, I feel like there'd just be a lot of competition.

[01:02:19] Chuck: I might start to create that because I think that like if that's the person as part of a team Who's kind of set that standard you feel like oh, well They're heralded so often like that's the only way i'm gonna be good at my job. Oh shit. Yeah. Sorry life But

[01:02:36] Kelly: life. And on that note

[01:02:41] Chuck: you know

[01:02:41] Robbie: All right. Yeah. Speaking of life it is time for dinner for me. So, is there anything you want to plug or mention

[01:02:48] Kelly: Check out my newsletter lessons and engineering leadership. I send a now weekly newsletter. I went from bi weekly to weekly. It's pretty great. You can read it in under 5 minutes because we're all busy and I'm also busy [01:03:00] and I write something quick. And you can find it at engleaders engleadership dot X, Y, Z.

I'm pretty sure I also like lessons and engineering leadership and other various domains, but. I use leadership dot X, Y, Z.

[01:03:14] Chuck: I'm a subscriber

[01:03:19] Robbie: Cool. Thanks everyone for listening. If you liked it, please subscribe, leave us some ratings and reviews. We appreciate it and we will catch you next time.

[01:03:27] Chuck: Boom boom boom.